Post: #51

The name of the game is having a seamless motion and never spook the cat. I mean if you want to get ass but if you're all about what you think is right then maybe you will feel better not popping for the jalapeño poppers @ $8.95

Drinks are more expensive than food anyway and an appetizer is not like eating a veal parm over angel hair that delivers a knock out punch.

I'm not worried about this small stuff stick to the bigger issues.

As far as sif goes.. Get at least a blow or drink more and bang.

Post: #52

@ The Wire-
I've never run into girls wanting to order food on a "drinks" date. What I can tell you is try to be more flexible with things. You're getting pissed because a girl has the nerve to order food on a date when you expected her to only order drinks. You said you bounce within two drinks if you and the girl weren't vibing. Let me suggest another play: stay put and get drunk. Turn it into entertainment for yourself as you become some girl's worst first date story. I've done this many times when it appeared that the date was a bust and wound up banging the chick. You'll end up laughing in the morning with her as you compare your versions of the date and how "bad" it was.

Post: #53

Personally I'm not worried about that stuff. It's the cost of doing business I guess.

Post: #54

This thread is silently creeping on potential hall-of-fame material. This debate might be the new direct-versus-indirect game.

Appetizers versus No Food.

Post: #55

It is an interesting debate. Ultimately, do as you want.

Factors that are relevant for me:

I go out in NYC: Drinks are already expensive. I am not cheap by any means as I enjoy high end places in NYC. But if I have a week in which I go on 3-4 days, the cost of dating is not cheap. Eliminating food does help. There aren't any 7 dollar appetizers on the menus at the places I frequent. If you live in a place where drinks are cheap and appetizers are 7 dollars it won't make a big difference in your wallet.

I accept that paying the bill is the way to go as an older man dating younger woman.


With that said for a first date in which you agree to meet for a drink, a girl who orders food and expects you to pay for it might be taking advantage of you. This has happened to me and I know my friends have has this happen to them in NYC. I am cognizant of this and it is actually a more salient issue than the extra dollars factor.

Post: #56

One thing I've noticed over the last 5 years is that Young Australian Women have become absolute slobs when they eat, especially in public. I'll walk past an alfresco dining area and they'll be forking fist-sized wads of pasta in their mouth, chewing with their mouths open, and continuing to talk and text the entire time.

They don't cut their food, and eat it in small bites. It's about stuffing as much in as you can and gulping it down. A potato chip will go into their mouth whole, often side ways.

Best case scenario: I'm trying to have a conversation as her breath reeks of nuts and spicy dips. Worst case: she talks the entire time and I see the food become pulp in her mouth.

I think the simple act of taking her time to savour her food and eating like a bird can bump most girls up 1 SMV point.

Post: #57

I am loving this thread.

I got burnt badly my first year in Canada running dinner and drink game on a girl. After she refused to kiss when she came back to my hotel room 'I am not that sort of girl' (already kissed her when I met her in the club the week before) I released I had been hustled and told her promptly to get the fuck out.

Now I run as close to 'zero cost bang' game as possible.

Food? 'Sure - I will cook at my place' (I always cook big portions anyway)
Drinks? 'Ya I would love some wine, bring some over and I will cook'
Movie? 'Ya sure, come on over, whats your netflix password'
Activity? Walking, coming with me to the supermarket (actually pretty fun) or a coffee n walk (prefer to move around)

After I bang a girl a few times I might start bringing them out for breakfast or getting some takeaway for a night in. If they are particularly nice maybe the odd dinner out when I feel like it.

This is a combination of knowing that we are seeing each other primarily for sex, making sure I am not getting hustled and avoiding all the drama and time of bar dates/nightclubs. My turnover/failure rate is way down and I get a lot less bullshit using this approach.

I am a fan of trying to hustle girls as much as they try hustle guys. It is fun to reverse all the sneaky tricks.

Post: #58

Eating with an open mouth is enough to make me stand up and run away.

Post: #59

(10-04-2014 10:53 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  I am loving this thread.

I got burnt badly my first year in Canada running dinner and drink game on a girl. After she refused to kiss when she came back to my hotel room 'I am not that sort of girl' (already kissed her when I met her in the club the week before) I released I had been hustled and told her promptly to get the fuck out.

Now I run as close to 'zero cost bang' game as possible.

Food? 'Sure - I will cook at my place' (I always cook big portions anyway)
Drinks? 'Ya I would love some wine, bring some over and I will cook'
Movie? 'Ya sure, come on over, whats your netflix password'
Activity? Walking, coming with me to the supermarket (actually pretty fun) or a coffee n walk (prefer to move around)

After I bang a girl a few times I might start bringing them out for breakfast or getting some takeaway for a night in. If they are particularly nice maybe the odd dinner out when I feel like it.

This is a combination of knowing that we are seeing each other primarily for sex, making sure I am not getting hustled and avoiding all the drama and time of bar dates/nightclubs. My turnover/failure rate is way down and I get a lot less bullshit using this approach.

I am a fan of trying to hustle girls as much as they try hustle guys. It is fun to reverse all the sneaky tricks.

Great tips

Do you think they would work in big city USA?

Post: #60

Appetizers are now considered food....

Post: #61

I know a guy, very good looking, reasonably tall and charming with social circle with a lot of hotties, he's basically at the top of what people call the food chain. He complained to me once about how much money he spends on dates, especially since most of his girls never end up going anywhere. His typical date is taking a 7 or 8 out for the classic "dinner and a movie" dropping at least $60-$70 and the most he'd get is making out in his car while dropping them home, with no guarantee of seeing them again.

The interesting thing is that he told me his girls would never offer to split the bill, whereas on my (drink) dates most of the the time they will at least make the gesture. This confused me because like I said he is very good looking, not the type of dude you'd expect to be taken for a ride all the time. Meanwhile even when I've taken girls I actually like out for dinner and a movie on a later date, EVERY single time they have payed for the movie after I payed for dinner. I've never once had a girl try and pull the appetizer move on a drinks date either, I didn't know that was even a thing till I read this thread.

I think some dudes just give off the "nice guy" provider vibe that makes girls think of pulling this shit. These guys aren't getting most of their notches on the same night or first date either. You can use these guys for your own ends too. Often in the club I'll tell a girl to ask a random guy to buy her and her "friend" drinks, and then give me the other one. Most girls will pussy out, but if you get a devious one it can be a lot of fun.

Post: #62

Here's how I handle it.

My initial invitation is always to meet for drinks.

First drinks come. I pay cash. I only run tabs on dates with girls I know and have already banged.

During the first drink I assess whether she is bangable, and whether I can probably do so on the first or second date. If I don't like her or she me, I bail after the first drink.

If it's going well or a least neutral, I will pay for a second round of drinks.If things take a turn for the worse, I will bail after the second drink. If it continues going well, and I'm hungry, I will ask if she wants to get an appetizer about the time we're ready for a third drink. I will choose one and let her choose one. Apps in my area run $7 for something simple like chips n dip or pita and hummus to $12 for the fancy ones. Average is about $10, so it's $20 for food, plus drinks, comes to about $50, which I consider the cost of doing business. I average about one meetup a week, so it's not a big expense.

I've only had one dinner whore in the last 3-4 years. She was able to take advantage of me only because she had huge tits that I really wanted to play with. She got 2-3 dinners out of me with no bang; when she started texting me telling me places "we should go for dinner" I told her to fuck off. Dinner whores I suspect are mostly a problem in major cities where there is a near endless supply of chumps to go through, a lot of restaurants, and many girls who want to live outside their budget.

I don't think a blanket "no food" rule is the way to go. Take it on a case by case basis. If you feel the girl is trying to play you, then of course deny her. But a girl who is experiencing hunger pangs is probably going to be cranky and not want to stay out. Plus, when girls drink on an empty stomach they tend to get really drunk really fast and not in a good way. A light meal makes the date go better. I don't think it puts you in a provider role either, eating a bite at a bar while you are drinking seems natural; it's not some big "dinner and flowers" sort of production.

Post: #63

(10-04-2014 11:26 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Appetizers are now considered food....

Appetizers are now not considered food....

Post: #64

If she orders nachos push for the notcho

Post: #65

It's evening. I need food. She needs food. I want to spend time together. Let's just both eat food together, have drinks, and enjoy our time. What, am I telling her "eat dinner then afterwards come spend time with me"?

No you're asking her to spend an evening with you, hopefully get intimate with you, yet you won't even share food with her? An evening includes eating man, that's a recipe for a good night.

Eat, drink, and be merry.

Post: #66

If logistics are good, I suspect "If you want food, you can come back to my place" or some variation would be good.

Post: #67

This thread is a fascinating debate between frame and lifestyle. Assuming that everyone here is killing pussy on the regular I wonder if the correct answer is somewhere between frame and lifestyle.

In my eyes the guys being firm with their frame, sticking to a drinks only policy that they set out when arranging the date are going to get less bullshit and probably more quantity to time invested. Girls who are looking to take advantage are shut down by the strong no nonsense frame. Girls on the edge are pushed to go to the bedroom quickly by the very premise of the date. Everything about the drinks and bounce to my place experience is screaming that this is a sexual relationship first, with just enough plausible deniablety to keep from spooking the cat.

The fellas pushing for a more devil may care lifestyle prominent date probably get more girls in absolute amounts, and I suspect that higher quality girls are more likely to go for this style of dating. Top end girls already have fuck buddies and beta simps to spare, an aggressive player with a lifestyle that excites her is probably going to give her the tingles.

Really top end thread guys, for a guy who is predominantly getting girls through night game and passive streams this has been an eye opener for how I'm going to have to evolve my game when I leave uni and get too old for shitty dance clubs.

Post: #68

(10-04-2014 10:56 AM)The Wire Wrote:  Low and behold she didn't order any food, we got one more drink and then she invited me back to her apartment.

(10-04-2014 10:56 AM)The Wire Wrote:  I'm kind of curious if other guys run into the food issue or am I playing this out wrong? Is this an American thing where women need to shovel food into their mouths past a normal dinnertime?

Yeah, you definitely have a foreign sensibility.

Americans will eat any time and any place.

WIA

Post: #69

(10-04-2014 11:43 PM)MrXY Wrote:  Here's how I handle it.

My initial invitation is always to meet for drinks.

First drinks come. I pay cash. I only run tabs on dates with girls I know and have already banged.

During the first drink I assess whether she is bangable, and whether I can probably do so on the first or second date. If I don't like her or she me, I bail after the first drink.

If it's going well or a least neutral, I will pay for a second round of drinks.If things take a turn for the worse, I will bail after the second drink. If it continues going well, and I'm hungry, I will ask if she wants to get an appetizer about the time we're ready for a third drink. I will choose one and let her choose one. Apps in my area run $7 for something simple like chips n dip or pita and hummus to $12 for the fancy ones. Average is about $10, so it's $20 for food, plus drinks, comes to about $50, which I consider the cost of doing business. I average about one meetup a week, so it's not a big expense.


I don't think a blanket "no food" rule is the way to go. Take it on a case by case basis.

Some good stuff in this thread. So far my biggest thing I've taken from you and Tuthmosis is an obvious one....and it's don't open tab. Much more flexibility and it's sets the tone even more in my favor.

I do agree it is case by case but I really try and run a tight logistical game when it comes to weekday meetups with girls by my apartment. I can't meet them up too early or it's a dinner date and I can't meet them too late or I run into the "I have to work early" cock block.

I have 10 bar/restaurants within walking distance and I've found that on average I can't bounce her back to my place on the first date if I can't keep the date progressing forward fast enough. Getting appetizers stalls my game and locks me into a particular place. Instead of sitting at a table eating a giant plate of hummus, I could be bouncing my girl to the next bar for a drink building a lot more comfort.

One idea to really drill it in a girl's head I just thought of is to do the standard invite for drinks around 8pm but a few hours before the date I'll slip in some bullshit story that I have a work dinner beforehand(hence why I'm asking her to meet me for drinks). That way I can drill it in her head that she needs to be a big girl and feed herself.

Post: #70

This is a great thread. I used to have the "appetizer" grenade rolled at me every now and then. Not so much now, for some reason, since I don't deal with American women as much anymore.

But it definitely is a shit test, and a subtle form of disrespect. It's an attempt to hijack the interaction and make it about food. Decent chicks don't do this shit. My deflection methods used to be (and still are) the following:

1. Say that you "already ate" and that you're full. Deliver this with a stern look, and she'll sense the feeling of disapproval. This works, but is a bit evasive.

2. Simply say "no." A direct refusal establishes boundaries. This is the best response. I actually once told a girl that "We're not ordering appetizers, just drinks." And that was the end of the issue. If she won't accept your frame, and won't submit to your will, then you were screwed anyway. And she was just using you for food.

3. Take food out of the equation. Take her to a place (coffee shop, wine bar, etc.) where there is little or no food. Tuthmosis mentioned this and this is a tried-and-true method.

And that's pretty much it. The bottom line is that this all comes down to: (a) defining boundaries, and (b) frame control.

You have to stand your ground in a firm but polite away. But the great thing is that when you do this, the power dynamic in the interaction shifts in your favor in a big way. You can just feel the "whoosh" of ego deflation in her eyes. She'll be worried about what you think of her from then on, and she'll feel some repressed "fat guilt."

Got to do things like that to keep them off balance. I was on a date last night (just drinks!) and off-handedly commented to this chick about how rough her hands looked. She had been blathering about her fitness routine with weights and it was a good way to cut her down to size.

Post: #71

(10-04-2014 11:33 PM)Deluge Wrote:  I know a guy, very good looking, reasonably tall and charming with social circle with a lot of hotties, he's basically at the top of what people call the food chain. He complained to me once about how much money he spends on dates, especially since most of his girls never end up going anywhere. His typical date is taking a 7 or 8 out for the classic "dinner and a movie" dropping at least $60-$70 and the most he'd get is making out in his car while dropping them home, with no guarantee of seeing them again.

The interesting thing is that he told me his girls would never offer to split the bill, whereas on my (drink) dates most of the the time they will at least make the gesture. This confused me because like I said he is very good looking, not the type of dude you'd expect to be taken for a ride all the time. Meanwhile even when I've taken girls I actually like out for dinner and a movie on a later date, EVERY single time they have payed for the movie after I payed for dinner. I've never once had a girl try and pull the appetizer move on a drinks date either, I didn't know that was even a thing till I read this thread.

I think some dudes just give off the "nice guy" provider vibe that makes girls think of pulling this shit. These guys aren't getting most of their notches on the same night or first date either. You can use these guys for your own ends too. Often in the club I'll tell a girl to ask a random guy to buy her and her "friend" drinks, and then give me the other one. Most girls will pussy out, but if you get a devious one it can be a lot of fun.

Yes, that is very true. I knew a similar guy in NYC who got played by girls a lot. He was a good looking dude with style, from a very rich family. He got a very cool apartment - of course paid for by his parents. He was kind of a nice guy though and didn't have a killer instinct, because he never had to fight for anything and always got whatever he wanted. He told me that he was trying to hook up with models, but was often stuck with paying huge bills without anything happening. He actually told me that once he went out with a model and she brought her female friends along, and at the end of the night he was stuck with a bill of around $ 1000, and the girls just disappeared. But objectively this guy was very desirable - as I said, he was good looking, well dressed, rich, and had an amazing apt.

Post: #72

But yeah agree, eating on dates is counterproductive. However, this issue has never come up for me in the last 5 years. Before, I sometimes took girls out to dinner, but quickly learned that this doesn't make any sense at all. Just go to bars where they don't serve any aps. Besides, I think it's quite unattractive if girls order food on a night out. It's just unfeminine somehow.

Post: #73

Post: #74

Post: #75

(10-05-2014 03:03 PM)Dusty Wrote:  

^
What the hell IS that?