Post: #76

Meanwhile at CNN.com, in size 300 font:

Post: #77

(03-26-2015 01:55 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

Quote:Robin said he was sure Lubitz was conscious, since the audio on the cockpit voice recorder has him breathing normally throughout the 10-minute descent into the mountains, until the moment of impact. But pilots are not convinced that the breathing sounds meant he was able to open the door to Sonderheimer. “Was he conscious? Could he open the door?” Phillips asked. “The prosecutor did not provide answers to that.”

Not sure what to make of that statement. If the guy was conscious and hurtling towards the ground at 500mph, knowing he was about to die and murder 160 innocent people in the process, I'd imagine his breathing wouldn't be "normal." He'd probably be hyperventilating like a motherfucker.

On the other hand, if he was unconscious and blissfully unaware of the impending fireball, then he may well have been breathing normally. But this is all speculation, we have no idea what kind of breathing patterns they heard in the black box, or even if the French civil servant used the correct semantics when he labeled the breathing as "normal."

Until the flight data recorder is located some of these questions will be hard to answer. As long as the state of the lock switch inside the cockpit is recorded than it will show if it was moved from Normal to Lock after the change was made in the autopilot.

All breathing aside, it's difficult to explain why the copilot would change the autopilot to descend to 100 feet in the mountains if he wasn't looking to destroy the aircraft. I'm hoping like everyone else that somehow an extremely unlikely event could have incapacitated the copilot, locked to door, and also changed the decent rate and altitude of the autopilot without affecting other systems. It certainly has not happened before.

I've read in a pilots forum that the transponder of the Airbus was pinged for complete data when the pilots did not respond. This caused a dump of not just airspeed and heading like usual but included the autopilot information as well. This is why they knew, most likely before the plane even crashed, that this was most likely intentional. They just didn't know who had made the autopilot change.

Post: #78

I can't believe it. I would have never guessed that the pilot did it intentionally in a million years. Fucking coward.

Post: #79

(03-26-2015 10:22 AM)Engineer Wrote:  

Quote:This is very very strange. When a pilot goes to the bathroom a flight attendant goes into the cockpit. The flight attendant is there to open the door in case the other pilot has a medical emergency.

In the US yes, but apparently not in Europe.

People are looking at single pilot ops and even zero pilot ops to reduce operating costs. It's a political issue not a technical one. I know for a fact that people are working on future pilot ops that include the possibility of taking control away REMOTELY from a malicious or incapacitated single pilot.

I was surprised to learn there is an emergency approximately every month that incapacitates a pilot to the degree that a second person in the cockpit is required to assist. I was told this verbally in passing 2 years ago so experts please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

I would think that a plane would have some mechanism that would automatically pull up if on a collision course with a mountain.

When you think about it, these passengers were victims of post-9/11 policy. Prior to that, cockpit doors were flimsy and it would've been easy for the pilot to kick through it if he's locked out. The impenetrable doors are a terrorist deterrent.

As tragic as this is, commercial airline pilot suicides are exceedingly rare incidents. We should be careful about going overboard with "what's wrong with our society" commentary when you're dealing with a 1 in 10 million incident.

Post: #80

(03-26-2015 03:13 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  As tragic as this is, commercial airline pilot suicides are exceedingly rare incidents. We should be careful about going overboard with "what's wrong with our society" commentary when you're dealing with a 1 in 10 million incident.

The conditions have changed. Now with the reinforced cockpit door it is possible for a depressed pilot to take this way out. Maybe they didn't do it before because it was considerably harder to do. But now every depressed pilot knows it is an option. So will this become more frequent? Also, we still don't know what happened to Malaysia 370 flight where pilot sabotage was suspected but with no evidence because the plane was never found.

The surprising frequency of pilot suicides

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morni...-suicides/

Post: #81

Delete

Post: #82

The "security system" whereby a pilot can be locked out by pressing a simple button inside the cockpit is as absurd as it can be. Any kid can recognize the danger: a pilot with criminal plans can just go ahead and do what he wants.

That lock button is a technical absurdity that was introduced after 9-11. Either replace this system or remove the cockpit door altogether to increase the passengers' safety.

Post: #83

(03-26-2015 05:00 PM)michelin Wrote:  The "security system" whereby a pilot can be locked out by pressing a simple button inside the cockpit is as absurd as it can be. Any kid can recognize the danger: a pilot with criminal plans can just go ahead and do what he wants.

That lock button is a technical absurdity that was introduced after 9-11. Either replace this system or remove the cockpit door altogether to increase the passengers' safety.

Or simply doing what the US does and requiring a flight attendant to go into the cockpit while one of the pilots is in the bathroom. If they had this rule, this never would've happened. I suspect this policy will now be implemented worldwide.

Post: #84

(03-26-2015 05:04 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 05:00 PM)michelin Wrote:  The "security system" whereby a pilot can be locked out by pressing a simple button inside the cockpit is as absurd as it can be. Any kid can recognize the danger: a pilot with criminal plans can just go ahead and do what he wants.

That lock button is a technical absurdity that was introduced after 9-11. Either replace this system or remove the cockpit door altogether to increase the passengers' safety.

Or simply doing what the US does and requiring a flight attendant to go into the cockpit while one of the pilots is in the bathroom. If they had this rule, this never would've happened. I suspect this policy will now be implemented worldwide.

Two major Canadian airlines implemented this policy this morning. I am surprised we didn't already have it here.

Post: #85

What a coward this co-pilot. Stories like these really piss me off. Just imagine all these innocent passengers trusting this asshole to fly them safe only for this to happen. Sometimes you don't even know who is behind that wheel.

This is pretty much a terrorist act to me. Calling it a suicide is letting this guy off easily. Suicide is when a person provokes his own death. But when you take away your life and the lives of 150 people along with you and create a state of tension in society, its pretty much terrorism.

Post: #86

(03-26-2015 05:24 PM)MidWest Wrote:  What a coward this co-pilot. Stories like these really piss me off. Just imagine all these innocent passengers trusting this asshole to fly them safe only for this to happen. Sometimes you don't even know who is behind that wheel.

This is pretty much a terrorist act to me. Calling it a suicide is letting this guy off easily. Suicide is when a person provokes his own death. But when you take away your life and the lives of 150 people along with you and create a state of tension in society, its pretty much terrorism.

I wouldn't call it terrorism. The point of terrorism is to persuade people by fear of violence for religious or political reasons. Terrorism has ideological purpose behind it. They have demands they want met.

It wasn't merely a suicide because he took so many with him. But calling it a murder doesn't quite fit either because I don't think he even thought about the people in the back of the plane. It's as if they were just cargo that happened to be there. Whereas murder or even murder-suicide usually involves feelings of aggression toward your victim. I'm willing to bet that if that was an empty plane and he was the only one flying it, he'd have done the same thing. Of course we'll never really know since all the witnesses to the deed are dead.

I'm not sure what to call this type of act.

Post: #87

(03-26-2015 05:35 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  I'm not sure what to call this type of act.

Mass manslaughter?

Post: #88

(03-26-2015 11:48 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  Is it possible he had an epileptic fit or something while the pilot was going to the bathroom and the pilot ended up locking himself out of the cockpit?

Does the cockpit door auto-lock when it closes or do you have to deliberately lock it?

If they are able to hear normal respirations on the flight recorder it would be apparent that something was amiss if he had a grand mal seizure. As a side note, don't be the guy that shoves random shit into the mouth of someone you find seizing... They are not going to swallow their tongue and you are possibly occluding their airway.

Post: #89

(03-26-2015 05:35 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  I'm not sure what to call this type of act.

Elliot Rodger. James Scott Newman (pine school shootings). George Sodini.

Who wants to bet with me?

Post: #90

(03-26-2015 05:35 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 05:24 PM)MidWest Wrote:  What a coward this co-pilot. Stories like these really piss me off. Just imagine all these innocent passengers trusting this asshole to fly them safe only for this to happen. Sometimes you don't even know who is behind that wheel.

This is pretty much a terrorist act to me. Calling it a suicide is letting this guy off easily. Suicide is when a person provokes his own death. But when you take away your life and the lives of 150 people along with you and create a state of tension in society, its pretty much terrorism.

I wouldn't call it terrorism. The point of terrorism is to persuade people by fear of violence for religious or political reasons. Terrorism has ideological purpose behind it. They have demands they want met.

It wasn't merely a suicide because he took so many with him. But calling it a murder doesn't quite fit either because I don't think he even thought about the people in the back of the plane. It's as if they were just cargo that happened to be there. Whereas murder or even murder-suicide usually involves feelings of aggression toward your victim. I'm willing to bet that if that was an empty plane and he was the only one flying it, he'd have done the same thing. Of course we'll never really know since all the witnesses to the deed are dead.

I'm not sure what to call this type of act.

It is premeditated murder. There is no requirement to show feelings of aggression towards anyone. There just needs to be a malicious intent to kill, which basically means that he knew his actions would lead to the death of the victims.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...eople.html

Post: #91

Since we're speculating, any ideas what the "significant discovery not a suicide note" police found at his apartment was?

Post: #92

Quote:.... there’s a theory that Lubitz was a “jilted lover.” Locals say he lived with a woman, but she hasn’t been located.

Post: #93

(03-26-2015 08:08 AM)sixsix Wrote:  

He just looks like a turd and coward, it is in his face and mostly eyes. I have gotten a good eye over the yerars for spotting who would run when something happens and who would stand there with you..Does he look like some one who would help you out in a fight?! Negative..

Post: #94

(03-26-2015 11:19 PM)Brian Shima Wrote:  He just looks like a turd and coward, it is in his face.

The term for this is "European".


I kid, I kid. A little levity to lighten things up..

Post: #95

(03-26-2015 11:27 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 11:19 PM)Brian Shima Wrote:  He just looks like a turd and coward, it is in his face.

The term for this is "European".


I kid, I kid. A little levity to lighten things up..

Post: #96

I'm surprised no one's quoted the posts in the beloved New York Librul Times about the financial pressure causing the shift from 3 to 2 person crews. I hadn't thought that when a pilot goes to the bathroom, there's only ONE person in charge of 150 people's lives? That sounds insane to me-- I would much prefer there are always -- as in ALWAYS, 2 flying professionals in the cockpit because you know those pilots are going to go back and mack the stews or do other things not quite according to regs.


And shouldn't there be a small toilet room in the cockpit? What's the use of a locking cockpit door when hijackers could easily wait for a pilot to come out for bathroom break and rush the cockpit while the door is unlocked? I can 't believe this stuff hasn't been figured out more securely.

So when I mean always I mean an incident report should have to be filed whenever there was one person in the cockpit. Major fuck up as we can easily see now...

Whether this guy was malevolent, became ill mentally or physically , or some freak meteor blew out the windshield and destroyed the avionics,
having a third professional in the cockpit would have increased the chances for recovery.

The poster said airlines succeeded in pressuring airplane manufacturers to reduce cockpit design from having 3 people, 2 pilots and a flight engineer-- to two, so they could SAVE ON COSTS.

The invisible hand of the market succeeds. Unfortunately with a lot of possibly preventable deaths.

Doubt you'll hear much airline and Boeing criticism in the press. They own the stock.

Post: #97

(03-26-2015 11:58 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  The poster said airlines succeeded in pressuring airplane manufacturers to reduce cockpit design from having 3 people, 2 pilots and a flight engineer-- to two, so they could SAVE ON COSTS.

The introduction of modern avionics has reduced pilot workload enormously over the last 30 years. I'm not sure what a flight engineer would be needed to do now. You put your flight plan: waypoints, approach, etc into the FMS and let the avionics do most of the work. A big problem is that pilots so rarely hand fly planes anymore that they can lose that skill when it's needed most.

It looks like airlines after this accident are finally moving voluntarily to the US system where two people are required in the cockpit at all times. This should help reduce this type of problem.

Post: #98

^^ there were informative articles in one of the Malaysia Airlines threads about how pilots have become complacent thanks to autopilot. My internet is limited so I can't chase them down at the moment.

Post: #99

Odds are shortening on the jilted lover theory: reporters are saying the guy suffered a major breakdown after his engagement fell through.

Post: #100

(03-27-2015 12:10 AM)Gringuito Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 11:58 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  The poster said airlines succeeded in pressuring airplane manufacturers to reduce cockpit design from having 3 people, 2 pilots and a flight engineer-- to two, so they could SAVE ON COSTS.

The introduction of modern avionics has reduced pilot workload enormously over the last 30 years. I'm not sure what a flight engineer would be needed to do now.

Play Candy Crush 95% of the time but also maybe save the 150 people from getting blasted to bits when something goes wrong...this also might have helped the Egyptian flight where one pilot went nuts and the mystery Malaysian one, there's no telling there.

He also could be tasked with impregnating hot stews to help our gene pool.

Seriously, even if they put toilet rooms in the cockpit, those guys are going to get bored and go cruise the stews. At least if you have three guys you've got one watching the other one who might lose his shit and want to meet God.

When they really want to always have two guys in the cockpit, anyone that's run an organization knows you are going to have exceptions and guys will sneak around and you'll end up with ONE. In real life, you always have to have EXTRA or you end up like we are now with all those untimely dead people.

Me personally, I'd pay the extra $4 per leg to make sure there's always two people up there. (150x4 = 600)