Post: #1

I don't know why I am surprised about this, but this article seems to accurately nail the point of view of the common American Mangina ™ and many of the problems with today's sexual market:

Wall Street Journal Wrote:By more than two to one, men say that it is harder to be a man today compared with their father’s generation–and a number of the reasons focused on changes in their relationships with women.

Eighty-five percent of men say they are clear in their role in society today, but 45% say it is harder to be a man today compared to their father’s generation, while just 20% say it is easier to be a man today (35% say it is no easier or harder). For those who say it is harder to be a man, a number of the most common reasons stem from changes in relationships with women, including that women are in a stronger position in the workplace and financially; men are taking on a greater share of household responsibilities; and more demands are being placed on men.

Funny that no one should mention the obesity epidemic and the looming threat of divorce rape. I'd gladly wash dishes all day if I could be safe from that.

Wall Street Journal Wrote:These blurred lines and conflicted feelings about relationships with women are present in another way. Men were asked to select from a list of 10 terms the two or three qualities they deem most important in a wife or female partner. From the same list, they were asked to identify the most important qualities in their daughter when she grows up.

- Intelligence topped the list for a wife or female partner at 72% and for a daughter at 81%. But the ranking of qualities on both lists diverge after this, sometimes with wide gaps.
- While 45% of men consider being attractive one of the most important qualities for their wife or female partner, just 11% said so for their daughter.
- Similarly, 34% specified being sweet as a key quality for a female partner, but just 19% said the same for a daughter.
- Conversely, men are much more likely to cite being independent (66% for daughter; 34% for wife/female partner) and strong (48% daughter, 28% wife/female partner) as most important qualities for a daughter.

The what-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg has been explained. The degradation of the sexual market is driven not just by women, but also by hordes of thirsty, brainwashed manginas encouraging their daughters to become ugly tatted-up skanks.

Wall Street Journal Wrote:

Reading the survey as a whole, the qualities that men want most in a daughter–intelligent, independent, strong, and principled–are the qualities that help women thrive in the workplace. But this, in turn, is what men say has made it harder to be a man today.

Gluttons for punishment? Men agree that they have it worse, but they also want more of it?

Quote:This is just one of the insights from a recent Hart Research Associates poll for the Shriver Report Snapshot: An Insight Into the 21st Century Man. The online survey was conducted among 818 men 18 and older.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/04/23.../?mod=e2fb

I can only hope that the 818-person anonymous internet sample makes this invalid, otherwise things are irreversibly fucked for our society.

   

Post: #2

Wife/partner
1. Sweet
2. Attractive
3. Nurturing

Daughter (If I wanted her to have an easy life)
1. Attractive
2. Sweet
3. Intelligent

Post: #3

Most men here would probably agree with the preferences on wives' traits: intelligent, attractive, sweet (though not necessarily in that order). The only surprise there, to me, is that "nurturing" isn't higher on the list.

My guess as to why the daughters' traits fall on the more "empowering" side:

1) Projection. Men want to be (and admire men who are) intelligent, strong, principled, and independent. They likely strive to raise their children to embody these properties, regardless of sex. Even more so if they lack sons, and, brainwashed into thinking women are simply men sans penises, end up directing masculine energy towards their daughters.

2) Protection. Men know how men think about attractive women, and no father wants to think about other men thinking about his little girl in that way. Fathers want their daughters to be happy, and in a world with as vicious a sexual market as ours, I imagine most blue-pill dads would prefer their daughters succeed on their own than leave their fates in the hands of other men.

There might also be an implicit assumption of naïveté on the part of women perceived as sweet, feminine, nurturing, etc. Think the girl next door who falls for a player only to get pumped-and-dumped and have her heart broken. Most fathers would rather her be "strong" and "independent" in order to prevent her from being played.

This results, of course, in women less likely to find a man, have children, be happy in the long-term, etc. But most of the men raising these women barely understand the opposite sex, so I'm not surprised to see these sorts of answers in a poll like this.

Post: #4

As the father of a teenage daughter, that's a tough poll to ask guys to take. You think fundamentally differently about your wife and your daughter. It is tough to force your mind to "go there" in respects to your daughter. You really want your daughter to have all of those qualities and the ability to do what makes her happiest and the wisdom to figure out what that is. I think if I took the poll, I might have different answers for my wife and my daughter, but Independent and Strong wouldn't make the top of the list. There are a lot of great qualities listed there that are much more useful in life than "Independent".

I would also venture to guess that even in an anonymous poll, men will feel a pull towards the answers they are "supposed" to give. If a dad thinks it is important that his daughter be attractive and sweet these days, he is CREEPY OMG I CAN'T EVEN YOU GUYS.

Post: #5

Traits I'd value in a daughter:

- Cuteness, so I can easily find someone to adopt her.

Post: #6

Characteristics I'd prefer of a daughter:

1) Unconceived.
2) Aborted.

Post: #7

In his 1997 review of Wendy Shalit's book "A Return to Modesty," the Father of the Manosphere F. Roger Devlin noted that women rank "a sense of humor" among the top traits they seek in men.

But...he, notes, when women make that claim, they're already picturing a man who fits a lot of their other unspoken criteria (handsome, successful, tall, etc.). So while it's not a lie, it's not really the truth, either.

In this survey, I think men are engaging in a similar unconscious self-deception.

Men are claiming intelligence as the top trait, but they're picturing that intelligence wrapped in a frame like that of Christina Hendricks, not a woman who looks like the one who plays Molly on the TV show "Mike and Molly."

When all is said and done, if you hooked married men up to a polygraph and asked what quality they first noticed in their wives (and continue to notice), my guess is the answer would not be "her brain."

Post: #8

My wife is pregnant with our first (of hopefully many) kid, a girl. Every night during our time praying together we pray for our daughter to have a pleasant, gentle, and respectful demeanor.

We both know that raising a strong and independent woman is the most effective way to not ever become grandparents.

Post: #9

And these are the men who are descendents of the men who gave women the right to vote. Bad parenting is at the core of American degeneration.

Post: #10

I don't think you can really trust this poll and the results. When it comes to this type of political issue people are really tuned into what they are supposed to say and how it will be perceived. Even anonymous online polls are susceptible to these chilling effects of PC culture and correcthink.

Post: #11

(04-26-2015 05:15 AM)Troll King Wrote:  I don't think you can really trust this poll and the results. When it comes to this type of political issue people are really tuned into what they are supposed to say and how it will be perceived. Even anonymous online polls are susceptible to these chilling effects of PC culture and correcthink.

I concur to a point; Guys will say, to a point, what they want out of their woman.

They will say what they want for their daughter whatever fits the current landscape. While not making her a whore.


Kinda getting difficult these days. They just word the questions to make it easier.

Post: #12

(04-26-2015 05:42 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

(04-26-2015 05:15 AM)Troll King Wrote:  I don't think you can really trust this poll and the results. When it comes to this type of political issue people are really tuned into what they are supposed to say and how it will be perceived. Even anonymous online polls are susceptible to these chilling effects of PC culture and correcthink.

I concur to a point; Guys will say, to a point, what they want out of their woman.

They will say what they want for their daughter whatever fits the current landscape. While not making her a whore.


Kinda getting difficult these days. They just word the questions to make it easier.

What turned millions of girls into useless whores is going off to college.
My daughter, when the time hits, is staying home and going to college locally.

Post: #13

There's a heavy white-knight/cockblocker bias in this poll. You're a goddamn idiot if you don't want your daughter to be attractive--especially when the poll gives them the choice of a second trait to add to it. I might understand if you had to pick only one, but even then. That column should say 200 percent.

That means you're either too dumb--or too much of a coward about the "icky" feeling it stirs up--to understand the massive benefits of the halo effect. Combine that with some degree of intelligence and you have a winner at the game of life. Attractive girls get access to resources and opportunities that an average or busted chick don't even know exist. They're more likely to get hired at that prestigious job or get the higher grade that puts them in the elite college. Attractive girls get taught things for free ("Don't worry about lessons, I'll teach you how to dance tango!") and favors done for them ("I have a truck, I can help you move!") that further frees them up and make them well-rounded ("I'll help you practice French; I lived in Paris for 4 years!"). They're way more likely to get invited to gatherings and events where truly quality guys go ("I have an extra ticket to this charity benefit in Tribeca!"). These are the kind of guys who can wife her up and further enhance her comfortable life--not a bunch of part-time DJs or low-end frat dudes. Add her own intelligence and motivation for independent pursuits to the equation, and this type of girl is basically born on third base.

In fact, attractiveness works in a similar way for good-looking dudes--though the metrics are different. Every guy here knows that being 5'3" as a male is like walking around with two-and-a-half strikes through life. On the other hand, being 6'3", with a decent head of hair, and a defined jaw line is like having all the cheat codes to the video game.

Money, jobs, and pussy rain down from the sky for a tenth of the effort. That's exactly why you don't take game advice from guys like that.

(@0:27)

Post: #14

To second Tuth, we all know the chubby girls are the one who sleep around more because they feel sexually inadequate without a steady supply of dick

Post: #15

(04-26-2015 02:18 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  You're a goddamn idiot if you don't want your daughter to be attractive--especially when the poll gives them the choice of a second trait to add to it.

...

[Truth]

Post: #16

(04-24-2015 01:03 PM)Kabal Wrote:  Characteristics I'd prefer of a daughter:

1) Unconceived.
2) Aborted.

LOL. You're funny.

Post: #17

(04-26-2015 10:00 AM)rpg Wrote:  What turned millions of girls into useless whores is going off to college.
My daughter, when the time hits, is staying home and going to college locally.

Very insightful.

Post: #18

(04-24-2015 01:03 PM)Kabal Wrote:  Characteristics I'd prefer of a daughter:

1) Unconceived.
2) Aborted.

I don't believe having a daughter is such a bad thing really as long as you raise her in a stable family environment.

A son has way more base potential in the world but given all things equal (good parenting) it doesn't matter that much. As a red pill father the advantages are you'd be able to identify the social problems. You'd know immediately what it's about if she's straying far off the right path and if there are issues to deal with it.

The problem is when very beta guys have hot daughters. They can be either too strict or too permissive. They just don't know how to handle the opposite sex which ends up in disaster. They are also willfully blind about their own daughter's behavior and pedestalize their own female children just like they did women their entire life.

This all ends badly, red pill guys should know better.

Post: #19

With an attractive daughter, the dowry that I'd have to pay for a man to take over her governorship would be lower.

I'd therefore be able to invest more time in my sons with the knowledge that hypergamy means that they need to be at least +2 SMV points more than my daughter so that their resultant families can be socially equal to that of my hypothetical daughter.

Post: #20

A while back someone around here proposed the idea that dominant (high testosterone) fathers are more statistically likely to have sons, while less dominant fathers are more likely to have daughters. Supposedly, this ties in to women being more genetically resilient (two X chromosomes vs.X and Y), as well as women more likely to reproduce than (non-dominant) sons of non-dominant men.

I can't find the original.

Does this have scientific merit?

Data sheet maps

Post: #21

No.
If a father only has sons or only has daughters, and it runs in his family (no sisters or aunts on dad's dad side), then that is genetic.
Otherwise it's a toss up.

Post: #22

(04-27-2015 10:23 AM)polar Wrote:  A while back someone around here proposed the idea that dominant (high testosterone) fathers are more statistically likely to have sons, while less dominant fathers are more likely to have daughters. Supposedly, this ties in to women being more genetically resilient (two X chromosomes vs.X and Y), as well as women more likely to reproduce than (non-dominant) sons of non-dominant men.

I can't find the original.

Does this have scientific merit?

There's a book, Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters, that discusses this.

The notion that individuals of lower status and/or fitness may have more daughters and those of higher status and/or fitness more sons, as females have low variance and males high variance in reproductive outcomes, is known as the Trivers-Willard Hypothesis.

The "scientific merit" is mixed.

Post: #23

(04-26-2015 07:40 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 01:03 PM)Kabal Wrote:  Characteristics I'd prefer of a daughter:

1) Unconceived.
2) Aborted.

I don't believe having a daughter is such a bad thing really as long as you raise her in a stable family environment.

A son has way more base potential in the world but given all things equal (good parenting) it doesn't matter that much. As a red pill father the advantages are you'd be able to identify the social problems. You'd know immediately what it's about if she's straying far off the right path and if there are issues to deal with it.

The problem is when very beta guys have hot daughters. They can be either too strict or too permissive. They just don't know how to handle the opposite sex which ends up in disaster. They are also willfully blind about their own daughter's behavior and pedestalize their own female children just like they did women their entire life.

This all ends badly, red pill guys should know better.

Daughters are like writing an option: if things go well, it's not too bad. If things go poorly, they go really poorly.

Sons are closer to buying an option: if things go well, it's a huge pay-off. If things not so well... oh well.

I like positive convexity; a best case of "not too bad" doesn't strike me as too tantalizing, when that best case also comes with a lot of potentially really bad cases. If it's the choice of son or daughter, I'm going to choose son every time.

That's the one benefit of marriage I see: Having the opportunity to plan a kid, and leverage technologies like preimplantation genetic diagnosis to guarantee sons.

It's easy to write-off bad daughters as the result of blue pill fathers or broken families, and I'm sure these things contribute disproportionately to the population of awful daughters, but the reality is that there are tons of daughters from good families who engage in behavior that would make me consider Titus Andronicus'ing a hoe. There's a non-trivial degree of luck.

Of course, I'd prefer if everyone had more daughters to make it better for my sons.

And, of course, I'm sure this means I'm going to have a bunch of daughters out of wedlock.