Post: #126

(12-27-2012 07:12 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  No shit the Swiss has guns. They shoot holes in all their cheese.


Brooom Boom. Thanks folks, I'll be here all night.

I do believe they have a drunk thread for posts like this.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #127

(12-27-2012 04:58 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  Europeans love to hate on America due to jealousy. They never complain about their own country cause it's already over for them. No guns, freedom of speech, outrageous taxes, cameras everywhere, having to sitpee cause their g/f's tell them to.

"If we can't have it, neither should Americans".

I've noticed some European guys have a passive aggressive attitude on here. They'll try to weasel a smart comment in and back up when they get called out. They got that "holier than thou" attitude.

Post: #128

(12-27-2012 05:07 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  I'm still laughing at the dude who complained there was no freedom because he couldn't bully some shorter guy and take his women.

Even our short guys will fuck you up.

I'm the dude you're referring to. I am American, and the guys who had the table I was trying to pull a girl from were Cuban drug dealers.

But don't let facts get in the way of your pursuit of laughter.

Post: #129

(12-27-2012 08:43 PM)maccc Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 05:07 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  I'm still laughing at the dude who complained there was no freedom because he couldn't bully some shorter guy and take his women.

Even our short guys will fuck you up.

I'm the dude you're referring to. I am American, and the guys who had the table I was trying to pull a girl from were Cuban drug dealers.

But don't let facts get in the way of your pursuit of laughter.

And you think that with stricter gun control laws, those Cuban drug dealers wouldn't have had guns? You think that with stricter gun control laws, Cuban drug dealers would have given up their guns, or wouldn't have gotten them on the black market? Cuban drug dealers are notorious for following the law to a T. I hear they don't even j-walk down in Miami. Real gentlemen, those Cuban drug dealers.






Oh fuck, is he j-walking right there......

Post: #130

(12-27-2012 04:58 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  Europeans love to hate on America due to jealousy. They never complain about their own country cause it's already over for them. No guns, freedom of speech, outrageous taxes, cameras everywhere, having to sitpee cause their g/f's tell them to.

"If we can't have it, neither should Americans".

lol such an American viewpoint, I'm not European so I can say that with no bias...anytime somebody critiques America, it's jealousy it has to be what else could it possibly be.

Post: #131

(12-27-2012 10:56 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  And you think that with stricter gun control laws, those Cuban drug dealers wouldn't have had guns? You think that with stricter gun control laws, Cuban drug dealers would have given up their guns, or wouldn't have gotten them on the black market? Cuban drug dealers are notorious for following the law to a T. I hear they don't even j-walk down in Miami. Real gentlemen, those Cuban drug dealers.

I'd like to think that if a gun ban were to be installed, the cleanup of guns would be done effectively. The removal of guns was done properly in Australia when their ban went into effect sometime in the 90s, so it is possible.

But in practice, I can't imagine a gun cleanup being executed smoothly in the US either, so I'm not proposing a gun ban. I was just making a point about how I feel more free to do what I want in a society where nobody is armed.

Post: #132

(12-28-2012 12:59 AM)mikeymike Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 04:58 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  Europeans love to hate on America due to jealousy. They never complain about their own country cause it's already over for them. No guns, freedom of speech, outrageous taxes, cameras everywhere, having to sitpee cause their g/f's tell them to.

"If we can't have it, neither should Americans".

lol such an American viewpoint, I'm not European so I can say that with no bias...anytime somebody critiques America, it's jealousy it has to be what else could it possibly be.

It's not an American viewpoint, it's a dumbass viewpoint, because instead of countering the opinion he's attacking the messenger, and a jealousy plotline makes that easy. For example, after the Armenians invaded Glendale and the rest of SoCal started talking shit about them, the automatic response would be "white people are jealous of Armenians because we are smarter than them, prettier than them etc"

Calling someone jealous is an easy rebuttal because it gets people reactive, as opposed to calling someone retarded or gay which is more likely to be ignored.

Post: #133

(12-27-2012 05:14 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(12-25-2012 02:27 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(12-25-2012 12:44 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  We also have a history of kicking the shit out of lippy Brits and running their asses back across the pond. Don't see why Pies is any different.

Don't you think it's dimunitive to compare this to the war of independence? You are giving Piers far more credit than he deserves by picking this fight with him.

No. We had to come over to Europe TWICE in one century to kick all ya'll's asses cause you "civilized" people don't know how to play nice with each other.

And I'm sure the citizens/students of Columbine, V Tech and Newton would profess you can.

I know you're just messing around Ali but you kinda walked into that one.

Post: #134

I don't hate Americans, I don't hate america, i love your women, they froth at the gash as soon as they hear my acccent. However I'm British, we look down on everyone, it's cultural upbringing. In fact, the French and the Spanish do the same. It's probably because all 3 had empires where the sun never set. The Germans? Ah they used to be like that, but then 2 World Wars and mass guilt changed them. The elite arabs are the same as us 'Ve had more oil and gas then you' of course we just say 'We drink tea and eat scones for breakfast darling'

Post: #135

I'm amused to see how Scandinavia is being used as an example here. Usually when things like welfare, taxation and similar are discussed I'm told Scandinavia is not valid to compare with due to X, Y, Z etc but it's all of a sudden a completely valid place for data when it comes to... Guns?

Ok.

Post: #136

(12-28-2012 04:04 AM)maccc Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 10:56 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  And you think that with stricter gun control laws, those Cuban drug dealers wouldn't have had guns? You think that with stricter gun control laws, Cuban drug dealers would have given up their guns, or wouldn't have gotten them on the black market? Cuban drug dealers are notorious for following the law to a T. I hear they don't even j-walk down in Miami. Real gentlemen, those Cuban drug dealers.

I'd like to think that if a gun ban were to be installed, the cleanup of guns would be done effectively. The removal of guns was done properly in Australia when their ban went into effect sometime in the 90s, so it is possible.

But in practice, I can't imagine a gun cleanup being executed smoothly in the US either, so I'm not proposing a gun ban. I was just making a point about how I feel more free to do what I want in a society where nobody is armed.

For someone who professes to not be for gun bans, you seem awfully dedicated to ignoring every valid point on why not feeling free to do what you wanted in that situation had far less to do with guns than it did your own assumptions - and possibly a bit of self-delusion.

Russia and Britain. Few arms + high crime. Would you feel comfortable doing what you "feel" like doing with gangsters in these countries?

And on top of that, would you assume that tighter gun restriction would mean the "gangsters" in these countries weren't armed?

Even if cleanups of legal guns went over, which I agree they wouldn't, that would do nothing for illegal guns in the hands of criminals. If it did, they wouldn't be packing now.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #137

(12-28-2012 05:10 AM)Vicious Wrote:  I'm amused to see how Scandinavia is being used as an example here. Usually when things like welfare, taxation and similar are discussed I'm told Scandinavia is not valid to compare with due to X, Y, Z etc but it's all of a sudden a completely valid place for data when it comes to... Guns?

Ok.

Not sure I get your point. Arguments and examples in this thread are invalid because people you argued with in other threads said they were when you used them...?

Or are you referring to the same people who shot you down on that basis?

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #138

(12-28-2012 04:59 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 05:14 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(12-25-2012 02:27 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(12-25-2012 12:44 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  We also have a history of kicking the shit out of lippy Brits and running their asses back across the pond. Don't see why Pies is any different.

Don't you think it's dimunitive to compare this to the war of independence? You are giving Piers far more credit than he deserves by picking this fight with him.

No. We had to come over to Europe TWICE in one century to kick all ya'll's asses cause you "civilized" people don't know how to play nice with each other.

And I'm sure the citizens/students of Columbine, V Tech and Newton would profess you can.

I know you're just messing around Ali but you kinda walked into that one.

I don't give a rat's ass about those in Columbine, V Tech, or Newton. Didn't know anyone there. People die everyday.

Post: #139

(12-28-2012 04:04 AM)maccc Wrote:  I was just making a point about how I feel more free to do what I want in a society where nobody is armed.

What kind of deviant shit do you want to do that makes you worry about getting shot? Because most rational people who guns have to be pushed pretty far to resort to that kind of violence. From what you said in your initial post, it clearly sounds like you don't want people armed because you want the freedom to bully others without being held accountable. Please respond.

Post: #140

Post: #141

(12-29-2012 12:39 AM)houston Wrote:  

This is the typical oversimplified good guy- bad guy thinking that is so prevalent in this discussion.

But there are no good or bad guys. It's not that black and white.

The majority of killers are neither good nor bad imho, furthermore most of them aren't mentally ill.

Normal people can turn into killers given the right circumstances AND access to weapons. And that is the problem. The average Joe Shmoe in the US has access to weapons, the average dude in my country hasn't - big difference.

Post: #142

(12-29-2012 12:35 AM)porscheguy Wrote:  

(12-28-2012 04:04 AM)maccc Wrote:  I was just making a point about how I feel more free to do what I want in a society where nobody is armed.

What kind of deviant shit do you want to do that makes you worry about getting shot? Because most rational people who guns have to be pushed pretty far to resort to that kind of violence. From what you said in your initial post, it clearly sounds like you don't want people armed because you want the freedom to bully others without being held accountable. Please respond.

I don't know what his reasoning is, but I can understand why someone would say that. In a society where people are armed, you have to walk on eggshells to avoid confrontation on the off chance that the person you're dealing with is a lunatic with a gun. It could be anything, a dispute over a parking space, it could be some asshole who elbowed your child out of the way in a park, whatever. If there's the possibility that the person is armed with a gun, and you're rational, you may be tempted to avoid confrontation in order to avoid even the remote risk that a minor dispute becomes deadly.

Post: #143

(12-29-2012 01:42 PM)sheesh Wrote:  This is the typical oversimplified good guy- bad guy thinking that is so prevalent in this discussion.

But there are no good or bad guys. It's not that black and white.

The majority of killers are neither good nor bad imho, furthermore most of them aren't mentally ill.

Oh, but it IS black and white. The principal of the elementary school at Newtown, instead of being unarmed and charging at Adam Lanza, should have whipped out a Glock and blasted him into kingdom come.

Because that THAT moment, Adam Lanza was bad. Very bad.

Post: #144

(12-29-2012 02:11 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(12-29-2012 01:42 PM)sheesh Wrote:  This is the typical oversimplified good guy- bad guy thinking that is so prevalent in this discussion.

But there are no good or bad guys. It's not that black and white.

The majority of killers are neither good nor bad imho, furthermore most of them aren't mentally ill.

Oh, but it IS black and white. The principal of the elementary school at Newtown, instead of being unarmed and charging at Adam Lanza, should have whipped out a Glock and blasted him into kingdom come.

Because that THAT moment, Adam Lanza was bad. Very bad.

Surely the principal would have been at the right place at the right time to gun down Adam Lanza...


In this scenario, everyone would have to be constantly armed. This doesn't make a society safer.

Post: #145

(12-20-2012 01:14 AM)houston Wrote:  Funny how the people most vocal about America's guns ain't even from here.

This is the song I listen to when I'm cleaning my baby

Surprised you knew C-Bo, I thought only those from the 916 were mainly familiar with him. You have good choice in music

Post: #146

I'd like to ask the US members:
do you own guns or know how to shoot?
What do you think of gun ownership on the whole?
What influences that position- military/police background, parental influence, rural childhood?

I can't own a gun, since I'm not a farmer and don't live near a rifle club, but learning to shoot is one of my New Year's resolutions. I doubt that private gun ownership will ever be widespread, and when so many people can't drink, drive or spend responsibly, they are not likely to have that level of self-control and self-awareness to handle a firearm.
(I freely include myself in this category; I'm not being arrogant.)
I do think everyone should learn to respond to physical confrontation, though. Sometimes there will be no police to help you out of a jam, and your safety and self-defence is your own responsibility, just as sometimes, someone might have a medical emergency when an ambulance is nowhere nearby, and it falls to you to do something. That's just taking responsibility for your own life, after all.

Post: #147

I don't mean to bump this thread, but someone else already did a couple of days ago.

What I think happens a lot on threads like this is people lose sight of why they are having the discussion in the first place.

Piers Morgan was too emotional in his argument, however he probably did that for rhetorical reasons. Of course it didn't work...he's in America after all.

What I want to know is how many Americans have guns in their home? How many carry it with them? And most importantly how many ever get to use it and how many know how?

It seems to me the main problem here is FEAR...fear of what exactly?

Many people say if that school (the recent tragedy) had guns they would've taken the kid out...but if it weren't for guns that kid would've never had the opportunity in the first place.

Throughout Europe it is very difficult for that average person to get guns...Fine, organised criminals can get guns...but, then again organised criminal don't go around shooting ordinary citizens either so that can't be the excuse for the average citizen getting a gun in the first place.

I'm not "anti gun ownership" or "pro", but I don't get the logic of those who support the 2nd amendment on the basis that it is going to protect them.

If they have a gun and you have a gun does this equal safety? What percentage of the average american have ever fired a weapon at someone? How many can hit a target accurately when their hands are trembling? How many have shot dead someone who has pulled a gun on them? Would they only shoot someone who fired at them first?

IMO if someone who isn't going to shoot because you have a gun they aren't going to shoot you anyway.

Remember, that kid in Newtown shot himself in the end, he was prepared to die...I believe his anger was at his teacher mom and the kids? If he had half a brain and knew the school had arms IF they did he would have simply waited until they were vulnerable...

Post: #148

(01-12-2013 06:09 PM)3agle 3yes Wrote:  I don't mean to bump this thread, but someone else already did a couple of days ago.

What I think happens a lot on threads like this is people lose sight of why they are having the discussion in the first place.

Piers Morgan was too emotional in his argument, however he probably did that for rhetorical reasons. Of course it didn't work...he's in America after all.

What I want to know is how many Americans have guns in their home? How many carry it with them? And most importantly how many ever get to use it and how many know how?

It seems to me the main problem here is FEAR...fear of what exactly?

Many people say if that school (the recent tragedy) had guns they would've taken the kid out...but if it weren't for guns that kid would've never had the opportunity in the first place.

Throughout Europe it is very difficult for that average person to get guns...Fine, organised criminals can get guns...but, then again organised criminal don't go around shooting ordinary citizens either so that can't be the excuse for the average citizen getting a gun in the first place.

I'm not "anti gun ownership" or "pro", but I don't get the logic of those who support the 2nd amendment on the basis that it is going to protect them.

If they have a gun and you have a gun does this equal safety? What percentage of the average american have ever fired a weapon at someone? How many can hit a target accurately when their hands are trembling? How many have shot dead someone who has pulled a gun on them? Would they only shoot someone who fired at them first?

IMO if someone who isn't going to shoot because you have a gun they aren't going to shoot you anyway.

Remember, that kid in Newtown shot himself in the end, he was prepared to die...I believe his anger was at his teacher mom and the kids? If he had half a brain and knew the school had arms IF they did he would have simply waited until they were vulnerable...

You are missing the whole point of the 2nd amendment. The right to a gun is to protect yourself from a tyrannical government. It's not for hunting or to even protect your home.

But obviously people use for self defense since the cops would never be there in time to save you anyways.

Now that you know what the 2nd amendment is for think back and see how helpful that would have been in Europe for the last 300 years. Something tells me 99% of the wars would have never happened.

Post: #149

(01-12-2013 06:09 PM)3agle 3yes Wrote:  I don't mean to bump this thread, but someone else already did a couple of days ago.

What I think happens a lot on threads like this is people lose sight of why they are having the discussion in the first place.

I'm not sure it was ever in your sights to begin with...

Quote:Piers Morgan was too emotional in his argument, however he probably did that for rhetorical reasons. Of course it didn't work...he's in America after all.

What do you mean by that?

Quote:Many people say if that school (the recent tragedy) had guns they would've taken the kid out...but if it weren't for guns that kid would've never had the opportunity in the first place.

Whether guns are illegal or not, they will still exist. Not to mention school massacres have ocurred using other weapons. Sometimes homemade.

The problem is fear - you're right. Fear based on the false impression that school shootings are on the rise. Fear based on school shootings, which constitute less than 1% of homicides in America.

Gun enthusiasts tend to be realists. Gun control advocates are the ones selling fear.

Quote:Throughout Europe it is very difficult for that average person to get guns...Fine, organised criminals can get guns...but, then again organised criminal don't go around shooting ordinary citizens either so that can't be the excuse for the average citizen getting a gun in the first place.

Says who? You?

Quote:I'm not "anti gun ownership" or "pro", but I don't get the logic of those who support the 2nd amendment on the basis that it is going to protect them.

We don't support it to protect us from criminals. We support the 2nd amendment to provide "insurance" against government tyranny. As a European, you no doubt realize instances of tyrannical governments abound in history and are not a figment of the imagination...

But since I also believe in the use of guns for personal protection, I'll bite:

Quote:If they have a gun and you have a gun does this equal safety?

It sure feels a lot safer than them having one while my government demands I go unarmed. Don't you feel safer when you at least have the choice to shoot back?

Maybe you're a pacifist. Great. But don't force us to live in a violent society without means to defend ourselves because of your high moral standard.

Quote:What percentage of the average american have ever fired a weapon at someone?

Undoubtedly less than 1%. Which raises the question - why are gun control advocates so afraid of guns in the hands of us law-abiding citizens? As you pointed out, we're not all shooting at each other.

Quote:How many can hit a target accurately when their hands are trembling? How many have shot dead someone who has pulled a gun on them? Would they only shoot someone who fired at them first?

You underestimate gun owners and you're ignoring the fact that every time a massacre has been stopped dead in its tracks was due to a civilian or off-duty cop being present with a gun. Because it takes time for cops to get there and intervene, these sickos enjoy a free-for all until the guns arrive.

Quote:IMO if someone who isn't going to shoot because you have a gun they aren't going to shoot you anyway.

The shooters often miss and they can't shoot everyone at once.

And think about it. If these people have the nuts to charge a shooter unarmed - several always do - they'd have the nuts to shoot back.

But in these situations, the gun is not meant to be a deterrent (even though it is). It's meant to shoot some asshole and unload your clip until he stops and goes down. Period.

But...

Quote:Remember, that kid in Newtown shot himself in the end, he was prepared to die...

He shot himself as soon as he saw a cop....when the armed calvalry arrived. In most cases, that's what these cowards do. Kill themselves when they face armed opposition. Hmmmm...

Quote:I believe his anger was at his teacher mom and the kids? If he had half a brain and knew the school had arms IF they did he would have simply waited until they were vulnerable...

His mom didn't even teach there and no one knew her. It was a media error or a flat out lie.

Even if she had been and you were right, how would he be able to wait? Wait until when?

Larry Pratt is not arguing for arming the schools. He's arguing for allowing teachers who already want a concealed carry permit to go ahead and get one. He's arguing for an end to gun-free zones, where these massacres almost always happen. With permits allowed, Lanza wouldn't have known when people were packing and when they weren't because "concealing" something hides it from view.

If you're going to dredge up an argument that's been beaten to death a million times, do your homework...

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #150

(12-28-2012 05:01 AM)bojangles Wrote:  I don't hate Americans, I don't hate america, i love your women, they froth at the gash as soon as they hear my acccent. However I'm British, we look down on everyone, it's cultural upbringing. In fact, the French and the Spanish do the same. It's probably because all 3 had empires where the sun never set. The Germans? Ah they used to be like that, but then 2 World Wars and mass guilt changed them. The elite arabs are the same as us 'Ve had more oil and gas then you' of course we just say 'We drink tea and eat scones for breakfast darling'

But there's not much to sing about in the old country is there now.