Post: #351

(04-30-2013 09:56 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  Each of us must define our own sense of morality.

I agree with everything you are saying. You are a man of integrity and morals. I respect that alot.

Most guys will disagree. Most guys will say its okay to lie, cheat, and steal.

On this forum, we actually take pride in being a Machievellian psychopath.

I am no angel. I lie, cheat, and steal occasionally.

But, I respect people like you.

People who stand up for common decency and morality.

Don't let us corrupt you.

Without people like you, the world would be a much darker place.

Losing your sense of morality and ethics is not cool to me. I have seen what happens to men when they lose their conscience, its not cool.

Post: #352

Haven't heard anyone respond to my notion of someones karma being visible on his face and in his body movements. Seems people prefer to talk about morals and ethics, and doing onto others and if they deserve it and what not.

So - it seems implausible to people then that having a habit of integrity would lead to broadcasting congruent signals that lead to faster and more trust?

Or is that simply not needed or wanted for the strategies used, and therefore not an issue worth a moments thought?

Post: #353

(05-01-2013 12:54 PM)xsplat Wrote:  Haven't heard anyone respond to my notion of someones karma being visible on his face and in his body movements. Seems people prefer to talk about morals and ethics, and doing onto others and if they deserve it and what not.

So - it seems implausible to people then that having a habit of integrity would lead to broadcasting congruent signals that lead to faster and more trust?

Or is that simply not needed or wanted for the strategies used, and therefore not an issue worth a moments thought?

You mean be on to something here. If micro expressions are universally understood and you unconsciously Broadcast those "trustworthy" signals you may very well be getting a leg up over the competition.

I put "trustworthy" in quotes because I don't think that is the signal that will be giving you a leg up with the majority of women

Post: #354

I am not sure what you mean. Body language is just as important as dressing sharp and being in shape.

If I walk up to you and give you a genuine smile it's not like people can tell what you are thinking. You just give the "correct answers". If a girl asks you something you just respond "correctly".

If anything the less and less interested you become the better your game is.

(05-01-2013 12:54 PM)xsplat Wrote:  Haven't heard anyone respond to my notion of someones karma being visible on his face and in his body movements. Seems people prefer to talk about morals and ethics, and doing onto others and if they deserve it and what not.

So - it seems implausible to people then that having a habit of integrity would lead to broadcasting congruent signals that lead to faster and more trust?

Or is that simply not needed or wanted for the strategies used, and therefore not an issue worth a moments thought?

Post: #355

(05-01-2013 01:14 PM)cheerfulwish Wrote:  I put "trustworthy" in quotes because I don't think that is the signal that will be giving you a leg up with the majority of women

Yes, assuming that the signals are sub-consciously broadcast and received, there is the question of what value they can provide. I think for some strategies they would not provide much value. It depends what you want. If you want intimacy then certainly broadcasting congruency and trustworthyness will aid you. We can't control certain facial muscles voluntarily, and so it is with the attitudes expressed in our body language. The expressions are there, and the only way we can affect them is on a deeper level than through willpower of acting. It's about an integrity of being - who we are. Having a congruent ego - not just a momentary fleeting reaction to circumstance.

I know that some people have swallowed a religious manosphere notion that there is a polarity between emotionally open and edgy, and that girls only get wet for edgy. I see that that there are different styles, and that the styles can work for different ends. You can get a girl horny using affect and emotional bonding - in fact that will greatly help a girl to orgasm. It's not rocket science. It's just that some guys have a VERY strong aversion to these concepts, as it would undermine their sense of self worth, because it involves an entirely different self conception to even consider such strategies.


I know that sounds harsh, but some people would need to confront the feeling that they don't feel love and that no one loves them and that they don't value trust in their relationships, and rather than feel that pain it's easier just to dismiss the entire endeavor and anyone who talks about it.

Genuine narcissists for instance are known to be incapable of both love and introspection on that fact. Pointing it out can send them into a rage. They also tend to have short lived relationships as they get dumped after people see through their masks.

So is the solution better masks? A greater volume of people to temporarily dupe? Can be. Depends what you want.

I'm just tired of hearing narcisist game talked about as if it's the only and best game there is. And the denial of better games that lead to far, far better results.

Post: #356

Thanks Gio. Personally, I have been treated very well by women, for the most part. Even my friends around me haven't had really any bad experiences. Maybe it is the people I surround myself with, I don't know. One thing I know for sure, is that I stay away from crazy women. You can't get involved with crazy women and then complain about some crazy shit they do.

BUT I would like to clarify something. Not being prejudice and being stupid are two very different things. I am not advocating you allow a woman to walk all over you or you don't look for warning signs. My approach to people in general is that you are innocence until you start showing signs of your true nature. Once a woman, starts showing a certain behavior, it is my choice to either stick around and deal with the consequences or walk. I guess it just comes down to the old adage: of treating people like you yourself would want to be treated. On the same token, I don't take shit from women or allow them to disrespect me. I make it clear that if they want to be treated like a reasonable human being I will expect them to act like one.

A lot of American girls are messed up though. The pressure they are under in this country messes them up mentally.

Post: #357

(05-01-2013 12:54 PM)xsplat Wrote:  Haven't heard anyone respond to my notion of someones karma being visible on his face and in his body movements. Seems people prefer to talk about morals and ethics, and doing onto others and if they deserve it and what not.

So - it seems implausible to people then that having a habit of integrity would lead to broadcasting congruent signals that lead to faster and more trust?

Or is that simply not needed or wanted for the strategies used, and therefore not an issue worth a moments thought?

I agree with this. You attract what you are. Sure, you could fake people out but people can sense fakers on an intuitive level. I know a lot of really great women all over the world and I attribute this to the fact of how I treat people. I am a big believer in creating win-win situations in ALL aspects of my life.

Post: #358

(05-01-2013 12:54 PM)xsplat Wrote:  karma being visible on his face and in his body movements.

Be careful with this.

There are some master con-men and con-women out there.

People can fool you. You think you can spot them but there will always been some that slip thru the cracks. The amateurs are easy to spot, the pros can be impossible to spot. They practice for decades.

Master con-men study this stuff. They learn to control their body language and expressions. Some are so good that they can even pass a lie detector test. They commit evil but their heart rate remains normal and calm.

Some people are masters of disguise. Be careful.

Do not trust people until you really, really, know then and have alot of experience with them.

Don't give trust blindly. Make people earn your trust!

People will fool you.

Post: #359

(05-01-2013 02:20 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(05-01-2013 12:54 PM)xsplat Wrote:  karma being visible on his face and in his body movements.

Be careful with this.

There are some master con-men and con-women out there.

People can fool you. You think you can spot them but there will always been some that slip thru the cracks. The amateurs are easy to spot, the pros can be impossible to spot. They practice for decades.

Master con-men study this stuff. They learn to control their body language and expressions. Some are so good that they can even pass a lie detector test. They commit evil but their heart rate remains normal and calm.

Some people are masters of disguise. Be careful.

Do not trust people until you really, really, know then and have alot of experience with them.

Don't give trust blindly. Make people earn your trust!

People will fool you.

I believe that, and have seen it. It took quite an embarassingly long while to see through the masks. But most of us are not such actors. It's easier to become internally congruent than to become a master method actor who can embody different characters down to minute details convincingly and for the long term. For most of us internal congruency is by far the better strategic choice. IF you want intimacy. And of course many really don't want that, and wouldn't know what to do with it if they got it.

I'm going to take this a step further. It's not only our visible body language and micro expressions that are affected by our attitudes and actions, it's our sexual habits. Our entire being is created from what we think and do. The habits we create are a bit more dangerous than people seem to realize. It's not a non-challant affair. We are constantly creating our future selves.

Post: #360

This true, at some point in your life you have to decide whether you are living it for the exceptions or the norm, for the 95% or the 5%. I have decided to live my life for the 95%. Sure, I may get fucked over some times but I don't believe that is worth me giving up living a relatively normal life most of the time.

Post: #361

(05-01-2013 01:26 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I'm just tired of hearing narcisist game talked about as if it's the only and best game there is. And the denial of better games that lead to far, far better results.

What is better game? How do you measure the quality of your results?
Dark triad game seems to work pretty damn well when you have it down. I'm not denying that you can get results using emotionally open game, but how do you know those results are better. Maybe they're better for you, but not necessarily better for most men.

(05-01-2013 02:29 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  This true, at some point in your life you have to decide whether you are living it for the exceptions or the norm, for the 95% or the 5%. I have decided to live my life for the 95%. Sure, I may get fucked over some times but I don't believe that is worth me giving up living a relatively normal life most of the time.

I don't quite understand this. I think I aim my game at 95%, or more like the 99%. I aim my game at the 99% of women who respond well to being treated poorly, who deserve to be deceived and who cannot offer any meaningful level of emotional intimacy.

Post: #362

(05-01-2013 02:43 PM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

(05-01-2013 01:26 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I'm just tired of hearing narcisist game talked about as if it's the only and best game there is. And the denial of better games that lead to far, far better results.

What is better game? How do you measure the quality of your results?
Dark triad game seems to work pretty damn well when you have it down. I'm not denying that you can get results using emotionally open game, but how do you know those results are better. Maybe they're better for you, but not necessarily better for most men.

"I think for some strategies they would not provide much value. It depends what you want. If you want intimacy then certainly broadcasting congruency and trustworthyness will aid you."

If you prefer "deep conversion" and owning a womans body, mind, and soul in a paternal fashion, and feeling deserving of your dominion over her, then internal and external congruence is the better strategy. Not that you have to be without guile or machiavelian street smarts of course. Just that you have to be. Be something. Be something and express that very real something. Honestly.

This is different than just feeding the girl the dream in order to get what you want from her. It's an entirely different set up, that can yield entirely different results.

If the results you want are pump and dumps, then carry on. This strategy might just get in your way.

Post: #363

Exactly, the gaming strategies for constructive relationships with women are different than a notch/sex based strategy. The objective is different so the kind of women you have to seek are different. It's like renting an apartment vs buying a house. One is a long-term commitment that requires a far greater investment.

Post: #364

(05-01-2013 02:43 PM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  I aim my game at the 99% of women who ... deserve to be deceived and who cannot offer any meaningful level of emotional intimacy.

Although I read similar attitudes regularly, it's still painful to read.

I can feel meaningful connection to a cat. It's a rare woman who can't rise to that level.

For me it's not about reciprocity of trustworthyness. I'm not trustworthy because the woman deserves it. I'm honest because I deserve it. And because there are side benefits, in how people react to me. Regardless of if the girl is a habitual lier or not, she'll still respond better if she trusts you more.

And trust doesn't mean of course that you have to do what she wants, or that you have to explain yourself to her. You can still have boundaries, do what you want, and at times be deliberately opaque. You can refuse to give any accounting of where you go and refuse to accept monogamy, all while feeling like your insides and outsides match up.

I like that feeling - that my insides and outsides match up. I feel a strength from that. That fits in nicely with the attitude of making sure all the puzzle pieces of my mental map fit together well into one congruent piece. I get a feeling from that habit, and that feeling comes out in my actions, and I'm certain that both the feeling and the actions have positive benefits.

Basically I'm glad that I took after my Dad that way. Congruence isn't just a choice or a lifestyle, it's a way of being. A way that feels good and that once you have you want to keep. And it's also a method that can be used to have power over other people.

Post: #365

(05-01-2013 02:27 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I believe that, and have seen it. It took quite an embarassingly long while to see through the masks. But most of us are not such actors. It's easier to become internally congruent than to become a master method actor who can embody different characters down to minute details convincingly and for the long term. For most of us internal congruency is by far the better strategic choice. IF you want intimacy. And of course many really don't want that, and wouldn't know what to do with it if they got it.

I'm going to take this a step further. It's not only our visible body language and micro expressions that are affected by our attitudes and actions, it's our sexual habits. Our entire being is created from what we think and do. The habits we create are a bit more dangerous than people seem to realize. It's not a non-challant affair. We are constantly creating our future selves.

Great fucking post!

You're right.

"It's easier to become internally congruent than to become a master method actor"

"internal congruency is by far the better strategic choice"

I agree.

My only point was that people can fool you and present a false vibe/mask that seems authentic. Master method actors as you said. Don't trust people blindly.

(05-01-2013 02:27 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I'm going to take this a step further. It's not only our visible body language and micro expressions that are affected by our attitudes and actions, it's our sexual habits. Our entire being is created from what we think and do. The habits we create are a bit more dangerous than people seem to realize. It's not a non-challant affair. We are constantly creating our future selves.

Wow!

+1

Post: #366

I'm not sure how common impressive male role models are. My dad is a genuine guy and you feel that in his presence and it has an effect on you. His genuineness gave him an authentic authority. His entire side of the family radiates genuiness and the natural class that comes from that.

Have other guys met people that after spending much time with them you want to be like them?

I've had several mentors in my life. They were all very genuine and authentic.

They had a presence about them that they could not have had any other way.

When you associate yourself with those type of people, you really don't want to back to your old sneaky teenagerish ways. You want to invest yourself with the authority to be who you are honestly, and to relate to the world in a genuine way.

Genuine authentic honest paternal love is irresistable.

Post: #367

Genuine, warm and authentic people often magnetize a following and are socially lauded. My Grandparents for instance were always being voted as the head of their several thousands member community club, and my mentors were often mentors of many others.

Genuine authentic honest paternal love is irresistable. Cultivating this is a strategy not just for social success, but also to increase moment to moment satisfaction. It feels good to be warm and genuine, life is better that way, and life treats you better that way. Your satisfactions become more satisfying.

At the extreme flipside of the advantages to being warm and genuine are the disadvantages of being cold and duplicitous. From that we hear common complaints. People complain of no longer finding satisfaction and feeling thin inside - feeling a lack of meaning and connection and purpose, with no real warmth or satisfaction to be found inside or outside, and the world a dead grey meaningless dream.

Have you ever felt like a better person when in the company of certain people? Are there people in your past that made you a better person just for having known them? If so, then wouldn't it follow that we could become such a person, and through our frame inspire better behaviour out of our company? Integrity is a frame that demands a high price to be able to hold strongly. The price is integrity. You can be at your most influential when you embody that frame with your whole life. Examine your mentors and tell me if you agree.

And I'd also be curious to know if there are people who do not have any mentors who are warm and authentic.

Post: #368

My favorite part here

(05-01-2013 02:27 PM)xsplat Wrote:  Our entire being is created from what we think and do. The habits we create are a bit more dangerous than people seem to realize. It's not a non-challant affair. We are constantly creating our future selves.

Post: #369

(05-01-2013 03:08 PM)xsplat Wrote:  Although I read similar attitudes regularly, it's still painful to read.

I can feel meaningful connection to a cat. It's a rare woman who can't rise to that level.

I can't. Trying to force the intimacy isn't a good solution for me, I'd rather get what value I can from women whom I can't feel intimacy with. It's a rare woman who can rise to the level that I need for intimacy.

I'm Machiavellian because it makes me feel better. I genuinely feel good when I deceive a deceitful person. I feel guilt if I hurt an innocent person, so I avoid doing so, but the girls who are the focus of SA game are anything but innocent.

Being honest does not make me feel better. I am genuinely Machiavellian. This isn't something I learned from game, I have always been like this.

Post: #370

Exactly, I am not the way I am not to get women but because I want to feel good about myself without any women! When you no longer need a notch or a woman to validate you it's a powerful feeling. Regardless of how any woman chose to act, I refuse to lower myself to their level. A woman or man may very well cheat me out of everything I own but they will never take my pride, dignity, and integrity. Those are mine to lose.

This stuff should be on it's own thread xsplat

Post: #371

(05-01-2013 05:15 PM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

(05-01-2013 03:08 PM)xsplat Wrote:  Although I read similar attitudes regularly, it's still painful to read.

I can feel meaningful connection to a cat. It's a rare woman who can't rise to that level.

I can't. Trying to force the intimacy isn't a good solution for me, I'd rather get what value I can from women whom I can't feel intimacy with. It's a rare woman who can rise to the level that I need for intimacy.

I'm Machiavellian because it makes me feel better. I genuinely feel good when I deceive a deceitful person. I feel guilt if I hurt an innocent person, so I avoid doing so, but the girls who are the focus of SA game are anything but innocent.

Being honest does not make me feel better. I am genuinely Machiavellian. This isn't something I learned from game, I have always been like this.

I hear you. It is what it is.

I have a background of being deeply involved in Buddhist communities in my late teens through to my mid thirties. We spent a lot of time cultivating vagal tone. It was our communal assumption that the human condition was plastic, and that a constant glowing inner fire of compassion could be grown from nothing but a seed of potential.

I no longer hold to that assumption. I put these ideas here for those who would gravitate towards them - I don't believe they are a one size fits all shoe. I just believe that the shoe would fit well many men in our community who are not seeing any other options presented. My feeling is that the lack of options can be harmful for some men, especially those who aren't characterized as having dark triad traits.

Post: #372

Xsplat on Fire , + 1 from me as soon as I get to a real computer.

We need to talk Xsplat , I have a lot of questions , número uno

How do you keep believing in your process ?

Much respect for you player , I suggest start another thread on Morality etc

Post: #373

(05-01-2013 06:53 PM)Lothario Wrote:  How do you keep believing in your process ?

I don't really try to keep believing anything, and the beliefs have changed over time. But many have stayed the same, I assume because of positive re-inforcement and examining what happens around me. I'm fond of some body centered meditations that are also in a way in line with what I was talking about, especially the inner smile, and also I suppose a feeling of groundedness, and am intellectually drawn to see a big cohesive picture, so that fits in with preferring a stable ego or self between circumstances - which I find is easier to have if you are honest inside and out. So there are practices and habits that I cultivate that do tend to re-enforce the beliefs, but I don't feel that I believe because believing something is important. The truth is important, which means that the facts and experiences have to fit together into a cohesive big picture.

Also, I don't really believe in morals. I believe in strategies, and that strategies are either about benefitting your self or your in-group. I don't believe that good and bad exist platonically, as ideals outside of strategy. That's a little harsh and nihilistic for some, but it seems possible to think that way while still being warm and feeling a meaningful connection between people. I've explained the ideas in terms of strategy because that's how I really think; I wasn't just trying to be diplomatic. It's also how the notion of Buddhist karma is often taught - it's not that actions are good or bad, it's just that the results can affect people postively or negatively. Subtle difference maybe, and the shortcut of accepting our first gut emotional reaction of something being either good or bad tends to work well enough most of the time anyway. But going with the gut isn't as useful as a more sophisticated understanding of what people do and why and what happens to them after that, which is not born from the gut. Also, believing in absolute morals allows other people to manipulate us more easily.

My position is not moralistic, but is about improving quality of life. Despite the dark triad test scores posted on this site, I still believe that most people get increased life satisfaction out of increasing vagal tone and feeling intimacy and social connection, and conversely that most people could experience a gradual decline in life satisfaction by overly decreasing affect and empathy. It's just that maintaining boundaries while keeping high affect is trickier than maintaining boundaries with low affect. My feeling is that people muddle ideas together, and assume that having strong boundaries and not getting fucked over and taking what you want from the world necessitates low affect. This strategy can in many ways be self defeating, as our affect is strongly tied in with our very ability to experience pleasure.

Post: #374

(05-01-2013 05:32 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  What does integrity mean? To me, it's just another word for honesty. All these women (on SA) are, are the Americanized version of a prostitute. They are not cheating anyone. They have integrity because they are being honest about what they are offering and what they expect in return.

Now, if you feel that a prostitute has no integrity by virtue of her profession then that's a moral issue. To me, a woman that tells me she wants $200 for sex or $2000/month for a relationship has integrity - she is being honest. One that goes out with me to get free drinks and food, knowing she has no interest in me whatsoever, has no integrity - because she is being dishonest.

I agree with the other things you say. Avoid crazy women, in general I treat women well and they do they same .

However I think you are waaaay off in how you are imagining girls using SA. Someone wanting to get as much out of you as possible while doing as little as possible, all while pretending to like you is the precise opposite of honesty and integrity.

If your an attractive guy, have game, and aren't a piss broke bum, then use the site. You'll piss off the real pros, but you aren't wasting the other girls time because they will enjoy it.

Post: #375

xplat while your philosophy is appealing, it just wont get people laid here in the U.S. in fact the average guy (beta) pretty much tries to act like youre describing, but it gets him nowhere.
sure be a good person with integrity, its a commendable thing but i dont see the connection with getting laid, at least in the western world. girls here want "fun" and gina tingles they dont give a shit about our integrity.