Post: #126

Gio I agree but most guys are not ready to go direct.

You really need to have a strong frame and foundation to do it.

Also, going direct is higher risk so the fallout from your failures can back fire as we see with Franco.

You could get banned at some clubs if you are constantly going direct and getting blownout.

The question for most guys is: "how do I know when it's time to go direct?"

Post: #127

(04-06-2014 12:58 PM)soup Wrote:  Gio I agree but most guys are not ready to go direct.

I am ready. You are ready. MikeCF is ready.

We are not "most guys".

We put in the time and effort required to make ourselves ready.

"Most guys" should use indirect.

Direct is only for the adventurous and ballsy.

(04-06-2014 12:58 PM)soup Wrote:  You really need to have a strong frame and foundation to do it.

Yes.

Frame and foundation.

Those things should be unshakeable.

"Most guys" need to work on those things.

(04-06-2014 12:58 PM)soup Wrote:  going direct is higher risk

Higher risk and higher reward

(04-06-2014 12:58 PM)soup Wrote:  You could get banned at some clubs if you are constantly going direct

If you are getting banned then you are not calibrating to the environment.

Presentation, vibe, and delivery are always important.

You don't just go around saying -- "hey wanna fuck".

You build a little rapport first, probe her to see if she is the type who might like it. I often start indirect and gradually move towards direct.

When you do it right, they often say things like -- "Thanks for the offer".

(04-06-2014 12:58 PM)soup Wrote:  The question for most guys is: "how do I know when it's time to go direct?"

It's time when you decide that its time.

When you are ready for a new challenge and learning experience, that is the time.

It won't always work on the girl but it will certainly strengthen your frame and push you outside your comfort zone.

First get proficient with indirect, then bang pussy with indirect, then get bored with indirect, then its time.

Also, extremists and outliers often respond well to extreme behavior, so, if you get a sense that a girl is a bit of a non-conformist or an outlier, try going direct. (I've had success with emo chicks, goth chicks, hipsters, gangster chicks, bondage chicks, hippie chicks, rebels, etc.)

Post: #128

(04-06-2014 01:25 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  I am ready. You are ready. MikeCF is ready.

We are not "most guys".

We put in the time and effort required to make ourselves ready.

"Most guys" should use indirect.

Direct is only for the adventurous and ballsy.

Now that I know I'm not "ready" for direct game, someone should let Roosh know he isn't either.

Do you guys do workshops? Maybe he and I could get a group deal.

Post: #129

Direct game vs. Indirect game is the abortion debate of the manosphere.

Post: #130

(04-06-2014 01:55 PM)runsonmagic Wrote:  Direct game vs. Indirect game is the abortion debate of the manosphere.

Yeah, and the direct gamers are a bunch of skrillex-cut baby killers!!!!!!!11



I, for one, think it's a fun controversy. We should gin it up as a fake divide in the forum.

Post: #131

(04-06-2014 01:46 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  Now that I know I'm not "ready" for direct game

You probably are ready but you just don't realize it.

Or, you are ready but you just haven't tried it?

Or, you are ready but this type of direct is not part of your social paradigm?

Or, you are ready but you just don't care for it?

Or, some combination of the above..

You should try it.

Just because you don't do it doesn't mean it won't work.

(04-06-2014 01:46 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  Do you guys do workshops?

Yes, I am happy to help anytime.

*****

I'm sure Roosh is ready but Europe is a different culture. If he were still in America, his strategy might be different.

Post: #132

I think that going direct over text is different from going direct in person.

There's a particular kink to going direct over text.

Post: #133

I think there is a distinction being missed here which can make the argument seem more than it really is.

What Mike and Gio are talking about in my opinion is that it's important to sexualize the interaction with the girl as early as possible. That is not (necessarily) the same as propositioning the girl right away. A crude proposition may not come off as sexual at all to a girl if she is not in the right mood to receive it, so it all depends on the context and on how congruent it is with her state and with the guy who is making it.

Sexualizing can be done in all sorts of ways, by introducing overtly sexual subjects into the text exchange or conversation in the way Mike is describing (which is still not the same as simply propositioning), or by body language, or forms of flirting etc. It can be done both with what's being called direct game here and more subtly with indirect game. It all depends. The key is to find a way to organically introduce that sexual tension into the interaction, and "direct" or "indirect" are different ways of going about it that can be effective in different contexts.

Post: #134

(04-06-2014 02:10 PM)soup Wrote:  I think that going direct over text is different from going direct in person.

That's the thing, if you have this conversation correctly, there are so many factors about "doing direct" that you have to consider.

What part of the world are you in?
What kind of venue are you in?
What time of day is it?
How much time do you have to work?
What's your target's ethnic and/or socioeconomic background?
What does your target look like?
Is she alone?
What potential cockblocks are in the vicinity?
How are you dressed?

The list goes on.

Not to mention there's a false binary between direct and indirect. I'm willing to bet the (successful) direct guys use indirect elements in their game and vice versa.

The thing I took exception to is this idea that unqualified directness is useful to anyone beyond A-list celebrities and athletes. If I could observe the cats endorsing this approach, I'm willing to bet I see all kinds of indirect work in their approach. Occasionally hitting the gas (sexualizing) is something we all do.

Post: #135

(04-06-2014 02:10 PM)soup Wrote:  I think that going direct over text is different from going direct in person.

Yes, of course. There are many different subtleties and complexities to going direct.

Krauser advocates the "direct-indirect approach".

I sometimes use indirect language but with direct body language.

I sometimes use direct language but with indirect body language.

I sometimes start direct then move to indirect and vice versa.

Game is art as much as it is science.

(04-06-2014 02:24 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  I'm willing to bet direct guys use indirect elements in their game and vice versa.

Yes.

It's not always black or white, there are many "shades of grey".

Post: #136

(04-06-2014 02:24 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(04-06-2014 02:10 PM)soup Wrote:  I think that going direct over text is different from going direct in person.

That's the thing, if you have this conversation correctly, there are so many factors about "doing direct" that you have to consider.

What part of the world are you in?
What kind of venue are you in?
What time of day is it?
How much time do you have to work?
What's your target's ethnic and/or socioeconomic background?
What does your target look like?
Is she alone?
What potential cockblocks are in the vicinity?
How are you dressed?

The list goes on.

Not to mention there's a false binary between direct and indirect. I'm willing to bet direct guys use indirect elements in their game and vice versa.

The thing I took exception to is this idea that unqualified directness is useful to anyone beyond A-list celebrities and athletes. If I could observe the cats endorsing this approach, I'm willing to bet I see all kinds of indirect work in their approach. Occasionally hitting the gas is something we all do.

I think the guys arguing for direct here would also agree that you have to have your shit together and be qualified.. looking as good as you can, strong frame, etc. all that innergame/lifestyle stuff.

That's why I said earlier in the thread that being direct is more about your intent then what you actually say.

For example, you can say "It's raining outside" to a girl in a million ways. It's how you say it. If you say it with sexual intent, you are going direct even if the words you are saying aren't "I would like to have sex with you, let's have sex" (or whatever is deadpan for direct).

And visa versa- you can tell a girl "I want to have sex with you" and have a completely different subtext.

If you come off as a strong framed, virile man.. everything you do oozes sexuality. Girls will even accuse you of trying to turn them on when you aren't consciously trying to.

It's kind of like how when I see hot girls, I just feel a deeper connection to them than unattractive girls.

If you look like you were built for fucking, it's hard not to communicate sexual intent directly. The girls are going to get wet even if you haven't said anything to them.

For the bodybuilders around here.. when your whole body is a simulacrum for a throbbing erection.. when skin on your arms is tightly stretched around the muscle like tight pussy on a big dick.. you are communicating..

Or if you are rockstar looking guy who has a strut that let's a girl know that you'd be good in bed.. or a good dancer for that matter..

You are putting out the sexual vibe. Everything about you is sex. It's hard not to go direct.

Girls know just from looking at you that if they engage you even in the most seemingly mundane dialog, there's a good chance that they are going to get fucked by you.

Maybe direct is more of a bad boy thing. I bet the guys who are more in favor of going direct than doing the slow-burner way are the types of guys that also get into fights/trouble etc.

Their cards are all out on the table for everyone to see.

Post: #137

Are you guys forgetting one of the most famous direct approaches. When Christiano Ronaldo's baby mama - am American waitress - was revealed, she described the seduction.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/art...stand.html

"The 25-year-old former Manchester United forward met her in a Los Angeles restaurant during a trip to the U.S. last summer, charming her with the line: 'Me, you, **** ****', it was reported.

When she failed to understand his direct approach, Ronaldo drew a love heart on a misted-up window and said: 'Me, you, kiss!'
They slept together at his hotel later that night and when she discovered she was pregnant she tracked him down through his agent"

Honestly game recognized on the chick's part too. Just had her life made [$10m for silence].

But THAT is direct game. As Gio said, there's types of Direct, and they have to be calibrated with the environment. You can't just go up and say "let's fuck" randomly. The oldest fucking trick - making catcalls, and then honking car horns - that's technically the most direct game, but so glaringly stupid and hamhanded that 99.999% of the time it does not work.

Post: #138

My game is so direct that I don't even text/talk to girls. They open me.

Post: #139

(04-06-2014 02:40 PM)soup Wrote:  I think the guys arguing for direct here would also agree that you have to have your shit together and be qualified.. looking as good as you can, strong frame, etc. all that innergame/lifestyle stuff.

Yes, exactly.

MikeCF has his shit together and thus feels "qualified" or high value enough to go direct.

I don't know if I have my shit together as good as Mike but I certainly feel that I am"qualified" and high value enough to go direct.

We are not movie stars but we have a strong belief in ourselves that allows us to act like movie stars, sometimes.

Great post Soup! I was thinking a lot of that myself. My whole attitude and persona is direct. Even if I am talking to a girl indirectly, she knows that I want to take her sexually.

Post: #140

Nice shoes. Wanna fuck?

/drops mic

Post: #141

(04-06-2014 03:25 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Nice shoes. Wanna fuck?

/drops mic

Now even in that, I try to avoid asking questions when an action is involved. I'll always say "do this" or the softer "let's do this".

So wouldn't "Nice shoes. Let's fuck" work better. This is nitpicking, but I think it's important

Post: #142

Quote:That's the thing, if you have this conversation correctly, there are so many factors about "doing direct" that you have to consider.

What part of the world are you in?
What kind of venue are you in?
What time of day is it?
How much time do you have to work?
What's your target's ethnic and/or socioeconomic background?
What does your target look like?
Is she alone?
What potential cockblocks are in the vicinity?
How are you dressed?

I agree.

Indirect and direct are just tools in the game.

For example-
If you want to crack the ice queens of Shibuya, then going indirect or direct won't matter. You have to be persistent and talk to a potential brick wall for 10mins before she cracks a smile and your talking (on the street). In this case, I was persistant (kept talking) and humorous (cracked a smile, she stops walking). I wasn't direct or indirect it didn't matter (street game tokyo). I and some other guys have said some pretty stupid and overtly sexual things to these "brick wall targets." Its just how the game is played in that environment.

We would approach anything. Girls with moms, girls on cell phones, girls in groups, etc. Nothing was off the table.

I think direct is good for pushing your limits. But it's just another tool in the toolbag - depending on where you are and where you live being persistent + humorous (could) beat out going direct or indirect.

Talking shit and speaking your mind freely are also tools.

Be smart, and just do what gets you the best results for that environment.

Post: #143

He're the clip. Honking car horns, and calling from construction sites.

Post: #144

I just did 3 direct approaches..

My openers were:

"you look nice today" (I was standing with a girl waiting for the elevator)

"go ahead pretty lady" (I let a girl go ahead of me on the escalator)

"That skirt is hot" (I was walking alongside a girl in Nordstroms)

The first girl gave me her number.

I have banged girls before using these direct lines.

Here is one example:

I was in front of the dorms at a local university, I see a beautiful young Latina, great skin, great body, perfect round athletic breasts...

She walks past me without noticing me, I turn and walk quickly in her direction, I pretend to be on my phone so she can hear my voice and get a feel for my personality and vibe, just as I pass her, I end my fake phone call and open her..

me: hey you look nice today
her: thanks
me: are you new around here?
her: yes
me: where are you from?
her: LA
me: oh cool, how do you like sf so far?
her: i love it
me: voce e brasiliera?
her: huh?
me: are you brasilian?
her: haha no do i look brazilian?
me: ya kind of, what are you?
her: mexican
me: oh im half mexican, the mex food around here sucks
her: really?
me: ya but i will show you good local places
her: haha
me: i gotta run to class but why don't you give me your number and ill text you soon
her: um.. well..i dont know..
me: listen i know its random but i will never see you again, i think you look really nice and i want to have a drink with you sometime..
her: well..ok

I texted her 10 minutes -- "mucho gusto nayeli, you look great -giovonny"

She texted me right back. Banged her on the first date.

I think she was turned on by an older man hitting on her directly.

*****

(04-06-2014 04:07 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  Honking car horns

If I honk my horn, I will also pull over and roll my window down.

But, I prefer to park my car, get out and talk to her.

TO EACH IS HIS OWN

Post: #145

Gio, no I read your story about driving past the girl at the bus-stop, etc. I was thinking about guys who do it with no tact. It's like a fratboy with no actual skill, so he just gets wasted and blows all his chances and tries to play it off as being a sick bro.

If you don't go talk to her, you might as well just grunt at her, same effect.

Post: #146

Even though I acknowledge that direct game has its uses, it is still dumb to just ask a girl about a hotel room so bluntly. You can sexualize the conversation and get across the notion that you want to fuck her in more elegant ways.

Conclusion: I like indirect game, I acknowledge direct game, but I just can't acknowledge apocalypse openers like this. Even Juan Antonio, one of my favorite examples, is not this blunt.

Post: #147

(04-06-2014 06:54 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  I just did 3 direct approaches..

My openers were:

"you look nice today" (I was standing with a girl waiting for the elevator)

"go ahead pretty lady" (I let a girl go ahead of me on the escalator)

"That skirt is hot" (I was walking alongside a girl in Nordstroms)

The first girl gave me her number.

I have banged girls before using these direct lines.

Here is one example:

I was in front of the dorms at a local university, I see a beautiful young Latina, great skin, great body, perfect round athletic breasts...

She walks past me without noticing me, I turn and walk quickly in her direction, I pretend to be on my phone so she can hear my voice and get a feel for my personality and vibe, just as I pass her, I end my fake phone call and open her..

me: hey you look nice today
her: thanks
me: are you new around here?
her: yes
me: where are you from?
her: LA
me: oh cool, how do you like sf so far?
her: i love it
me: voce e brasiliera?
her: huh?
me: are you brasilian?
her: haha no do i look brazilian?
me: ya kind of, what are you?
her: mexican
me: oh im half mexican, the mex food around here sucks
her: really?
me: ya but i will show you good local places
her: haha
me: i gotta run to class but why don't you give me your number and ill text you soon
her: um.. well..i dont know..
me: listen i know its random but i will never see you again, i think you look really nice and i want to have a drink with you sometime..
her: well..ok

I texted her 10 minutes -- "mucho gusto nayeli, you look great -giovonny"

She texted me right back. Banged her on the first date.

I think she was turned on by an older man hitting on her directly.

*****

(04-06-2014 04:07 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  Honking car horns

If I honk my horn, I will also pull over and roll my window down.

But, I prefer to park my car, get out and talk to her.

TO EACH IS HIS OWN

Gio, have you ever heard of Dark Matter?

It's this shit that scientists can't yet detect, but they know it has an influence on the world that they can see.

Based on just what you wrote, in the indirect universe, the above text is actually considered bad game. In writing, it looks like you are showing way too much investment, too early.

So, this is the problem with trying to describe what you are doing over the internet.

I think that how you come across- your physical presence, is probably letting you get away with what looks like, on paper, to be bad words for game. It's the dark matter of the equation when viewed through an indirect lens.

Clearly your frame is very strong so that it probably doesn't matter too much what you say so as long as you don't say something that would negate your vibe.

Post: #148

(04-07-2014 02:12 AM)soup Wrote:  Gio, have you ever heard of Dark Matter?

Yes and I love that concept of things that we can't see being able to affect us.

What you can't "see" in my writing is that I'm a little crazy, my frame is strong, I'm symmetrical looking, and I get rejected a lot.

(04-07-2014 02:12 AM)soup Wrote:  the above text is actually considered bad game.

I'm the first to admit, my game is not that good.

I basically just play the numbers game and search for young girls who are looking for a sexual experience with an older White(ish) man.

A lot of the girls I get with are latina, filipina, black, or mixed.

For them, an older white(ish) man is a new and exciting experience.

Sometimes they say that I remind them of a guy from their favorite sitcom or something like that.

Remember that I only go after 18/19yo girls. How many times has a decent looking, middle aged White man hit on them? Unless they work at Hooters, it hasn't happened very often.

I tell them they look nice, that I want to take them out sometime, it's a fresh experience for them.

Their whole lives, well, since puberty, the have been thinking about banging Bradley Cooper, James Franco, Vince Vaughn Colin Farrell, Ryan Reynolds, Robin Thicke, Orlando Bloom, Christian Bale, Ryan Philippe, etc.

I am the same age as those guys. I'm not as attractive as those guys but if I'm well dressed, with a good haircut, in soft lighting, after a few drinks.. I can be that older white man of their fantasies.

I like to go direct with these younger girls because its fun and it really sexualizes the whole interaction from the beginning.

I just like to do crazy, exciting, sexy stuff. Sometimes, girls like to come along for the ride.

(04-07-2014 02:12 AM)soup Wrote:  Clearly your frame is very strong so that it probably doesn't matter too much what you say

My frame is strong but what I say matters alot.

I can lose a girl quick if I say something stupid.

*****

I guess direct game works for me because I like to experiment with the limits of the accepted Social Paradigm and I actually like the numbers game.

I don't want to sit and talk to a girl for 20 minutes about stuff I don't care about. I would rather talk about what I am passionate about; which is her and I drinking wine, listening to music, and exploring each others body.

Maybe, I should be more indirect but I just don't care for it. It doesn't pass my "boner test".

Going direct is a turn on for ME. And, I do this stuff for ME.

It's just my preference.

To each his own.

I do consider myself a social scientist researching the area of modern direct sexuality.

Honestly, the social art form is when we combine aspects of both direct and indirect into a seamless seduction that feels natural.

Post: #149

I think this debate about indirect/direct breaks down into the two types of lifestyles that guys on here want to live:

One is the DL player- the indirect guy who works like a Ninja and has superbly calculated techniques for stealthily tapping into the pussy. I'm thinking Tuth with the first date bang recipe, or Roosh's Day Bang book. The Ninja can have many girls going, but he deals with them all separately and in secrecy. Meeting girls in Coffee shops, or on the street etc.

The other is the golden boy, put everything on the open- flaunt it type alpha. Guys like McQueen, Distantlight. These guys surround themselves with women and make money promoting or being attractive etc. They meet lots of girls in the clubs.

The first is more like Batman, then second is Iron Man (from the movies). Both are very smart and rich etc. But, while Batman's identity is concealed, Iron man is out in the open. It's more risky but he doesn't have to worry about keeping everything hidden.

Both are workable strategies.

I think it might be helpful for guys to recognize that there are two distinct styles. For someone who is just coming into the game.. he's going to read everything and be confused if he thinks that it's all the same style.

A new guy is going to first take the Redpill.

Then he's got a new choice. Does he take the Goldpill or the Blackpill? Is he going to be a golden lion who is out on display for the world to see, or is he going to be the sigma master of shadows.

Another movie comic book analogy is Loki and Thor.

I toggle between both worlds.

I've done the dating thing and the promoter/musician type thing.

I think I'm transitioning more into the Goldpill, but I used the Blackpill to gain skills and confidence. I've noticed this because I've been much more direct in my text messaging and am less likely to care if a girl balks at my directness. I have less an investment with each girl.

Post: #150

(04-07-2014 02:16 PM)soup Wrote:  I think this debate about indirect/direct breaks down into the two types of lifestyles that guys on here want to live:

Exactly. Well said..

Great post.

Live the lifestyle that YOU want.

That's what this forum is all about!