My bad Teedub.

They are great players, not even close to the best ever.

Wait, I'm no football expert by any stretch, but how are Messi and Ronaldo "not even close to the best ever"?

(07-26-2018 06:51 PM)911 Wrote:  I don't know about you guys, but club soccer feels boring right after the world cup. Most of the big leagues championships will be settled by March, and group play in the CL is awfully tedious.

#WorldCupWithdrawalSymptom

Champions League is 10 times better than World Cup.

(07-27-2018 05:42 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Wait, I'm no football expert by any stretch, but how are Messi and Ronaldo "not even close to the best ever"?

Rudebwoy is into his 40's (which isn't actually particularly old, but alas - and he might hate me for saying this) and thus seems to have some sort of cut off point where he regards players as being the best ever as being somewhere Maradona or earlier.

To Rudebwoy:

To say they're not the best ever is fine, but to say "not even close" is quite frankly absurd. And goes against the opinion of all the players you're on record as saying are the best ever, for starters! Same as your opinion on Scholes, as I laid out here and here. You literally remind me of my 66 year old step dad who refuses to believe anyone but George Best (or any "non-British" for that matter) is the, for lack of a better word, best. I finally got him to concede Ronaldo was "in the top 20" during the world cup when I forced him to read Ronaldo's wikipedia statistics. He basically admitted he wasn't qualified to judge anymore since he no longer watched football outside of Euros and WCs. You don't have that excuse!

I do accept that people 30-35 and under are probably biased toward Messi/Ronaldo due to the prominence of the Champions League - but their personal statistics over THAT MANY SEASONS is simply "abnormal", to quote Frank Lampard - when talking about CR, for that matter. But Messi's are basically as good, if not better in some regards, though he's only done it for one club.. But so what? So did Giggs, Maldini etc.

Let's just take Ronaldo (you're never going to admit Messi, due to the Maradona thing). Top scorer for Real Madrid, with more goals than games (previously unheard of, absolutely unheard of), became the holder of said record in a ridiculously short amount of time. The holder of dozens and dozens of club and league records... 5 World Player of the Year Awards... sustained success over a decade. 5 league titles in 2 countries, 5 champions league titles in two countries, 1 European Championship. I'll let Ferdinand and Lampard make the case for Ronaldo. I'll let Henry make the case for Messi.

If Zidane, Maradona (yep), Alex Ferguson, Brazil Ronaldo, Henry, Iniesta, Xavi, Neville, Scholes, Rooney, Ronaldinho etc etc say one of these two are the best, I'm going to listen to them over someone on an internet forum, sorry. Now, most who I named say Messi is the best because his play between 09-14 was (I admit) technically better on an aesthetic level (Ronaldo 08-13 was fucking close though - marvellous to watch, remember those free kicks? What the hell happened to his technique?) However, they ALL say Ronaldo is in the debate, and in fact, opinion is starting to shift as the sport Americanises and becomes more stat-based. As Gary Linkeker says in the Ferdinand video I posed... players are in awe of them.

If you can't be bothered reading the quotes or watching the videos I've posted in this very thread then fair enough... but to say they're "not even close" to the best ever is a laughable statement with zero basis in reality. Sorry if I'm coming across as hostile, but seeing someone obviously smart saying something so silly is infuriating. You obviously have an ideological agenda to say that statement, that's literally all I can put it down to.

(07-27-2018 05:46 PM)Rossi Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 06:51 PM)911 Wrote:  I don't know about you guys, but club soccer feels boring right after the world cup. Most of the big leagues championships will be settled by March, and group play in the CL is awfully tedious.

#WorldCupWithdrawalSymptom

Champions League is 10 times better than World Cup.

You're wrong, the World Cup is a very exciting event, and this year it was awesome, Italy even made it to the semifinals!

Oh wait, no, it was ENGLAND.

(07-28-2018 12:37 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(07-27-2018 05:42 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Wait, I'm no football expert by any stretch, but how are Messi and Ronaldo "not even close to the best ever"?

Rudebwoy is into his 40's (which isn't actually particularly old, but alas - and he might hate me for saying this) and thus seems to have some sort of cut off point where he regards players as being the best ever as being somewhere Maradona or earlier.

To Rudebwoy:

To say they're not the best ever is fine, but to say "not even close" is quite frankly absurd. And goes against the opinion of all the players you're on record as saying are the best ever, for starters! Same as your opinion on Scholes, as I laid out here and here. You literally remind me of my 66 year old step dad who refuses to believe anyone but George Best (or any "non-British" for that matter) is the, for lack of a better word, best. I finally got him to concede Ronaldo was "in the top 20" during the world cup when I forced him to read Ronaldo's wikipedia statistics. He basically admitted he wasn't qualified to judge anymore since he no longer watched football outside of Euros and WCs. You don't have that excuse!

I do accept that people 30-35 and under are probably biased toward Messi/Ronaldo due to the prominence of the Champions League - but their personal statistics over THAT MANY SEASONS is simply "abnormal", to quote Frank Lampard - when talking about CR, for that matter. But Messi's are basically as good, if not better in some regards, though he's only done it for one club.. But so what? So did Giggs, Maldini etc.

Let's just take Ronaldo (you're never going to admit Messi, due to the Maradona thing). Top scorer for Real Madrid, with more goals than games (previously unheard of, absolutely unheard of), became the holder of said record in a ridiculously short amount of time. The holder of dozens and dozens of club and league records... 5 World Player of the Year Awards... sustained success over a decade. 5 league titles in 2 countries, 5 champions league titles in two countries, 1 European Championship. I'll let Ferdinand and Lampard make the case for Ronaldo. I'll let Henry make the case for Messi.

If Zidane, Maradona (yep), Alex Ferguson, Brazil Ronaldo, Henry, Iniesta, Xavi, Neville, Scholes, Rooney, Ronaldinho etc etc say one of these two are the best, I'm going to listen to them over someone on an internet forum, sorry. Now, most who I named say Messi is the best because his play between 09-14 was (I admit) technically better on an aesthetic level (Ronaldo 08-13 was fucking close though - marvellous to watch, remember those free kicks? What the hell happened to his technique?) However, they ALL say Ronaldo is in the debate, and in fact, opinion is starting to shift as the sport Americanises and becomes more stat-based. As Gary Linkeker says in the Ferdinand video I posed... players are in awe of them.

If you can't be bothered reading the quotes or watching the videos I've posted in this very thread then fair enough... but to say they're "not even close" to the best ever is a laughable statement with zero basis in reality. Sorry if I'm coming across as hostile, but seeing someone obviously smart saying something so silly is infuriating. You obviously have an ideological agenda to say that statement, that's literally all I can put it down to.

Teedub, sorry mate but you're showing a lack of football big picture knowledge here. Fact is, by historical standards, Ronaldo's goalscoring is pretty decent but in no way exceptional:

Josef Bican: Austria 18, Czechoslovakia 500 (1931–55) – 518 goals
Ferenc Puskás: Spain 159, Hungary 358 (1943–66) – 517 goals
Imre Schlosser: Hungary 411, Austria 6 (1905–28) – 417 goals
Gyula Zsengellér: Hungary 387, Italy 24 (1935–53) – 411 goals
Cristiano Ronaldo: Portugal 3, England 84, Spain 289 (2002–present) – 394 goals
Gunnar Nordahl: Sweden 149, Italy 225 (1937–58) – 374 goals


Top 10 Europe’s all-time top international goalscorers:

Ferenc Puskás (Hungary & Spain) – 84 goals in 89 appearances
Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal) – 81 in 148
Sándor Kocsis (Hungary) – 75 in 68
Miroslav Klose (Germany) – 71 in 137
Gerd Müller (West Germany) – 68 in 62
Robbie Keane (Republic of Ireland) – 68 in 146
Zlatan Ibrahimović (Sweden) – 62 in 116
Imre Schlosser (Hungary) – 59 in 68
David Villa (Spain) – 59 in 98
Jan Koller (Czech Republic) – 55 in 91
Joachim Streich (East Germany) – 55 in 102
Wayne Rooney (England) – 53 in 119

Gerd Müller for instance was far more prolific a goal scorer, if you look at goals per game, in fact exactly TWICE as prolific as CR in international/European competition. Ronaldo is at best one of the top 5 players today, not the all time greatest.

https://www.sportshistori.com/2018/05/to...urope.html

^ None of those players (bar Puskas and Muller, and they still haven't done as much so consistently) have achieved what Ronaldo has achieved, nor — and most importantly — do they get the plaudits he gets from fellow current and former professionals. The players you listed in the first list... you didn't place it next to their amount of appearances. Ronaldo's record at Real Madrid is insanely, insanely good. Di Stefano was also very, very good appearances to goals wise, but not for such a long amount of time.

Alas, I was responding to rudebwoy's comment that he and Messi are "not even close" to being in the conversation of 'best ever', which I stand by is a laughable statement to make. If you want to make a case for David Villa or Miroslav Klose (look at their international team mates compared to CR) being better than Messi and Ronaldo, I'd love to hear it. Lastly, some of those players you listed regarding goalscorers were playing a century ago, there's absolutely no comparison to the modern game — games back then ended with numbers like 10-2 fairly regularly. But if you want to make a case for Jimmy McFiddlesticks of Grimsby FC 1876-1893 being a better athlete or footballer than Ronaldo, I'm all ears! There might be boxer from 1790 who could beat Floyd Mayweather, but it's irrelevant because these people are from so long ago it's impossible to compare. The game today (football) is faster with more games per season than eras past, and for me that makes up for any deficiencies in pitches and sports science for players in the 70s or whatever. Frank Lampard has made this case more eloquently than me, it's on youtube if you want to look for it.

Lastly, Ronaldo's goalscoring being "pretty decent" — when placed in the context laid out above — is almost as funny as rudebwoy's "not even close" statement. Is there something in the water in Canada? Snark aside, statistically Ronaldo and Muller seem similar, but Muller wasn't a genetic freak like Ronaldo. Could he do stuff like this?

(07-28-2018 01:21 AM)911 Wrote:  Ronaldo is at best one of the top 5 players today, not the all time greatest.

On the 28th of July 2018 you're right, over the course of his entire career — he's in the conversation of best ever, fact. As mentioned by all the players I listed, who know more about football than either of us.

(07-28-2018 01:01 AM)911 Wrote:  

(07-27-2018 05:46 PM)Rossi Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 06:51 PM)911 Wrote:  I don't know about you guys, but club soccer feels boring right after the world cup. Most of the big leagues championships will be settled by March, and group play in the CL is awfully tedious.

#WorldCupWithdrawalSymptom

Champions League is 10 times better than World Cup.

You're wrong, the World Cup is a very exciting event, and this year it was awesome, Italy even made it to the semifinals!

Oh wait, no, it was ENGLAND.

If we didn't make it to World Cup until 3018, England won't ever win 4 World Cup to catch up with us, don't worry about that

Teedub - Please don't insult me or the country I live in.

I am easily double your age, I was born in the 60s. So do the math, I may look 39 but I am not.

When did you start watching football, 10 years ago! I remember watching the 78 World Cup.

The conversation about who the greatest player of all time, has always been between Pele and Maradona. If you don't know about them and you love football, I strongly suggest you research what they have done for the sport.

The opinion of Henry means as much to me, as the opinion of your step-dad. However, your step-dad was right what he said about George Best. He is easily one of the best players to have played the game.

Ronaldo is a great player, who has won for different teams and country.

Messi was so poor in this World Cup, I almost felt bad for him. I am still laughing at his performance.

Rudebwoy - I didn't insult you, I insulted your opinion because I stand by that saying they're "nowhere close" in the best ever conversation is ridiculous — especially when you yourself continually praise Ronaldo. And the comment about Canada was a lighthearted quip since both you and 911 live there.

I was born mid eighties, so no I didn't start watching football ten years ago.

To suggest the best ever conversation begins and ends with two players, the latter of whom finished playing decades ago — and thus ignoring everyone since — is incredibly reductive. I've done my research, and so have many others within the game who have come to similar conclusions to me regarding the infamous duo I'm championing the causes of... particularly the diminutive one. Yeah he had a rubbish world cup.

The opinion of Henry (or any of the other players I listed) holds much more weight than mine, yours, or my step dad's. He's been a top level professional who has played against Ronaldo and with Messi. Best was a top, top players yeah, shame he essentially committed suicide via alcohol.

All that said, I dislike debating on the internet because you never get anyone to change their minds about anything. Football, politics, art, music, video games, absolutely nothing. You can change minds in real life, but it’s incredibly difficult even if you post 1000 links providing evidence of your arguments.

I, over the course of this and the two world cup threads, have posted direct quotes and videos of Lampard, Ferdinand, Ferguson, Lineker, Brazilian Ronaldo, Henry, Iniesta, Xavi, Neville, Scholes, Rooney, Zidane, Ronaldinho, and more discussing the 'best ever' thing, yet people can't be bothered to watch, let alone read. One could post a video of God himself saying "XYZ" and people would think TL/DR. I've also laid out detailed reasoning in the posts above regarding Muller — a goal poacher extraordinaire (like current CR), but CR 08-13 was so much more than that, and it's obvious - so I simply assume bad faith arguments are coming from the other side.

Which brings me to my final point, if people are never going to change anybody’s mind about any topic, ever, what am I/we even doing here in the first place? Just going round and round in circles repeating ourselves and only reaffirming our own opinions essentially and getting agreement from the same people who always agree, and disagreement from the same people who always disagree — with nobody changing their opinion, ever. Seems like an almighty time sink. Think it’s time for a break (this isn't a reflection on you, or this specific - and ultimately trivial - discussion... I've been disillusioned with the direction of the forum for a while).

Inter got Naiggolan already and they want Vidal too from Bayern. If they get both of them, I think there will be a big chaos in their dressing room in about 2 months or so. They're both too aggressive.

Another reason why Messi and Ronaldo should be considered the best ever is because competition has gotten more fierce. Players are more athletic, bigger, and faster than they used to be. It is hard to dominate anymore because the gap between best and worst is closing in. It's like when people say Kareem Abdul Jabbar is the greatest basketball player of all time. Yea, did you see who he was competing against? Lol. There was like 10 teams in that era.

Tennis is another example. John Mcenroe or Borg or Jimmy Connors would get absolutely wrecked by any of the Big 4 (shit, probably any of the top 20 seeds for that matter). The game has gotten far more technical.

^Did you ever see Pele or Maradona play?

Both of them received much harder tackles than the current players of today.

Both of them got kicked literally out of World Cups. Pele in 62, 66. Maradona in 82.

No one is saying Kareem is the greatest, they are saying Jordan is. How long ago did he stop playing!

There were 23 teams in 1980, not 10.

Borg and McEnroe played with wooden racquets, Connors played with a aluminum racquet. Different era and different equipment, so not a very good comparison.

Maradona won titles with nothing teams. He pretty much put them on his back and led them to victory.

Just like Jordan, I am sure you know what he did for the Bulls.

Great players do great things, against the odds.

Let us agree to disagree.

Eusebio is one of the all time greats (possibly top 5, certainly top 10 ever) with great stats and crazy highlights reels, played in the 60s and early 70s on top level... Yet in Portugal, home country of both, nobody (might be some exceptions here and there) disputes that Ronaldo is the best Portuguese player ever. Even the late Eusebio loved him.

I think this say something about Ronaldo's greatness.

And also Don Alfredo opinion on Eusebio:

Quote:Shortly after Eusébio's death, Alfredo Di Stéfano stated: "For me Eusébio will always be the best player of all time"

Rudebwoy I see your point but I'm still gonna have to go with Messi and Ronnie as the two greats. I actually think ability has improved drastically across ALL sports. I think you're being a little too nostalgic with Pele and Maradona, I don't know I could be wrong. We're byproducts of different eras.

The only thing I hate about Ronnie is him pulling up his shorts before he takes a free kick. That's some gay shit.

(07-28-2018 02:45 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Eusebio is one of the all time greats (possibly top 5, certainly top 10 ever) with great stats and crazy highlights reels, played in the 60s and early 70s on top level... Yet in Portugal, home country of both, nobody (might be some exceptions here and there) disputes that Ronaldo is the best Portuguese player ever. Even the late Eusebio loved him.

I think this say something about Ronaldo's greatness.

And also Don Alfredo opinion on Eusebio:

Quote:Shortly after Eusébio's death, Alfredo Di Stéfano stated: "For me Eusébio will always be the best player of all time"

Rocha, no arguments there.

So is the best player to play for Argentina? Maradona, no brainer.

(07-28-2018 03:38 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

(07-28-2018 02:45 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Eusebio is one of the all time greats (possibly top 5, certainly top 10 ever) with great stats and crazy highlights reels, played in the 60s and early 70s on top level... Yet in Portugal, home country of both, nobody (might be some exceptions here and there) disputes that Ronaldo is the best Portuguese player ever. Even the late Eusebio loved him.

I think this say something about Ronaldo's greatness.

And also Don Alfredo opinion on Eusebio:

Quote:Shortly after Eusébio's death, Alfredo Di Stéfano stated: "For me Eusébio will always be the best player of all time"

Rocha, no arguments there.

So is the best player to play for Argentina? Maradona, no brainer.

Yes, Maradona the best player of the Argentinian national team. But very disputable regarding if he is the best Argentinian ever, along with Messi and Di Stefano.

(07-28-2018 11:56 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Another reason why Messi and Ronaldo should be considered the best ever is because competition has gotten more fierce. Players are more athletic, bigger, and faster than they used to be. It is hard to dominate anymore because the gap between best and worst is closing in. It's like when people say Kareem Abdul Jabbar is the greatest basketball player of all time. Yea, did you see who he was competing against? Lol. There was like 10 teams in that era.

Tennis is another example. John Mcenroe or Borg or Jimmy Connors would get absolutely wrecked by any of the Big 4 (shit, probably any of the top 20 seeds for that matter). The game has gotten far more technical.

Kareem would still dominate today. What he had was a combination of physicality (height) with great technique, and superb fundamentals, which even big stars lack today. His skyhook for example was unstoppable. He was coached by the likes of John Wooden, the best masters of the game.

In tennis, guys like McEnroe were artists with a combination of great technique and innate skills. He would have done well today.

Back to Ronaldo, you look at that youtube video of his 10 greatest goals, and most of them look rather pedestrian for an alltime highlight reel. There are 2 or 3 exceptional goals there, but at no point in that video was I in great awe. Dead ball fouls? Yawn. You watch instead a Cruyff highlight reel, and you want to stop, rewind, stop, rewind, marveling at the sheer genius behind his touches and vision. Have you ever seen a more impressive and bewildering penalty kick than the one in this video below? right up there with Panenka's.





You have an incredible sense of style on display here, someonee who's taken over the game and engraved his imprimatur into the consciousness of every fan and lover of the game. Someone like him makes Ronaldo look like a hack.

@911 - I didn't want to get into all of that, you summed it up perfectly as always.

Cryuff was my "hero" growing up a kid, I rated him second to Pele until Maradona came on the scene.

In terms of highlights, take a look at Maradona playing for Napoli videos. I know I sound like a fanboy, but the dude was a genius who created Masterpiece's. He was the first guy I saw do the Rabina move.

Ronaldhino is also a genius, I think he is underrated as a player.
I always watch a few of his highlight reels on YouTube.
His first goal for Barca in his first game never gets old.
I always get a chuckle out of the goal he scored against England in the 2002 World Cup, pure class.

McEnroe didn't even have a power game, it was all skill. Yet, he was able to win majors. I was more a Borg fan.

I have said enough on Messi.

Hats off to Ronaldo, leaving Madrid and taking on another challenge.

My money is on him lifting the CL trophy for Juve.

A lot of rumors say in Italia that Inter is very close getting Modric from Real Madrid. Would be fantastic if it happens.

Higuain and Caldara join AcMilan while Bonucci goes back to Juve.
Juve wants a ready team to fully leverage CR7 to win that big ears cup huh?
Happy to see that AcMilan is rebuilding!

(08-01-2018 02:53 PM)kuqezi Wrote:  Higuain and Caldara join AcMilan while Bonucci goes back to Juve.
Juve wants a ready team to fully leverage CR7 to win that big ears cup huh?
Happy to see that AcMilan is rebuilding!

Juve needed to offload Higuain due to his wages/amortized cost. Milan probably wouldn't have accepted without getting Caldara while Bonucci wanted to return to Juve.

But yes, Juve is going all out to win the Champions League.

(08-01-2018 02:55 PM)Labienus Wrote:  

(08-01-2018 02:53 PM)kuqezi Wrote:  Higuain and Caldara join AcMilan while Bonucci goes back to Juve.
Juve wants a ready team to fully leverage CR7 to win that big ears cup huh?
Happy to see that AcMilan is rebuilding!

Juve needed to offload Higuain due to his wages/amortized cost. Milan probably wouldn't have accepted without getting Caldara while Bonucci wanted to return to Juve.

But yes, Juve is going all out to win the Champions League.

Agreed...also if you look at the costs and formulas used it's a financial transaction too for both of them...ACM gets rid of a heavy contract and "loans" Higuain with the option to buy/sign him. Juve gets rid of Higuain since he can't be benched while Caldara was a genius find from Leonardo (the new director at ACM).
I am an ACM fan and happy to see this.

(08-01-2018 03:00 PM)kuqezi Wrote:  

(08-01-2018 02:55 PM)Labienus Wrote:  

(08-01-2018 02:53 PM)kuqezi Wrote:  Higuain and Caldara join AcMilan while Bonucci goes back to Juve.
Juve wants a ready team to fully leverage CR7 to win that big ears cup huh?
Happy to see that AcMilan is rebuilding!

Juve needed to offload Higuain due to his wages/amortized cost. Milan probably wouldn't have accepted without getting Caldara while Bonucci wanted to return to Juve.

But yes, Juve is going all out to win the Champions League.

Agreed...also if you look at the costs and formulas used it's a financial transaction too for both of them...ACM gets rid of a heavy contract and "loans" Higuain with the option to buy/sign him. Juve gets rid of Higuain since he can't be benched while Caldara was a genius find from Leonardo (the new director at ACM).
I am an ACM fan and happy to see this.

I follow Juve and I am somewhat pleased. Higuain needed to go and they wouldn't keep both Caldara and Rugani. Now Rugani will most likely stay and Bonucci will definitely be useful in the CL due to his passing.

Higuain will score goals but he is rapidly declining since about Christmas. He is in bad shape for a high level athlete and eats too much. It's good that you have Cutrone though, he will be needed.

Serie A will be quite competitive this season, which is good. Inter and Roma look strong and this trade should help Milan finish in the top 4.

I agree with you @Teedub in that Ronaldo of 08-13 >>> 14-17. Adapting is smart but it doesn't mean this is his peak, which has been and gone. It's more to do with short-term thinking, branding, and getting rid of the UCL Curse that Juve has. Even if Ronaldo wasn't on the bench, maybe his UCL luck would cause every bounce to go Juve's way or the referees and linesmen to always favor Juve as they have done with Real Madrid during the time he was there. If I were a Juve fan I would be glad to get rid of Higuain but Caldara is a loss. Player with huge potential and that's why Milan wouldn't have gone for the deal without him.

As others have said Juventus is clearly going all out for the UCL. But we all know what that competition is like: you need so much luck at multiple stages, not forgetting the draws for groups and each round, you need key decisions of linesmen and referees to go your way... it's a cup competition and not always the best team wins. Last year without Michael Oliver would Juventus have gone all the way and not even need to buy Ronaldo now? Who knows. By strength of squad Juventus looks extremely strong, not just because of 2018 Ronaldo the poacher at the front. Just look at everything else, including the bench. They should win it, in theory. But like I said, this is the UCL. The RM treble was a freak which half resulted from a strong squad feeding Ronaldo, but also half from extremely favorable, match winning pieces of luck. Again, what if Michael Oliver had been a different referee last year? Or the other match/stage changing decisions RM got their way? Juventus will be lucky to win it once, luck is required in the CL not just a luxury if you have it.