Post: #151

@kosko

Nobody cares abt Palestinians?

In my own hometown alone i've seen two mass demonstraties.

Post: #152

(07-18-2014 09:03 AM)kosko Wrote:  Nations apologize all the time for fuck ups, well accept America. When the USA shot down the Iran flight in 1998 it never apologized for it and just tossed money at the problem to try to make it disappear.

They eventually did admit to it... sort of. They made up a psychological condition called "scenario fulfilment," which you won't find in any medical journal. In plain English, it was a bunch of trigger-happy marines with little oversight who just wanted to fire some missiles and "save the fuckin' day, yeah!"

Quote from Wikipedia:

Quote:When questioned in a 2000 BBC documentary, the U.S. government stated in a written answer that they believed the incident may have been caused by a simultaneous psychological condition amongst the 18 bridge crew of the Vincennes called 'scenario fulfillment', which is said to occur when persons are under pressure. In such a situation, the men will carry out a training scenario, believing it to be reality while ignoring sensory information that contradicts the scenario. In the case of this incident, the scenario was an attack by a lone military aircraft.

Also, there is a lot of bullshit being spread in the Ukrainian and Western media. They keep accusing Russia of supplying military equipment to the DPR. If that's the case, where is the evidence? Everything else about this conflict has been caught on video in minute detail... why not the equipment crossing the Russian border?

The reason the US has to make up a BS story about Russia supplying arms is that the "terrorists" are actually locals. The military in the South-East no longer takes orders from Kiev.

Post: #153

Me being Dutch I can state that this has huge impact on our society. With just 16 million people, everybody hears of somebody that was killed. Even a member of the senate died in the crash.

Post: #154

(07-18-2014 09:40 AM)CPTR Wrote:  Me being Dutch I can state that this has huge impact on our society. With just 16 million people, everybody hears of somebody that was killed. Even a member of the senate died in the crash.

It is horrible that the Dutch lost so many innocent people due to some stupid political/military stunt in East Ukraine. Australia lost 28.

Post: #155

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-upd...6993758257

Watch the video in the link above which shows the flight paths at the time this plane was shot down. At 23 seconds, you will notice two new planes enter the frame at the same location as MH317. MH317 goes off the radar soon after.

My theory is that the Ukrainians shot them down with fighter jets, knowing that Russia would be blamed for it. Putin is painted to be a monster while Ukraine attempt to justify Western involvement.

Post: #156

(07-18-2014 09:40 AM)DaveR Wrote:  In plain English, it was a bunch of trigger-happy marines with little oversight who just wanted to fire some missiles

Navy boys, not Marines. They thought the airplane was diving, when the airplane was climbing. They also thought the airliner was an Iranian F-14 Tomcat.

Post: #157

Some of you guys blaming Russia and the separatists are too cocksure of what happened based on initial reports when initial reports can't even get something as simple as the # of Americans on the plane correct. First it was 23 and now it appears no Americans were on it. I admire the confidence, though.

"Malaysia Airlines said on Friday it had determined the nationalities of all but four of the 298 victims aboard its flight MH17 that crashed in eastern Ukraine.

The airline said the flight had 189 Dutch passengers, 44 Malaysian, 27 Australian, 12 Indonesian, nine British, four German, four Belgian, three Filipino, one Canadian and one New Zealander on board as well as four of as yet unidentified nationalities."

Post: #158

DAMN.

I feel bad for all families for have lost loved ones, regardless if it was a flight, car accident, illness, etc. I carve out idiots, they had it coming.

But this woman lost someone on each Malaysian flight.

Quote:Australian woman loses brother on MH370 and stepdaughter on MH17

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...-MH17.html

Post: #159

Can someone explain what video was posted before the crash that people keep referring to?

Post: #160

(07-18-2014 07:20 AM)CPTR Wrote:  Why is this becoming a political discussion instead of a memorial to the 300 victims?

(07-18-2014 09:40 AM)CPTR Wrote:  Me being Dutch I can state that this has huge impact on our society. With just 16 million people, everybody hears of somebody that was killed. Even a member of the senate died in the crash.

Considering these were CPTR's last two comments, I wonder why he got banned. If an event that happened affected a lot of people around you and your community, I'm sure one would feel the same way.

Post: #161

(07-18-2014 08:07 AM)Sherman Wrote:  I was looking for some news story on how this impacted the families of the Netherlands. I couldn't find anything in the US media. Nobody cares.

. . .I just saw four stories on the Dutch people that died on different news channels...FOUR.

Sherman, plz. . . just stop while you're ahead.

Post: #162

Did Gavrilo Princip shoot down the plane? I hope not.

The parallels are there. Out of control nationalists backed by major powers cause big incident and suck everyone into escalation.

Post: #163

(07-18-2014 11:43 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 07:20 AM)CPTR Wrote:  Why is this becoming a political discussion instead of a memorial to the 300 victims?

(07-18-2014 09:40 AM)CPTR Wrote:  Me being Dutch I can state that this has huge impact on our society. With just 16 million people, everybody hears of somebody that was killed. Even a member of the senate died in the crash.

Considering these were CPTR's last two comments, I wonder why he got banned. If an event that happened affected a lot of people around you and your community, I'm sure one would feel the same way.

My guess is that he took a swipe at everyone completely clueless as to why this thread exists. The thread and OP is not about memorial condonlences. Roosh said earlier this week that newbies are not allowed to spread hate and drama. RVF tends to be like the ancient Greeks citizens and assemblymen standing around capital debating, sharing philosophy, and knowledge with each other. Almost as if no topic is totally taboo. It's pretty obvious he did not lurk long enough to figure that out. I do feel bad for his losses though. It does scare me straight though. I hope I make it before I drop my giant datasheet.

Post: #164

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18...alaysian-j

Quote: Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet

Earlier, when we commented in the abnormality in the flight path of flight MH-17 we said that "perhaps before coming to "certain" conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?" The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.

It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."

What happens to the recordings next is completely unknown. What is known is that any hope of getting an undoctored explanation why the plane flew as it did is forever gone.

It also means that any hope of actually working with facts instead of emotional appeals, and getting to the bottom of the Malaysian airline tragedy, resides in what may be recorded by the black box, whose location right now is now exactly clear. From the Independent:

"Ukraine's emergency services have found two black boxes at the crash site of the downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, the governor of eastern Ukraine's Donetsk region has been quoted as saying.

"Two black boxes were found by our emergency services. I have no information on where these boxes are at the moment," Kostyantyn Batovsky told the Interfax-Ukraine news agency.

Pro-Russian separatists in the region said on Thursday they had found one black box when the Malaysian airliner came down between Krasni Luch in Luhansk region and Shakhtarsk in the neighbouring region of Donetsk.

The Interfax-Ukraine news agency had claimed the first black box has been sent to Moscow for analysis, the BBC reported. The news agency now reports a second black box has been recovered at the crash site.

Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has been quoted as saying Russia does not plan to take the "black box" flight recorders from downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in territory held by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine,

However, separatist leader Aleksandr Borodai told the Associated Press: "No black boxes have been found ... We hope that experts will track them down and create a picture of what has happened."

A spokesman for the Emergencies Ministry in Kiev declined to comment on the report.

In other words, even more fact-free confusion and speculation which is just what a propaganda-based reporting system needs.

And so, just like in the case of flight MH-370, what actually happened with MH-17 may never be known.

Post: #165

(07-18-2014 11:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Did Gavrilo Princip shoot down the plane? I hope not.

The parallels are there. Out of control nationalists backed by major powers cause big incident and suck everyone into escalation.

Well if it escalates out of control he might as well had risen from the grave to do it.

Thing is that conventional warfare was changed permanently after the Atomic Age. The end of standard history (Francis Fukuyama) and all that stuff. Containment Strategy, Mutually Assured Destruction, political realism (Leo Strauss, Kenneth Waltz, and Henry Kissenger etc.)

If there was 1,500 Americans on that plane, we still would not fight Russia outright in a declaration of war.

The interesting thing is that all of this fucking drama is over SAM missle shield beef in the first place! The Russians will not tolerate the Patriot missile system being placed right next to their border. Rightfully so, because if could possible nullify their ability to send ICBMs to any place on earth to protect their own sovereignty. The US greedily wants them in the Ukraine. The Russian's S-400 and S-1000 systems are supposedly even better than the US's Patriot Systems, but they are not trying to push them into the lands of our enemies.

So when Nuclear talks come up, Putin takes issue with more Patriot being set up all over Europe while Obama is trying to get them to lower the number of their missile stockpile they have at the same time spreading more Patriots.

All of it seems crazy but if you think about it, its a fight for leverage and also emergency planning in case a nuclear war breaks out, can either side destroy the other while being able to defend against the other's MIRV's and ICBMs.

Post: #166

(07-18-2014 11:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Did Gavrilo Princip shoot down the plane? I hope not.

The parallels are there. Out of control nationalists backed by major powers cause big incident and suck everyone into escalation.

I've been saying this for a few years now. The political climate in the Middle East and Eastern Europe is rapidly approaching that of pre-WWI Europe. Russia is (again) at someone's throat, and it's only a question of how violently the West responds to this airliner being shot down.

Personally, I think that you could make a fair case for either side having done it. A Russian missile system accurately describes what the Ukrainians have as well.

Post: #167

Delete

Post: #168

http://rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/

Quote: 10 questions Russia wants Ukraine to answer

TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES

1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?

2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?

3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?

4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?

5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?

6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?

7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?

8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?

9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?

10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.

Post: #169

Surely this forum should have higher standards than to use Russia Today as a source?

Post: #170

(07-18-2014 05:18 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Surely this forum should have higher standards than to use Russia Today as a source?

Even the Daily Mail has decent content from time to time...

Post: #171

(07-18-2014 05:18 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Surely this forum should have higher standards than to use Russia Today as a source?

Hey man, there's always ZeroHedge!

Post: #172

(07-18-2014 05:18 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Surely this forum should have higher standards than to use Russia Today as a source?

Interesting, vicious. Surely the source changes or alters the meaning behind the questions and Kiev is an innocent bystander that shouldn't be looked at critically? That's quite the western point of view you have. I'll be sure to check out cnbc or something like that so they can tell me what to think or give me a superficial view on things. Or maybe you can point me to the sources you approve of?

Cattle Rustler, noted that this is the 2nd time in 2 days you've made a passive aggressive childish dig at me. Moderators note that this kid is mad about things that happened in the chatroom. Tell him to leave that stuff in the chatroom and not bring it over to the forum.

Post: #173

Article: Ukraine claims victory in rebel stronghold, Associated Press, July 5, 2014.

Photo:



Caption: "Ukrainian government forces maneuver antiaircraft missile launchers Buk as they are transported north-west from Slavyansk, eastern Ukraine Friday, July 4, 2014."

Conclusion: the Ukrainian military was operating a Buk SAM system in the Donbas area only 2 weeks ago.

Post: #174

(07-18-2014 03:38 AM)Maciano Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 03:27 AM)mastauser Wrote:  Im Dutch and some people from my hometown and people that my younger brother knows died yesterday. 154 Dutch fatalities.....

173 now...

update: a cute girl from my high school died

Post: #175

(07-18-2014 06:02 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 05:18 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Surely this forum should have higher standards than to use Russia Today as a source?

Interesting, vicious. Surely the source changes or alters the meaning behind the questions and Kiev is an innocent bystander that shouldn't be looked at critically? That's quite the western point of view you have. I'll be sure to check out cnbc or something like that so they can tell me what to think or give me a superficial view on things. Or maybe you can point me to the sources you approve of?

People using RT as a source are either;
A) Ignorant of RT being fully sponsored by the Russian government and little more than a bullhorn for the Kremlin
B) Aware of this yet ignore it since RT's press releases validate their predetermined world view.

Whichever the case it reflects poorly on said persons ability to partake in a debate.