Post: #51

(05-23-2013 10:59 PM)Wutang Wrote:  *SNIP*

First things first: the Tibetan theocracy was a nightmarish hyper religious slave owning shit-hole version of North Korea that would make the Spanish Inquisition piss their pants in terror. If there was anything that the Chinese communists did that was good, it was to take down the Dalai Llamas. Anyways, it's a historically defunct outlier to our discussion.

Like I said earlier, the lines are really blurry in regards to philosophy and religion in East Asia.

For Confucianism: The texts do make reference to Tian, and heaven and declare the Emperor as a divine Son of Heaven. However, the entire point of Confucianism is a focus on worldly or secular matters like family and obedience to the Emperor and authority. The existence of an after life and Gods is almost completely irrelevant in Confucianism. This is why people call it secular.

For Buddhism: I agree that it is treated as a divinity in a folk sense by many Asians. However, I would like to point out that Buddhism is again focused on worldly affairs because you get reincarnated rather than running off to 72 virgins or heaven or whatever. The older of the big three sects, the Thereveda sect is also pretty agnostic and not too big on supernatural shit either.

For Daoism: Like Confucianism, is pretty secular. Its essentially a troll, paradoxical discussion of nature and how we can adapt our minds and lifestyles to not get chewed up and shat out by life's challenges. There's a lot of local fol deities and shit that people added on to the philosophy but its secular at its heart.

Note that all of these are different from western monotheism because at their core, despite all the fun, weird shit that Asians have tacked on over the years, they are still concerned with the secular affairs of THIS LIFE. They don't really care or acknowledge and after life and don't place too much stock in faith in divine gods. The main point of these religions/philosophy is to change how you, as a person can change to live harmoniously with nature, not how praying to God will make everything better. That's why I compared them with secular self help movements, because they focus on human experiences in this life, the real world.

Also, a lot of these religions are pretty chill with worship of other deities and non-confrontational at heart hence the whole polytheism thing. I never really liked how Christianity and Islam were essentially built around "ASSIMILATE OR BURN IN HELL" thinking. [/quote]

Post: #52

(05-23-2013 08:59 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Atheism is just as irrational as theism.

Theists: Purporting to know there exists a greater entity that is beyond all human comprehension.

No, the point of religion is to express belief in something that obviously does not exist. Religion is a group identity and the expressed beliefs are meant to create a believer/unbeliever dynamic. Any claim that's plausible is useless for a basis of religion.

We've been able to calculate the time of sunrise for a very long time and a lot of cultures figured this out separately. Get together a bunch of people and talk about how much you believe that the sun will rise tomorrow at this and that time and, well, that's a useless basis for a religion as everyone will just go, well, no shit, we know that.

Get together a bunch of people and talk about how much you believe in invisible, unprovable unicorns that send you messages, well, most people will laugh at you and be hostile, but if you're an exceptionally charismatic person some people will want to be on your side and they'll claim to believe with you. Then it becomes an us versus them thing and enforces the beliefs. If it goes from a cult to a religion it might outlive the founder and become a group identity thing.

Religion is bullshit because it's meant to be bullshit. Sometimes the charismatic founder is a sociopath who knows he's bullshitting people, sometimes he's a nutcase with hallucinations, sometimes something else, but follower psychology is pretty much all the same. They see that they can be part of a group simply by adopting the beliefs and they go with it.

Cult leaders would be nice study cases for game, it's amazing how charismatic guys can convince people of crazy stuff simply by being so charismatic that tons of people compete for their approval. There's no reason to be a public atheist considering how useful religion is but if you forget that it's bullshit you'll be one of the guys that gets used.

Quote:How can either side claim to be right when talking about something that is beyond human comprehension?

Last time I had to listen to a Christian creed, it was full of stuff about believing that a dude who could do miracles was born from a virgin and rose from the dead and so on. These are not claims "beyond human comprehension".

There are, of course, a lot of things that ARE beyond human comprehension but I don't see why religion should take credit for them. Take mathematics for example - if you study it you eventually reach your limits and run into proofs and theorems that you can't understand anymore. A race of aliens ten times more intelligent than humans would have tons of theorems that no human could ever understand. There's nothing mystical at all about something being beyond ordinary human comprehension - but that too makes a terrible basis for religion because nobody wants to spend hours in church listening to things that make absolutely no sense to them.

Every religion makes a bunch of nonsensical claims about things that are well within human comprehension because they have to. They wouldn't be successful religions otherwise.

Post: #53

I'm an atheist - but I don't make a religion out of it.

For what it is worth - I preferred it when it was less 'cool' to be atheist. But then I guess in the UK - being atheist has always being pretty common.

Here - Penn Jillette has an interesting take on being 'Agnostic':





Anyway - I am a huge fan of Richard Dawkins. His books on evolution are easily some of the very best books I have read. He has a wonderfully clear and vivid way of explaining evolution. Personally - I wish he had never gotten distracted by the whole 'God' issue. But I guess after about 6 books he felt he had nothing more to say about evolution.

To finish. This video always makes me laugh. It is Richard Dawkins reading out some of the hate mail he has received:

Post: #54

Atheism has been trendy for years. There's no investment outside of reading "The God Delusion" and dropping some hate every now and then, and it goes with hipsterism like PBR and goodwill flannel shirts. You're automatically "edgy" and "combative" in any limp-wristed liberal arts seminar.

I still think it is better than Catholicism and agnosticism, both of which I tried on my descent into atheism. There's no sense in making a public forum of every personal belief, despite this, which is why I think 'spiritual' journeys should be personal. It seems cheap to share this kind of shit with the world.

(05-23-2013 11:51 PM)TheBlackNarwhal Wrote:  If religious-minded people can post and talk about their religion all day long, then atheists can share their views and ideas too. It's beating a dead horse, but that's a right.

I went to an end of the year party where there were these people talking about atheism and religion, and two catholics got into an argument with some "agnostic atheists". I don't know what it is when I hear anything about religion or atheism, but it just shuts something off in my brain. It's like the mindless rapport seeking of girls talking to each other. The purpose of it is just to dominate conversation but the effect is to bore everybody else to death.

Post: #55

Instead of looking at atheism as "trendy" I look at it as a motivator to learn more about our world in a scientific and logical manner. I have always been a skeptic of many things, especially religion, so I'm always trying to look at things from a factual and critical perspective. "I don't know, therefore God" is a cop-out.

If religious-minded people can post and talk about their religion all day long, then atheists can share their views and ideas too. It's beating a dead horse, but that's a right.

Post: #56

Yep East Asians tend to be a lot more nebulous when it comes to religious identities. It's not like the US where you have strict , distinct separation between a Catholic, a Methodist, a Reform jew, an atheist, etc.

As for Threveda Buddhism there actually is some supernatural elements to it as well. I remember reading about the equivalent of saints in that sect and was struck by how similar they were to Catholic saints. The saints in this form of Buddhism are said to have corpses that would not rot and that parts of their bodies would become relics that would be infused with supernatural power. I remember visiting the Buddha Memorial Center in Taiwan earlier this year (which isn't a Threveda temple but a Mahayana one but oh well) and there was actually a room that contained what was supposed to be one of Buddha's tooth. People were going in there and praying to it.

Post: #57

Atheism isn't trendy it is just that there is such a proliferation of information now due to the internet that people are beginning to reveal the flawed premises on which all religions are founded and our ranks are starting to swell.

I am personally disgusted by religion because it causes real harm in the real world. We spend millions of dollars every year fighting morons in court who keep trying to stultify our youth by teaching creationism in schools. The religious retard the growth and advancement of science by opposing federal funding on stem cell research. Every. Single. Day. I read in the paper about buses being blown up, policemen being beheaded, women having acid thrown in their face, little girls getting stoned to death by their own families for getting raped - all products of backward religious thinking.

Say whatever you want about Atheists but at least we restrict ourselves to words and argument - you don't see any of us committing violence against those with whom we happen to disagree.

And a little anecdote: I've always had a naturally skeptical mind, even as a young child. I went to a Christian school for elementary and in the second grade I had watched the movie "Gandhi" with my family. When I went to school I asked my teacher if Gandhi went to Heaven or Hell because he wasn't a Christian. She told me that if he didn't accept Jesus before he died that he was in Hell. FUCKING GANDHI! That guy was so fucking Christian he was Hindu.

Post: #58

Atheism became trendy when church abandoned men and started to preach to the female crowd, when warrior-builder men with faith to God the father turned into sissy beta altar boys speculating about the feminine side of divinity, when Vatican closed public whorehouses and Pope's lost their concubines. It was then when all the cool cats left religion and ladies started to associate "sexy" with "freethinker" and atheism became trendy.

Post: #59

I'm agnostic.

Vocal atheists debate me as If I'm semi-religious. Religious people consider me an atheist. Both groups are equally filled by ignorant pompous asses.

Post: #60

A lot of those vocal atheists would be the types to stand on the street corner and preach that the end is near if they were religious.

Post: #61

For a long time, the USA has been the most Christian of Western countries. You still have around 30% or more of the population going to church weekly. Compared to most places in Europe or Australia where it is only 5-10%.

But in the last couple of censuses that "moral majority", the conservative heart of America, has been declining rapidly, and I've seen statistics that show atheism is dramatically on the rise.

There is a real change going on.

Post: #62

(05-23-2013 08:55 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:52 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 07:58 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  I don't think it necessarily became cool and trendy, I think people just started to realize that religion is a crock of shit.

Why is religion a crock of shit?

Which one? Christianity? Do you sincerely believe that a dude packed 2 of every animal into a boat and kept them afloat while the whole world flooded? Religion is out dated man. It just doesn't make sense. I'm all for people following the good parts of it while turning their head to the bad parts, but really? A lot of it just doesn't add up these days.

Scriptures are just metaphors for shit humans can't comprehend or understand. We aren't supposed to know everything.

Religon is a mess but people whom denounce a higher energy that governs all of the universe are suspect to me because it takes is one bong hit to realize this.

Atheism is just another fad and ruse to keep folks occupied and fleeing important. It's blown up via the Internet and women. More women now are atheists and you have a flood of omegas trying to appease them and "connect" with them to get laid.

Humans from as far back in recent times have rejected truly taking into account the real forces that govern our lives. Religon was a con job that took these spirits and energy and consolidated it into a tool of control. It does not mean what they are talking about does not exist it just means what nobody really knows/knew but humans today in modern times refuse to actually go back and try to re-learn what it all really means because doing so destroys evrey phony mantra of control and power we humans have put in place.

Humans are afraid of truly being free. The real energy and spirits frees you but because of this fear humans will never embrace learning what "it all means". Atheism is just another extension of that as it simpy refuses Religom but does nothing to actually dig at what is there. You can't deny something is not there. It humans are to timid and scared to look at what is there.

Post: #63

i think atheism became trendy the exact second relogion became associated with conservatism. its a liberal response to the religious right

Post: #64

It came probably with the rise of individualism when people had the chance to think for themselves without punishment. stockholm syndrom and the hamster is everywhere.

Post: #65

What are treads like these suppose to add to the forum?

Post: #66

So some of you were hipster atheists? You like it when it wasn't cool.

Post: #67

(05-23-2013 10:32 PM)Wutang Wrote:  I also notice a lot of these specific types of atheists seem to "fucking love science" and post Carl Sagan and Neil deGrasse Tyson quotes constantly. I think for them being into atheism is akin to how some people claim to be super into quantum physics, string theory, or whatever: basically another way to show how they are more intelligent then the idiot masses.

This is what my idiot friend does, the future podiatrist who claims to have an IQ of 130. Funny thing is, he spent a year going out with a catholic chick, even went to mass, then bitched to me about it.

The weirdest thing is how militant athiests believe society is too religious. Our society is probably the most secular and materialist it has ever been, I think like other non-mainstream groups, they care more about trolling than actually becoming a majority.

Post: #68

Quote:Scriptures are just metaphors for shit humans can't comprehend or understand. We aren't supposed to know everything.

Religon is a mess but people whom denounce a higher energy that governs all of the universe are suspect to me because it takes is one bong hit to realize this.

Atheism is just another fad and ruse to keep folks occupied and fleeing important. It's blown up via the Internet and women. More women now are atheists and you have a flood of omegas trying to appease them and "connect" with them to get laid.

Humans from as far back in recent times have rejected truly taking into account the real forces that govern our lives. Religon was a con job that took these spirits and energy and consolidated it into a tool of control. It does not mean what they are talking about does not exist it just means what nobody really knows/knew but humans today in modern times refuse to actually go back and try to re-learn what it all really means because doing so destroys evrey phony mantra of control and power we humans have put in place.

Humans are afraid of truly being free. The real energy and spirits frees you but because of this fear humans will never embrace learning what "it all means". Atheism is just another extension of that as it simpy refuses Religom but does nothing to actually dig at what is there. You can't deny something is not there. It humans are to timid and scared to look at what is there.

I think that's our greatest fear, that nothing is there. That God, the soul, and spiritualism are simply and strictly human concepts. I believe fear is the greatest driving force behind religions. Fear of Death? Create God. Fear of evil? Create Hell. Fear of those different? Create scriptures denouncing them. Would it really be so hard to believe that there is no omnipresent force dictating the outcome of all events? The universe has no meaning, only the one we give it.

Post: #69

Ironically, in the light on new discoveries in Quantum Physics, the materialistic model is a house of cards ready to collapse. It doesn't explain non locality or quantum entanglement. Physicists are resorting to speculative philosophies such as string theory and multiverses, which have no more experimental validation than the concept of "God". At present, the materialistic model cannot explain Quantum Physics. There is no underlying ontology. They only have mathematical equations which describe behaviours that they know are true. A good book on the subject is "God is not Dead" by the physicist Amit Goswami.

Post: #70

Many people have a problem with the realization that life is a bitch and then you die, hence the need for religion.

Post: #71

(05-24-2013 08:50 AM)TheBlackNarwhal Wrote:  I think that's our greatest fear, that nothing is there. That God, the soul, and spiritualism are simply and strictly human concepts. I believe fear is the greatest driving force behind religions. Fear of Death? Create God. Fear of evil? Create Hell. Fear of those different? Create scriptures denouncing them. Would it really be so hard to believe that there is no omnipresent force dictating the outcome of all events? The universe has no meaning, only the one we give it.

Very well stated. One of religion's functions is that of an ongoing therapy against anxiety and depression.

Post: #72

(05-24-2013 05:57 AM)Ego Wrote:  What are treads like these suppose to add to the forum?

Unneeded drama.

Post: #73

The religion I was brought up in believes the universe is 9 billion years old. Though I guess that was the luck of being affiliated with a non abrahamic religion like most of the people in the east, who worship gods based on what they need in life.

I believe the universe is my supreme being. Does that make me agnostic?

Post: #74

(05-23-2013 10:26 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:53 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  It's no surprise since most journalists and media executives are not only not religious but aren't even of Christian ancestry.

Please elaborate. Not sure I follow.

Many journalists and media executives may not believe in god but most of them should be of Christian ancestry, especially in North America.

I think he is talking about Jewish journalists and media executives. In the USA, a lot of prominent journalists and media executives are of Jewish ancestry.

Post: #75

I don't buy the idea that fear is the reason religon exists. Fear is not a real emotion it's a manifestation of a bunch of emotional triggers but it is not a single emotion. Religion exploited fear to gain control by using social and power constructs to shame people for not buying their jive.

Fake positions of control work of fear. If humans realized fear was not real every phony power complex we have would crumble overnight.

Humans used to embrace these things like struggle and "fear", and the idea of "religon" is not that old. Prior humans would face these perceived "fears" almost daily. The classic cultures would meditate and have awakenings as a way of balancing their energy and emotions with the earth and the stars. This is an important thing to do as it keeps people balanced and healthy. Our current society is "unhealthy" simply because we has lost this old craft. Every species on earth still does his except for humans, and the fear is just a symptom of how far of the path we have gone.

Fear is fake, It has no reality. Risk is real as risk represents danger and you have to rationalize how much risk is worth whatever the reward your faced with.