Post: #2401

(02-06-2019 09:46 AM)scotian Wrote:  Yes I'm smoking dope almost everyday after work. I quit for about ten days last month but it affected my sleep, going from about 7-8 hours of solid sleep each night down to 5-6, once I started puffing again my sleep improved. It's one thing that I will phase out when the time is right as I find that weed makes me stupid and affects my memory, basically I'm less sharp.

I was working a really shitty shift, 6pm to 4am so I was sleeping in until 2-3pm everyday and not getting much sunlight since it gets dark here at 4-4:30pm. Now I'm working noon-midnight which is much better and also using bright light therapy and taking 5000 ICUs of vitamin D daily. I find that this helps and I care a lot more about getting proper sleeps which is much easier now that I'm alcohol free.

scotian, the right time to phase that stuff out is always now. You don't want to rely on pot as a crutch for your sleep, and the effects you note on brain function and memory are persistent and cumulative -- especially from the kind of regular, everyday use you describe -- so the sooner you drop it the better. Your sleep will get better with bright light therapy and good sleep hygiene (no food or coffee late in the day, and make sure your bedroom is cool -- sometimes people will turn up the heat too much at wintertime). If you want a good supplement to help with your sleep, take 2 of these before bedtime:

https://www.amazon.com/Thorne-Research-M...0797RHQFY/

You've been lucky so far to avoid the really negative long term effects of both the booze and the drugs, but don't push your luck.

Post: #2402

(02-10-2019 07:08 PM)RVF400 Wrote:  LOZ, truth be told I was a bit butthurt over your post but did take some time to reflect. I actually did not really take a cavalier stance to falling off the wagon, which is why I posted about it, but I can see how it would come across as such.

In the end I need to be accountable to myself and live up to the vows and standards I have set for myself.

So would like to reset my wagon from Dec 10th.
Today is 2 months in. Feel good, holidays, new years and other special occasions brought really no desire to drink.

Have been thinking a lot about the future and if I will want to drink again. The thoughts of getting shitfaced seem less appealing the older I get, but I know I will miss those boozy fun fueled nights where I manage to not over do it and lose the "master-servant" relationship with alcohol.

RVF400, thank you for ultimately taking my post in the right spirit -- if it prompted some reflection on your part, it has accomplished its purpose. As your reward, here is another observation that you might find less than entirely pleasant: all these thoughts about the "future" of your drinking are, in essence, a substitution mechanism for the forbidden and supposedly absent desire of having it at the present moment. Those fun fueled nights have been taken away from you, and to add insult to injury, you feel it is wrong even to desire them outright -- so you displace them into an unknowable future on which you feel you have the sanction to ruminate with relative impunity. In truth, it is far too early in your wagon for any real thoughts of the future; you will be in a better position to make that evaluation many months from now. For now, all you can do with the wagon is endure it, and take whatever perverse pleasure you can in that mute endurance.

Welcome aboard as of December 10, 2018 and I look forward to hearing more from you in this thread as time goes on.

Post: #2403

(02-12-2019 03:35 PM)Ski pro Wrote:  Congratulations Loz. Magnificent effort.

10 feb has come and gone so 3years for me. Sign me up for year 4

Thank you, Ski pro. There is not much to say about my wagon at this point -- it simply rolls on. It may well be magnificent in a number of ways, but it is hardly an effort.

More importantly, I'm delighted to hear about your 3 years and it is my pleasure to welcome you aboard for year 4 as of February 10, 2019. I hope to hear more from you here over time.

Post: #2404

A few days to 8 months here. Not drinking has been a breeze and I am certain I will complete the wagon.

About 6 months in I was struck with severe depression and regret- regret about missed opportunities, foolishness and downright stupidity. Why is this coming up now? Had I simply taken to the bottle whenever something uncomfortable came up previously?

Lately I've been taking a much more long-term view of matters important to me- career, money, women and fitness. I am certain that alcohol affects me way beyond the next day hangover. Surely, in its essence, drinking alcohol was always a short-termist endeavour, always sacrificing tomorrow for today.

The question now is what do I do after the wagon? Do I give moderate drinking one more try or do I continue the wagon? By now I've been to bars, weddings and social gatherings completely sober and I do not mind it at all, but for some reason, there is still an enduring idea that alcohol is a key component of game and that I am missing out.

Post: #2405

Wow, respect to you guys. I couldn't even make it a fucking month. Although I don't really have any issues with drinking, it seems that my issue is with committing to something/sticking to my word/finishing what I start.

Post: #2406

(02-13-2019 02:14 PM)pirate Wrote:  A few days to 8 months here. Not drinking has been a breeze and I am certain I will complete the wagon.

About 6 months in I was struck with severe depression and regret- regret about missed opportunities, foolishness and downright stupidity. Why is this coming up now? Had I simply taken to the bottle whenever something uncomfortable came up previously?

Lately I've been taking a much more long-term view of matters important to me- career, money, women and fitness. I am certain that alcohol affects me way beyond the next day hangover. Surely, in its essence, drinking alcohol was always a short-termist endeavour, always sacrificing tomorrow for today.

The question now is what do I do after the wagon? Do I give moderate drinking one more try or do I continue the wagon? By now I've been to bars, weddings and social gatherings completely sober and I do not mind it at all, but for some reason, there is still an enduring idea that alcohol is a key component of game and that I am missing out.

The regret is the one that came up for me too. I spent so much productive time drunk or hangovered. I’m furious about that and I’m on a mission to make up for lost time.

Game is not dependent on alcohol. However most social interactions happen where alcohol is. Those places are tiresome for me now.

It’s a difficult one, I haven’t come up with a solution for it.

Post: #2407

I fell off the wagon, but will be attempting another year

Post: #2408

I'm in as of February 3rd, 2019. To prevent substitutions, I'm going very close to full Mormon: no porn, no cigarettes or vaping, no cannabis or any other drugs. I'll have the occasional cup of coffee though.

I've been cultivating a much better mindset since I started a regular sleep schedule with bright light therapy.

Post: #2409

(02-13-2019 02:14 PM)pirate Wrote:  A few days to 8 months here. Not drinking has been a breeze and I am certain I will complete the wagon.

About 6 months in I was struck with severe depression and regret- regret about missed opportunities, foolishness and downright stupidity. Why is this coming up now? Had I simply taken to the bottle whenever something uncomfortable came up previously?

Lately I've been taking a much more long-term view of matters important to me- career, money, women and fitness. I am certain that alcohol affects me way beyond the next day hangover. Surely, in its essence, drinking alcohol was always a short-termist endeavour, always sacrificing tomorrow for today.

The question now is what do I do after the wagon? Do I give moderate drinking one more try or do I continue the wagon? By now I've been to bars, weddings and social gatherings completely sober and I do not mind it at all, but for some reason, there is still an enduring idea that alcohol is a key component of game and that I am missing out.

Congratulations on your 8 months.

I’ve been on the wagon for 24 years now. I mention that with humility and deference to TLOZ, who started this great thread and has provided years of insightful advice, delivered in the most clear and eloquent way.

Like you and many others, I also had those feelings of regret early on when I gave up alcohol. The diminishment of those feelings is a function of time and the quality of self-improvements that you implement. What’s done is done and there is no going back in time. You can, however, change what you are doing right now and your plans for the future. It sounds like you are doing that now with your focus on career, etc., so don’t stew in anger or regret. As skipro said, be determined to make up for lost time.

As far as what to do after the wagon, I can only comment about what worked for me in my own circumstances. For me, the answer was that there is no “after the wagon.” The wagon is part and parcel of my life and it has made my life better. From the wagon, among other things, I was able to sustain a good career, engage in satisfying hobbies, and make a few very good investments that appreciated in value.

In my younger days, I gradually went from daily drinking, to weekend binge drinking, down to monthly and occasional binge drinking. At the time, what kept me from staying on the wagon was a false and misguided belief that drinking was doing something positive for me. It was as if I held out drinking as a reward for myself for not drinking (it that not ironic?). I would tell myself stuff like, “okay, just study for your exams this month and when the semester is over, you can pound some beers.” Drinking is what put me in this predicament in the first place, how the hell can it be a reward? I finally committed to a wagon and gave up my ambivalent hope that I was going to integrate alcohol into my life in a normal and moderate way. That was when things actually got easy. It was a matter of making a commitment to myself and sticking to it.

I went to one AA meeting about a year into my wagon. I know it helps some people, but it was not for me. I just got a vibe of people wallowing in their sense of being damaged and in a constant state of recovery. Perhaps it is a difference in perspective, but I much prefer the spirit of this thread – a loose community of guys with the goals of self-improvement and personal accomplishment. I wish this thread existed back then. The trip would have been lighter.

As far a gaming and women, don’t sweat it. I was able to get married, date and everything, all without drinking. Sometimes, the “you mean you don’t drink at all???” would come up. Best is just to be unapologetic and unwavering. There is some stuff elsewhere on the forum discussing this.

Post: #2410

I'm 4 days sober. 35 yrs old and have been drinking almost daily since being 21. I've got the shakes in my hands a bit but it's not super obvious. How long should I expect to have this before it subsides?

Post: #2411

I drank 8 + beers a day for a period of around 3 years. Withdrawal from this was brutal for the first 24 hours - insomnia, shaking, and feeling of dispair. I felt like a zombie for a few days after this as dealing with the world without drink in my system required a readjustment. It will subside.

That was my experience.

Post: #2412

(02-19-2019 12:00 PM)Golden_State_of_Mind Wrote:  I'm 4 days sober. 35 yrs old and have been drinking almost daily since being 21. I've got the shakes in my hands a bit but it's not super obvious. How long should I expect to have this before it subsides?

Go to a doctor immediately. If you are experiencing any symptoms of delerium tremens, you must seek medical help.

Post: #2413

I feel good in general, no headaches, sweating, nausea or anything like that. Just slightly shakey. I went a week without a drink a few months ago after a surgery and i was fine.

Reading the Carr book (3/4) so far and trying to kick the bottle once and for all. I'll give an official starting date soon. As of now I have no cravings. I just need to stay busy and not let myself get bored and let the process play out.

Post: #2414

(02-19-2019 03:05 PM)Golden_State_of_Mind Wrote:  I feel good in general, no headaches, sweating, nausea or anything like that. Just slightly shakey. I went a week without a drink a few months ago after a surgery and i was fine.

Reading the Carr book (3/4) so far and trying to kick the bottle once and for all. I'll give an official starting date soon. As of now I have no cravings. I just need to stay busy and not let myself get bored and let the process play out.

I hope you do well with it. Good luck.

I assumed that you weren't having the DT's since you were posting lucidly on this forum.

Horus gave sound and prudent advice about seeking medical attention. For anyone who has been drinking heavily for an extended period and has a physical dependency on alcohol, it's best to have a medical attention at the ready if you are going to cease drinking abruptly.

Post: #2415

GSM : I've read Carr's Book too and found it very insightful. I still think that this thread is better though. If you have not already done it, read it through at least once. It helps a lot.

Post: #2416

(07-26-2018 04:41 AM)pirate Wrote:  The best thing that could've possibly happened for my wagon has happened.

I met a girl, invited her to go to a bar with me, informed her upfront that I will just be drinking water. We had several mutual interests so the conversation was enjoyable to me and I talked to her calmly and confidently for an hour or so.

A three night lovemaking marathon ensued. She lavishly praised my enduring cockmanship and self-control.

This is the end of a long dry spell for me. Being possibly the best sex I have ever had and dispelling my illusions about alcohol being a neccessary ingredient in a pickup; I am happy to double down on my participation of the wagon.

This is great to hear. Just out of curiosity, were you able to have sex with her on the first night? Sex on the first night, or at least the willingness to push for sex on the first night, is often an important factor in keeping some girls on the line. Doing this 100% sober is pretty damn bold in my opinion. It requires a lot of confidence and a strong sense of purpose.

I know there are people out there who do this. A number of pick up coaches do everything 100% sober. I have no doubt there are great benefits to developing this kind of extreme, core confidence.

On Friday, I basically had public sex in a wild club with a girl that I had met 20 or so minutes earlier. I was pretty drunk. It was exciting and fun, and I am grateful for the experience and memory.

I'm sure I could go out to the same place and do this again sober - probably even easier than the first time if I really commit myself to making it happen. The underlying fear I have is that I may no longer WANT to do shit like this, or even casually date girls, if I stop letting alcohol fuel these kind of decisions. I may end up realizing I want a more stable, conservative, "boring" lifestyle and/or LTR, which will completely go against the identity I've lived for the past 10-12 years. I may have to figure out what things, people, and activities are TRULY important to me.

After reading it, the last couple sentences seem very silly and weak minded - but the fear is very, very real.

Can anyone successfully completed the wagon comment on this? I feel like I'm very close to a breakthrough and would really appreciate the feedback.

Post: #2417

@Eddie Winslow

I had sex with a girl in a restaurant bathroom within the past few years. We were both stone cold sober. I’m in my 40s.

Sex is a biological drive and exists outside the realm of chemical intoxication.

Get yourself to do it sober and you will see that it is completely possible. Experiencing a success will prove it so. It will be a personal victory to see that a sexual encounter occurred 100% because of you - without any chemical interference.

There are a few threads about sober gaming on the forum.

Post: #2418

(02-21-2019 11:47 AM)Eddie Winslow Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 04:41 AM)pirate Wrote:  The best thing that could've possibly happened for my wagon has happened.

I met a girl, invited her to go to a bar with me, informed her upfront that I will just be drinking water. We had several mutual interests so the conversation was enjoyable to me and I talked to her calmly and confidently for an hour or so.

A three night lovemaking marathon ensued. She lavishly praised my enduring cockmanship and self-control.

This is the end of a long dry spell for me. Being possibly the best sex I have ever had and dispelling my illusions about alcohol being a neccessary ingredient in a pickup; I am happy to double down on my participation of the wagon.

This is great to hear. Just out of curiosity, were you able to have sex with her on the first night? Sex on the first night, or at least the willingness to push for sex on the first night, is often an important factor in keeping some girls on the line. Doing this 100% sober is pretty damn bold in my opinion. It requires a lot of confidence and a strong sense of purpose.

I know there are people out there who do this. A number of pick up coaches do everything 100% sober. I have no doubt there are great benefits to developing this kind of extreme, core confidence.

On Friday, I basically had public sex in a wild club with a girl that I had met 20 or so minutes earlier. I was pretty drunk. It was exciting and fun, and I am grateful for the experience and memory.

I'm sure I could go out to the same place and do this again sober - probably even easier than the first time if I really commit myself to making it happen. The underlying fear I have is that I may no longer WANT to do shit like this, or even casually date girls, if I stop letting alcohol fuel these kind of decisions. I may end up realizing I want a more stable, conservative, "boring" lifestyle and/or LTR, which will completely go against the identity I've lived for the past 10-12 years. I may have to figure out what things, people, and activities are TRULY important to me.

After reading it, the last couple sentences seem very silly and weak minded - but the fear is very, very real.

Can anyone successfully completed the wagon comment on this? I feel like I'm very close to a breakthrough and would really appreciate the feedback.

I think once you get on the wagon you start to see the world for what it is and whilst dirty quick sex in a bathroom stall in excellent in many ways, it’s probab not doing much for the deeper meaning in life you are now seeking.

Post: #2419

(02-15-2019 03:57 PM)Ski pro Wrote:  The regret is the one that came up for me too. I spent so much productive time drunk or hangovered. I’m furious about that and I’m on a mission to make up for lost time.

Game is not dependent on alcohol. However most social interactions happen where alcohol is. Those places are tiresome for me now.

It’s a difficult one, I haven’t come up with a solution for it.

I hear you man.

Before the wagon I was pretty prolific with women, and it was something of a shock to the system when that steady stream (and I) dried up.

I guess it's finding, and even harder - tolerating - environments that are female heavy.

If I am on a bit of a dry spell, feeling that eros, I do sometimes reminisce about the boozy days, and the tail that came with them. But it's just a feeling, it need not consume us. We can rest assured that we have placed our trust in something more reliable, and ultimately more rewarding.

Post: #2420

Wine, women, and song need not be a package deal. You can go a la carte, preferably declining the first.

Sure, being on the wagon, you won’t experience those intoxicated, impulsive hedonistic hookups. That is perhaps a good thing. We have probably all woke up with a sense of shame and regret, having done something with a woman that we would not otherwise select if we were of clear mind.

I was the most introverted kid in school and college. I needed beer in me just to talk with a girl. After giving up drinking, I meet women, albeit in a more deliberate way, and if the chemistry is right, nature will take its course. My point is, if I can do it, anyone can.

Post: #2421

I'm about 6 weeks into a wagon and I've had a really tough time since starting this shit. If I'm being honest, I'm pretty fucking over it. I picked up an extra job during my initial pink cloud phase because I was feeling motivated to make extra money, and between my two gigs I've got no spare time and currently no scheduled days off. I'm under more stress than before but have given up my coping mechanism. If life didn't suck so badly, I might have a shot at keeping to a wagon. I'm really fucking anxious all the time. I am grinding my teeth constantly. It's kind of become clear to me now that I've been self medicating with alcohol / other stuff throughout life for a reason. This is some personal shit I'm throwing out there and I am fully aware of that and how it makes me look here. But whatever, if I cannot be honest what's the point?

Post: #2422

(02-17-2019 05:08 PM)BigTedSven Wrote:  I fell off the wagon, but will be attempting another year

BigTedSven, no need to think of it as "attempting" another year. We attempt things that may or may not be within our power, like seducing a girl or lifting a weight. But it's always within your power to not have a drink -- no one is going to force one down your throat. All you need to do is make a decision and then remember to simply stick to it no matter how you feel about it in the moment.

If you are in for a year, please post your new start date here and I will be happy to welcome you aboard.

Post: #2423

(02-17-2019 08:17 PM)Lampwick Wrote:  I'm in as of February 3rd, 2019. To prevent substitutions, I'm going very close to full Mormon: no porn, no cigarettes or vaping, no cannabis or any other drugs. I'll have the occasional cup of coffee though.

I've been cultivating a much better mindset since I started a regular sleep schedule with bright light therapy.

Great to hear that, Lampwick -- if you are patient and consistent you will see lasting benefits from this regimen, both mental and physical. But as always, these things can take time so bear that in mind.

Welcome aboard as of February 3, 2019 and I look forward to hearing more from you here as time goes on.

Post: #2424

(02-22-2019 06:42 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  I'm about 6 weeks into a wagon and I've had a really tough time since starting this shit. If I'm being honest, I'm pretty fucking over it. I picked up an extra job during my initial pink cloud phase because I was feeling motivated to make extra money, and between my two gigs I've got no spare time and currently no scheduled days off. I'm under more stress than before but have given up my coping mechanism. If life didn't suck so badly, I might have a shot at keeping to a wagon. I'm really fucking anxious all the time. I am grinding my teeth constantly. It's kind of become clear to me now that I've been self medicating with alcohol / other stuff throughout life for a reason. This is some personal shit I'm throwing out there and I am fully aware of that and how it makes me look here. But whatever, if I cannot be honest what's the point?

Rhyme or Reason,

This is exactly the time when you recommit to the wagon and just stick it through. You will have to go through a time like this sooner or later -- might as well do it now.

Having a drink will give you the momentary release that your anxious/depressive brain craves, but -- as you well know -- it will only put your brain back into an old, well-worn, and destructive groove. Those neural pathways take time to degrade and a lot of that time is not pleasant. There is no way around it, the only way is through it.

You should distrust the enthusiasms of what you correctly identified as the initial pink cloud phase. Those frantic enthusiasms are just another expression of anxiety, and what you really need to do, over time, is to let go of that anxiety and relax. As long as you have enough to house, feed, and clothe yourself, don't worry for the time being about getting a second job or making extra money. Treat the time ahead as one of convalescence -- your body and mind need a long period of rest and recovery from all the damage they have sustained over time. You can help them by avoiding all substances, both depressants and stimulants; using bright light therapy to regularize your sleep; eating a simple, wholesome diet with plenty of water; getting regular moderate exercise; and letting your mind repose in a blankness from which there is no need for it to emerge for a good long while.

Forget about everything else. For now -- the weeks and months ahead -- the course of convalescence should be the only one you follow. If you do this, you will make it to a life that is richer and fuller than any you've ever had, but this process cannot be rushed, not even by a day. Your every instinct will be one of impatience, but patience is the only cure you will need if you can take it.

Post: #2425

(02-22-2019 06:42 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  I'm about 6 weeks into a wagon and I've had a really tough time since starting this shit. If I'm being honest, I'm pretty fucking over it. I picked up an extra job during my initial pink cloud phase because I was feeling motivated to make extra money, and between my two gigs I've got no spare time and currently no scheduled days off. I'm under more stress than before but have given up my coping mechanism. If life didn't suck so badly, I might have a shot at keeping to a wagon. I'm really fucking anxious all the time. I am grinding my teeth constantly. It's kind of become clear to me now that I've been self medicating with alcohol / other stuff throughout life for a reason. This is some personal shit I'm throwing out there and I am fully aware of that and how it makes me look here. But whatever, if I cannot be honest what's the point?

Hey Man hopefully you feel better today. There’s a certain mental hurdle that everyone who hops on the wagon has gone over — in a way, a guy sort of loses his innocence when he mentally knows he has to quit drinking and makes a Wagon commitment... I knew that by about age 24 and tried several Wagon rides with many failures in between before I finally figured it out. Each time I would fall off the wagon I was so riddled with guilt and shame, and the drinking would always come back with a vengeance until my life would be back all tucked up several months later and I’d try the wagon again.

Lizard is right — jus be patient. I always had the same feelings you describe above at times on the wagon but I promise you that the feeling will pass. It may not be tomorrow and it may not be next week but these feelings will always pass, I can promise you that! Good luck man.