Post: #1

Let me preface this by saying first- I am not a "gun guy". It's not a hobby of mine, I don't currently own a firearm, and don't plan to until I set up a home base in a different state (currently in CT- not a very gun-friendly state for reasons which I'm sure I don't need to elaborate)

I don't ascribe to the Republican/Democrat false dichotomy anymore and I'm not saying Obama is some reptillian-NWO-Illuminatus. He is a deeply misguided man who honestly believes what he is doing is right, and that government is the solution to most of the problems of the human condition.

Having said all that- this may be the most vulgar and overt power grab by the US federal government in quite some time. Obama is attempting to ban .223 ammunition, the ammo used by the AR-15 rifle, by executive order. It's no secret this administration strongly dislikes the 2nd amendment and has taken numerous steps to undermine it in the past 6 years, most of them unsuccessful. Since nothing else has worked, it seems Obama is now just going for the nuclear option and using an executive order.

It is my opinion that people of Obama's ilk in the government want the public disarmed, so that there is no theoretical ability of said public to resist drastic actions taken by the feds in the event of currency collapse, forced relocation, etc...the bottom line is, they want a total monopoly on the use of deadly force via firearms, something the 2nd amendment was explicitly designed to prevent. Every country that disarms its' citizens inevitably ends up oppressing them more and more, even brutalizing them. But somehow, because America is just so gosh-darn special, people think that can't happen here. I don't buy it. History has many lessons to teach about such actions taken by governments.

What are your opinions on this issue? Let's try to keep it civil and not let it devolve into "OBAMA IZ A MUSLIM TRAITOR!!1!" nonsense. This is a game forum, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss important issues like this- this stuff matters, and if you are are US citizen or live in the states, it affects you, even if like myself, you don't own a gun.

Post: #2

Reading the article and without me stating my opinion, it seems they are only trying to ban a specific type of .223 ammo which they consider to be armor piercing and not all .223 ammo?

Post: #3

(03-03-2015 09:32 AM)NovaVirtu Wrote:  Let me preface this by saying first- I am not a "gun guy". It's not a hobby of mine, I don't currently own a firearm, and don't plan to until I set up a home base in a different state (currently in CT- not a very gun-friendly state for reasons which I'm sure I don't need to elaborate)

I don't ascribe to the Republican/Democrat false dichotomy anymore and I'm not saying Obama is some reptillian-NWO-Illuminatus. He is a deeply misguided man who honestly believes what he is doing is right, and that government is the solution to most of the problems of the human condition.

Having said all that- this may be the most vulgar and overt power grab by the US federal government in quite some time. Obama is attempting to ban .223 ammunition, the ammo used by the AR-15 rifle, by executive order. It's no secret this administration strongly dislikes the 2nd amendment and has taken numerous steps to undermine it in the past 6 years, most of them unsuccessful. Since nothing else has worked, it seems Obama is now just going for the nuclear option and using an executive order.

It is my opinion that people of Obama's ilk in the government want the public disarmed, so that there is no theoretical ability of said public to resist drastic actions taken by the feds in the event of currency collapse, forced relocation, etc...the bottom line is, they want a total monopoly on the use of deadly force via firearms, something the 2nd amendment was explicitly designed to prevent. Every country that disarms its' citizens inevitably ends up oppressing them more and more, even brutalizing them. But somehow, because America is just so gosh-darn special, people think that can't happen here. I don't buy it. History has many lessons to teach about such actions taken by governments.

What are your opinions on this issue? Let's try to keep it civil and not let it devolve into "OBAMA IZ A MUSLIM TRAITOR!!1!" nonsense. This is a game forum, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss important issues like this- this stuff matters, and if you are are US citizen or live in the states, it affects you, even if like myself, you don't own a gun.

Typical Bullshit. Proposing a ban on armor piercing 223 M855, is not the same as banning all 223.

Post: #4

They can't ban glass bottles, gasoline, wax, rag, and a zippo.

Post: #5

They aren't banning real armour piercing ammo, steel cores specific made for piercing armour.
M855 is basic sold everywhere ammo, sure it can pierce soft body, but most pointed rounds can.
Surprised they didn't try to ban armour piercing pistol ammo first, like 5.57 or 762 tokarev.

Post: #6

They'll never keep Men down.

Post: #7

Well shit, now how am I supposed to use the blade runner gun in Fallout: New Vegas?

Post: #8

They're not banning .223 ammunition. They're banning a specific military surplus round, M855, because they consider it armor piercing (which is idiotic because most rifle rounds can go through standard police body armor) and it can be used in a pistol (an AR pistol..which is an AR-15 without a stock and not typically thought of as a handgun. They only exist in America because rifles with barrels shorter than eighteen inches are heavily regulated).



This is the problem with vaguely worded laws that give bureaucrats the power to make policy. The executive can tell them what to do and they'll do it, then there's nothing short of an act of congress or the President changing his mind that can undo their bullshit. Both are unlikely to happen and that's one reason why everyone hates the ATF. Things that have been allowed and approved by them in the past can be banned by them tomorrow.

You can still purchase XM193 and regular .223 rounds, for now. But I think in the future the cheap Russian manufactured steel-cased .223 will all be banned because Putin doesn't like fags and invaded Ukraine. They already banned importation of the Russian 5.45 surplus round shooters were able to get on the cheap for those reasons, so it's just a matter of time.

Anyway, American federal firearms law is arcane as fuck (a feature, not a bug) and you have to be a trained lawyer or autistic to be able to sift through it all and understand it on the first readthrough.

And by the way, I don't consider it a power grab as much as it is just catty passive-aggressive bullshit from our petty President. He and his allies in Congress haven't been able to do much to regulate guns, but the kind of glasses-wearing, Dilbert-looking mangina left-wing pricks he rolls with in his admin hate gun owners and will do anything they can legally do to screw them over.

Post: #9

I'm willing to concede I may have jumped the gun with the distinctions on .223 ammo types. But I am glad people like TheWastelander get the larger point I'm trying to raise here.

This is indicative of the general trend toward totalitarianism of the feds. Today it is the green tip rounds, in 5 years it will be all of them.

You can condition people to accept pretty much anything as long as it is done gradually.


Part of me thinks since Obama is nearing the end of his presidency, and is essentially a lame duck with the Republican-controlled congress, this is one his final middle fingers on the way out the door to the interest groups he opposes (the gun lobby and gun owners in general).

Post: #10

(03-03-2015 10:44 AM)NovaVirtu Wrote:  You can condition people to accept pretty much anything as long as it is done gradually.


Part of me thinks since Obama is nearing the end of his presidency, and is essentially a lame duck with the Republican-controlled congress, this is one his final middle fingers on the way out the door to the interest groups he opposes (the gun lobby and gun owners in general).

Yeah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Also in this instance there was really no preface to him taking this action, he just did it unexpectedly. That way it doesn't garner as much attention, which means less criticism.

Post: #11

He's been antagonistic toward gun owners the entire time he's been in office. His administration specifically prohibited the reimportation of American government property, a bunch of WWII surplus M1 Garands and M1 Carbines we loaned South Korea in the fifties, because they might be used by criminals.

Last time I checked gangbangers weren't interested in heavy ass WWII rifles firing your grandpa's expensive deer-hunting round and using 8-round en-bloc clips.

They're a bunch of pricks.

Post: #12

(03-03-2015 10:44 AM)NovaVirtu Wrote:  You can condition people to accept pretty much anything as long as it is done gradually.

Das it mane. That is exactly what they're doing. This is not gonna be the end of it. It's the same principle we use in pickup. If she doesn't like to be kissed yet, u kiss her on the cheek first a couple of times. If she doesn't want to go home with you yet, you just take her to another bar that's closer to your place. If the American population doesn't accept to get their guns taken away (yet), they start with banning certain types of bullets, then they go further.
While I think of the American right to bear arms as something positive compared to guns being banned in most other first world countries, I don't really believe in the argument that gun-owning citizens can prevent an oppressive government from taking maximum control because with all the AR-15s and shotguns and whatnot, even a halfway organized revolt still wouldn't stand a chance against the high-tech US military if it were systematically used to put them down.

Post: #13

(03-03-2015 02:44 PM)Doc Rock Wrote:  I don't really believe in the argument that gun-owning citizens can prevent an oppressive government from taking maximum control because with all the AR-15s and shotguns and whatnot, even a halfway organized revolt still wouldn't stand a chance against the high-tech US military if it were systematically used to put them down.

They could drone us to death, but it wouldn't happen, and the military would never turn on the American people. I'm not worried about the government so much, but there's no doubt a lot of gun owners have that on their mind.

Most of the people in the SWPL/SJW capitals (SoCal, DC, Boston, Portland, etc.) could give a rats ass about gun rights, but its a different story for the people out in the boonies and in the fly over states.

I wish I could say getting Obama out of office is going to save us, but its not, our government is conditioning us to expect more and more to be taken from us as time goes on.

With the path they are taking, there is ultimately a fork we will come to where its either all out gun bans, or gun bans in certain cities/states/regions. I think it will be the second path, because certain parts of this country would go into revolution if they tried to take guns away, and in other places (the SJW capitals) the majority wouldn't care, and would somehow feel safer. Its the closest they can get to a win on this subject, even though I think it could still cause huge problems.

I live in Massachusetts now, a state with super strict gun laws, I'm planning a way out as soon as possible, and not just for that reason. I do wish to live in a state that allows open carry, and maximum rights for gun owners, but as many of you know, certain parts of this country are being completely stripped of the American spirit.

Post: #14

Green Tips man - not all of them. Wastelander's right about that.

I was just in a gun store yesterday and they were mentioning green tips were sold out but hoping to get another order in soon.

Forget an M1 i'd love my second rifle build to be an M14.

Post: #15

(03-03-2015 05:45 PM)kaotic Wrote:  Green Tips man - not all of them. Wastelander's right about that.

I was just in a gun store yesterday and they were mentioning green tips were sold out but hoping to get another order in soon.

Forget an M1 i'd love my second rifle build to be an M14.

I was going to get an M1A before I lucked into an FAL. Only problem I had with it is that my steel targets couldn't take repeated hits of .308, so I had to upgrade to 1/2" thick AR500 steel.

Post: #16

(03-03-2015 05:50 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 05:45 PM)kaotic Wrote:  Green Tips man - not all of them. Wastelander's right about that.

I was just in a gun store yesterday and they were mentioning green tips were sold out but hoping to get another order in soon.

Forget an M1 i'd love my second rifle build to be an M14.

I was going to get an M1A before I lucked into an FAL. Only problem I had with it is that my steel targets couldn't take repeated hits of .308, so I had to upgrade to 1/2" thick AR500 steel.

FAL's are nice dude !

Hehe yeah that's the problem, gotta get better targets, ever use those steel jacks on the ground ? Love those things also !

Post: #17

The NRA stated that they couldn't find an example of one crime committed with this particular ammo. With that in mind, it makes Obama's move seem awfully weird, if not downright dictatorial.

Post: #18

(03-03-2015 07:26 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 05:50 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 05:45 PM)kaotic Wrote:  Green Tips man - not all of them. Wastelander's right about that.

I was just in a gun store yesterday and they were mentioning green tips were sold out but hoping to get another order in soon.

Forget an M1 i'd love my second rifle build to be an M14.

I was going to get an M1A before I lucked into an FAL. Only problem I had with it is that my steel targets couldn't take repeated hits of .308, so I had to upgrade to 1/2" thick AR500 steel.

FAL's are nice dude !

Hehe yeah that's the problem, gotta get better targets, ever use those steel jacks on the ground ? Love those things also !

I haven't, no. My setup is a portable aluminum frame that came with the first steel target I bought. It's got heavy duty steel chains attached to it that hold the target up. The new target is rock solid. I've hit it with everything from .22LR up to 8MM Mauser as well as plenty of .223 and 5.45 and there is barely any cratering. You have to be careful not to put holes in the frame, though.

It's funny, for Christmas my buddy filed all the jagged edges down, cleared off the jacket splatter and "pimped" the frame with bright gold spray-paint. It looks ridiculous. I'll try to get a picture of it if I go down there this weekend.

Post: #19

These threads always make me so jealous of you guys across the pond!

Post: #20

(03-03-2015 02:44 PM)Doc Rock Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 10:44 AM)NovaVirtu Wrote:  You can condition people to accept pretty much anything as long as it is done gradually.

Das it mane. That is exactly what they're doing. This is not gonna be the end of it. It's the same principle we use in pickup. If she doesn't like to be kissed yet, u kiss her on the cheek first a couple of times. If she doesn't want to go home with you yet, you just take her to another bar that's closer to your place. If the American population doesn't accept to get their guns taken away (yet), they start with banning certain types of bullets, then they go further.
While I think of the American right to bear arms as something positive compared to guns being banned in most other first world countries, I don't really believe in the argument that gun-owning citizens can prevent an oppressive government from taking maximum control because with all the AR-15s and shotguns and whatnot, even a halfway organized revolt still wouldn't stand a chance against the high-tech US military if it were systematically used to put them down.

What would they do? Use all their technology on their own citizens? And the people operating that technology would happily go along with bombing their neighbors into dust?

300,000,000 armed citizens in a largely urban/guerrilla warfare would be unstoppable, unless you want to use WMD. And what would be the point of a govt. using WMD on its own people? What would be left for them to govt. over if they destroy everything?

Post: #21

You are assuming that all 300 million people are rebels. How many people, today, would be willing to take up arms against "the government" if there were a catalyst for revolution? My guess is not too many. Life is much too comfortable for the ordinary person to revolt, even if the end result is 1984.

Post: #22

(03-03-2015 07:39 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 07:26 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 05:50 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 05:45 PM)kaotic Wrote:  Green Tips man - not all of them. Wastelander's right about that.

I was just in a gun store yesterday and they were mentioning green tips were sold out but hoping to get another order in soon.

Forget an M1 i'd love my second rifle build to be an M14.

I was going to get an M1A before I lucked into an FAL. Only problem I had with it is that my steel targets couldn't take repeated hits of .308, so I had to upgrade to 1/2" thick AR500 steel.

FAL's are nice dude !

Hehe yeah that's the problem, gotta get better targets, ever use those steel jacks on the ground ? Love those things also !

I haven't, no. My setup is a portable aluminum frame that came with the first steel target I bought. It's got heavy duty steel chains attached to it that hold the target up. The new target is rock solid. I've hit it with everything from .22LR up to 8MM Mauser as well as plenty of .223 and 5.45 and there is barely any cratering. You have to be careful not to put holes in the frame, though.

It's funny, for Christmas my buddy filed all the jagged edges down, cleared off the jacket splatter and "pimped" the frame with bright gold spray-paint. It looks ridiculous. I'll try to get a picture of it if I go down there this weekend.

No shit ? That's awesome, that's what always pissed me off is cratering.

Check out the steel jacks, they're great or hand gun practice or at most 5.56.

Yeah I wouldn't want to do that to the frame either !

Post: #23

I agree that we should not let the government gradually roll over us, but then there's something my professor told me that still really sticks with me till this day:

IF the government really want to come down on you, do you really think your pistol/assault rifle could outmatch heavy armor tanks, rocket launchers, grenade launcher, attack helicopter and all of that shit?

How much of the population is armed? How much of those who are armed has the training to actually use it against professional soldiers?

Look at it guys, it's never changed since the middle ages. The peasants are not allowed to buy warhorses or swords or armors. The nobility own all the heavy hitting stuff. We didn't come a long way.

Post: #24

(03-03-2015 08:04 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 07:39 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 07:26 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 05:50 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 05:45 PM)kaotic Wrote:  Green Tips man - not all of them. Wastelander's right about that.

I was just in a gun store yesterday and they were mentioning green tips were sold out but hoping to get another order in soon.

Forget an M1 i'd love my second rifle build to be an M14.

I was going to get an M1A before I lucked into an FAL. Only problem I had with it is that my steel targets couldn't take repeated hits of .308, so I had to upgrade to 1/2" thick AR500 steel.

FAL's are nice dude !

Hehe yeah that's the problem, gotta get better targets, ever use those steel jacks on the ground ? Love those things also !

I haven't, no. My setup is a portable aluminum frame that came with the first steel target I bought. It's got heavy duty steel chains attached to it that hold the target up. The new target is rock solid. I've hit it with everything from .22LR up to 8MM Mauser as well as plenty of .223 and 5.45 and there is barely any cratering. You have to be careful not to put holes in the frame, though.

It's funny, for Christmas my buddy filed all the jagged edges down, cleared off the jacket splatter and "pimped" the frame with bright gold spray-paint. It looks ridiculous. I'll try to get a picture of it if I go down there this weekend.

No shit ? That's awesome, that's what always pissed me off is cratering.

Check out the steel jacks, they're great or hand gun practice or at most 5.56.

Yeah I wouldn't want to do that to the frame either !

Is this what you're talking about?

Post: #25

Cuba was taken by Castro with an army that often numbered less than 200 men. The USA is far larger and more powerful, but if there ever was a need for US citizens to take back their government, it wouldn't be impossible. Hopefully democracy kicks in before a situation occurs where that seems necessary, however.