Post: #26

Atheism is just as irrational as theism.

Theists: Purporting to know there exists a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

Atheists: Purporting to know there does not exist a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

How can either side claim to be right when talking about something that is beyond human comprehension? By definition it cannot be understood so it is impossible to say you know for sure that it does or does not exist.

Therefore, the only rational position is agnosticism.

Post: #27

Trendy? I just consider it human progress. Sam Harris has a lot of great stuff. Very thoughtful guy, who is a bit more tame than Richard Dawkins. And not a raging liberal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW1kvmSFQWE

Post: #28

(05-23-2013 08:59 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Atheism is just as irrational as theism.

Theists: Purporting to know there exists a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

Atheists: Purporting to know there does not exist a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

How can either side claim to be right when talking about something that is beyond human comprehension? By definition it cannot be understood so it is impossible to say you know for sure that it does or does not exist.

Therefore, the only rational position is agnosticism.

Possible...but most theists have holy books that claim to have been written by divine intervention. They also have purported prophets. Large claims that require large amounts of evidence...for which they have none.

Post: #29

(05-23-2013 08:59 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Atheism is just as irrational as theism.

Theists: Purporting to know there exists a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

Atheists: Purporting to know there does not exist a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

How can either side claim to be right when talking about something that is beyond human comprehension? By definition it cannot be understood so it is impossible to say you know for sure that it does or does not exist.

Therefore, the only rational position is agnosticism.

I agree with this. I think it's almost as bad to say that a "god" absolutely does not exist. I'm saying I think the bible (Or Quran, or any other religious book I've been presented) is pretty absurd, but that doesn't mean I don't believe there is something bigger than us out there. I also don't think any religion has it right. I would consider myself agnostic. I do however believe that atheism is more rational than religion and can see why people don't buy into religion, but agnosticism is more rational than both IMO. Here's a good rhetoric Dawkins gives about being religion though. If you think about it, all religious people are atheists against every other god than their own. Being religious is like playing the holy lottery.

Post: #30

(05-23-2013 09:02 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:59 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Atheism is just as irrational as theism.

Theists: Purporting to know there exists a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

Atheists: Purporting to know there does not exist a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

How can either side claim to be right when talking about something that is beyond human comprehension? By definition it cannot be understood so it is impossible to say you know for sure that it does or does not exist.

Therefore, the only rational position is agnosticism.

Possible...but most theists have holy books that claim to have been written by divine intervention. They also have purported prophets. Large claims that require large amounts of evidence...for which they have none.

Dude, there's no evidence either way. Just because no one saw the crime doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Now, whether or not one religion is more right than another, again, there's no way to know. Maybe one is true? Shit, this universe is vast and it seems like anything is possible.

Agnosticism is still the most rational position.

Post: #31

(05-23-2013 08:55 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:52 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 07:58 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  I don't think it necessarily became cool and trendy, I think people just started to realize that religion is a crock of shit.

Why is religion a crock of shit?

Which one? Christianity? Do you sincerely believe that a dude packed 2 of every animal into a boat and kept them afloat while the whole world flooded? Religion is out dated man. It just doesn't make sense. I'm all for people following the good parts of it while turning their head to the bad parts, but really? A lot of it just doesn't add up these days.

In the Catholic Church, we have never taken a position of biblical literalism. We recognize some stories as parables that carry a higher moral significance as opposed to being taken as historical matter of fact. It is a shame you mock such parables and find no greater meaning in them, and reduce Christianity just to them. Your words on Christianity just show how shallow your understanding of the faith is. I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians.

Post: #32

(05-23-2013 09:09 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 09:02 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:59 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Atheism is just as irrational as theism.

Theists: Purporting to know there exists a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

Atheists: Purporting to know there does not exist a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

How can either side claim to be right when talking about something that is beyond human comprehension? By definition it cannot be understood so it is impossible to say you know for sure that it does or does not exist.

Therefore, the only rational position is agnosticism.

Possible...but most theists have holy books that claim to have been written by divine intervention. They also have purported prophets. Large claims that require large amounts of evidence...for which they have none.

Dude, there's no evidence either way. Just because no one saw the crime doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Now, whether or not one religion is more right than another, again, there's no way to know. Maybe one is true? Shit, this universe is vast and it seems like anything is possible.

Agnosticism is still the most rational position.

Not always. See below.

Quote:In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

Post: #33

(05-23-2013 09:10 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:55 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:52 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 07:58 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  I don't think it necessarily became cool and trendy, I think people just started to realize that religion is a crock of shit.

Why is religion a crock of shit?

Which one? Christianity? Do you sincerely believe that a dude packed 2 of every animal into a boat and kept them afloat while the whole world flooded? Religion is out dated man. It just doesn't make sense. I'm all for people following the good parts of it while turning their head to the bad parts, but really? A lot of it just doesn't add up these days.

In the Catholic Church, we have never taken a position of biblical literalism. We recognize some stories as parables that carry a higher moral significance as opposed to being taken as historical matter of fact. It is a shame you mock such parables and find no greater meaning in them, and reduce Christianity just to them. Your words on Christianity just show how shallow your understanding of the faith is. I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians.

Ha! I grew up in the Christian church and have done my research, which is why I have the beliefs that I do. I took mission trips to Mexico to build houses with the church, went to church camp every summer, and my father goes to church 3-4 days a week, you know how many countless amount of hours I've spent in a church? Please, save it. If the bible isn't literal, then what makes you say that John 3:16 isn't a sham? How do you know heaven isn't a sham? So basically what you're saying is you go through the bible and pick out the parts you like and can agree with and say, "Yeah, that must be right," while writing off the parts that are "bad" and don't make sense? It doesn't work that way. I also like you're holier than thou attitude, "I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians." Another big reason why I don't like religion. A large part of what gears religion is condemnation and fear.

Post: #34

(05-23-2013 09:42 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 09:10 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:55 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:52 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 07:58 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  I don't think it necessarily became cool and trendy, I think people just started to realize that religion is a crock of shit.

Why is religion a crock of shit?

Which one? Christianity? Do you sincerely believe that a dude packed 2 of every animal into a boat and kept them afloat while the whole world flooded? Religion is out dated man. It just doesn't make sense. I'm all for people following the good parts of it while turning their head to the bad parts, but really? A lot of it just doesn't add up these days.

In the Catholic Church, we have never taken a position of biblical literalism. We recognize some stories as parables that carry a higher moral significance as opposed to being taken as historical matter of fact. It is a shame you mock such parables and find no greater meaning in them, and reduce Christianity just to them. Your words on Christianity just show how shallow your understanding of the faith is. I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians.

Ha! I grew up in the Christian church and have done my research, which is why I have the beliefs that I do. I took mission trips to Mexico to build houses with the church, went to church camp every summer, and my father goes to church 3-4 days a week, you know how many countless amount of hours I've spent in a church? Please, save it. If the bible isn't literal, then what makes you say that John 3:16 isn't a sham? How do you know heaven isn't a sham? So basically what you're saying is you go through the bible and pick out the parts you like and can agree with and say, "Yeah, that must be right," while writing off the parts that are "bad" and don't make sense? It doesn't work that way.

You seem to have spent a lot of time in a Church, but you still don't have a proper understanding of Christianity. I take it you were a protestant?

None of the Bible is a sham, no one is picking and choosing, here in lies your misunderstanding of Christianity. It is a misunderstanding that generally comes along with the flawed theological doctrine behind protestantism.

Post: #35

It's not trendy, it's just that as people become more highly educated, they begin to see the logical flaws present in the religions that we have.

I grew up Catholic and even attended a Catholic university. Through much of my studies I began to understand that the need for religious beliefs comes from the human desire for everything to make sense. People want the world to be fair.

The concept of Karma, for example, mirrors the Newtonian idea that "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

For those of us who don't see some kind of ultimate cosmic justice evident in the universe, atheism is the logical conclusion.

I've accepted that I live in a chaotic reality. I've swallowed the "red pill" of spirituality.

Post: #36

Basically what I'm getting from you is that I don't understand Christianity because I don't believe in it. Otherwise I don't see how you've come to this conclusion. Here you go with the holier than thou attitude again. How Protestantism is flawed. Obviously only your church has it right, correct? Everyone else must be going to hell. I guess everyone must have went to hell before your religion came around as well, god must have been pretty lonely up there. How are you saying you aren't picking and choosing when you say, "We recognize some stories as parables that carry a higher moral significance as opposed to being taken as historical matter of fact. It is a shame you mock such parables and find no greater meaning in them, and reduce Christianity just to them." Again, how do you know that John 3:16 isn't actually meaning that heaven is actually really only the tranquility you feel through religion here on earth, and that the way that most Christians believe in heaven doesn't actually exist?

Post: #37

(05-23-2013 09:42 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 09:10 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:55 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:52 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 07:58 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  I don't think it necessarily became cool and trendy, I think people just started to realize that religion is a crock of shit.

Why is religion a crock of shit?

Which one? Christianity? Do you sincerely believe that a dude packed 2 of every animal into a boat and kept them afloat while the whole world flooded? Religion is out dated man. It just doesn't make sense. I'm all for people following the good parts of it while turning their head to the bad parts, but really? A lot of it just doesn't add up these days.

In the Catholic Church, we have never taken a position of biblical literalism. We recognize some stories as parables that carry a higher moral significance as opposed to being taken as historical matter of fact. It is a shame you mock such parables and find no greater meaning in them, and reduce Christianity just to them. Your words on Christianity just show how shallow your understanding of the faith is. I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians.

I also like you're holier than thou attitude, "I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians." Another big reason why I don't like religion. A large part of what gears religion is condemnation and fear.

You don't like religion because of those that don't follow it? This should inspire you to follow a higher standard and set and example for those below you, not to scorn them and debase yourself to their level. That is hypocritical.

Post: #38

(05-23-2013 10:09 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 09:42 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 09:10 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:55 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:52 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  Why is religion a crock of shit?

Which one? Christianity? Do you sincerely believe that a dude packed 2 of every animal into a boat and kept them afloat while the whole world flooded? Religion is out dated man. It just doesn't make sense. I'm all for people following the good parts of it while turning their head to the bad parts, but really? A lot of it just doesn't add up these days.

In the Catholic Church, we have never taken a position of biblical literalism. We recognize some stories as parables that carry a higher moral significance as opposed to being taken as historical matter of fact. It is a shame you mock such parables and find no greater meaning in them, and reduce Christianity just to them. Your words on Christianity just show how shallow your understanding of the faith is. I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians.

I also like you're holier than thou attitude, "I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians." Another big reason why I don't like religion. A large part of what gears religion is condemnation and fear.

You don't like religion because of those that don't follow it? This should inspire you to follow a higher standard and set and example for those below you, not to scorn them and debase yourself to their level. That is hypocritical.

I'm lost dude. I'm talking about not liking religion because of how the church condemns and pounds fear into your head. You're saying I don't like religion because of those that don't follow it. You're really confusing me man. Speaking of scorning, it sounds like your whole protestantism is a fraud idea sounds pretty condescending to me.

Post: #39

(05-23-2013 08:53 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  The media has gradually pushed religion into the margins of society. In Europe this process is all but complete for Christianity but even in the U.S. it's made enormous progress in even just the last decade. It's no surprise since most journalists and media executives are not only not religious but aren't even of Christian ancestry. As a result, the media and academia have an axe to grind to ensure that Christianity is ground to dust and it looks like they're getting their wish.

My sense is that atheism leaves an enormous vacuum in society, which is being replaced by nothing except political correctness, environmentalism, feminism, and the like. When historians look back they'll observe wistfully that purely secular societies fell into technological and economic stagnation precisely because they lost the Protestant work ethic which Max Weber so ably described.

This is an interesting point, and one that I have thought about immensely. Perhaps religion is what keeps societies from falling into hedonism or moral relativism. People seem driven to adopt some form of "guiding principles", and in the absence of religion, I am not sure what would take that place.

Post: #40

(05-23-2013 10:12 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:09 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 09:42 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 09:10 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:55 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Which one? Christianity? Do you sincerely believe that a dude packed 2 of every animal into a boat and kept them afloat while the whole world flooded? Religion is out dated man. It just doesn't make sense. I'm all for people following the good parts of it while turning their head to the bad parts, but really? A lot of it just doesn't add up these days.

In the Catholic Church, we have never taken a position of biblical literalism. We recognize some stories as parables that carry a higher moral significance as opposed to being taken as historical matter of fact. It is a shame you mock such parables and find no greater meaning in them, and reduce Christianity just to them. Your words on Christianity just show how shallow your understanding of the faith is. I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians.

I also like you're holier than thou attitude, "I also don't look highly on cafeteria Christians." Another big reason why I don't like religion. A large part of what gears religion is condemnation and fear.

You don't like religion because of those that don't follow it? This should inspire you to follow a higher standard and set and example for those below you, not to scorn them and debase yourself to their level. That is hypocritical.

I'm lost dude. I'm talking about not liking religion because of how the church condemns and pounds fear into your head. You're saying I don't like religion because of those that don't follow it. You're really confusing me man. Speaking of scorning, it sounds like your whole protestantism is a fraud idea sounds pretty condescending to me.

Well maybe I misunderstood, I got the idea you don't like cafeteria christians, and thus dislike Christianity. Correct me if I am wrong.

I don't get it, don't you think religion is a fraud, wouldn't protestantism enter that equation for you? I am on hating on devout and good protestants, I am hating on their doctrine though. I think following the doctrine to it's logical conclusion has negative religious and moral consequences.

Post: #41

(05-23-2013 08:53 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  The media has gradually pushed religion into the margins of society. In Europe this process is all but complete for Christianity but even in the U.S. it's made enormous progress in even just the last decade. It's no surprise since most journalists and media executives are not only not religious but aren't even of Christian ancestry. As a result, the media and academia have an axe to grind to ensure that Christianity is ground to dust and it looks like they're getting their wish.

My sense is that atheism leaves an enormous vacuum in society, which is being replaced by nothing except political correctness, environmentalism, feminism, and the like. When historians look back they'll observe wistfully that purely secular societies fell into technological and economic stagnation precisely because they lost the Protestant work ethic which Max Weber so ably described.

I think that's just a western phenomenon. The East Asian countries have been atheist/religiously skeptical longer than the west and more so and their work ethic is... err... still pretty hardcore.

Post: #42

(05-23-2013 08:53 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  It's no surprise since most journalists and media executives are not only not religious but aren't even of Christian ancestry.

Please elaborate. Not sure I follow.

Many journalists and media executives may not believe in god but most of them should be of Christian ancestry, especially in North America.

Post: #43

I also notice a lot of these specific types of atheists seem to "fucking love science" and post Carl Sagan and Neil deGrasse Tyson quotes constantly. I think for them being into atheism is akin to how some people claim to be super into quantum physics, string theory, or whatever: basically another way to show how they are more intelligent then the idiot masses.

Post: #44

(05-23-2013 10:20 PM)Derpface200 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:53 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  The media has gradually pushed religion into the margins of society. In Europe this process is all but complete for Christianity but even in the U.S. it's made enormous progress in even just the last decade. It's no surprise since most journalists and media executives are not only not religious but aren't even of Christian ancestry. As a result, the media and academia have an axe to grind to ensure that Christianity is ground to dust and it looks like they're getting their wish.

My sense is that atheism leaves an enormous vacuum in society, which is being replaced by nothing except political correctness, environmentalism, feminism, and the like. When historians look back they'll observe wistfully that purely secular societies fell into technological and economic stagnation precisely because they lost the Protestant work ethic which Max Weber so ably described.

I think that's just a western phenomenon. The East Asian countries have been atheist/religiously skeptical longer than the west and more so and their work ethic is... err... still pretty hardcore.

Are they atheistic? Superstition is rife in most Asian countries. They're not religious in the Western monotheistic sense, but they retain a set of folk beliefs and superstitions. This is especially true for ethnic Chinese.

Moreover, have these countries advanced the technological frontier in modern times? Or have they in the end just basically adopted Western industrialism? My point is that the West created the world's first industrial revolution in predominately Protestant nations. Since that time, Catholic, Confucian/Buddhist, and even Muslim nations have followed suit in developing industrially. But has any non-Western nation progressed beyond the leading Western countries? Nope. The richest large country is still the U.S., even in our decline.

For example, the author Tom Wolfe has written about the origins of Silicon Valley and how most of the founders of the computer industry were, if not religious themselves, steeped from childhood in a distinctive Protestant Christian culture.

I'm not dogmatically pro-religious as a political matter, although I'm a believer. But if religion is dead then it needs a viable organic substitute and atheism isn't it. Fascism attempted to provide that substitute but was beaten into submission by the U.S. and Soviet Union. I sometimes wonder if the ultimate red pill will be for men to rediscover fascist writings from the early 20th century.

Post: #45

(05-23-2013 10:09 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Basically what I'm getting from you is that I don't understand Christianity because I don't believe in it. Otherwise I don't see how you've come to this conclusion. Here you go with the holier than thou attitude again. How Protestantism is flawed. Obviously only your church has it right, correct? Everyone else must be going to hell. I guess everyone must have went to hell before your religion came around as well, god must have been pretty lonely up there. How are you saying you aren't picking and choosing when you say, "We recognize some stories as parables that carry a higher moral significance as opposed to being taken as historical matter of fact. It is a shame you mock such parables and find no greater meaning in them, and reduce Christianity just to them." Again, how do you know that John 3:16 isn't actually meaning that heaven is actually really only the tranquility you feel through religion here on earth, and that the way that most Christians believe in heaven doesn't actually exist?

Well, you have it wrong.

Well it is the first Church, ordered by Christ and built by his Apostles, so yes, it is the true Church, and the earthly enforcer of God's law. No one said anything about hell.

I am not picking and choosing, I am following Church Doctrine on this one. Rejecting Biblical Literalism isn't picking and choosing, because the Catholic Church never took the Bible with a literal interpretation to begin with. Picking and choosing is deciding which Church doctrine you wish to follow according to your convenience. Your premise is flawed because you assume this was the initial position.

Post: #46

(05-23-2013 07:55 PM)houston Wrote:  I'm spiritual but not religious. I don't think anyone knows this except some family members. When did it become cool and trendy to be an atheist? Why do people have to announce to the world that they don't believe in a God and how backwards and closed minded Christians are (it's cool to and funny to hate on Christians. You're mean if you say anything about any other religions).

The internet had a big part to do with it. Just like how many of the memes and internet culture stuff that was still only recognized by people who were "in the know" about 4-5 years are now popular and a way to show how you are cutting edge (ie. girls saying they are "nerds", talking about zombies or how you are a "90s kid") so is it with the new sort of atheism.

Post: #47

(05-23-2013 10:35 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:20 PM)Derpface200 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:53 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  The media has gradually pushed religion into the margins of society. In Europe this process is all but complete for Christianity but even in the U.S. it's made enormous progress in even just the last decade. It's no surprise since most journalists and media executives are not only not religious but aren't even of Christian ancestry. As a result, the media and academia have an axe to grind to ensure that Christianity is ground to dust and it looks like they're getting their wish.

My sense is that atheism leaves an enormous vacuum in society, which is being replaced by nothing except political correctness, environmentalism, feminism, and the like. When historians look back they'll observe wistfully that purely secular societies fell into technological and economic stagnation precisely because they lost the Protestant work ethic which Max Weber so ably described.

I think that's just a western phenomenon. The East Asian countries have been atheist/religiously skeptical longer than the west and more so and their work ethic is... err... still pretty hardcore.

Are they atheistic? Superstition is rife in most Asian countries. They're not religious in the Western monotheistic sense, but they retain a set of folk beliefs and superstitions. This is especially true for ethnic Chinese.

Correct here. I'm East Asian myself and I don't get it when a lot of these intellectual progressive anti-religious Western types assume that East Asia is some sort of atheistic super rationalistic wonderland that they would love the West to emulate. Confucius-ism, which gets held up as a example of a humanistic secular system by these type of people makes constant reference to "tian" or heaven and how man is meant to live in accordance with the laws of heaven. Confucius is supposed to be model of a secular saint but even he seems to assume the existence of more perfect plane of existence that is above and beyond this earthly one.

Same with Buddhism. Again, SWPL types seem to love it for how it is supposed to be atheistic which isn't true. If anything, it is agnostic as Buddha himself refused to answer whether there was any sort of divine supreme being. And as we know, religion as it is actually practiced by the common person is quite different from what it's supposed ideals are meant to be. For the majority of Buddhists in Asia, Buddha basically is the equivalent of God. Not a creator God but one who can be called onto for assistance and to beseech to and gives thanks to. Walk into a Buddhist temple in these countries and you see people praying to a statue of him for divine assistance in the same way you'll see people from any other culture praying to their respective deities for help.

I also want to add that the most pure form of theocracy that the world has ever seen is NOT in the Christian or Muslim world but was actually found in Tibet with the Dalai Lamas and the monks that were both religious and political leaders combined in one. When the Catholic Church still reigned supreme in the West, while priests and kings were in cahoots they still occupied different roles. With Tibet the religious leaders were also the political leaders.


Another error that people assume is that if a society if atheistic then it must also be a society full of Richard Dawkin types and other "enlightened" people that are paragons of rationality and science based reasoning. Not so. Sweden, perhaps the most atheistic country in the West has tons of New Age people. I remember watching a Swedish program once where a guy was going around asking people on the streets religious questions. He asked two girls if they believed in God and they said no. He then asked them if they believed in miracles and they responded yes. I wouldn't be surprised if these chicks also checked their horoscopes each day.

Post: #48

(05-23-2013 10:35 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  Are they atheistic? Superstition is rife in most Asian countries. They're not religious in the Western monotheistic sense, but they retain a set of folk beliefs and superstitions. This is especially true for ethnic Chinese.

Yes. A huge proportion of East Asians are. However, it gets a little confusing because traditional Buddhism, Daoism (which is the basis for a lot of Chinese folk religion), and Confucianism are more like self help movements or secular philosophies than religions because they deny or simply don't care about the existence of god(s). I'll only refer to atheists and agnostics for simplicity's sake but the actual number of people who don't believe in a higher power is pretty high.

Last time I checked about ~30-40% of South Koreans/Taiwanese were agnostic/atheist. It's higher in Japan, China, and Vietnam AFAIK (~40-60%).

Even the most radically European liberal nations like Norway or whatever barely break the 30% mark for agnosticism/atheism.

Of course, I'm just a silly white dude with a minor in East Asian studies so some of the complexities are still a bit fuzzy to me.

Quote:Moreover, have these countries advanced the technological frontier in modern times? Or have they in the end just basically adopted Western industrialism?

Yes? Singapore, South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan are at or even slightly above the US's level for industrialization and technological development although they aren't that big in absolute terms due to small populations. Their cultures are still pretty distinct from the west too. There's a sort of authoritarianism, filial piety, and collectivism that would be completely unacceptable to western liberals and conservatives for various reasons.

So they have pushed to the top of the pack without adopting western values.

I feel like I'm saying that the sky is blue here. :/

Quote:My point is that the West created the world's first industrial revolution in predominately Protestant nations. Since that time, Catholic, Confucian/Buddhist, and even Muslim nations have followed suit in developing industrially. But has any non-Western nation progressed beyond the leading Western countries? Nope. The richest large country is still the U.S., even in our decline.

The argument you are making is quite sketchy. Your argument essentially which boils down to protestant religion leads to industrialization is a correlation not a causation. Unless you'd like to present research showing that socio-economic and political factors are not the reason behind industrialization.

Also, I would argue that the United States position as global top dog is not due to the protestant religion but rather the fact that they were the only major nation who didn't have their shit completely wrecked by World War I and World War II. You are again making a faulty logical connection.

As an aside, I would note that India and China are on trajectory to surpass the United States in the coming century. This is not really surprising though, given that China and India have always been #1 and #2 for the past 4000 years or something.

Quote:For example, the author Tom Wolfe has written about the origins of Silicon Valley and how most of the founders of the computer industry were, if not religious themselves, steeped from childhood in a distinctive Protestant Christian culture.

Most of America's educated, wealthy upper class is also composed of white protestants because they got here first, killed off the Natives, and secured the top positions for themselves and their kids. This seems more like correlation than causation. It's like arguing that rain causes lightning because they accompany each other a lot of the time.

Quote:I'm not dogmatically pro-religious as a political matter, although I'm a believer. But if religion is dead then it needs a viable organic substitute and atheism isn't it. Fascism attempted to provide that substitute but was beaten into submission by the U.S. and Soviet Union. I sometimes wonder if the ultimate red pill will be for men to rediscover fascist writings from the early 20th century.

Current levels of economic growth and western largesse are not possible without free trade. The bout of nationalist trade wars during the Great Depression that put Hitler in power and caused a double dip depression are excellent proof of that. I would argue that unless grinding poverty and a global cold war is your idea of a brighter future, that hardcore nationalism/fascism is not the way forward.

I would also like to conclude by saying that East Asian "religions"/philosophies and their widespread atheism demonstrate that people can have meaningful belief systems without the vicious partisan debates that the three monotheistic religions ala Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have all the time.

Post: #49

Also, South Korea actually has a pretty large number of Christians and they tend to be more zealous then a lot of Western Christians for who religion seems to be mostly a cultural thing. I'm Taiwanese myself and I can tell you that every time I go back that Christianity seems to be getting more and more of a foot hold. 10 years ago was when I noticed more churches popping up. A few years after that, I started noticing more Christian programming on television - including a dedicated channel called Good TV. Now when I go to shopping centers and the like I'll see Christian theme post cards, stationary, etc.

Post: #50

(05-23-2013 11:09 PM)Wutang Wrote:  Also, South Korea actually has a pretty large number of Christians and they tend to be more zealous then a lot of Western Christians for who religion seems to be mostly a cultural thing. I'm Taiwanese myself and I can tell you that every time I go back that Christianity seems to be getting more and more of a foot hold. 10 years ago was when I noticed more churches popping up. A few years after that, I started noticing more Christian programming on television - including a dedicated channel called Good TV. Now when I go to shopping centers and the like I'll see Christian theme post cards, stationary, etc.

Christianity is on the rise in South Korea in some hilarious bastardized form. I've read about it. It still doesn't change the fact that ~30-40% of the population is irreligious. Which is unthinkable by Western standards, period.

I will note that Christianity is also on the rise in China as well as Taiwan as you note. I've seen it myself. However, to me, it seems like a lot of Christianity's success in Asia is due to Asian hipsters wanting be western and hip like in them Hollywood flicks rather than genuine belief. That's really funny actually. We're here talking about Western hipsters being atheists to be cool and across the Pacific, Asian hipsters are turning to religion to be hip and cool. LOL

EDIT: I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.