Post: #501

(03-17-2015 10:16 PM)w00t Wrote:  first of all its kinda strange that you defend this line of work so much. after all you said that you were barely working for years and even though you were making 100+ dollars an hour you were repeatedly going broke, since you couldnt even get yourself to do any consistent marketing and client work.

AND youve quit freelancing completely since you got too burned out on it and would rather take a huge cut to your paycheck instead of continuing it.

so it seems were kinda on the same page no? or am I missing something here?

Woot, feel free to point out to me where I was "defending" this industry because I think my post made a specific effort not to do that. If that's what you read, I'm afraid you're the one misreading.

I spoke of it positively in maybe one short paragraph. And what I said was true. Ask any of those guys who are supposedly so miserable about what they're doing to go back home and get a dayjob and what do you think their answer will be?

You are currently in Thailand enjoying yourself on your time off. Are you ready to trade that and go home to get a job yet? If I'm not mistaken, I believe you even have a thread around here somewhere offering a bit of advice on making it happen, so having issues with the industry doesn't appear to disqualify someone from offering advice.

I haven't stopped yet. I still do it enough to get by. And I'm grateful that I have the ability to do so - I may gripe but I also constantly find myself returning to the realization of how cool it is that I can live like this. I can still hop on Elance and churn up a grand of work when I need it.

Most importantly, I also haven't given up on my own projects. My main issue with what you said is that you're ragging on working for others while also saying you don't want to work for yourself. That line of thinking doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Quote:im not waiting for a bag of money to fall from the sky. and I really dont think a lecture on the merits of hard work or entitlement is called for here. lets just assume Im familiar with hard work myself. I certainly didnt just wake up one worning with a location independent income that allows me to travel indefinitely... what I do have a problem with is channeling my energy into something I couldnt care less about and that doesnt move me forward at all. except from saving up money freelancing is like treading water, youre getting nowhere and building up zero assets.

again its kinda strange that you go on about hard work and commitment when youve been hardly working the last years by your own admission. maybe a bit of projecting going on here?

Buddy, reread what I quoted from your post. You act as if I jumped in and made those assumptions out of nowhere. If you can't see how you gave that impression, I'm afraid this conversation is going to go in circles.

The only reason you got the "lecture" was because you said this:

Quote:i dont care about being creative or doing something meaningful. doing your own projects is cool but even that is something I could do without. I just wanna have enough money to retire. having to work for a living is so stupid

Try starting a thread with that sentiment instead of inserting it here and I guarantee you I won't be the only one to feel it's an unproductive conversation. Go state that in the copywriting thread. Try going into a thread about working out and making a post about how lifting to get fit sucks and you could do without it.

I don't think anyone likes it when someone pops in with such a defeatist post in a thread about making shit happen. It just isn't productive and it drags the conversation down.

It is a bit frustrating when someone pops in the convo just to rag on this type of work and try to discourage everyone from doing it - or if it's not that than it's Elance as a source of work. This isn't the first time you've made such a post. If you want to gripe, cool, but at least offer alternatives.

A lot of the guys trying for this hate where they're at and what they're doing - working a dead end job is bad enough, working a dead end job with people you don't like telling you what to do and stuck in a particular location is even worse for someone who just wants to see the world.

I've been doing this for about 7 years, much longer than I wanted to or would have had I been more productive. That isn't to say you can't make a career out of it - most people won't want to, but it doesn't take much looking around online to find people who have. Hell, you've known me long enough and gotten a close enough look at enough of my projects to see that my problem is one of productivity, not a problem with what I do for a living specifically.

Anyhow, I still continue to give people advice here and in the real world on doing it because for many it's still a very nice thing to have. People constantly tell me how just knowing what was possible has changed their lives because for most this reality doesn't even exist.

I always recommend people work on something else too, I've said it throughout this thread. But when you need something like this, it doesn't help to have guys ragging on it all the time and saying what a grind it is.

We all understand it is a grind. No one is in this thread looking for a get-rich-quick scheme or their eyes wouldn't be looking in this corner of the internet to begin with.

Quote:but back to what I was trying so say... i think youre missing a key distinction here.

yes i think HAVING to work for a living is stupid. and yes most of the people on this planet have to work for a living but so what? most of the people are just one paycheck away from being broke, stuck in unhealthy relationships and so on. average is not something we should strive for.

I don't think I'm missing the distinction. I didn't say it was a good idea to shoot for average - in fact I said:

Quote:I'm not saying to not pursue your dreams - I actually would encourage the opposite.

What I was saying is that even people who love what they do and are passionate about it have to slog through the grind. They had to in order to get where they are - there were no guarantees when they began working on their own projects.

My point is that complaining about having to work for a living and saying you don't want to work on your own projects, and yet not offering any other ideas of another way, especially in a thread where people are trying to get their grind on, comes across as entitled and defeated. At the very least, it isn't very helpful.

We don't disagree even one bit about finding your passion being an ideal path. For me that passion is writing. Not freelancing but writing books.

I'm currently living in Cambodia on a fraction of what I could be making either back home or working for others so I can take the long-shot at becoming a full-time, well-paid published author. I'd say that's the epitome of someone who has fully taken that idea to heart.

I've sacrificed a lot to continue chasing that dream. Even if I've been very slow about getting shit done, I've clearly got a vision I am pursuing.

So again, we are not on completely different pages. What I take issue with is you saying that and then griping about how none of your own passions make the cut and working for a living sucks. Come on, Man, that's nothing but negativity.

The real question is are you letting that belief/knowledge propel you to find or do something? Or are you just using it as a reason to stand still?

Quote:

Quote:btw one more thing... about work giving you a purpose in life. today I spend three hours writing about furniture. ya I can totally see how it would throw me into deep depression if I couldnt rely on this meaningful activity anymore

That is your choice. Not that I love the work, but I can't remember the last time I wrote drivel about furniture.

One forum member on here made it a policy to only work on stuff that interested him and he's done better than any other guy I've spoken too since this thread started.

Working on something you truly hate will most certainly not make you happy. Giving up on any idea of even having your own projects in life, on the other hand, will make you unhappy in the long term, even if you could suddenly retire. Whatever you feel about that idea, the science is there.

In any case, for most of us, working as a freelancer will be a beginning and nothing else, and it can lead a lot of directions. I'm not here to argue it's what everyone should do. I never have. And as you pointed out, I mentioned the negatives myself.

But acknowledging negatives is a lot different than repeatedly complaining about this line of work and then saying you don't want to work at all but want to be able to retire now. I'm not entirely sure why you can't see how what you wrote would inspire the type of reaction you received. You've stressed now that you meant retire so you could find your passion. Great. It wasn't clear in your other post.

I think if you struggle to find a path in life now, though, you'll probably struggle to find one even if you have the money. And would just let time slip by and become stagnant and unhappy as a result. That's just how humans are - you can't wait for a perfect time where you're all set up to find your passion.

Instead of getting defensive and feeling like you've been attacked, I encourage you to consider that you could have posed your idea a bit differently and been better received.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #502

Quote:My main issue with what you said is that you're ragging on working for others while also saying you don't want to work for yourself

you keep bringing that up but I never said that

in fact im planning to focus full time on my own ventures and would advise anyone to do the same

ill refrain from further comments since this is starting to feel like a huge waste of time

Post: #503

^ Fair enough, woot.

My apologies if I completely misunderstood you and ranted for nothing.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #504

Well i think im about to switch over to learning copy instead of programming. Ive began to realise that putting in so much hard work still doesnt get you far in this field. If i had spent the last few months learning copy I might be freelancing now. What helped me to reach this decision was reading a huge debate on the subject on another forum. Ive read 4 or 5 books on it so far, so my goal is now is to get work asap and be good. I dont have the 'ive always wanted to be a writer' to fall back on, so its going to be hard but i think i can do it.

Post: #505

(03-18-2015 02:32 PM)Alche Wrote:  Well i think im about to switch over to learning copy instead of programming. Ive began to realise that putting in so much hard work still doesnt get you far in this field. If i had spent the last few months learning copy I might be freelancing now. What helped me to reach this decision was reading a huge debate on the subject on another forum. Ive read 4 or 5 books on it so far, so my goal is now is to get work asap and be good. I dont have the 'ive always wanted to be a writer' to fall back on, so its going to be hard but i think i can do it.

As someone who has done both dev and some writing -- neither for freelance much but for my own projects -- I think they're both invaluable skills to have, but you gotta make the one you actually enjoy or at least tolerate your bread and butter.

For a fusion of these skills, I highly recommend http://www.programmingformarketers.com/

Post: #506

^How much is this course? Looks interesting.

Post: #507

How do long term, open ended jobs work on Elance? Starting out I had a friend award me a job and give a good review and combined with my pretty decent profile, I'm starting to get some job invites. One of them is asking for several weeks of contributing 3+ articles per week, with the first "milestone" being $20 for 2000 words .

I'd actually do the 2000 words just to build my profile and get a review, but I'm not going to commit to weeks and weeks of writing at such a niggardly rate. Does Elance arrange things such that the first "milestone" constitutes a complete job that disburses payment and prompts the client for a review, or would I actually be stuck writing for an indeterminate period of time until the client manually changed the status of the job as "complete?"

Post: #508

I got my first job on elance, I'm going to write an ebook for $35 per 1000 words (informal, 10k-15k words), its a topic I know very well so hopeful I can complete it in a few days. The guy doesn't need it formatted into an ebook, just wants me to provide the text and have it done asap. How does payment work, do I deliver it and then get paid, get paid some now and some after, do I take payment through paypal? I fucking have no clue. How can I be assured I'm not going to write this whole thing and not have him bail out at the end or something?

I'm also talking to another person on there about doing one article a week for the foreseeable future. I'm asking $50 per article, I don't know if that's too high starting out, but I feel like that will make it worth my time.

Do you guys think its worth it to pay for a membership? I sent out 5 proposals and then it cut me off, a free account gets 40 connects a month, $10 a month gets you 60, what does that translate into in terms of jobs you can propose to a month? I'd like to be sending out proposals daily at this stage.

I also want to thank everyone in this thread because without it I would never have gone down this path.

Post: #509

(03-22-2015 02:06 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  How do long term, open ended jobs work on Elance? Starting out I had a friend award me a job and give a good review and combined with my pretty decent profile, I'm starting to get some job invites. One of them is asking for several weeks of contributing 3+ articles per week, with the first "milestone" being $20 for 2000 words .

I'd actually do the 2000 words just to build my profile and get a review, but I'm not going to commit to weeks and weeks of writing at such a niggardly rate. Does Elance arrange things such that the first "milestone" constitutes a complete job that disburses payment and prompts the client for a review, or would I actually be stuck writing for an indeterminate period of time until the client manually changed the status of the job as "complete?"

The portion in bold is correct, at least from my experience.

I personally use oDesk, and what the client will do is ask for XX amount of work and deposit YY amount of money. Once you complete the initial assignment, they can add on milestones instead of going through the process of creating a new contract and job posting for every assignment.

I wouldn't get too worried about getting stuck with long term work unless you sign a contract. In general though, just avoid postings asking for "Long term work" for subjects you have no interest in; this should spare you any headaches in the future.

(03-24-2015 05:00 PM)aeroektar Wrote:  I got my first job on elance, I'm going to write an ebook for $35 per 1000 words (informal, 10k-15k words), its a topic I know very well so hopeful I can complete it in a few days. The guy doesn't need it formatted into an ebook, just wants me to provide the text and have it done asap. How does payment work, do I deliver it and then get paid, get paid some now and some after, do I take payment through paypal? I fucking have no clue. How can I be assured I'm not going to write this whole thing and not have him bail out at the end or something?

I'm also talking to another person on there about doing one article a week for the foreseeable future. I'm asking $50 per article, I don't know if that's too high starting out, but I feel like that will make it worth my time.

Do you guys think its worth it to pay for a membership? I sent out 5 proposals and then it cut me off, a free account gets 40 connects a month, $10 a month gets you 60, what does that translate into in terms of jobs you can propose to a month? I'd like to be sending out proposals daily at this stage.

I also want to thank everyone in this thread because without it I would never have gone down this path.

First of all $35 per 1000 words is a great start. Kudos!

In terms of payment, again I use oDesk which currently uses Escrow, which is when the client deposits the money to a 3rd party to ensure that the freelancer gets paid. Now oDesk and eLance are owned by the same people so it should be the same case.

Just make sure that they start a contract BEFORE you get started; that's really the only way to get cheated out of it. Make sure the money has been deposited prior to starting.

As for the $50 per article, how long are they? It's not a bad idea to start high, and if they say they can't do it then negotiate a fair price. Sounds like you're starting off well though.

And I honestly haven't looked into the membership at all. Currently, a lot of my work is from repeat customers. Once you build up a client base you shouldn't have to worry too much about bidding. If you find that you're doing everything right, but getting limited work, then it may be something to look into more.

Hope that helps guys.

Post: #510

I've gotten jobs without a membership active, but it seems my success rate is higher when I have a paid membership.

That may be because I apply more for jobs when I've put money into proposals.

Or maybe it looks better to prospective clients? Not sure how many of them check for the green 'paid member' sign on your profile. But to those who do check, it probably makes you look more serious about your work.

Post: #511

Can you post links to your guys profiles? Want to get an idea as to what a good profile looks like.

Post: #512

Some observations after freelancing for a week on Elance:
1) There is money to be made. If you have basic writing skills and are a native speaker in one or more languages, you can pick up some clients fast. There always seem to be people looking for somebody to write a 550-word article on the benefits of sewer cleaning computerized photography nano-fluxing. And if you have any skills in what they need, you'll be able to get some work.
2) Whoever runs Elance has thought this freelancing thing out. Any money for an accepted bid goes into escrow and stays there until the job is finished. Then there is 15 days to pay, refuse, arbitrate or pistol duels, I'm not sure which. In all honesty, I've hooked up with some decent people, but I made my profile look good from day one. They paid me pretty quick too.
3) That said, there are some cheap MoFo's out there. People who want you to ghost write their version of "War And Peace" for $20.00. I've had bad experiences with cheap bastards who wanted complicated articles for $5, so I was ready. And my expectation were met. So don't go on there expecting to find someone willing to pay you one thousand dollars on the first day.

Post: #513

(03-25-2015 11:48 AM)ColSpanker Wrote:  3) That said, there are some cheap MoFo's out there. People who want you to ghost write their version of "War And Peace" for $20.00.

And what is going to happen with those cheap MoFo's is a ban from Amazon. They will likely get tired of searching high and low for some American chump. When they don't find one, they'll settle for an Indian. That indian will scrape an article or copy another ebook outright, maybe change the first chapter which of course does nothing.

Amazon will find out (they ALWAYS find out) and ban his account.

There are a couple of Reddit stories like this going around. One was an erotica writer who thought he could hire an Indian ghostwriter for $40 to write a novella. His account was banned. By the time Amazon had found out about his outsourcing to plagiarists, he'd ordered three to four erom books written that belonged to some other chick (probably some HR cunt named Betty who writes in her spare time). Those whales get insane when their work's been copied/pasted.

Outsourcing is fine but, make sure you do a few things:

1.) Never go cheap. Anything less than $150 for a non-fiction book is a slap in the face. Pay the extra money and you'll reap the rewards

2.) TEST TEST TEST the writer. Make them write out a sample. Is their response professional? I find NDAs of limited value.

3.) Slip a codeword into the ad. Tell them to put this codeword at the beginning of their message. You weed out numbnuts who aren't detail-oriented this way.

Post: #514

(03-25-2015 12:12 PM)Soothesayer Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:48 AM)ColSpanker Wrote:  3) That said, there are some cheap MoFo's out there. People who want you to ghost write their version of "War And Peace" for $20.00.

And what is going to happen with those cheap MoFo's is a ban from Amazon. They will likely get tired of searching high and low for some American chump. When they don't find one, they'll settle for an Indian. That indian will scrape an article or copy another ebook outright, maybe change the first chapter which of course does nothing.

Amazon will find out (they ALWAYS find out) and ban his account.

There are a couple of Reddit stories like this going around. One was an erotica writer who thought he could hire an Indian ghostwriter for $40 to write a novella. His account was banned. By the time Amazon had found out about his outsourcing to plagiarists, he'd ordered three to four erom books written that belonged to some other chick (probably some HR cunt named Betty who writes in her spare time). Those whales get insane when their work's been copied/pasted.

Outsourcing is fine but, make sure you do a few things:

1.) Never go cheap. Anything less than $150 for a non-fiction book is a slap in the face. Pay the extra money and you'll reap the rewards

2.) TEST TEST TEST the writer. Make them write out a sample. Is their response professional? I find NDAs of limited value.

3.) Slip a codeword into the ad. Tell them to put this codeword at the beginning of their message. You weed out numbnuts who aren't detail-oriented this way.

Great post! Can you give the link to the Reddit story? This sounds like one hilarious read!

Post: #515

I always see jobs thrown up by people who want like 5-10 articles everyday for $1 per article. That shit is ludicrous.

Unfortunately this is more due to the economics of the internet than anything else. The internet demands quantity over quality. See buzzfeed, gawker, jezebel, and elite daily type websites for an example.

I feel like half of the people posting jobs wanting SEO experts and viral content have no idea what that even means.

This isn't elance's problem, it's the internet's problem. Everyone is trying to cash in on it but 20% of websites are making 80% of the money. Everyone else is just fighting for scraps and I am willing to bet most of the people posting jobs lose money and go home with their tails tucked between their legs.

You have to be a cunning bastard to really win at the internet. Look at the dude who ran the Ship Your Enemies Glitter website. He fabricated the entire thing and sold the site for $85,000 before he sent out a single order.

I did some work for a site who was hiring writers to pump out content for a lifestyle site. Whoever owned it had money to blow. By my math and based on what I got paid they have dropped a few thousand on this site since January and the only revenue they are getting is from adsense. They have no idea what they are doing and their website is a mess. Oh well, thanks for the cash I guess.

There is money to be made on elance but you have to seek the right opportunities. I have made the most cash on academic articles and I learn a lot working on those gigs and it is pretty enjoyable.

I am lucky that so far I have worked with good clients who have paid and left me good feedback right away. That's probably because I won't touch a job if the client seems like a retard.

I think my next focus is going to be on snagging a book job of some sort.

I am glad that I went down this road and got into freelance, but I am only beginning to understand how the internet actually works. I've really got to up my game to start making real money.

Post: #516

The smart people who write end up starting their own businesses and sites. The others get left in the abyss of bidding for jobs. There are so many freelancers on Odesk now that they are comming up with a new system now where you can only bid on 60 jobs per month.

You can see how many people have applied for certain jobs, the 'seo experts' and 'fitness' ones get over 50-70 applications.

I have several friends who freelance in desgin, programming and writing. It's a tough gig at the moment.

As GM said, clients have no idea of what they want. They will hire someone in Asia who can barely put a sentence together for $3 over paying for quality.

Post: #517

delete

Post: #518

Thanks to Beyond Borders for the information in this thread. I have picked up some work on elance over the past two weeks while I was interviewing for new jobs. I quickly picked up a project thanks to the advice in this thread. It has not paid that well, but it allowed me to complete a lot of milestones, build my portfolio, and get some positive feedback on my profile. I am considering keeping it going on the side, as I found a new job.

Post: #519

(03-24-2015 05:40 PM)Seth_Rose Wrote:  The portion in bold is correct, at least from my experience.

I personally use oDesk, and what the client will do is ask for XX amount of work and deposit YY amount of money. Once you complete the initial assignment, they can add on milestones instead of going through the process of creating a new contract and job posting for every assignment.

I wouldn't get too worried about getting stuck with long term work unless you sign a contract. In general though, just avoid postings asking for "Long term work" for subjects you have no interest in; this should spare you any headaches in the future.

Thanks for the explanation!

Post: #520

(03-25-2015 05:37 PM)Afarang Wrote:  The smart people who write end up starting their own businesses and sites. The others get left in the abyss of bidding for jobs. There are so many freelancers on Odesk now that they are comming up with a new system now where you can only bid on 60 jobs per month.

You can see how many people have applied for certain jobs, the 'seo experts' and 'fitness' ones get over 50-70 applications.

I have several friends who freelance in desgin, programming and writing. It's a tough gig at the moment.

As GM said, clients have no idea of what they want. They will hire someone in Asia who can barely put a sentence together for $3 over paying for quality.

People were saying that there was a lack of clients willing to pay when I first started about 7 years ago; that almost convinced me to not bother trying. They still say it today, as you are, and they will be saying it a decade from now.

After not bidding for months, I hopped on to Elance the week before last and dropped a small round of bids and within a couple days was writing someone's web content for $1000. 50% released from escrow up front. Then a PR company (met on Elance) who has been coming to me about a year now sent over a request via email for a few hours of work at $55 an hour. Then an INDIAN GUY contacted me about what is basically deep editing a couple articles for $120. I met him on Elance about a year ago as well and have done a lot of jobs for him since.

This was a batch of work I could easily complete in a week's time - a few days if I really applied myself and if the client was responsive (slow back and forth can be an issue, which is why it's good to have multiple projects at once if you want to maximize revenue).

And this is with me putting very little of what you might consider effort into the whole marketing thing. This is not an anomaly, by the way. My year essentially consists of working for old clients on odd jobs, often much bigger than those mentioned, and doing the odd round of bids as I need to. And then sometimes my referrals and emails through my blog or corporate site.

If I was to bid steadily instead of just when I need to pay the bills, I assure you I would be SWIMMING in work. I know that from experience. I don't want to be swimming in work right now, so I'm not going to - would rather focus on other things.

What you're perpetuating is true in part, but it's certainly not the whole truth. I also agree that you're better off pursuing other marketing streams like contacting companies directly or guest blogging. But to say you can't get a ton of great work on Elance, Odesk, and other sites with this reputation is simply wrong. There are many providers running full-time businesses thanks to these sites, and it's at least a good place to generate some work and experience fast, assuming you have the fortitude to look deeper and ignore the appearance that it's all bottom-dollar work there.

Anyhow, on a completely different topic, it sometimes bugs me how so many who email me and post in this thread are working for bottom dollar rates, essentially offering a high rate of service at a low price. I know that at those prices they'll get burnt out anyways and won't be able to compete for long, but it still makes me hesitant about sharing advice here. I share it to see you guys build a business and add value to the market - not become another low-cost provider.

Grit your teeth and raise your prices guys. Don't dilute the market by offering talent at these low rates. Competing on price is just going to kill your business anyhow - you'll never succeed with that mentality. Go get an entry-level corporate writing job for a while if that's what it takes to build up the self-confidence it takes to charge more. Start a blog for yourself or for a friend's company.

You're making us look bad.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #521

Sounds like if you applied yourself you would be making 6 figures BB

Post: #522

(03-28-2015 02:15 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 05:37 PM)Afarang Wrote:  The smart people who write end up starting their own businesses and sites. The others get left in the abyss of bidding for jobs. There are so many freelancers on Odesk now that they are comming up with a new system now where you can only bid on 60 jobs per month.

You can see how many people have applied for certain jobs, the 'seo experts' and 'fitness' ones get over 50-70 applications.

I have several friends who freelance in desgin, programming and writing. It's a tough gig at the moment.

As GM said, clients have no idea of what they want. They will hire someone in Asia who can barely put a sentence together for $3 over paying for quality.

People were saying that there was a lack of clients willing to pay when I first started about 7 years ago; that almost convinced me to not bother trying. They still say it today, as you are, and they will be saying it a decade from now.

After not bidding for months, I hopped on to Elance the week before last and dropped a small round of bids and within a couple days was writing someone's web content for $1000. 50% released from escrow up front. Then a PR company (met on Elance) who has been coming to me about a year now sent over a request via email for a few hours of work at $55 an hour. Then an INDIAN GUY contacted me about what is basically deep editing a couple articles for $120. I met him on Elance about a year ago as well and have done a lot of jobs for him since.

This was a batch of work I could easily complete in a week's time - a few days if I really applied myself and if the client was responsive (slow back and forth can be an issue, which is why it's good to have multiple projects at once if you want to maximize revenue).

And this is with me putting very little of what you might consider effort into the whole marketing thing. This is not an anomaly, by the way. My year essentially consists of working for old clients on odd jobs, often much bigger than those mentioned, and doing the odd round of bids as I need to. And then sometimes my referrals and emails through my blog or corporate site.

If I was to bid steadily instead of just when I need to pay the bills, I assure you I would be SWIMMING in work. I know that from experience. I don't want to be swimming in work right now, so I'm not going to - would rather focus on other things.

What you're perpetuating is true in part, but it's certainly not the whole truth. I also agree that you're better off pursuing other marketing streams like contacting companies directly or guest blogging. But to say you can't get a ton of great work on Elance, Odesk, and other sites with this reputation is simply wrong. There are many providers running full-time businesses thanks to these sites, and it's at least a good place to generate some work and experience fast, assuming you have the fortitude to look deeper and ignore the appearance that it's all bottom-dollar work there.

Anyhow, on a completely different topic, it sometimes bugs me how so many who email me and post in this thread are working for bottom dollar rates, essentially offering a high rate of service at a low price. I know that at those prices they'll get burnt out anyways and won't be able to compete for long, but it still makes me hesitant about sharing advice here. I share it to see you guys build a business and add value to the market - not become another low-cost provider.

Grit your teeth and raise your prices guys. Don't dilute the market by offering talent at these low rates. Competing on price is just going to kill your business anyhow - you'll never succeed with that mentality. Go get an entry-level corporate writing job for a while if that's what it takes to build up the self-confidence it takes to charge more. Start a blog for yourself or for a friend's company.

You're making us look bad.

Have you ever talked about what type of jobs you bid on/what you look for when you screen through proposals?

My biggest problem is filtering through jobs and figuring out which ones to bid on. I really like academic writing but I have trouble finding gigs like that. My other big problem is staying away from jobs that involve a high level of commitment. I recently turned down a pretty lucrative gig because it involved a huge commitment on my end. For the most part I have stuck with gigs where I can make a couple hundred bucks in a week.

I think another big problem that guys have is shying away from jobs where they don't have a ton of knowledge of the subject area. I try to overcome this the best I can and some of the best jobs I have worked on are ones where I went into them thinking, "man I hope I can pull this off."

Post: #523

(03-28-2015 02:15 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  Anyhow, on a completely different topic, it sometimes bugs me how so many who email me and post in this thread are working for bottom dollar rates, essentially offering a high rate of service at a low price. I know that at those prices they'll get burnt out anyways and won't be able to compete for long, but it still makes me hesitant about sharing advice here. I share it to see you guys build a business and add value to the market - not become another low-cost provider.

Grit your teeth and raise your prices guys. Don't dilute the market by offering talent at these low rates. Competing on price is just going to kill your business anyhow - you'll never succeed with that mentality. Go get an entry-level corporate writing job for a while if that's what it takes to build up the self-confidence it takes to charge more. Start a blog for yourself or for a friend's company.

You're making us look bad.

First of all, I want to thank you Double D for providing us all with the information we need to be successful on these freelance platforms. I wouldn't have had the courage to take the plunge without the knowledge you provided.
I realize some of us are bidding far too low. But some of us are trying to get established and without a track record, you have to take the shit jobs to get up to the better ones. However, that doesn't mean I will take just anything. I had to learn the hard way about content writing for some cheap ass MoFo off Craig's List, but it was a learning curve. So I am probably guilty of bidding too low just to get established.
At some point I want to be at the level where I can afford to turn things down even though I'd like to do them. I'm writing fiction and getting paid for it right now and I couldn't be happier.
Anyway you final paragraphs reminded me of this rant by SF writer Harlan Ellison:

Post: #524

I am considering using Elance and Odesk in the future. Had a quick look on Odesk and found some freelancers' profiles using keywords for my skill set. There seem to be two disparate groups: (1) people with good reviews and credentials, many are US and Canada-based, who charge relatively high rates, and (2) mostly Indian and some Philippino consultants who charge a lot less even if they have good reviews.

A few questions:

-How do Odesk and Elance determine your location? For example, if you are currently based in the US and then move to Vietnam or whatever, do you have to change the location or can you still claim that you are US-based?

-If you look for projects that require two very different skill sets, how do you make your profile. For example, if I want to make money using technical skills but also bid for translation jobs from English to Russian, does it make sense to build two separate profiles with different names or just build one technical profile and mention translation services there as well?

-How important are test scores? I see that many freelancers on Odesk take relevant tests (e.g. English Writing, Translation, etc) and show scores on their profile pages. Some mention high scores in their profile description as a selling point.

Post: #525

What should one do to build a portfolio? What type of sample articles and what not and how long should they be and what topics?