Post: #151

(10-06-2014 03:24 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Has America devolved into a place where not eating after your evening meal is considered unusual?

Appetizers are grazing behaviour. Two observations of female eating: chicks indulge to excess when they're emotionally-upset but graze when they're trying to distract themselves from their boredom. Do you want to risk that subconscious association when you're trying to build intimacy?

Have you considered that an American restaurant portion is twice the size of a portion anywhere else in the world? So an appetizer can easily be enough for the kind of girl whose company we'd seek. By that, I mean not a land whale.

My observation of female eating is that it's often random. She may be training herself to skip meals, or be on some kind of crazy diet. It's not a set schedule.

On a night where she goes out to drink with a guy she only knows from online, you can't really assume she even had an evening meal. There may not have been time or motivation to go home, change clothes and eat.

More likely, she grabbed a snack in the afternoon. As long as she eats something hot and salted after dark, she'll feel sated until the next day. It's not dinner in the old fashioned sense of the word. But it suits the habits of a late teens or early twenties barfly.

You may think of it as grazing. But that's because you have a different relationship to food than a girl in our target demographic would have.

Post: #152

To me, 7:30pm is a reasonable dinner or food time for anyone in the United States who works a normal job and isn't come straight from work to meet you up. You can't invite someone for drinks at that time then get pissed off that they may be hungry or want to eat something, even if you explicitly state we're going to meet "for drinks". Its just the cost of doing business. I'd rather meet some girl at 6pm for Happy Hour than at 7:30pm strictly for drinks, because that's really a time for eating. If I wanted to meet up for drinks only, I'd go to a drinks only venue that doesn't serve food.

If it were like 9pm or something, then I'd understand, but for a girl to get off work, get ready and eat in time to get there by 7:30pm, to me, is a little unreasonable. That being said, even sometimes if its at 9pm or hell any time and the girl sometimes orders an appetizer or an expensive drink, it kind of pisses me off since I'm a cheap bastard to begin with.

Post: #153

I may be a little too late to the party, but here's my take on it.

I am generally against buying appetizers on first dates, but I do break the rule every now and then. Here is why I don't like the whole idea:

- I know there are alphas out there who will tell you they get laid on 100% of dates. Well, good for them if they tell the truth. My success rate on dates is much, much less than that. It's getting better as I'm learning game, but it's still too low to be throwing money on first dates. I can handle spending $50 on a date, even more than that, but it just stings when you do it and the bitch will just let you kiss her on the cheek at the end of the date and won't even answer your text after that.

- This leads to my second reason: because of the low success rate, I've been experimenting with cheap or even zero-spend dates. I have found absolutely no correlation between how much I spend on a date vs how likely the girl is to sleep with me. The last 3 girls who did came to my place after one round of drinks at a cheap bar nearby.

- While buying girls appetizers doesn't does nothing to improve the chances of success, cooking for (or with) the girl at home is pretty much a guaranteed bang. It is also cheaper, healthier and tastier than the appetizers they serve at bars. You can talk about food and then offer to cook something unusual. For example, I cooked Russian dumplings for a girl recently. Also, it is a good way to screen girls: she helps you cooking or doing the dishes, perhaps she's not pump and dump material and is worth inviting over again.

So, to me it's not about being cheap. I don't mind feeding girls, but I like to do it on my terms and at my place.

Post: #154

Ok, solid point Tigre.

(10-06-2014 07:02 PM)Tigre Wrote:  There may not have been time or motivation to go home, change clothes and eat.

Has America devolved into a place where girls make this little effort when going to meet a man? I mean, I'm sensing the Dismissive-Avoidance and lack of effort from the younger American Women in their online whinging, but they don't even bother to go home, freshen up and try to dress nice when meeting a new man?

Aussie Girls will at least try to put some makeup on the pig, you know?

Post: #155

(10-06-2014 07:03 PM)Drazen Wrote:  To me, 7:30pm is a reasonable dinner or food time for anyone in the United States who works a normal job and isn't come straight from work to meet you up. You can't invite someone for drinks at that time then get pissed off that they may be hungry or want to eat something, even if you explicitly state we're going to meet "for drinks". Its just the cost of doing business. I'd rather meet some girl at 6pm for Happy Hour than at 7:30pm strictly for drinks, because that's really a time for eating. If I wanted to meet up for drinks only, I'd go to a drinks only venue that doesn't serve food.

Thats bullshit for a few reasons

-If you know you can't eat dinner in time why agree to meet up for drinks at a certain time and then act surprise when you're date doesn't want to share food? Why not be a grownup and suggest a later time or tell the other person?

-If the girl is showing up straight from work then she hasn't showered all day and doesn't give a flying fuck about the date.

Quote:If it were like 9pm or something, then I'd understand, but for a girl to get off work, get ready and eat in time to get there by 7:30pm, to me, is a little unreasonable. That being said, even sometimes if its at 9pm or hell any time and the girl sometimes orders an appetizer or an expensive drink, it kind of pisses me off since I'm a cheap bastard to begin with.

No it's not unreasonable. 7:30pm drinks is for girls who live close to me that get off of work at 5pm(hence they have to wake up early). I find these things out first hand and then make a judgement call when to set the date. If I found out the girl works later or lives farther I push the drinks date to a later time like 9pm.

Post: #156

Quote:I agree to a little point even though I've demonstrated in the original post when I shot a girl down on her request to share food she invited back to her place an hour later. I've made out with girls after 'appetizer' dates as well in cars/parking lot.

Makeouts are poor success metrics for dates. I've made out with plenty of chicks who disappeared after. Girls will make out with you even if they don't like you, just to go with your lead and just for the sake of making out. You can't use them to argue a girl ate food and still felt horny.

Different story if the date was supposed to be about food anyway. Gio's food game is an entirely different beast compared to what we're discussing.

Post: #157

(10-06-2014 07:23 PM)The Wire Wrote:  Thats bullshit for a few reasons

-If you know you can't eat dinner in time why agree to meet up for drinks at a certain time and then act surprise when you're date doesn't want to share food? Why not be a grownup and suggest a later time or tell the other person?

-If the girl is showing up straight from work then she hasn't showered all day and doesn't give a flying fuck about the date.

No it's not unreasonable. 7:30pm drinks is for girls who live close to me that get off of work at 5pm(hence they have to wake up early). I find these things out first hand and then make a judgement call when to set the date. If I found out the girl works later or lives farther I push the drinks date to a later time like 9pm.

Even if you're going to a venue for "drinks" the fact that its around the traditional meal time AND they happen to serve food there, chances are good she'll end up ordering something to eat. For you not to assume that is poor logistics on your part. Sure, it may not be part of the agenda for the night, but what are you going to say, "We're only here to drink?".

What's next, are you going to ask a girl out for Martinis and then freak out when she orders a beer?

Post: #158

(10-06-2014 07:22 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Ok, solid point Tigre.

(10-06-2014 07:02 PM)Tigre Wrote:  There may not have been time or motivation to go home, change clothes and eat.

Has America devolved into a place where girls make this little effort when going to meet a man? I mean, I'm sensing the Dismissive-Avoidance and lack of effort from the younger American Women in their online whinging, but they don't even bother to go home, freshen up and try to dress nice when meeting a new man?

I think you misunderstood. If she leaves work at say 530, goes home, showers, changes clothes puts on makeup, drives to bar/taxi/etc, the earliest she can possibly be there is 730pm. She won't have eaten in ~7 hours. Once she starts drinking, she'll want some food by like 830-9pm.

So, you either meet up at <6pm or >9pm if this is a problem for you. And if she ate early, by 11pm she may want a little something. And you can always tell her you'll cook something at your place as others have mentioned. Eating out can be an erotic experience as well, if you're feeding her or vice versa, you know it's in the bag. I also prefer not to have a drunk, sloppy girl at the end of the night.

Also, if you expect girls to put 100% effort in their hair, makeup and etc, that costs them more than an appetizer will cost you. You'd be amazed what their products cost for a tiny tube of something for eyes, lashes, lips...

Post: #159

(10-06-2014 08:02 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

Quote:I agree to a little point even though I've demonstrated in the original post when I shot a girl down on her request to share food she invited back to her place an hour later. I've made out with girls after 'appetizer' dates as well in cars/parking lot.

Makeouts are poor success metrics for dates. I've made out with plenty of chicks who disappeared after. Girls will make out with you even if they don't like you, just to go with your lead and just for the sake of making out. You can't use them to argue a girl ate food and still felt horny.

No I agree. Makeout is a bad metric, I just meant I've seen results all over the place depending on the scenario but food was definitely a cock block for the night.

Post: #160

(10-06-2014 08:24 PM)Drazen Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 07:23 PM)The Wire Wrote:  Thats bullshit for a few reasons

-If you know you can't eat dinner in time why agree to meet up for drinks at a certain time and then act surprise when you're date doesn't want to share food? Why not be a grownup and suggest a later time or tell the other person?

-If the girl is showing up straight from work then she hasn't showered all day and doesn't give a flying fuck about the date.

No it's not unreasonable. 7:30pm drinks is for girls who live close to me that get off of work at 5pm(hence they have to wake up early). I find these things out first hand and then make a judgement call when to set the date. If I found out the girl works later or lives farther I push the drinks date to a later time like 9pm.

Even if you're going to a venue for "drinks" the fact that its around the traditional meal time AND they happen to serve food there, chances are good she'll end up ordering something to eat. For you not to assume that is poor logistics on your part.

What is a traditional meal time then?

Quote:What's next, are you going to ask a girl out for Martinis and then freak out when she orders a beer?

That makes sense .

Post: #161

anonymous123, you don't get it. Actually I think you get it, but you're dancing in fallacies because you want to be stubborn.

There is no comparison between Giovonny's point and buying appetizers at a bar. This debate isn't even about food.

It's about frame.

Giovonny's food dates are brilliant. They're cooking together, grabbing groceries together, and he's created an interactive environment in which both people are enjoying themselves. All according to HIS PLAN, all within HIS FRAME.

Contrast that to a date you may have at the lounge of the W Hotel. You invited her out for drinks, so you pay for the drinks, no problem there. Your plan is to get the two of you liquored up a bit while you get to know each other, let the screws loosen up, with an angle toward getting her back to your place. Your plan does not include the organic arrugula dip with guatemalan imported tofu for $32.

Obviously she knows what's within and what's out of bounds, and this is her first step at pushing those boundaries. What we refer to as a shit test.

If you keep her in check you monumentally increase your chances of banging her out later.

If you comply with her, you're now her beta provider. You're not banging her. She's going to finish her appetizer and only take two sips of her mojito. She'll tell you she doesn't want to finish her drink because she's tired. You'll pay for her cab home and never see her again.

You, Mr Big Baller, will wonder what went wrong on the date. You'll probably rationalize it to her being a bitch or "tonight wasn't my night."

Meanwhile, when the girl gets home she's suddenly going to feel revitalized and want to go out. She's going to text some alpha cock, who's probably some 30k millionaire as you like to say. If he asks her why she didn't go out tonight, she'll tell him "I went out to dinner with a friend but then I got bored so I left."

Don't be a provider.

Post: #162

(10-06-2014 08:26 PM)horn Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 07:22 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Ok, solid point Tigre.

(10-06-2014 07:02 PM)Tigre Wrote:  There may not have been time or motivation to go home, change clothes and eat.

Has America devolved into a place where girls make this little effort when going to meet a man? I mean, I'm sensing the Dismissive-Avoidance and lack of effort from the younger American Women in their online whinging, but they don't even bother to go home, freshen up and try to dress nice when meeting a new man?

I think you misunderstood. If she leaves work at say 530, goes home, showers, changes clothes puts on makeup, drives to bar/taxi/etc, the earliest she can possibly be there is 730pm. She won't have eaten in ~7 hours. Once she starts drinking, she'll want some food by like 830-9pm.

So, you either meet up at <6pm or >9pm if this is a problem for you. And if she ate early, by 11pm she may want a little something. And you can always tell her you'll cook something at your place as others have mentioned. Eating out can be an erotic experience as well, if you're feeding her or vice versa, you know it's in the bag. I also prefer not to have a drunk, sloppy girl at the end of the night.

Also, if you expect girls to put 100% effort in their hair, makeup and etc, that costs them more than an appetizer will cost you. You'd be amazed what their products cost for a tiny tube of something for eyes, lashes, lips...

Its not about the $$ though. Also, why are you taking the side of the ho's "come on man!"

You act like we don't put 100% into how we look/present ourselves.

Post: #163

Only partake in the appetizer if she is already gotten so buzzed you know a bang is in the bag and the food will help keep her liquor down.

One time I was on a date 2 with a very attractive upper class Chinese girl working in the U.S..

I picked her up, she wore a short skirt and bitch boots. She asked how big my dick was and grabbed it at the same time while I was driving to the bar. The first date she was almost too shy to makeout.

She got drunk on shots and we had buffalo wings.

That is a green light case. The wings helped keep her coherent she probably weighed 110-120lbs.

Post: #164

This is why I've always done drink dates at 9pm. I can get home from work, have time for the gym if I want to lift, have dinner at home, rest, then go out, and at no point will they try and order food since its clearly past dinner time.

Post: #165

^ 9pm is usually too late for a first date for the non sluts in my experience out here in CA.

If they have work or school it's a tough sell.

Post: #166

(10-06-2014 10:31 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  ^ 9pm is usually too late for a first date for the non sluts in my experience out here in CA.

If they have work or school it's a tough sell.

It's rare a girl will tell me 9 is too late for her. If a girl is down to meet that night then 9 isn't an issue, the trains here don't stop running till after midnight. If she has to get up early the next morning she'll usually suggest another night all together. Shoot for 8 instead then, but I would never go any earlier.

Post: #167

There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. It all depends on each individual man, his game and the girl he is dealing with.

Just like the "indirect" vs "direct" debate, the answer is both. A man with strong social and sexual skills will know how use either option to guide the interaction in the way that he wants.

I'd like to respond:

(10-06-2014 04:15 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  The "No Appetizer" mindset is a guideline for the following conditions:

1. First date
2. American chick

That's all we're saying.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying..

Let me respond:

Earlier I posted a few examples. Three of them were first dates with American girls. All three ended in bangs.

-----

Should we be buying appetizers on first dates with American girls?

It just depends.

Is your game strong enough to do it without giving up all your power in the negotiation?

Can you do it and still maintain your dominant "frame"?

Can you do it from a place of superiority rather than inferiority?

Do you want to be the dominant one in the interaction or are you okay with her thinking that she has some control?

Are you hungry? Can you afford it?

Those are the questions?

-----

Personally, sometimes I get an appetizer and sometimes I don't. It just depends on the situation.

Lately, I have been telling girls to eat something before the date.

Or, I tell them that we can just eat at my place.

(10-06-2014 04:15 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  A lot of this stuff, as you know well, comes down to the "feel" of the situation.

Yes, of course..

"Game" is all about "feel"!

-----

For some reason I felt compelled to wrote this:

Some guys don't want to do it out of "principle".
Some guys don't care about any so called "principle".

Some guys give off a "provider" vibe.
Some guys give off a "lover" vibe.

Some guys use "provider" type game.
Some guys use "lover" type game.

Some guys do not recognize when a girl is taking advantage of them.
Some guys do.

Some guys are too cheap.
Some guys are too generous.

Some guys have strong enough game to the point where it doesn't really matter if they buy the appetizer or not.

I have been all of these guys.

(10-06-2014 04:16 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  The thread was more about frame control during the initial meeting.

Yes, my initial post was a little off base and too general!

I do think that some guys can maintain frame control whether they buy the appetizer or not.

(10-06-2014 05:09 PM)The Wire Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 10:23 AM)Deluge Wrote:  How old are these girls who've done this to you guys? I only date 18-23 y.o's,

Good question. My case i've had the majority of woman in there late 20's pull this stunt.

This is very important!

Older women play little power games.

Younger girls appreciate a decent meal.

(10-06-2014 05:30 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Stop giving these ho something to drink.

We're going full minimalism on here.

I do believe in "Game Minimalism". We should be trying to maximize our return with minimum effort. This stuff take time, money, energy. We should strive to be as efficient as possible.

When I drink with a girl, I try to drink a 5 dollar bottle of wine from Trader Joes. Its an organic syrah that I like. (I also try to date girls that live within 10 minutes of my house, do free dates with them, bang them when its convenient for me, etc., but that is another topic entirely)

-----

Edit: I almost deleted this post. Maybe, I should have stayed out of this thread!?!?! Most of my dates are with girls aged 18-21. The op is talking about dating girls in their late 20s...!?!?! I'm not trying to brag but I don't have much experience with that age group.

The difference between an 19 year old and 29 year old is vast.

Post: #168

Yup, 18-21 is a market where they can't get alcohol.

Gio is gaming broads my age, I'm rustling broads his age.

Different demographics, different expectations.

In other news, how do you guys replicate your "first drink date" for your second date? I had the bang in the bag but didn't have the logistics. Now I have the logistics but need to create the same thing...without making it obvious.

Post: #169

I'm on Team No Appetizers for a practical reason. I can easily afford the cost, and the girls I date tend to be younger and not very well employed, while I make good money.

The real reason is: the combination of alcohol (esp wine which girls I date tend to like, and I do drink wine or spirits myself) and usual appetizers make girls gassy.

Gassy girls don't put out.

Post: #170

You guys bitching about appetizers are so cheap! I'll bet that you won't hold her purse when she just hands it over without saying a word too because it's "heavy".

1st. Girls ordering shit like food on a date is a SHIT TEST through and through. You say "sure why not"? and she's just smiled inwardly about one more free thing she's getting from you.

You guys are still thinking logically and rationally about it "It's only 8-10 bucks, that's not going to break the bank".

She just filed you away as just another pushover.

I guarentee the guys paying for her food have to go on more dates before (aka IF) they get the bang than the guys not giving into shit tests.

Like other posters have said (I only read until page 2 so late to the party) girls go on dates with guys just to get free food and cut their costs.

I knew a Mexican girl that would try to invite her friends on dates so the guy was stuck buying her friends dinner too. AND THEN THEY WOULD BOX IT UP AND EAT IT FOR LUNCH THE NEXT DAY.

This is standard operating procedure for bitches.

So if you're one of these potential free dinner guys that's she has luke warm interest in, what do you think she's going to do when you just shell out?

You think she respects you and wants to fuck you because of your rock climbing story?

She's not even listening, she's about to go to the bathroom to text the guy with strong frame that fucked her 2 nights earlier.

On the other hand, you might smash her if you say "nah I'm not hungry, people who eat past 9pm end up fat".

2nd, if you're going out on a lot of dates then it's impractical to shell out an extra 10-12 dollars on food a night. That quickly turns into an 50 extra bucks per week or 200 a month.

That's a pretty cool motorcycle payment. A flight to another city. A two day stay in a nice hotel in wine country etc etc.


Edit - Lo and Behold, the perfect example. /thread-41088.html

Post: #171

What's the verdict on girls who pull out their wallets after a drink and are willing to split it?

I've had a couple times recently with 18-23's where I picked up the tab when they might have split it only for the vibe to change to beta provider ( yes, there were other issues too but those are beside the point...) and they flaked.

Going forward, I'm not going to stop them if they're willing to pull out a card or cash, particularly if they were racking up expenses, like a pricy cocktail to my budget beer, more than one drink, etc.

Post: #172

Lifestyle Game

Post: #173

(10-07-2014 06:46 AM)polar Wrote:  What's the verdict on girls who pull out their wallets after a drink and are willing to split it?

I've had a couple times recently with 18-23's where I picked up the tab when they might have split it only for the vibe to change to beta provider ( yes, there were other issues too but those are beside the point...) and they flaked.

Going forward, I'm not going to stop them if they're willing to pull out a card or cash, particularly if they were racking up expenses, like a pricy cocktail to my budget beer, more than one drink, etc.

Let them.

A woman treating you by paying the bill feels good, so don't make yourself into the woman by taking their role. I approach every date as though I'll never see them again. Their mental balance sheet always has them on the profit side, don't expect them to pay it back.


I have stared girls down on dates until they reached into that expensive designer purse and paid for our drinks with money from their fabulous job in fashion.

If that pisses them off so much that they leave, great! They were never going to fuck me, just drain my wallet, so I've saved money and freed up my time to do something more productive.

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold

Post: #174

I always pay on dates, or at least I expect to. The majority of the time the girl will offer to split, I laugh it off. If she repeats the offer however, I know she's serious and won't say no. As they pay I always see a smile on their faces, I'm guessing they're thinking "hell yeah I'm an independent womyn who can split the bill!" but who knows... I'm guessing if you're older there's a greater expectation that you'll pay for everything.

Post: #175

(10-07-2014 06:52 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  Lifestyle Game

I know this type of game all to well in my own way. I've never seen slutty girls turn into virgins quicker. They see the big bucks/power and switch their game. It's a generalization but that's my experience. If you're looking for a LTR or marriage than this can be helpful I suppose. But you're less likely to go home with her that night. She's going to call her "friend" to service her after your date ends.

If you run this game you better be sure she knows you're a bad boy/player so she doesn't even try the good girl act.

We all have different experiences based on how each of us run game and how each of us are perceived by the girls we take out. If you're a young jacked guy you don't have to worry too much about being thought of as a provider. If you're an older guy that has money, you need to break your dates preconceived notions of how she can use you.