Post: #1

I thought that this would make for an interesting discussion among the science-minded RVFers, and I'm sure many posters have heard about this before, but I had to share it anyway.

Long story short, in 1959, Soviet scientist Dmitri Belyaev began breeding silver foxes, selecting for tameness. Foxes that were aggressive or neutral towards humans were not bred, but those that sought human contact/acted friendly were bred. Within 10 generations, 18% of foxes were considered "elite," i.e. tame/friendly. Within 20 generations, that number nearly doubled, hitting 35%. Forty years after the experiment began, as many as 80% of the foxes are considered tame.

Not only did the percentage of tame foxes increase with each generation, they began to change physically too:

Quote:Some important changes in physiology and morphology are now visible, such as mottled or spotted colored fur. Many scientists believe that these changes related to selection for tameness are caused by lower adrenaline production in the new breed, causing physiological changes in very few generations and thus yielding genetic combinations not present in the original species. This indicates that selection for tameness (i.e. low flight distance) produces changes that are also influential on the emergence of other "dog-like" traits, such as raised tail and coming into heat every six months rather than annually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

...

There's an interesting article in a 1999 issue of American Scientist magazine, that I found to be a worthwhile read: http://155.97.32.9/~bbenham/2510%20Sprin...riment.pdf

...

And while I'm posting this thread, how about a couple of videos of these cute buggers?









...

I didn't really have a purpose in posting this thread, I just found it to be an interesting experiment with tangible results.

Post: #2

It's a fabulous study and one that I always refer friends etc to if they mention getting a dog.

The gist of it is: the more a dog looks like a wolf, the less domestic friendly its characteristics are.

Post: #3

(01-24-2015 02:52 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  The gist of it is: the more a dog looks like a wolf, the less domestic friendly its characteristics are.

A husky and an Alsatian look quite wolf-like. A pitbull looks nothing like one.

Post: #4

(01-24-2015 03:21 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 02:52 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  The gist of it is: the more a dog looks like a wolf, the less domestic friendly its characteristics are.

A husky and an Alsatian look quite wolf-like. A pitbull looks nothing like one.

Not all dogs have been selected for domesticness. Some have been selected for agresiveness. Others for fur, smell, speed and many other factors.

Post: #5

(01-24-2015 03:21 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 02:52 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  The gist of it is: the more a dog looks like a wolf, the less domestic friendly its characteristics are.

A husky and an Alsatian look quite wolf-like. A pitbull looks nothing like one.

Well a pitbull might be more aggressive but its natural characteristics won't be as "wild" for want of a better word than a Huskie.

Huskies are pretty notorious for their wolf-like qualities are they not?

Post: #6

That's pretty amazing. I wonder what other kind of animals could be domesticated.

Post: #7

Where do I get one?

edit: found it https://www.lkalmanson.com/index.php?opt...&Itemid=32

$9000

If I see a pretty girl with a fox can I holler "hey foxy lady?"

Post: #8

(01-24-2015 11:09 AM)Old Fritz Wrote:  That's pretty amazing. I wonder what other kind of animals could be domesticated.

Humans.

Post: #9

(01-24-2015 12:37 PM)Shrodax Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 11:09 AM)Old Fritz Wrote:  That's pretty amazing. I wonder what other kind of animals could be domesticated.

Humans.

Good point. We still aren't fully civilized yet.

Post: #10

(01-24-2015 12:37 PM)Shrodax Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 11:09 AM)Old Fritz Wrote:  That's pretty amazing. I wonder what other kind of animals could be domesticated.

Humans.

Humans of course are domesticated. Compare us to cavemen. Much less violent. Much more child-like. Weaker. Obviously we live on homes and are not wild, which is basically what the word "domesticated" means (domus is the Latin for home).





http://www.unz.com/gnxp/domestication-du...ral-crest/

Post: #11

Can this experiment be run on American women?

Post: #12

(01-24-2015 01:25 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 12:37 PM)Shrodax Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 11:09 AM)Old Fritz Wrote:  That's pretty amazing. I wonder what other kind of animals could be domesticated.

Humans.

Humans of course are domesticated. Compare us to cavemen. Much less violent. Much more child-like. Weaker. Obviously we live on homes and are not wild, which is basically what the word "domesticated" means (domus is the Latin for home).





http://www.unz.com/gnxp/domestication-du...ral-crest/

Indeed. The Romans referred to laborers and slaves as instrumentum vocale - speaking tools. Instrumentum semi-vocale and instrumentum mutum were animals and inanimate tools, respectively. Most of humanity would fit into that category today.

Post: #13

(01-24-2015 11:09 AM)Old Fritz Wrote:  That's pretty amazing. I wonder what other kind of animals could be domesticated.

Capybaras?









And if foxes can be domesticated, then surely the Coyote can be as well.

Post: #14

Everyone pick your favorite wild animal and get to domesticating.

Post: #15

Also, I'd like to buy one of those domesticated foxes. Anybody know where I can find the nearest pet shop?

Post: #16

(01-24-2015 01:40 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Can this experiment be run on American women?

It looks like they tried it, but she demands a massage after a long day of eating.

Post: #17

(01-25-2015 04:17 AM)Seboist Wrote:  And if foxes can be domesticated, then surely the Coyote can be as well.

If a coyote domestication experiment were carried out, it would probably be quite fascinating to see the progression over a few decades.

First and foremost, while domestic dogs, coyotes, wolves, and foxes all belong to the same family, Canidae, foxes are not of the Canus genus - but instead, Vulpes. I have no scientific basis for the following thought, but considering coyotes and domestic dogs are more closely related than dogs and foxes, perhaps coyotes would be easier to domesticate.

Post: #18

Fox Game

Walking your fox down the park

Post: #19

A common citation of this experiment is when discussing the number of generations it takes to change personality traits. Not many apparently. Would be fascinating if mainstream scientists were ever able to take the results of this experiment to their logical conclusion and look at how human personality and behavior traits have changed in the last 10,000 years on the genetic level.

Post: #20

(01-27-2015 03:51 AM)Arado Wrote:  A common citation of this experiment is when discussing the number of generations it takes to change personality traits. Not many apparently. Would be fascinating if mainstream scientists were ever able to take the results of this experiment to their logical conclusion and look at how human personality and behavior traits have changed in the last 10,000 years on the genetic level.

This post is one reply away from Godwin

Post: #21

Going by that hippo vid and this polar bear one, it looks like it might even be possible to domesticate large mammals.

Post: #22

I was tempted to post a picture of Charlie Rich, but I'm not sure anyone would get the joke...

Post: #23

What about the opposite ? Feral animals.

Pigs that escape from farms and live in the wild turn into wild boars pretty quickly. They start growing horns and shit.

Post: #24

(01-27-2015 03:51 AM)Arado Wrote:  A common citation of this experiment is when discussing the number of generations it takes to change personality traits. Not many apparently. Would be fascinating if mainstream scientists were ever able to take the results of this experiment to their logical conclusion and look at how human personality and behavior traits have changed in the last 10,000 years on the genetic level.

There are many scientists out there who do tackle this problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_10,000_Year_Explosion

http://www.unz.com/pfrost/two-paths/

(01-27-2015 03:24 PM)Seboist Wrote:  Going by that hippo vid and this polar bear one, it looks like it might even be possible to domesticate large mammals.

A person living with a Grizzly Bear, riding an Elephant, or petting a captive Tiger is not "domestication" it's "taming". Possibly we could domesticate other species, it would be heady to try.

Post: #25

(01-28-2015 12:53 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(01-27-2015 03:51 AM)Arado Wrote:  A common citation of this experiment is when discussing the number of generations it takes to change personality traits. Not many apparently. Would be fascinating if mainstream scientists were ever able to take the results of this experiment to their logical conclusion and look at how human personality and behavior traits have changed in the last 10,000 years on the genetic level.

There are many scientists out there who do tackle this problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_10,000_Year_Explosion

http://www.unz.com/pfrost/two-paths/

(01-27-2015 03:24 PM)Seboist Wrote:  Going by that hippo vid and this polar bear one, it looks like it might even be possible to domesticate large mammals.

A person living with a Grizzly Bear, riding an Elephant, or petting a captive Tiger is not "domestication" it's "taming". Possibly we could domesticate other species, it would be heady to try.

Am fully aware of that, was trying to imply that if were to bread docile polar bears and hippos like those then it should be possible to domesticate them.