Post: #51

I'll admit it too: I was wrong about The Mating Grounds.

I wrote a post, linked earlier in this thread, splitting hairs about whether TMG was plagiarizing from this community or not. But who cares? The real issue is: Max and Miller disrespected this community, and the appropriate response to an attack, is to circle the wagons and shoot to kill.

Maybe I was clouded because Tucker Max was a major influence on me when I was a teenager, and it was disappointing to see that he was ripping off my buddies, and/or selling out to political correctness. I wanted to believe that Max and Miller would see the light, build a great resource, and eventually come around to doing it honestly and ethically. But it looks like they're committed to pretending this community doesn't exist while they build Good Men Project 2.0.

The Manosphere/Red Pill/RVF community has had an incredibly positive impact on my life, while asking nothing in return. When a couple of carpetbagging cunts like Tucker Max and Geoffrey Miller came in and tried to dismiss you, I should have been on the front line. I owe this to you all: I should have taken a hard stand against Max and Miller when they attacked us, and I apologize for not doing so. I also want to say that I appreciate guys like MikeCF, Matt Forney, and Samseau who called me out.

Moving forward, I'm open to suggestions on the topic of burning TMG to the ground and salting the earth.

Post: #52

^^ Co-signed. Put it better than I could.

Post: #53

Hold up. What's the story behind Tucker Max's old forum? Anyone know?

Post: #54

(07-16-2014 10:39 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Hold up. What's the story behind Tucker Max's old forum? Anyone know?

Tucker had a forum called the Tucker Max Message Boards that was very well-moderated and similar to this forum, except that they allowed women and were focused more on entertainment and stories than manosphere discussion. He shut it down when he discovered how obsessed people were getting with it, spending all their time on it, etc. and wrote a post on it that's somewhere out there. The shut down occurred shortly after the failure of his movie and Rudius Media, so it might have been related.

Post: #55

(07-16-2014 10:39 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Hold up. What's the story behind Tucker Max's old forum? Anyone know?

Quote:"It is nearly seven years to the day since SlingBlade encouraged me to put up a forum on my site where we could talk shit to people, and in that time, this place has grown with me as I have gone from some random asshole with a website to a famous asshole with a #1 best selling book and movie.

This message board has been many other things to me over the years: Hilarious, enlightening, encouraging, distracting, frustrating, and above all, entertaining. I am glad it ran for as long as it did, and the community that grew up around it provided much value to many people beyond myself, and for that, I am very thankful.

But all things must eventually end, and for this board, that time is now. As helpful as this place was in it's time, I no longer have the time or desire to put in the effort necessary to maintain it.

That being said, various people who post regularly here have decided to spin their own niche communities off and keep going. I've encouraged them to do this, I think they are all capable of running an online community and I wish them the best of luck. If the subjects of these boards interest you, I encourage you to join and participate, as these will all be intelligent and well-run boards...

Though the message board that I started is shutting down, this does not mean I am retiring or stopping writing or anything like that. Quite the opposite. I am hard at work not only on my next book, Assholes Finish First, but another book that I will announce soon, and I have many other projects that will come to fruition over the next few years."

Post: #56

RE: the death of the Tucker Max Message Board and the failure of his movie being related, they definitely are.

Tucker Max is a clinical narcissist. Up until his movie bombed, he was able to stay in a comforting false reality of his own creation. When I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell failed, Tucker's false identity was torn to pieces. Confronted with the stark reality of his screw-up, he reacted with narcissistic rage: attempting to destroy the evidence of his failure (the Tucker Max Message Board and by extension all his fans).

There's a site out there that collected quotes from Tucker from his message board posts. In the last months, he was in full-on meltdown mode, getting into shouting matches with his readers and desperately trying to blame everyone for the movie's failure (the director, the production company, the stars) but himself.

To me, the most telling part of the ordeal was the fact that Tucker didn't merely close his forum, he blocked its content from public view. He did the online equivalent of book burning: purging all the evidence that Tucker Max was just a one-hit wonder who couldn't evolve.

Post: #57

(07-16-2014 11:54 AM)Matt Forney Wrote:  Tucker Max is a clinical narcissist.

Correct. He is taking a beating but he can't say anything, either.

In his view he is above all of us, and you never respond to sites made below you.

So he has to sit and brood and fume and rage.

Post: #58

(07-16-2014 11:54 AM)Matt Forney Wrote:  RE: the death of the Tucker Max Message Board and the failure of his movie being related, they definitely are.

Tucker Max is a clinical narcissist. Up until his movie bombed, he was able to stay in a comforting false reality of his own creation. When I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell failed, Tucker's false identity was torn to pieces. Confronted with the stark reality of his screw-up, he reacted with narcissistic rage: attempting to destroy the evidence of his failure (the Tucker Max Message Board and by extension all his fans).

There's a site out there that collected quotes from Tucker from his message board posts. In the last months, he was in full-on meltdown mode, getting into shouting matches with his readers and desperately trying to blame everyone for the movie's failure (the director, the production company, the stars) but himself.

To me, the most telling part of the ordeal was the fact that Tucker didn't merely close his forum, he blocked its content from public view. He did the online equivalent of book burning: purging all the evidence that Tucker Max was just a one-hit wonder who couldn't evolve.

Yeah - they seem to have collected a lot of his posts and almost everything is about the movie. He claims that he had no control over the creative process, but in earlier posts before the clear movie failure he was thinking that it would become a big success rivalling the Wedding Crashers.

http://www.quotabletuckermax.com/

March 2009

Quote:My point? I'm not just blindly wishing for success for this movie. I am telling you it will be a success, and most importantly, I am telling you WHY it will be a success before the fact, and you can judge me by these predictions after the fact.

If it turns out that this thing rides to a 210 million dollar box office based on it word of mouth starting in the 18-24 year old age group and in select internet circles and is regaled as a classic comedy--then I was right, for the right reasons, and I should be considered an expert. I called it before it happens, exactly how it would happen. If it crashes and burns, then I was completely wrong and I have no idea what I am talking about and shouldn't be making movies. And it if does something in between--say 80 million, and gets a demographic profile I didn't predict--well, I was still kinda wrong. Being right for the wrong reasons is mostly luck, and I'll need to tease out what was me and what was luck. Being right for the right reasons means you are probably onto something.

Quote:September 29, 2010

Well, the big thing that I would say would be that the co-writer Nils [Parker] and I would direct it. We had a director on the last one, and he just didn't - we thought he understood the vision, and we thought he got it, and it turns out he didn't...it seems like a little thing, but it makes a difference if you understand movies. Like, I think the movie is lit really poorly. I think it looks like - you know, I mean, we spent $7 million on the movie, which is not a small amount - it's not a huge amount for a movie by any stretch, but definitely more than enough to make a movie look professional, you know? And that version looked very indie and very gritty, and I just thought it looked like sh*t. Like, it didn't look good. And that's the director's fault...he fuc*ed up; he lit it incorrectly. And that seems like a small thing, but it makes a huge difference. Like, that's one thing I would do differently. And I don't know, there's probably a million other little things that we would do differently, but that's, like, the big thing.

I will probably go through the movie a bit, but his perception of what constitutes a good and successful movie is just completely delusional. And now his current podcast is going half Blue Pill.

Here another site: http://tuckermaxdoucebag.blogspot.com/

Though of course almost all is hearsay, the difference between attacks on the likes of Roosh, Danger&Play, Matt Forney or even Heartiste is that they don't really go into details. They just call them misogynyst, ugly or having a small dick or anything mindless like that. They don't address their issues presented or even question much what they say about their lives to be false.

While Tucker seems to leave plenty of room for attacks on the veracity of his stories and his real "life wisdoms". The movie is almost like his gravestone and the current "manosphere" site is a lame comeback attempt.

Oh - and the stats of the movie:

Quote:Total Lifetime Grosses
Domestic: $1,429,299
Domestic Summary
Opening Weekend: $366,909
(#26 rank, 120 theaters, $3,058 average)
% of Total Gross: 25.7%

Post: #59

(07-16-2014 08:23 AM)Roosh Wrote:  7 day ban for Abe Lincoln. Newbies are not allowed to spit drama/hate.

MikeCF and Abe Lincoln are obviously the same person.

8 posts in 18 months of membership?! Only posts to agree with everything that MikeCF says?

Clear fake account.

This is the same MikeCF that sent me a PM that said he would "destroy" me because I disagreed with him about Tucker earlier in this thread.

Dude's got issues.

Post: #60

(07-16-2014 12:29 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  MikeCF and Abe Lincoln are obviously the same person.

8 posts in 18 months of membership?! Only posts to agree with everything that MikeCF says?

Clear fake account.

This is the same MikeCF that sent me a PM that said he would "destroy" me because I disagreed with him about Tucker earlier in this thread.

Dude's got issues.

I'll ask again: Is this you?

/thread-38178-...#pid781289

Here was our total PM exchange:

Quote:You messaged me:

Dude I am not going to get into an argument with you on an internet forum just because we don't have the same opinion on Tucker Max.

You are right one of us is not like the other. I don't have your negativity nor your ego.

I replied:

"You're a dirt bag internet marketing. Don't message me again. I am crushing Tucker and I will crush you. Worm."

Here's a lesson for you. When you're in a hole, stop digging.

Yet the instinct always seems to dig it deeper.

As far as my issues, yep, I am big into loyalty and I hate dirt bags and liars and Internet Marketers who are parasites rather than value-adds.

Anyhow, was this post about you?

/thread-38178-...#pid781289

Post: #61

(07-16-2014 12:34 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  I replied:

"You're a dirt bag internet marketing. Don't message me again. I am crushing Tucker and I will crush you. Worm."

Yes, that was your reply.

Like I said, you got issues.

(07-16-2014 12:34 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  Here's a lesson for you. When you're in a hole, stop digging.

Yes that is a good lesson so learn from it. So stop digging.

You already had your fake account "Abe Lincoln" shut down and you are making yourself look stupid by posting fake messages agreeing with yourself.

Questioning someone else's integrity whilst posting fake messages on a fake account?

Really?!

Let's get this thread back on topic shall we.

Tell me why your hate this Tucker dude so much and why you would spill so much bile towards a fellow RVF member (me) simply because I disagreed with you about him?

Post: #62

(07-16-2014 12:45 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  Tell me why your hate this Tucker dude so much and why you would spill so much bile towards a fellow RVF member (me) simply because I disagreed with you about him?

You are not a fellow member of my tribe. You're like so many other filthy people who come around, use shady marketing (buying reviews), and try ripping off the guys I care about.

By the way, you won't answer my question. That was you who met scoatian, wasn't it?

As for your accusation that I created a sock puppet account....That shows your lack of judgment. You are melting down inside.

I can read a man's words on a screen and tell if he's dirt. Ethos. Character is revealed in a man's writing.

A man who met you made that same assessment.

I have already exposed you as a fraud who pays for book reviews.

And exposed you as someone no one would ever want to meet in real life.

Use some judgment and walk away. You are only making things worse for yourself.

Post: #63

(07-16-2014 12:53 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  I have already exposed you as a fraud who pays for book reviews.

And exposed you as someone no one would ever want to meet in real life.

Use some judgment and walk away. You are only making things worse for yourself.

Dude, you used a fake account and highlighted every positive review as "fake" and every negative review as "real".

You are talking about a book that went to number one on amazon in the category of human sexual psychology.

Books that only get shitty reviews dont do that.

You have posted not a single shred of evidence to back up your claims.

Why? Because it's not possible to expose a fraud that does not exist.

You also posted the PM exchange that we had (which I can verify is real) in which you threatened to "destroy" me because I simply disagreed with your opinion on this tucker dude. We all know that this is your real motive.

A person that neither one of us have ever even met.

Check yourself dude, seriously.

Post: #64

Matt's account of the old message board's final days is correct. Tucker Max had a lot of initial success, then fell apart when he encountered setbacks.

Prior to 2008, Tucker Max was doing some pretty incredible stuff:

- He was one of the first writers to effectively connect with his audience directly, bypassing the gatekeepers of mainstream publishing. None of the publishing houses would touch him, so he started publishing his stories on his website in the late 90s. He published a best-seller driven entirely through his personal following. Today in 2014 you're thinking, well duh, it's all about your list! But in 1998, this was revolutionary. His book was so successful, he started a publishing company and recruited a bunch of talented writers, with the goal of starting an online publishing empire that would destroy print media and mainstream publishing and replace them with a system in which writers connected directly with their audience.

- He was the first writer to tap into the utterly neglected literary market of male readers. He wrote from an apologetically masculine perspective, even if it was just the flawed, grasping-at-straws masculinity of alcoholic college party culture.

- He was very intelligent and articulate. His success was not just due to being in the right place at the right time, and accidentally riding the cultural waves of masculinist renaissance and decentralized content distribution. Well before almost everyone else, Tucker Max understood how the internet was going to affect the literary marketplace. He was also very consciously pro-masculinity, anti-feminist, and anti-PC. He saw his own writing as a conscious reaction against the anti-masculine nature of progressive western culture.

For a while, it looked like Tucker Max was going to lead a cultural revolution. He thought he was going to completely disrupt the publishing industry. He thought his movie was going to blow Hollywood away. As of ~2004-2007, Tucker Max thought that he was on track to make billions of dollars; turn the American entertainment industry on it's head; and lead a generation of men towards the masculine self-actualization which they had been denied by a repressive, anti-masculine, feminazied culture.

And you know what? It wasn't entirely crazy. He had momentum, and a purpose.

But then it all came crashing down. The publishing company, Rudius Media, collapsed and the movie tanked, both around the same time.

It's hard to explain just how much hype Tucker Max brought to these projects. Rudius Media was going to change the face of publishing forever. His movie came out right after Hangover, which made something like a half billion, but Max was convinced that his movie was going to be in a whole other league. One day, Max Inc. was building an empire. The next, he was a guy with a book of funny stories and not much else.

I have a ton of respect for people who are willing to fail. That was, ironically, a big part of the old Tucker Max catechism: Failure is good. Failure means you tried, and put yourself out there. But the key to failure is to own your mistakes and learn from them. Instead of doing that, Max shut down every channel through which his long-time fans could criticize him and stuck his fingers in his ears. He took the forum offline with zero warning, and destroyed what had become an incredibly valuable community - comparable to the RVF, I would even say.

Try to imagine how you would feel if you tried to log in to the RVF tomorrow, and there was nothing here but a nice note from Roosh announcing that the forum was gone, along with all the posts, PMs, and contacts, and he wishes you the best of luck in all your future endeavours. And he did it all because forum members were writing negative reviews of Poosy Paradise.

Tucker Max had the potential to be great, but his tragic flaw was his narcissistic inability to admit failure and accept a temporary setback. He could have written openly and honestly about his failure, shown his readers that it really is OK to fail sometimes, that it's not just something he wrote, it's something he lived. If he had had the courage and self-awareness to do that, all of us today would probably call ourselves members of the Tucker Max-o-sphere.

But instead, he hid from his failures for five years. Then he got a therapist. I guess they don't discuss the great failures of his late twenties, and the depressive episode that they brought on, because Max never seems to bring it up in his present writing.

Throughout my adult life, I've always been cheering for Tucker Max to get back on his horse and create something worthwhile. He was a hero of mine, and he was incredibly prescient regarding the internet's effect on media and the necessity of a masculinist renaissance in the western world. But, his narcissism was his great tragic flaw. The ironies are Shakespearean:

- Tucker Max will fail with his watered-down new site, because the reader is now king, not the politically correct gatekeepers... just as he predicted.
- Tucker Max taught a generation of young writers that the most important aspect of quality art is honesty and vulnerability... and now he is demonstrating it by churning out timid, artificial content. His muse is crushed under the psychic energy he must continually exert, to pretend that he hasn't just spent the past five years in hiding
- Tucker returns to the scene with a big interview about his therapeutic journey of self-awareness... while assiduously avoiding the subject of his five-year-and-running meltdown and denial
- Tucker Max writes a book about increasing testosterone, then lends it to his girlfriend

So what's next? I don't think it will take long for Max and Miller to grow disillusioned with The Mating Grounds. They have shut down comments and refuse to link to their opponents, because they know they are on the wrong side of history; they know they have become the politically correct cowards they once hated. They are cockroaches, scurrying from daylight, while we are anti-fragile. Any conflict between the Manosphere and The Mating Grounds will benefit us. Men will read both sides, and they will know in their guts that we are honest, we are in pursuit of truth, and we have a much larger purpose than earning a few Amazon affiliate commissions on Vitamin D pills while trying to salvage what's left of a broken, deluded ego.

Post: #65

Addendum: Here's something interesting I caught from Ryan Holiday a few weeks ago:

http://thoughtcatalog.com/ryan-holiday/2...your-life/

Quote:"But then I actually made some of those decisions. I dropped out of college and it was terrifying. I decided to write an expose about the media in which I would have to admit bad things I had done. I broke ranks with a mentor and friend and it’s been eating me up inside."

Max gave Ryan Holiday his big break when he was a college freshman posting on the TMMB, so they go way back. I have no idea if Holiday is referring to Max or not, but it fits. It could also explain why the TMG marketing strategy over the past month has mostly consisted of posts about what they are planning to do, combined with throwaway link round ups put together by some intern.

Post: #66

Quote:Try to imagine how you would feel if you tried to log in to the RVF tomorrow, and there was nothing here but a nice note from Roosh announcing that the forum was gone, along with all the posts, PMs, and contacts, and he wishes you the best of luck in all your future endeavours. And he did it all because forum members were writing negative reviews of Poosy Paradise.

According to Chrome, RVF is my most-visited site...



If I close the forum, there wouldn't be much to do on the internet.

Post: #67

Wow, that's an insightful post, Frost. I now better understand where you were coming from and apologize to the extent I implied you were page view whoring. You admired Tucker, and for good reason.

Your only mistake was admiring an image of the past rather than the man who exists in the present.

I had no idea who Tucker Max was other than as a lawyer I heard about the Miss Delaware free speech issue. I was focused on other things when he came of age.

The irony is that Tucker is being slayed by people who studied his methods.

I know damned well what I'm doing.

So...In a way, I should say this, "Thanks, Tucker!"

Post: #68

(07-15-2014 11:41 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  I'm guessing I'm the one guy who doesn't know who Tucker Max is.

Nope but this thread is funny.

Post: #69

Tucker's main blog gets very little traffic:

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/tuckermax.me

He has a lot of FB/Twitter followers though.

Matinggrounds is ranked in the 56k's. http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/thematinggrounds.com
By comparison, ROK is in the top 4k.

Post: #70

(07-16-2014 03:09 PM)Roosh Wrote:  Tucker's main blog gets very little traffic:

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/tuckermax.me

He has a lot of FB/Twitter followers though.

Matinggrounds is ranked in the 56k's. http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/thematinggrounds.com
By comparison, ROK is in the top 4k.

Keep in mind that Alexa can be gamed. Alexa is a accurate measure of how many people with the Alexa toolbar (i.e., Internet Marketers) read the site than of overall readership.

Alexa is not a random distribution of readers. I laugh at the data it has on Danger & Play.

TMG is likely game Alexa as so many members of his team understand how to game Alexa and have the toolbar installed.

Post: #71

(07-16-2014 02:15 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  You also posted the PM exchange that we had (which I can verify is real) in which you threatened to "destroy" me because I simply disagreed with your opinion on this tucker dude. We all know that this is your real motive.

A person that neither one of us have ever even met.

Check yourself dude, seriously.

I noticed you because you defended Tucker. I would have spotted you sooner or later, though.

I will be honest. I do not like people like you. You are parasites.

If you've been around, you notice that I'm not bashful about calling people like you out.

The mods can even attest that I regularly "report spam" when guys like you show up; where as I have never reported a post when guys went after me personally.

I really am about the community, which is something you as a parasite will never understand.

As far as your other stuff, well, was that link I posted (three times now, I believe) about you?

Other men have met me. At least 50. Some have been random spottings. That is, they recognized my pic and said hi.

They rather than I can evaluate my character.

Post: #72

Frost your post on the history of Tucker Max is great.

It's true. Tucker predicted the rise of the manosphere in many ways. Early links on his forum were what lead me Heartsie's site, reading The Game, and lead me to believe talking to women was something you could get better at with the right mindset.

Tucker's legacy goes further in that he discovered Ryan Holiday, who started as 19-year-old kid looking to interview Tucker for his school newspaper.Ryan went on to market the books of Tim Ferriss, Robert Greene, and Neil Strauss. Ryan was the first to troll feminists, geting them to protest Tucker's movie. Ryan developed many of the media tactics now regularly practiced in the manosphere, and Roosh started ROK shortly after reviewing Ryan's book.

Tucker's downfall was moving from one medium to another. While he was a great writer, he did not understand the medium of film and was a terrible collaborator. He compared his film to The Hangover, but The Hangover was directed by the same guy who did Old School, and he had the wrong talent working on his film. That film was like watching Michael Jordan play baseball. The jokes that worked great in the book fell flat. While Tucker might have been right that Hollywood would botch his material, he was wrong in thinking he didn't need others to translate his vision for him.

Like I said, I want him to succeed. But it will require transformation. He hit a plateau, and he's either going to stagnate or grow. I hope he chooses that second.

Post: #73

Do you guys really believe this Tucker has what it takes to make this site a success?

I don't know, but it seems like a lot of drama over a site that will probably fail simply because this guy doesn't have the fortitude to make it a success.

It sounds like he is in it for the dough and that tends to weed people out when things are not quickly successful.

Post: #74

(07-16-2014 03:37 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  Do you guys really believe this Tucker has what it takes to make this site a success?

I don't know, but it seems a lot of drama over a site that will probably fail simply because this guy doesn't seem to have the fortitude to make it a success.

It sounds like he is in it for the dough and that tends to weed people out when things are not quickly successful.

He is a plagiarist and a fraud. That's the problem. That is something worth fighting over. Whether you write for money or the well being of others for development purposes, if someone steals your material you must deal with that. That's not even counting the issues he presents in trying to undermine the manosphere itself. Legal protections/copyrights and options for C&D letters should probably start becoming the norm for writers in our space. It's sad, but ignoring people like that actually enables them and our enemies to keep fucking with us.

The less visible their lies are the less likely are they to get a show spot on daytime TV and FOX using and mangling the material people like us wrote a long time ago. Maybe if more of us were visible it would protect better, but that is not a guarantee either. Just because we are more anonymous or less famous, doesn't make it right either.

If more men were not interested in policing our own conduct collectively, we will have no shot at making a difference. We might as well become skull and bones society ripoffs.

Post: #75

Has anyone on this thread even met the dude?

Don't really know much about him other than he wrote a bunch of funny stories that I enjoyed 10 years ago or whenever the fuck they came out.