Post: #51

(12-14-2012 02:15 PM)IQVX Wrote:  

(12-14-2012 01:54 PM)Roosh Wrote:  27 people, 100 people, it no longer matters. There will not be a single change to the foundation of America's values and culture that will halt these events. The media loves these stories because it gets them page views, the politicians love it because it distracts the populace and scores easy points with their base, and both the right and left love it because it allows them to strengthen and test their policy arguments. The president will come out to say some somber words and his approval ratings will go up. Everyone has something to talk about this weekend, about how horrible the event was and we'll pretend we care about these unlucky kids so that for one minute we'll feel compassion for our fellow man, and then Monday will resume as normal and no one will care. I'm not sure what's worse anymore, American mass shootings or the response to them.

How else do you expect people to respond? To ignore them completely or to forever feel personally bad? People feel legitimate sadness about the deceased and their families - at least I know I do. It's not "pretending" - But I think we all acknowledge it's impossible to relate directly to them, so yes, we will continue back to living our lives. How can you let something stay on your mind, no matter how horrid, if you're a busy person and said event didn't relate directly to you?

I feel like you have a gripe against human nature, and are just looking for a fight where there doesn't need to be one. Honestly I feel like common sense can explain all the problems you have with America's response to mass shootings.

I agree. But my caveat is that it's a good thing that people will get over it and continue on like normal in a week. This is not some flaw endemic to callous American consumerists. It's human nature. And it's a requirement for us to be able to function, psychological and as a society. Just as something pleasurable won't make you happy for ever, something sad won't make you sad forever. Your brain's equilibrium re-balances itself and makes the situation the new normal. Roosh has actually discussed this phenomenon on his blog before. So what would society be like if we didn't quickly get over these sort of things and return to our normal routines? Tragedies on some scale happen every day in the world. We'd be psychologically paralyzed from morbid obsession to the point that we couldn't function. So I think it's good that we have the ability to move on with our lives, which isn't the same thing as forgetting or not caring. I don't think it'll be forgotten, at all. People will be talking about this years from now like we still do with Columbine.

As for the reactions, of course there will be more debate on gun control and some public statements. If Obama makes a public statement it's criticized as being the predictable same-ol same-ol, and if he didn't make one, he'd be criticized for not giving a shit. I think the cynicism is a bit much. Are presidents and politicians only supposed to react if it's a 9/11 scale tragedy?

It's hard for Americans to come to terms with problems like this because it's in our culture to want quick solutions that work. They want to sign a piece of legislation that will somehow stop such a tragedy from happening again. Truth is nobody really knows what to do about it. You can control guns but that doesn't address the root problem of why someone would even want to do something like this in the first place. Why is our society producing more of these individuals that are like powder kegs waiting to go off? Like some of you suggested, I'm willing to bet the guy was a loner, socially estranged, wasn't getting laid, etc. At the center of this may be increasing social alienation. Fewer people know their neighbors or know anything about them. We're more private our lives. We do more shit by ourselves. Family ties are looser. More broken homes and single moms. Something is causing autism/Aspergers to rise. And of course more and more guys have less access to the sedating effects that sex, marriage and family brings. This stuff is far more difficult to address than signing a piece of gun control legislation. So don't hold your breath for any rapid solutions.

Post: #52

This brought back memories of the 1996 Dunblane, Scotland school shooting, where a gunman entered the Dunblane Primary School with 4 guns and killed 16 kids (15 five year-olds, and one six year-old) and one adult, their teacher. He also took his own life. Andy Murray, the top 4 tennis pro, was a student there at the time I believe. There is no understanding or reason to these kinds of massacres, especially when little children are targeted. Sometimes there's intent to kill a specific person, and they just take out a bunch of others on the way there. Most of us aren't capable of understanding what goes on in the head of someone like these killers.

Post: #53

ONe comment in the NY Times:

" In one year, guns murdered 17 people in Finland, 35 in Australia, 39 in England and Wales, 60 in Spain, 194 in Germany, 200 in Canada, and 9,484 in the United States."

Now have a deep guess of WHAT would the most plausible cause be for this humongous amount of victims in the U.S.....

You got it.

Post: #54

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Post: #55

Stories like this I ignore for a couple of days because almost everything about it in the media is wrong, corrected and re-corrected, while the facts come out later.

But they have to get that news scoop!

Post: #56

Yeah, if a psycho has resolved to make the world burn at any cost, he'll find the tools no matter what laws you put in front of him.

Notice how it's always men, too. The 21st century West takes a shit on certain types of men and some guys can't figure out how to climb out of it. Most of them just bury themselves in drugs, alcohol, porn, video games, or in extreme cases they off themselves. It's the outliers of this group who take it even further and commit something truly sinister and despicable, probably due to underlying chemical imbalances.

But the point is they aren't isolated senseless mysteries, they're just the most extreme cases of blowback from a greater pool of disenfranchised, frustrated men that our society produces. And making media heroes out of every one of them doesn't help discourage the other high risk omegas on the brink of going postal either.

What's funny is guys like Roosh are doing more to fix this problem than anyone else on the planet, and most of the media coverage he gets tries to portray him in a similar light -- like some deranged psychopath.

Post: #57

(12-14-2012 05:28 PM)michelin Wrote:  ONe comment in the NY Times:

" In one year, guns murdered 17 people in Finland, 35 in Australia, 39 in England and Wales, 60 in Spain, 194 in Germany, 200 in Canada, and 9,484 in the United States."

Now have a deep guess of WHAT would the most plausible cause be for this humongous amount of victims in the U.S.....

You got it.

There's no doubt that if guns were absolutely illegal tomorrow, you'd see a drop in gun deaths. But I think most Americans would rather live with a higher gun death rate and have the right to own one. I think that's just a decision we've made as a society. Repealing the 2nd amendment would cause a second civil war.

Also, comparing us to places like Finland and Australia is a bit unfair. They have such tiny populations that of course the number will be small in comparison. There are more people in the NYC metro area alone than there are in the entire continent of Australia or all of Scandinavia. We also have a lot more thugs. Even though the school gun shootings are the most dramatic for news headlines, most gun murders are one-off shootings between acquaintances, or some drug dealer that didn't get his money on time. But in those cases, most don't really care much so long as it doesn't happen in their neighborhood.

Post: #58

I'm not sure if I'm fully on bored with the hypothesis that the cause of all this mass killings is sexual frustration. However, as far as I can tell 95% of these mass killers are men, very "beta" men who have poor social skills, are awkward, and undoubtedly are horrible with women. Sexual frustration can be a potentially destructive force in man. We all need some form of outlet, most drown themselves in porn, but I really think prostitution should be made legal. Not that it would cure this issue by any means, but maybe if a guy like the Colorado shooter could roll down to the local brothel drop a few hundred bones to get his dick wet, he would have chilled the fuck out and not gone on such a rampage? Anyways just a thought, probably wrong, but still think prostitution should be legal.

Post: #59

Guys I was in tears this morning when I heard about this. I just imagined those children overwhelmed with fear and confusion and I have never wanted more than anything just to be able to stand in that doorway, even for two seconds, just to try and get them out of there and cover their ears and close their eyes. This is so awful. We are supposed to be their protectors.

Post: #60

(12-14-2012 05:57 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  I'm not sure if I'm fully on bored with the hypothesis that the cause of all this mass killings is sexual frustration. However, as far as I can tell 95% of these mass killers are men, very "beta" men who have poor social skills, are awkward, and undoubtedly are horrible with women. Sexual frustration can be a potentially destructive force in man. We all need some form of outlet, most drown themselves in porn, but I really think prostitution should be made legal. Not that it would cure this issue by any means, but maybe if a guy like the Colorado shooter could roll down to the local brothel drop a few hundred bones to get his dick wet, he would have chilled the fuck out and not gone on such a rampage? Anyways just a thought, probably wrong, but still think prostitution should be legal.

Yeah.

We need to legalize prostitution.

And drugs.

And gambling for that matter.

Let's make sh*t fun. What are we waiting for?

This "repression" stuff obviously doesn't work.

I bet this stuff would happen with way less frequency.

Post: #61

(12-14-2012 03:10 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(12-14-2012 03:01 PM)Alpha Hunter Zero Wrote:  For this particular case if capital punishment (instead of a life sentence) was frequently used on murderers who were proven without a doubt guilty than you could be sure anyone who was thinking of pulling something like this tragedy would think twice before getting their hands on a gun and pulling the trigger.

What is a punishment to a man who's got nothing to live for in the first place? Most of these mass-murders kill themselves after their crimes, I don't think increasing punishments will stop them.


The fact of the matter is that there are no immediate solutions to this. America produces disenfranchised men, and these men have absolutely nothing to live for, so they have no remorse for any of their actions and probably want to kill themselves in the first place.

Frankly, prison in itself should be a deterent to crime, but recidivism is rampant. The purpose of the death penalty is to remove those that cannot live in civilized society without threatening the lives of others. Deterence has nothing to do with it. Besides, most that commit capital crimes don't think about how they'll be punished IF they get caught. Others don't really care, because as Samseau touched on, they feel they have nothing to lose. One of the common threads in many of these spree killings is that the perpetrator takes his own life once he completes his task, or is cornered. For those that leave writings, many make it clear that this will be their last act on this Earth.

Post: #62

(12-14-2012 05:19 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  It's hard for Americans to come to terms with problems like this because it's in our culture to want quick solutions that work. They want to sign a piece of legislation that will somehow stop such a tragedy from happening again. Truth is nobody really knows what to do about it. You can control guns but that doesn't address the root problem of why someone would even want to do something like this in the first place. Why is our society producing more of these individuals that are like powder kegs waiting to go off? Like some of you suggested, I'm willing to bet the guy was a loner, socially estranged, wasn't getting laid, etc. At the center of this may be increasing social alienation. Fewer people know their neighbors or know anything about them. We're more private our lives. We do more shit by ourselves. Family ties are looser. More broken homes and single moms. Something is causing autism/Aspergers to rise. And of course more and more guys have less access to the sedating effects that sex, marriage and family brings. This stuff is far more difficult to address than signing a piece of gun control legislation. So don't hold your breath for any rapid solutions.

But see, Speakeasy, right there you're starting a dialogue that doesn't happen in this country. At least not in the public media, and that's what bothers me. These events get batted about by the talking heads and at best, we can expect some legislation to get passed regarding gun laws. But that doesn't change the CULTURE.

Why doesn't this conversation happen in the media? I already know the answer to it: it challenges the machine. It's always been in the top interests of the media and powers-that-be to keep the plows moving, tend the fields, etc.

Hell, when 9/11 happened, we were all urged to continue our business and keep shopping. At what point do we look in the mirror as a society, wake up, and initiate some change? Is that too idealistic? How violent do we have to get, how many senseless murders have to happen for people to wake up and start addressing the flaws in the fabric of American society?

I don't know the answers, I don't know what compels someone to load up a gun and kill a bunch of children. But I think the responsible and intelligent thing to do, I think the ONLY thing to do, is find out why this happens. I have a feeling and some theories as to why it happens. You struck a solid chord with the social alienation. Isolation will make anyone go insane, and as we speed forward in this hyper-competitive, hyper-materialistic capitalist society, I only see the issue getting worse.

Post: #63

It's so hard to figure out how to handle something like this in our society - and it's become such a regular part of our society...

One part of you wants to say that this is the type of thing where actually torturing the perpetrators would be called for. Not only because of that part of you that wants someone like that to suffer but also because it seems like the only way to scare people out of doing it anymore.

Problem with even that horrible thought is that these people rarely, if ever, make it into the hands of authorities in the first place. They almost always kill themselves or suicide by cop.

There's nothing you can do but get to the root of the matter, and if we don't start figuring out how to do that (very unlikely), we've got an extremely frightening scenario on our hands that will probably get far worse before it gets better...And that's coming from an optimist...

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #64

I literally felt sick to my stomach when I heard about this earlier today. Like I actually thought I might vomit for a minute, and I don't exactly have a weak stomach. This shit was just so fucking heinous and evil.

I think these things definitely have more to do with America being a culturally sick society than a society overflowing with guns.

For someone to perpetrate an act like this, there must have been an unbelievable feeling of alienation in the person's mind. I mean, when you deliberately murder a roomful of children by executing them at point blank range, you've essentially renounced your status as a human being. The guy felt so alienated that he could no longer relate to other humans at all.

This is the inevitable result of a society that increasingly shits on the majority of men, and particularly on low-betas and omegas. These men feel beaten down by society, and as has been pointed out already, most simply retreat into drugs, alcohol, video games or other mind numbing endeavors. But some guys are going to snap like this. In years past this guy would have probably been going steady with a nice girl, thinking about settling down and starting a family. But in today's society, he's just one of the millions of losers who will never get ahead economically or socially. He was probably a virgin with no friends. No support structure besides his family (which he murdered in his rage along with the innocent children). Nothing to live for. No purpose. No sense of community. No hope for the future.

And just think, there are millions of guys like this out there. Millions of guys who are just barely getting by, who feel alienated from society, who haven't gotten any decent pussy in years, who have no connection to their community, who are slowly losing touch with what it means to be a man. Hell, with what it means to be a human being.

It will get worse before it gets better.

Post: #65

As a gun owner, I'm starting to rethink my position on gun laws. With this tragedy, young people getting shot by civilian gun owners, the movie shooting, the mall in Oregon shooting---I think maybe only cops and military should have guns. But thats a fantasy in this country. I guess I'm just venting. This shit is upsetting.

Post: #66

(12-14-2012 06:03 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(12-14-2012 05:57 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  I'm not sure if I'm fully on bored with the hypothesis that the cause of all this mass killings is sexual frustration. However, as far as I can tell 95% of these mass killers are men, very "beta" men who have poor social skills, are awkward, and undoubtedly are horrible with women. Sexual frustration can be a potentially destructive force in man. We all need some form of outlet, most drown themselves in porn, but I really think prostitution should be made legal. Not that it would cure this issue by any means, but maybe if a guy like the Colorado shooter could roll down to the local brothel drop a few hundred bones to get his dick wet, he would have chilled the fuck out and not gone on such a rampage? Anyways just a thought, probably wrong, but still think prostitution should be legal.

Yeah.

We need to legalize prostitution.

And drugs.

And gambling for that matter.

Let's make sh*t fun. What are we waiting for?

This "repression" stuff obviously doesn't work.

I bet this stuff would happen with way less frequency.

Agreed.

Prostitution and at least some recreational drugs are going to have to be not only legalized but unstigmatized if this stuff is going to at least decrease. Certain men need to be flat out encouraged to use these if horrors like this are going to be prevented.

Women simply will not keep their weight under control unless there is a direct financial incentive to do so. Even then, you are going to have men with high sex drives with no outlet. Yes, most will just use porn, booze, and video games. But w/o hookers and weed, some guys are going to snap.

I'd rather have more red light districts than 20 dead children. And I hate kids.

Post: #67

(12-14-2012 03:31 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  Then water it a little bit:

"Just change out the face with the most recent guy."

I always see that picture as status updates on my facebook every time there is a shooting and the perpetrator is a white guy (which it usually is in these mass shootings except for a few.

Post: #68

The Onion provided the most accurate illustration of my feelings following the breaking of this story:

December 14, 2012 | ISSUE 48•50 | More News

Quote:WASHINGTON—Following the fatal shooting this morning at a Connecticut elementary school that left at least 27 dead, including 20 small children, sources across the nation shook their heads, stifled a sob in their voices, and reported fuck everything. Just fuck it all to hell.

All of it, sources added.

“I’m sorry, but fuck it, I can’t handle this—I just can’t handle it anymore,” said Deborah McEllis, who added that “no, no, no, no, no, this isn’t happening, this can’t be real.” “Seriously, what the hell is this? What’s even going on anymore? Why do things like this keep happening?”

Continued McEllis, before covering her face with her hands, “Why?”

Despairing sources confirmed that the gunman, armed with a semiautomatic assault rifle—a fucking combat rifle, Jesus—walked into a classroom full of goddamned children where his mother was a teacher and, good God, if this is what the world is becoming, then how about we just pack it in and fucking give up, because this is no way to live.

I mean, honestly, all 315 million Americans confirmed.

“Well, I suppose we have to try to pick up the pieces and make some sort of sense of this tragedy and—you know what? Fuck it, I can’t do this,” said Connecticut resident Michael Zaleski, his remarks understandable given the circumstances, because, holy shit, what else can one say? “I’m sorry, but I can’t fucking do this. Can you? Can anyone?”

Witnesses said the gunman fired at least 100 rounds during his deadly rampage, which, according to children in the school—goddamnit, how? How? Twenty children. Dead. In a fucking school.

No. No, no, no.

“I just feel so [why does it even matter what this person said when no words can bring 20 dead kids back to life?]” said some person who, just like everyone else, is completely unable to process or handle any of this. “It’s awful. Just too awful to bear.”

Americans reported feelings of overwhelming disgust with whatever abhorrent bastard did this and with the world at large for ever allowing it to happen, as well as with politicians, with the NRA, and above all with their own pathetic goddamn selves, sitting in front of a fucking computer instead of doing fucking anything to help anyone—Christ, as if that were even fucking possible, as if anyone could change what happened, as if the same fucking bullshit isn’t going to keep happening again and again and fucking again before people finally decide it’s time to change the way we live, so what’s the point? What the hell is the goddamned point?

“I…” said Tom Miller, 27, after reading an article about the tragedy online. “I just…”

“…” he added.

At press time…screw it, there’s nothing else to say.

Post: #69

My Russian friend on VK showed me this when I told her what happened/

Post: #70

(12-14-2012 02:18 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  There will be the usual gun control debate in the media. I hope it doesn't start up on the RVF boards. Gun control has absolutely nothing to do with it. There are countries that are as heavily armed or more as the U.S. that doesn't see this type of violence or as frequently.

If gun laws were stricter people would get them illegally. If guns were somehow removed people would use bombs, or knives, or their bare hands. The discussion here is about violence in American culture. You could have an armed guard in every classroom and these tragedies would still happen.

Roosh is right on. People will mourn, shake their heads, have moments of silence in disbelief, and then a week later everyone's back to do their holiday shopping.

Our culture is deeply broken.

wow...

gun control has EVERYTHING to do with it.

look at Australia... they had a massacre in 1996...

immediately they did something about it. the government brought in the strictest laws in the world. people HAD to hand in their guns and the government payed them cash for doing it or go to jail..so existing guns were eliminated.

and what was the result-not a massacre since.

u need to live there to realise how impossible for the average person to get a gun illegally there. u need to be seriously hooked up.

wow until America wakes up and quits their gun loving ways and outdated constitutional baring arms bullshit these incidents will continue to go on and on..

eliminate guns- slowly eliminate these incidents...simple

Post: #71

People who say gun control would stop shit like from happening in the future have no idea how easy it is to get a "throwaway" or illegal one on the streets. There's way to many guns floating around to ever expect that to go away.

Post: #72

true but its a start..the harder u make it u automatically begin to decrease the frequency of the incidents

the gun buy back scheme in australia was so successful because of the amount of money the government were giving for the guns..people wanted to hand them in..it was something like 2 or 3 times what they were worth

u can sit around and say yeah its all too hard, never will happen and come up with excuses..then keep wondering why it is happening
or u can be pro active and do something about it and get the process rolling and future generations will benefit.

it wont happen overnight....

Post: #73

(12-14-2012 09:33 PM)houston Wrote:  People who say gun control would stop shit like from happening in the future have no idea how easy it is to get a "throwaway" or illegal one on the streets. There's way to many guns floating around to ever expect that to go away.

Agreed. I know very few people who even bother getting a gun license.

And every guy I know who sells guns can and will also access throwaways. If private gun ownership suddenly became illegal, nearly every single one of these gun dealers would switch completely over to the black market, especially considering their belief in the right to bear arms.

The "rebel" attitude is somewhat part of mainstream culture in America. There will always be an abundance of guns, legal or not. It isn't going anywhere.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #74

(12-14-2012 09:33 PM)houston Wrote:  People who say gun control would stop shit like from happening in the future have no idea how easy it is to get a "throwaway" or illegal one on the streets. There's way to many guns floating around to ever expect that to go away.

Is it really that easy to find guns if your Johnny Reddit living in your parents basement though? I understand that the underground gun network is huge, but that is directly connected the the criminal network. Would these beta neckbeards really be able to make the connections to acquire a weapon? It's not like their WOW buddies are dealing.


Has there been a massacre in recent memory where the gunmen had illegal weapons?

Post: #75

If you know where to get a sack of weed in America, you can get an illegal gun. Someone will know someone who knows someone.