Post: #126

Some gems from http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plan...h-ukraine/

Quote:The militias fighting in eastern Ukraine against the government troops have no weapons systems that could have shot down the Malaysia Airlines plane on Thursday, the General Prosecutor of Ukraine, Vitaly Yaryoma, stated citing a military report submitted to President Petro Poroshenko.

Earlier there were reports that the militia had captured a Buk missile launcher, which could have done it, but Kiev insisted that the system was out of order and could not be repaired by the militia.

Straight from the mouth of a Ukrainian official.

Quote: According to unconfirmed reports from Australian news outlets, over a hundred of the plane’s passengers were heading to the 20th International AIDS Conference which is scheduled to start on Sunday in Melbourne, Australia.

Uh oh, probably going to have to listen to the Russia is backwards and mean because they're anti-gay and they shot down a plane because of it.

Post: #127

(07-18-2014 02:11 AM)Big Nilla Wrote:  Some gems from http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plan...h-ukraine/

Quote:The militias fighting in eastern Ukraine against the government troops have no weapons systems that could have shot down the Malaysia Airlines plane on Thursday, the General Prosecutor of Ukraine, Vitaly Yaryoma, stated citing a military report submitted to President Petro Poroshenko.

Earlier there were reports that the militia had captured a Buk missile launcher, which could have done it, but Kiev insisted that the system was out of order and could not be repaired by the militia.

Straight from the mouth of a Ukrainian official.

If you read between the lines the insinuation is that Russia supplied the separatists with the system.

Post: #128

(07-18-2014 01:42 AM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 01:13 AM)Maciano Wrote:  

(07-17-2014 08:28 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(07-17-2014 08:19 PM)Carlos100 Wrote:  

(07-17-2014 07:01 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  I don't think it fundamentally changes anything.

It gives the West justification for escalated involvement and makes it harder for Russia to justify their involvement if the separatists are culpable.

Yep, I understand. But I don't think it will change anything on the ground. We'll see. Things on the ground can change fast. However, Kiev is certainly a long way off in regards to winning even though they appear to have the separatists boxed into a little corner.

The problem the USA has is Europe wants no part of this (justifiably).

Of course it changes everything.

Putin can't maintain or build alliances now. He'll be isolated. EU, US & UN will be all furious -- deservedly -- and tell their sanctions were morally just, even step it up. The result will be that Putin will be more isolated, he already had little maneuvering space with US & Germany picking the other side. Countries like China & India won't want to offend western euro countries over this.

300 innocent people isn't an accident like any other.

No, doesn't really change things on the ground or the fact Russia will still defend it's interests. All it may chance is the tactics with how Russia defends itself against encroachment.

The west likes to pump out the propaganda about Russia being isolated from the rest of the world, but I'm not seeing it. It's superficial. The rest of the world can see through the US propaganda and agitation. They understand Russia does have a legitimate interest in Ukraine that is being encroached on by the USA. Most are afraid to confront the USA on it now, but once it collapses you'll see how few friends the USA truly has. And the collapse isn't far off. Russia just needs to hang in there a little while longer. Russians are much better equipped at suffering than Americans and Euros.

Besides, any real sanctions will boomerang back on the west; mainly Europe. Plus Russia can simply do little stunts to agitate oil higher which will hurt the west while helping Russia.

Putin is patiently trying to pull Europe away from the USA's suicidal foreign policies (for Russia and Europe's benefit), but he's pivoting towards Asia since he can't trust continental Europe to do the right thing right now in the face of Anglo-American pressure. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it.

The American govt/elites are great and masterful bullies with friends and foes, but that's starting to come to an end thanks mainly to Putin and the arrogance on how the USA is treating (manipulating) it's allies (France/Germany/Bulgaria just to name a few countries with recent banking issues / fines courtesy of the good ol' USA).

The US dollar as the reserve currency is on life support and now the IMF will have a BRICs bank as competition. The US is desperate which is why they're pushing the pace on chaos around the world.

There's no Putin master plan nor will Russia ever be really important again. He rules an oil-driven oligarch-run multiculturalist empire with brute force and is dependent on amateur cowboys who have now created an international scandal. That's his "power" base. His main modus operandi seems to be to frustrate US expansionism, he sometimes succeeds in this, but Russia is unsuited to vill the void.

Any idiot yelling false flag is pissing on reality staring you in your face: dead-eyed separatists tried to fight for autonomy without a clue and now risk even Russia's support over this tragedy. Would any of you support imbeciles like this? I doubt Putin will, he seemed genuinely annoyed whenever he's confronted with terrorists, buffoons and incompetence.

A girl at my fitness club told me one of her hockey teammates was on that plane. She's dead now. Fuck those vulgar Kozak separatists and their shit cause.

Post: #129

Im Dutch and some people from my hometown and people that my younger brother knows died yesterday. 154 Dutch fatalities.....

Post: #130

It will be interesting to see what the response to this latest crisis will be. So far, the "sanctions" have been pretty weak.

Even the latest "sanctions" by the USA are really not that harsh: http://nationalinterest.org/feature/brea...play-10908

The thing to keep an eye on will be if the Kremlin changes its posture regarding the rebels. So far, it hasn't (at least in the Russian media) and the fighting in the East continues.

Lastly, of course, is the problem of whether or not Putin can even convince the separatists to stop fighting. If he can't, sanctions or no sanctions, the fighting in the East will continue.

This is a bit of a pickle for Putin and it will be very intriguing as to whether he can salvage this situation, because if he can then he is truly a skilled operator.

Post: #131

(07-18-2014 03:27 AM)mastauser Wrote:  Im Dutch and some people from my hometown and people that my younger brother knows died yesterday. 154 Dutch fatalities.....

173 now...

Post: #132

Might be a stupid question - but how can the US justify putting sanctions on Russia because of this? Unless Putin gave the direct order, how are they able to punish a nation based off the actions of one or a few people?

Post: #133

(07-18-2014 03:42 AM)big poppa Wrote:  Might be a stupid question - but how can the US justify putting sanctions on Russia because of this? Unless Putin gave the direct order, how are they able to punish a nation based off the actions of one or a few people?

The US hasn't put sanctions because of the crash.....it places sanctions based on the conflict.


In other news.....we will never know the truth of what happened since the black box is in Moscow. Putin cannot have the have the blame be placed on his proxy rebels.

Post: #134

(07-18-2014 03:42 AM)big poppa Wrote:  Might be a stupid question - but how can the US justify putting sanctions on Russia because of this? Unless Putin gave the direct order, how are they able to punish a nation based off the actions of one or a few people?

They didn't (yet).

They enforced sanctions last week, because Russia gave old weaponry to pro-Russian rebels. Weaponry they, apparantly, put to use.

Post: #135

(07-18-2014 03:42 AM)big poppa Wrote:  Might be a stupid question - but how can the US justify putting sanctions on Russia because of this? Unless Putin gave the direct order, how are they able to punish a nation based off the actions of one or a few people?

My guess is they are going to say that the separatists got the surface-to-air missiles from Russia. However, there is evidence that the separatists overran an airbase that had Buk missiles in Eastern Ukraine.

There is also a tape floating around that supposedly shows the rebels talking about shooting down the plane, but it is very suspect: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17...ight-mh-17

In the end, that is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that this tragedy makes it hard for the Kremlin to support the rebels indirectly without catching flack that it is supporting "terrorists."

Post: #136

The tape was made the day before the flight got shot down. Another thing a spanish air controller spotted 2 Ukrainian air force jets following the flight

Post: #137

(07-18-2014 12:26 AM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 12:04 AM)Carlos100 Wrote:  There are going to be some serious ramifications, I think, for this particular plane being shot down, because so many Western Europeans were on board with connections to the Western political and academic hierarchy. For example, prominent Dutch AIDS researcher Joep Lange and his wife were passengers.

This AIDS researcher is an important political person in Europe?

I can save Europe a lot of money on research... don't be a homo or bi guy and don't have sex with them. Poof, almost no AIDS then.

This guy was trying to cure AIDS. I shouldn't have to explain that that gives him almost saint-like status in secular Western culture, rightly or wrongly. It wouldn't surprise me to learn years from now that Putin punched a hole in the wall of his dacha upon hearing the news of this shootdown, because he was smart enough to quickly realize that he just lost Eastern Ukraine.

Post: #138

(07-18-2014 04:55 AM)Carlos100 Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 12:26 AM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 12:04 AM)Carlos100 Wrote:  There are going to be some serious ramifications, I think, for this particular plane being shot down, because so many Western Europeans were on board with connections to the Western political and academic hierarchy. For example, prominent Dutch AIDS researcher Joep Lange and his wife were passengers.

This AIDS researcher is an important political person in Europe?

I can save Europe a lot of money on research... don't be a homo or bi guy and don't have sex with them. Poof, almost no AIDS then.

This guy was trying to cure AIDS. I shouldn't have to explain that that gives him almost saint-like status in secular Western culture, rightly or wrongly. It wouldn't surprise me to learn years from now that Putin punched a hole in the wall of his dacha upon hearing the news of this shootdown, because he was smart enough to quickly realize that he just lost Eastern Ukraine.

I don't think the plan ever was to annex Eastern Ukraine.

The plan was force Ukraine to accept federalization in the Southeast in conjunction with a ceasefire.

Not sure if this is still attainable, but that was the plan.

Post: #139

The klitschkos just shared this on Twitter. Apparently The Sun already knows who's to blame...

   

Post: #140

Anything on the front page of any newspaper is skewed from the truth. So no it isn't Putin's fault.

How I hate newspapers these days.

Post: #141

(07-17-2014 10:19 PM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  So are u saying that only trucking and delivery companies use GPS to track their trucks and tell them the location of their fleet? But somehow airlines wouldnt find that information useful ?

Trucks move over land, where they can use the existing cellular network to deliver messages. There is no such network on the ocean. Do trucks report their position to satellites instead of cellular base stations?

Post: #142

Why is this becoming a political discussion instead of a memorial to the 300 victims?

Post: #143

(07-18-2014 07:20 AM)CPTR Wrote:  Why is this becoming a political discussion instead of a memorial to the 300 victims?

Post: #144

The Fred Phelps tinfoil-hats on the forum will love this...

Glenn Thomas the spokesman for the WHO also aboard the plane. He's the man that broke the news on homosexuals need to take anti HIV medicine last week.

Looks like this was nothing but a retaliation by the gay illuminati.

Post: #145

I was looking for some news story on how this impacted the families of the Netherlands. I couldn't find anything in the US media. Nobody cares. The only stories were in European news sources. When there is a tragedy in America, you literally have endless hours of interviews with victims at the scene including the kid who skinned his knee. But, with this tragedy, the only thing they care about is that Russia is to blame. Why does anyone follow this shit? The media is all about profit and gathering eyeballs for the commercials. Why waste time forming opinions based on lies?

Post: #146

Ok, I've just checked http://www.flightradar24.com/SBI922/3d864f1 , and saw several airplanes still flying over SE Ukraine! What the fuck is wrong with those people? I could understand the recklessness before ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel...agedy.html + aircraft fly over Afghanistan routinely too), but now it's just absurd that someone is willing to risk flying over there.

Post: #147

How can they explain that video being made a day before the plane went down according to its timestamp? I'm surprised it hasn't been talked about at all really.

Post: #148

(07-18-2014 08:07 AM)Sherman Wrote:  I was looking for some news story on how this impacted the families of the Netherlands. I couldn't find anything in the US media. Nobody cares. The only stories were in European news sources. When there is a tragedy in America, you literally have endless hours of interviews with victims at the scene including the kid who skinned his knee. But, with this tragedy, the only thing they care about is that Russia is to blame. Why does anyone follow this shit? The media is all about profit and gathering eyeballs for the commercials. Why waste time forming opinions based on lies?

You coudnt find? LOOL are you serious? New York Times, L.A. Times, Foxnews, CNN..etc are these enough for you?

Post: #149

(07-18-2014 01:13 AM)Maciano Wrote:  

(07-17-2014 08:28 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(07-17-2014 08:19 PM)Carlos100 Wrote:  

(07-17-2014 07:01 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(07-17-2014 06:53 PM)Carlos100 Wrote:  If it's true that the separatists claimed responsibility then quickly retracted it, then that's fairly incriminating. If so, that kind of pulls the rug out from under Putin if he was hoping for a moral high-ground reason to provide more overt assistance to the separatists. Unless they really screw up, I think Kiev may have just won this thing.

I don't think it fundamentally changes anything.

It gives the West justification for escalated involvement and makes it harder for Russia to justify their involvement if the separatists are culpable.

Yep, I understand. But I don't think it will change anything on the ground. We'll see. Things on the ground can change fast. However, Kiev is certainly a long way off in regards to winning even though they appear to have the separatists boxed into a little corner.

The problem the USA has is Europe wants no part of this (justifiably).

Of course it changes everything.

Putin can't maintain or build alliances now. He'll be isolated. EU, US & UN will be all furious -- deservedly -- and tell their sanctions were morally just, even step it up. The result will be that Putin will be more isolated, he already had little maneuvering space with US & Germany picking the other side. Countries like China & India won't want to offend western euro countries over this.

300 innocent people isn't an accident like any other.

The lives mean nothing sadly to people whom paper push and hold institutional powers. 300+ Palestinians have been mowed down in Gaza this week.. Where is the outrage?...UN? ...exactly.

It's getting to the point where this is a token thing. Every summer the USA scrambles to push forward a war campaign which has the end goal of severely weakening Russia or Iran. For the past 2 summers it was Syria and since that is done now Ukraine is the chief focus. Every summer they push new propaganda towards this. It's just to common now.

Dosnt any sky remember how he dubious claim of a mass murder by Assad was made up with supposed chemical weapons from Russia? This was almost a year ago barley.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nati...story.html

Military runs on the same schedule, spring and summer is high season for operations as they don't like to work in the cold or wet conditions of fall. Every year from May Day to the middle of August the USA always pushes something.

The fact that USA officials are blaming Russia means that they are not to blame. USA officials have zero credibility. None. With a track record of lies going back 10 years now solid.

Plus in the end people forget about simple humanistic qualities. If his was truly a fuck up by Russia why wouldn't they pander and apologize?, aid in investigations? Etc? The area is a war zone and the plane which is flown by a shoddy company, that was flying in banned airspace. If it was truly Russia it would be easy as hell to pander and apologize saying it was a mistake. Nations apologize all the time for fuck ups, well accept America. When the USA shot down the Iran flight in 1998 it never apologized for it and just tossed money at the problem to try to make it disappear.

This isn't some sinister or hidden chess game, as sometimes the best moves are made in the public eye.

In all of this Kiev seems to be the ones changing their stories and not being honest. So hard up for cash the Ukraines are I wouldn't even doubt if they were arm wrangled to put on a stunt like this in exchange for some money.

Both the USA/NATO and Russia would likely have the tech to monitor the missle deployment. One side would rather not share that data, while the other would wait until they are pinned with this, near the point of "retaliation" to roll it out. One side is calling for a objective investigation, the other side is pointing fingers with no proof.

Post: #150

(07-18-2014 08:34 AM)HighStakes Wrote:  You coudnt find? LOOL are you serious? New York Times, L.A. Times, Foxnews, CNN..etc are these enough for you?

Hes talking about a specific aspect of the incident, not the incident itself. Reread the post.