Post: #1

I have been to Kiev a long time ago, but I am no expert on Ukraine.
But from all the threads and posts I have read it does not seem now, like a country I would want to return to, for many reasons.
Now Vorkuta has a great idea about some of us going to Siberia. I am not kidding myself that it will be easy there, but I dont mind a struggle.... if the women are worth it.
I will put in a ton of work learning Russian, as I know as a Latino American man it will be difficult for me.
So my questions for the few who have been in both countries:
What would be the difference between living in a 2nd Tier Russian City compared to living in the Ukraine? Is 2nd tier Russia really worth it and better?

Post: #2

2nd tier Russia v's 2nd tier Ukraine or 2nd tier v's Kiev?

Kiev is totally played out in my opinion. Yes you will get laid there but not with the women you want to be banging. Foreigners have tarnished images there due to the amount of sex tourists. I would not return to Kiev. Second tier Russia is a place where we don't yet have images that are tarnished yet for the most part and hence don't have barriers to and hurdles to break down due solely to our foreignness.

What are your three most important needs Choche? If for example cost is highly important then hit Ukraine. If you don't want visa issues then hit Ukraine etc.

Post: #3

(12-01-2012 01:18 PM)Vorkuta Wrote:  2nd tier Russia v's 2nd tier Ukraine or 2nd tier v's Kiev?

Kiev is totally played out in my opinion. Yes you will get laid there but not with the women you want to be banging. Foreigners have tarnished images there due to the amount of sex tourists. I would not return to Kiev. Second tier Russia is a place where we don't yet have images that are tarnished yet for the most part and hence don't have barriers to and hurdles to break down due solely to our foreignness.

What are your three most important needs Choche? If for example cost is highly important then hit Ukraine. If you don't want visa issues then hit Ukraine etc.

Vorkuta my most important needs are great looking girls who have not been corrupted, friendly people who wont try to scam you all the time and exoticness being a plus. That is why 2nd tier Russia sounds great to me and Ukraine doesnt.
Money is not an issue for me. The visa issue for me is the same in Ukraine as in Russia. Just that their is so little info on 2nd tier Russia, so I know not what to expect.
All I am trying to discover is whether my romantic vision of 2nd tier Russia is true or just a silly little dream lol.

Post: #4

For an impression before you go, If you can read + understand Russian, and have a Vkontakte account, check on the city groups. Some of them are pretty much static, but some others are very active. You can see what some day-to-day stuff goes on. Also, most Russian photographers have a lifejournal account (weird, I know) and they post pictures and notes about all the places they have been. Russia is great, but be careful with high expectations, because if you set the bar so high, no place in the world will match it.

Post: #5

(12-01-2012 01:53 PM)Volk Wrote:  For an impression before you go, If you can read + understand Russian, and have a Vkontakte account, check on the city groups. Some of them are pretty much static, but some others are very active. You can see what some day-to-day stuff goes on. Also, most Russian photographers have a lifejournal account (weird, I know) and they post pictures and notes about all the places they have been. Russia is great, but be careful with high expectations, because if you set the bar so high, no place in the world will match it.

Volk my expectations for myself in 2nd tier Russia are low. But as long as it is not Ukraine with all its crap, I will be happy.

Post: #6

Well then, what are you waiting for? You won't be sure until you go. I can't wait to be back in Russia myself, I don't even need a visa for it!

Post: #7

(12-01-2012 02:16 PM)Volk Wrote:  Well then, what are you waiting for? You won't be sure until you go. I can't wait to be back in Russia myself, I don't even need a visa for it!

I will go unless some holy power stops me. I didnt go to Poland this fall, for a reason I will explain to Vorkuta once I meet him in Siberia.

Post: #8

(12-01-2012 01:28 PM)chochemonger1 Wrote:  Vorkuta my most important needs are great looking girls who have not been corrupted, friendly people who wont try to scam you all the time and exoticness being a plus. That is why 2nd tier Russia sounds great to me and Ukraine doesnt.
Money is not an issue for me. The visa issue for me is the same in Ukraine as in Russia. Just that their is so little info on 2nd tier Russia, so I know not what to expect.
All I am trying to discover is whether my romantic vision of 2nd tier Russia is true or just a silly little dream lol.

I understand your concerns.

You're considering spending a lot of money to fly half way around the world from a place you are comfortable and have success in to a place you've never been before. On top of that you realize you will need to be investing time and effort into the task of learning Russian and so of course it's only natural to want some kind of re-assurance that you are doing the right thing and it will all be worth it. I would have the exact same concerns if I was considering somewhere like South America.

Choche it would be grossly unfair of me to give you a rose tinted view of second tier Russia and paint it as something it isn't only for you to get there and realize it wasn't what you were hoping for or expected. Therefore I'll be totally honest.

I can only say what I experienced in second tier Russia personally. On my trip there I dated women much better looking then I get in the UK. I dated women who were younger and more feminine then in the UK,women who were as close to my ideal as it is realistic for me to get. I found that by being foreign people wanted to meet me and get to know me. Women did not throw themselves at me but when I approached women I usually got good responses. I had to make effort but it was rewarded. Nobody cheated me or tried to cheat me. Everyone I met was friendly. I loved the experience and can't wait to get back. There was something magical about being in deepest Russia,way off the beaten track and being surrounded by sweet and friendly Russian girls and getting success.

Now that was my experience as a bald very average looking white guy in his ( then,mid thirties ) who speaks a little Russian. Will my experience be exactly the same for you? I don't know,you may do much better or maybe worse,I can't predict this. I can't promise you that it will live up to your dreams for the place but what I will say is that if I did not believe in the possibilities for all of us out there I would never have suggested the Siberia trip. I genuinely believe we will all have a great time and get a fair share of success.

The choice is entirely yours Choche. I'll just say this,this is once in a lifetime kind of stuff. Unless you go you will always have that nagging feeling of regret and of not knowing what might have been. It's a month or two out of your life but then a lifetime of funny memories of a group of likeminded friend's having a crazy adventure in deepest Siberia. The worst thing that can happen is you don't like the women or the food or the weather etc. but so what? At least you will have done something 99% of people only dream about and you can then go back to SA and appreciate that place more.

Post: #9

(12-01-2012 03:33 PM)Vorkuta Wrote:  

(12-01-2012 01:28 PM)chochemonger1 Wrote:  Vorkuta my most important needs are great looking girls who have not been corrupted, friendly people who wont try to scam you all the time and exoticness being a plus. That is why 2nd tier Russia sounds great to me and Ukraine doesnt.
Money is not an issue for me. The visa issue for me is the same in Ukraine as in Russia. Just that their is so little info on 2nd tier Russia, so I know not what to expect.
All I am trying to discover is whether my romantic vision of 2nd tier Russia is true or just a silly little dream lol.

I understand your concerns.

You're considering spending a lot of money to fly half way around the world from a place you are comfortable and have success in to a place you've never been before. On top of that you realize you will need to be investing time and effort into the task of learning Russian and so of course it's only natural to want some kind of re-assurance that you are doing the right thing and it will all be worth it. I would have the exact same concerns if I was considering somewhere like South America.

Choche it would be grossly unfair of me to give you a rose tinted view of second tier Russia and paint it as something it isn't only for you to get there and realize it wasn't what you were hoping for or expected. Therefore I'll be totally honest.

I can only say what I experienced in second tier Russia personally. On my trip there I dated women much better looking then I get in the UK. I dated women who were younger and more feminine then in the UK,women who were as close to my ideal as it is realistic for me to get. I found that by being foreign people wanted to meet me and get to know me. Women did not throw themselves at me but when I approached women I usually got good responses. I had to make effort but it was rewarded. Nobody cheated me or tried to cheat me. Everyone I met was friendly. I loved the experience and can't wait to get back. There was something magical about being in deepest Russia,way off the beaten track and being surrounded by sweet and friendly Russian girls and getting success.

Now that was my experience as a bald very average looking white guy in his ( then,mid thirties ) who speaks a little Russian. Will my experience be exactly the same for you? I don't know,you may do much better or maybe worse,I can't predict this. I can't promise you that it will live up to your dreams for the place but what I will say is that if I did not believe in the possibilities for all of us out there I would never have suggested the Siberia trip. I genuinely believe we will all have a great time and get a fair share of success.

The choice is entirely yours Choche. I'll just say this,this is once in a lifetime kind of stuff. Unless you go you will always have that nagging feeling of regret and of not knowing what might have been. It's a month or two out of your life but then a lifetime of funny memories of a group of likeminded friend's having a crazy adventure in deepest Siberia. The worst thing that can happen is you don't like the women or the food or the weather etc. but so what? At least you will have done something 99% of people only dream about and you can then go back to SA and appreciate that place more.

I have to say Vorkuta, your experience pretty much matches what I experienced and that was in late 2009. The people were incredibley friendlyI havent been back since but hopefully it hasnt changed. When were you last in second tier Russia?

Post: #10

I was there in 2009 too Partizan. Have been to Moscow a few times since then but never back to the provinces. Will put that right next year. Can't of changed that much surely? In fact with the world economic crises in some ways it might even be better.

Personally speaking I'd say that people who will get the most out of the Russia trip will be those that have a genuine interest in Russia as well as the women. The people who are going purely and utterly for the bangs would probably be better of hitting Poland instead where English is more widely spoken and the women are easier to work out.

Post: #11

(12-01-2012 03:33 PM)Vorkuta Wrote:  I can only say what I experienced in second tier Russia personally. On my trip there I dated women much better looking then I get in the UK. I dated women who were younger and more feminine then in the UK,women who were as close to my ideal as it is realistic for me to get. I found that by being foreign people wanted to meet me and get to know me. Women did not throw themselves at me but when I approached women I usually got good responses. I had to make effort but it was rewarded.

Vorkuta, what's our definition of first and second tier Russia? I get the impression that you want to push into 3rd and 4th tier cities. I don't want to end up in an industrial shithole, regardless of the benefits derived from being one of the only foreigners in the city.

Based solely on the responses I am getting on VK, I think I would do reasonably well in a true 2nd tier city. I am talking about the likes of Samara, Kazan, Rostov-on-Don etc. Of course, we all know that online and real life are completely different beasts, but it's the only data point I have now. So, I am skeptical about the advantages of pushing into anything beyond.

Post: #12

By second tier I mean anything outside of Moscow and Peter. I wouldn't want to be anywhere with less then at least 500,000 people and preferably up near the million mark.

Post: #13

I've traveled extensively through all of the Slavic FSU, and lived for six months nonstop in a second tier Russian city of a million people. I still think Ukraine is better, and that is where I go on vacation now. Kiev is definitely played out, and Western Ukraine is more conservative, but if you are willing to go to the smaller towns of 200,000-300,000 people, the reward is really tremendous. The economics in these places are just terrible, and to be honest 90% of these places being "good" for foreigners is due to women wanting to move up socioeconomically. In Russia even in a tier 2 city there are a lot of rich guys, so you won't stand out in terms of wealth (well, at least you won't be the richest guy in a big club). In Ukraine that's not true, while there are a few rich people, going out and spending even $20-$30 on a Friday night is beyond what guys and gals can afford in these towns. Average wages are still about $200/month, as compared to $500+ in a tier 2 Russian city.

Ukrainians tend to be nicer too, and there's no visa, you are in close proximity to Europe, and travel is cheaper, lodging is cheaper, food is cheaper, etc.

The only advantage to Russia will be the uniqueness of being a foreigner, since out of the way places don't get many foreigners. That's why the guys in the other thread should REALLY be considering towns that are not involved in the oil/gas industry. I mean Ekaterinburg and Novosibirsk definitely have Americans/Western Europeans, several of the big accounting firms have offices there, for example. Much better to pick a place where you would totally stand out.

Post: #14

Was just in Kiev. It was not good *at all* ..... lot of hookers.
It was cold to be fair and maybe most girls were in hiding, but It's say Russia *kills* Kiev. Not sure about other bits of Ukraine though (or the 2nd tier) Russian towns ...... but St. Pete shits all over Kiev that's for sure...

Odessa in summer = good for daygame. Nightgame, not as good.....

S

Post: #15

2nd tier without Russian or solid pipe lining is going to be hard work. Very few speak English. But its unspoiled.

2nd Tier Russia will yield better results than the main Ukraine cities though, as its easier for most Europeans to get to now. Based on a lot of news, and in some cases reports here, it seems as if the Italian, Greek and Turk sex tourists have invaded en masse. Not to mention that it seems like budget holidays and flights from the UK are starting to kick off. So the locals are going to start hating the foreigner soon.

Im back in Kiev for 3 weeks in March from the looks of it. Ill report in if it happens, its been about 4 years so I can see whats changed.

Post: #16

This is something I read somewhere else and I have posted before but I'll re-post it here since it chimes with what Big Dave said:

"Yes I think many people don't consider just how big some of these cities are. A city that sounds "provincial" like Kharkov, Ukraine or Samara, Russia in fact is really huge with many metro stops. To cross those towns by car can take an hour or more. Showing up and trying to figure out "hot spots" or good promenades to walk along can be very hard. It can really be overwhelming in such a place with only a few days to make anything at all happen (even just having a good night out, let alone getting laid).

I do think the bigger provincial cities are "bad" in the sense that they can be overwhelming to a newcomer (there's hardly any tourist information in English in books or online) and hard to coordinate meetups from internet contacts. These kinds of logistics are easy to forget about when you're browsing online profiles all from the same city, but if you show up to a big city with 5 contacts, many might be busy and the others might take 5 hours to clean up and get to where you are.

You're much better off in Moscow / Piter / Kiev / Minsk for that kind of thing. The capitals are like a huge magnet for young girls who have come and are trying to make it studying or working. There are things to see and do and many urban young women, but everything is expensive and a middle class Westerner is not very impressive in terms of money/style/etc. If you have "tight game" though the capitals are the best bet, as many mid-20's girls are used to the cosmopolitan one-night-stand game. But really, you could probably do just as well in NYC or London if that's the case.

That's why I prefer the smaller towns of 50, 000 (absolute minimum) to 500, 000. Guaranteed to have a hotel and apartments for rent (if not online then in the local newspaper) and you can usually walk from the train station to the center and see most of the town in an hour or two. Every town with 50, 000 in Belarus / Ukraine / Russia will have at least one club or late night spot, and a town of 200, 000-300, 000 will have at least 5-10 such spots. But you can ask any taxi driver and he will know all of them, and you can drive to all of them and see which are any good. In the larger cities a taxi drive from one club to another might be 30 minutes and $20. So you can only move once or twice in a night if a club is a "bust."

Of course smaller towns have less anonymity factor, which can work against you as being seen with you can have repercussions for a girl. That's why in general I think the sweet spot is pop. 300, 000 or so, where you can get one night stands (and any town of that size in the FSU will have universities / institutes) and explore the market if that's your thing.

But these smaller provincial cities I find to be the best for what I'm going after, and I've been to many of them. How many people have even heard of Mogilev, Belarus, or Oryol Russia? Towns like that can be gold mines for foreigners looking for freebies/sponsors in a way that Moscow/Piter/Kiev/Minsk can't be anymore. Girls in the capital are interested in foreigners, but from a kind of intellectual cosmopolitan stance: they want to learn about the world and make friends and maybe one day travel. Girls in the provinces will often refuse to believe you're a foreigner at first, and then become wide-eyed when they hear your accent. You'll soon be the hit of the party being introduced to everyone and getting smiles from every girl in eye sight.

It's just an amazing feeling having six 18-20 year olds firing off questions to you about your life, asking if you're married, would you marry a Russian? All while you can buy them all drinks for $2 a cocktail and come across as a real gentlemen since "guys around here never pay for us."

So I guess in summary I would say avoid the big provincial cities (besides the capitals) because they're too big, unless you have time to invest in living there (a month or more) or you can make repeated visits or you can research online in Russian. But if you plop me down in any city of around population 200,000 in the FSU I'll know the layout of the city, good restaurants, and the best club or two within 24 hours of arriving.

Okay sorry for the long aside on thoughts about demographics. I just find more on more we see posts about prices and the atmosphere in Moscow being basically no better than any major Western city. That "special something" that you can get in the FSU as a foreigner is more visible in the provinces, so I think that's the best place to be going if you have the option and are interested in freebies or in sponsoring girls. If salons/strip clubs are your thing then stick to the capital cities."

Post: #17

(12-02-2012 03:44 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  This is something I read somewhere else and I have posted before but I'll re-post it here since it chimes with what Big Dave said:

"Yes I think many people don't consider just how big some of these cities are. A city that sounds "provincial" like Kharkov, Ukraine or Samara, Russia in fact is really huge with many metro stops. To cross those towns by car can take an hour or more. Showing up and trying to figure out "hot spots" or good promenades to walk along can be very hard. It can really be overwhelming in such a place with only a few days to make anything at all happen (even just having a good night out, let alone getting laid).

I do think the bigger provincial cities are "bad" in the sense that they can be overwhelming to a newcomer (there's hardly any tourist information in English in books or online) and hard to coordinate meetups from internet contacts. These kinds of logistics are easy to forget about when you're browsing online profiles all from the same city, but if you show up to a big city with 5 contacts, many might be busy and the others might take 5 hours to clean up and get to where you are.

You're much better off in Moscow / Piter / Kiev / Minsk for that kind of thing. The capitals are like a huge magnet for young girls who have come and are trying to make it studying or working. There are things to see and do and many urban young women, but everything is expensive and a middle class Westerner is not very impressive in terms of money/style/etc. If you have "tight game" though the capitals are the best bet, as many mid-20's girls are used to the cosmopolitan one-night-stand game. But really, you could probably do just as well in NYC or London if that's the case.

That's why I prefer the smaller towns of 50, 000 (absolute minimum) to 500, 000. Guaranteed to have a hotel and apartments for rent (if not online then in the local newspaper) and you can usually walk from the train station to the center and see most of the town in an hour or two. Every town with 50, 000 in Belarus / Ukraine / Russia will have at least one club or late night spot, and a town of 200, 000-300, 000 will have at least 5-10 such spots. But you can ask any taxi driver and he will know all of them, and you can drive to all of them and see which are any good. In the larger cities a taxi drive from one club to another might be 30 minutes and $20. So you can only move once or twice in a night if a club is a "bust."

Of course smaller towns have less anonymity factor, which can work against you as being seen with you can have repercussions for a girl. That's why in general I think the sweet spot is pop. 300, 000 or so, where you can get one night stands (and any town of that size in the FSU will have universities / institutes) and explore the market if that's your thing.

But these smaller provincial cities I find to be the best for what I'm going after, and I've been to many of them. How many people have even heard of Mogilev, Belarus, or Oryol Russia? Towns like that can be gold mines for foreigners looking for freebies/sponsors in a way that Moscow/Piter/Kiev/Minsk can't be anymore. Girls in the capital are interested in foreigners, but from a kind of intellectual cosmopolitan stance: they want to learn about the world and make friends and maybe one day travel. Girls in the provinces will often refuse to believe you're a foreigner at first, and then become wide-eyed when they hear your accent. You'll soon be the hit of the party being introduced to everyone and getting smiles from every girl in eye sight.

It's just an amazing feeling having six 18-20 year olds firing off questions to you about your life, asking if you're married, would you marry a Russian? All while you can buy them all drinks for $2 a cocktail and come across as a real gentlemen since "guys around here never pay for us."

So I guess in summary I would say avoid the big provincial cities (besides the capitals) because they're too big, unless you have time to invest in living there (a month or more) or you can make repeated visits or you can research online in Russian. But if you plop me down in any city of around population 200,000 in the FSU I'll know the layout of the city, good restaurants, and the best club or two within 24 hours of arriving.

Okay sorry for the long aside on thoughts about demographics. I just find more on more we see posts about prices and the atmosphere in Moscow being basically no better than any major Western city. That "special something" that you can get in the FSU as a foreigner is more visible in the provinces, so I think that's the best place to be going if you have the option and are interested in freebies or in sponsoring girls. If salons/strip clubs are your thing then stick to the capital cities."

All well and good, but the problem is, if you go into a city with a population of <500,000 there is a danger of becoming bored as an another poster alluded to in a previous thread. Many of these towns have just a square or two where all the activity is centered around and the chance of anonimity is less should you chose to play the field. I do recall that you were in Ulyanovsk and you got good feedback there. Personally I would prefer a city with a population within the mean 800k to 1.5k as there is more activities and you are still something of a novelty. Thats a classic Tier 2 Russian city. These cities are more cosmopolitan and dont have the 'villager' feel of the smaller towns as the dyevs are more open and friendly. Cities like Ekaterinburg and Novosibirsk do also act as magnet for pulling people in from surrounding towns and villages so you're not losing anything there.

My two kopecks worth.

Post: #18

Agreed. He could get away with being in them because he was passing through but a month or two in a town with 50,000?? I literately have no idea what you would do there to keep occupied in the daytime. I did that in Belarus and the city was incredibly dull in large part because the girls I was seeing were busy in the daytime with work or studies so I had little to do but spend hours in an internet cafe and wondering around town. The town gym was only open three times a week so it was hard to distract myself there ( membership was a pound a month. Got to love Belarus! ).

No,I agree that we need a city but I also am in complete agreement with Big Dave and the poster who wrote the post I linked that we need to get off the track to maximize returns. If we go to Novosibirsk we might as well just hit Moscow and save on journey time. People who have not been to Russia and think Siberia necessarily means poor run down shit holes would be in for a shock in a place like Novosibirsk when they realize that the city and others like it are modern and being foreign means little because the trail has been blazed long,long before. The girl I was with in Abklhazia this summer was telling me about life in Nizhny Novgorod. She spends the weekends meeting friends in McDonalds before hitting the shopping centre to shop at H&M and Zara! Where is the adventure in a place like that?? That's why we need to push on into uncharted territory and find a city that has not been 'done' yet.

Post: #19

(12-02-2012 06:28 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  Agreed. He could get away with being in them because he was passing through but a month or two in a town with 50,000?? I literately have no idea what you would do there to keep occupied in the daytime. I did that in Belarus and the city was incredibly dull in large part because the girls I was seeing were busy in the daytime with work or studies so I had little to do but spend hours in an internet cafe and wondering around town. The town gym was only open three times a week so it was hard to distract myself there ( membership was a pound a month. Got to love Belarus! ).

No,I agree that we need a city but I also am in complete agreement with Big Dave and the poster who wrote the post I linked that we need to get off the track to maximize returns. If we go to Novosibirsk we might as well just hit Moscow and save on journey time. People who have not been to Russia and think Siberia necessarily means poor run down shit holes would be in for a shock in a place like Novosibirsk when they realize that the city and others like it are modern and being foreign means little because the trail has been blazed long,long before. The girl I was with in Abklhazia this summer was telling me about life in Nizhny Novgorod. She spends the weekends meeting friends in McDonalds before hitting the shopping centre to shop at H&M and Zara! Where is the adventure in a place like that?? That's why we need to push on into uncharted territory and find a city that has not been 'done' yet.

I think you could be 20 years too late. What places are you thinking of? There isn't a town in Russia where foreigners have not been to and all have modern amenities/lifestyle, shopping centres coupled with the consumerist culture. The trailblazers went there in the early-mid 1990s. Guys like the banking/finance/con artist expats, e.g. Jeffrey Sachs, Michael Bass Johnny Chen etc. and the lads from the Exile magazine whose journalism is legendary. Those days are long gone however Russia is still virgin territory for those who wish to venture off the beaten track of Moscow and St Pete.

Post: #20

(12-02-2012 06:43 AM)Partizan Wrote:  I think you could be 20 years too late. What places are you thinking of? There isn't a town in Russia where foreigners have not been to and all have modern amenities/lifestyle, shopping centres coupled with the consumerist culture. The trailblazers went there in the early-mid 1990s. Guys like the banking/finance/con artist expats, e.g. Jeffrey Sachs, Michael Bass Johnny Chen etc. and the lads from the Exile magazine whose journalism is legendary. Those days are long gone however Russia is still virgin territory for those who wish to venture off the beaten track of Moscow and St Pete.

I hear you Partizan but I respectfully disagree.

Whilst I concede every town has been visited already by someone from the west,I think there are plenty of towns where foreigners are a rare sight and not full of McDonalds and Zara chains. I could list a few that I predict are like that like Anadyr,Vorkuta,Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky,Sovertsky Gavan,Komsomolsk-Na-Amur etc. The issue is finding one with a large population that would keep a small group of guys entertained. I don't even think you need to hit Siberia to find one. It's remarkable how little distance you need to travel out of Moscow to find towns that are devoid of western consumerist culture and westerners. Admittedly they are easier to find in Belarus then Russia where outside of Minsk I never once met a foreigner but the problem with Belarus ( particularly the East of the country ) is the conservatism of the girls.

I will happily be corrected though by anyone who has been to these cities. It's only a hunch since I haven't been to anywhere in Russia except for Moscow and it's environs,Peter,Ulyanovsk and a quick illegal crossing from Belarus into Russia. Maybe BigDave will chime in with more opinions.

Post: #21

(12-01-2012 03:33 PM)Vorkuta Wrote:  

(12-01-2012 01:28 PM)chochemonger1 Wrote:  Vorkuta my most important needs are great looking girls who have not been corrupted, friendly people who wont try to scam you all the time and exoticness being a plus. That is why 2nd tier Russia sounds great to me and Ukraine doesnt.
Money is not an issue for me. The visa issue for me is the same in Ukraine as in Russia. Just that their is so little info on 2nd tier Russia, so I know not what to expect.
All I am trying to discover is whether my romantic vision of 2nd tier Russia is true or just a silly little dream lol.

I understand your concerns.

You're considering spending a lot of money to fly half way around the world from a place you are comfortable and have success in to a place you've never been before. On top of that you realize you will need to be investing time and effort into the task of learning Russian and so of course it's only natural to want some kind of re-assurance that you are doing the right thing and it will all be worth it. I would have the exact same concerns if I was considering somewhere like South America.

Choche it would be grossly unfair of me to give you a rose tinted view of second tier Russia and paint it as something it isn't only for you to get there and realize it wasn't what you were hoping for or expected. Therefore I'll be totally honest.

I can only say what I experienced in second tier Russia personally. On my trip there I dated women much better looking then I get in the UK. I dated women who were younger and more feminine then in the UK,women who were as close to my ideal as it is realistic for me to get. I found that by being foreign people wanted to meet me and get to know me. Women did not throw themselves at me but when I approached women I usually got good responses. I had to make effort but it was rewarded. Nobody cheated me or tried to cheat me. Everyone I met was friendly. I loved the experience and can't wait to get back. There was something magical about being in deepest Russia,way off the beaten track and being surrounded by sweet and friendly Russian girls and getting success.

Now that was my experience as a bald very average looking white guy in his ( then,mid thirties ) who speaks a little Russian. Will my experience be exactly the same for you? I don't know,you may do much better or maybe worse,I can't predict this. I can't promise you that it will live up to your dreams for the place but what I will say is that if I did not believe in the possibilities for all of us out there I would never have suggested the Siberia trip. I genuinely believe we will all have a great time and get a fair share of success.

The choice is entirely yours Choche. I'll just say this,this is once in a lifetime kind of stuff. Unless you go you will always have that nagging feeling of regret and of not knowing what might have been. It's a month or two out of your life but then a lifetime of funny memories of a group of likeminded friend's having a crazy adventure in deepest Siberia. The worst thing that can happen is you don't like the women or the food or the weather etc. but so what? At least you will have done something 99% of people only dream about and you can then go back to SA and appreciate that place more.

Well put Vorkuta. That is all I needed to hear. Now all I need is to learn Russian as well as I can in 7 months and hope I wont have visa issues from South America.
Siberia seems so pristine compared to the corrupted wasteland that Ukraine appears to be now.
By the way Vorkuta, I look somewhat like Omar Shariff (without the moustache) in Dr Zhivago and my real name is Russian.
Destiny calls.

Post: #22

(12-02-2012 08:17 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  

(12-02-2012 06:43 AM)Partizan Wrote:  I think you could be 20 years too late. What places are you thinking of? There isn't a town in Russia where foreigners have not been to and all have modern amenities/lifestyle, shopping centres coupled with the consumerist culture. The trailblazers went there in the early-mid 1990s. Guys like the banking/finance/con artist expats, e.g. Jeffrey Sachs, Michael Bass Johnny Chen etc. and the lads from the Exile magazine whose journalism is legendary. Those days are long gone however Russia is still virgin territory for those who wish to venture off the beaten track of Moscow and St Pete.

I hear you Partizan but I respectfully disagree.

Whilst I concede every town has been visited already by someone from the west,I think there are plenty of towns where foreigners are a rare sight and not full of McDonalds and Zara chains. I could list a few that I predict are like that like Anadyr,Vorkuta,Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky,Sovertsky Gavan,Komsomolsk-Na-Amur etc. The issue is finding one with a large population that would keep a small group of guys entertained. I don't even think you need to hit Siberia to find one. It's remarkable how little distance you need to travel out of Moscow to find towns that are devoid of western consumerist culture and westerners. Admittedly they are easier to find in Belarus then Russia where outside of Minsk I never once met a foreigner but the problem with Belarus ( particularly the East of the country ) is the conservatism of the girls.

I will happily be corrected though by anyone who has been to these cities. It's only a hunch since I haven't been to anywhere in Russia except for Moscow and it's environs,Peter,Ulyanovsk and a quick illegal crossing from Belarus into Russia. Maybe BigDave will chime in with more opinions.

Vorkuta, I believe your choice of Krasnoyarsk in the other thread is the best so far. Close to Mongolia also....so would be a nice side trip.

Post: #23

(12-02-2012 03:44 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  This is something I read somewhere else and I have posted before but I'll re-post it here since it chimes with what Big Dave said:

"Yes I think many people don't consider just how big some of these cities are. A city that sounds "provincial" like Kharkov, Ukraine or Samara, Russia in fact is really huge with many metro stops. To cross those towns by car can take an hour or more. Showing up and trying to figure out "hot spots" or good promenades to walk along can be very hard. It can really be overwhelming in such a place with only a few days to make anything at all happen (even just having a good night out, let alone getting laid).

I do think the bigger provincial cities are "bad" in the sense that they can be overwhelming to a newcomer (there's hardly any tourist information in English in books or online) and hard to coordinate meetups from internet contacts. These kinds of logistics are easy to forget about when you're browsing online profiles all from the same city, but if you show up to a big city with 5 contacts, many might be busy and the others might take 5 hours to clean up and get to where you are.

You're much better off in Moscow / Piter / Kiev / Minsk for that kind of thing. The capitals are like a huge magnet for young girls who have come and are trying to make it studying or working. There are things to see and do and many urban young women, but everything is expensive and a middle class Westerner is not very impressive in terms of money/style/etc. If you have "tight game" though the capitals are the best bet, as many mid-20's girls are used to the cosmopolitan one-night-stand game. But really, you could probably do just as well in NYC or London if that's the case.

That's why I prefer the smaller towns of 50, 000 (absolute minimum) to 500, 000. Guaranteed to have a hotel and apartments for rent (if not online then in the local newspaper) and you can usually walk from the train station to the center and see most of the town in an hour or two. Every town with 50, 000 in Belarus / Ukraine / Russia will have at least one club or late night spot, and a town of 200, 000-300, 000 will have at least 5-10 such spots. But you can ask any taxi driver and he will know all of them, and you can drive to all of them and see which are any good. In the larger cities a taxi drive from one club to another might be 30 minutes and $20. So you can only move once or twice in a night if a club is a "bust."

Of course smaller towns have less anonymity factor, which can work against you as being seen with you can have repercussions for a girl. That's why in general I think the sweet spot is pop. 300, 000 or so, where you can get one night stands (and any town of that size in the FSU will have universities / institutes) and explore the market if that's your thing.

But these smaller provincial cities I find to be the best for what I'm going after, and I've been to many of them. How many people have even heard of Mogilev, Belarus, or Oryol Russia? Towns like that can be gold mines for foreigners looking for freebies/sponsors in a way that Moscow/Piter/Kiev/Minsk can't be anymore. Girls in the capital are interested in foreigners, but from a kind of intellectual cosmopolitan stance: they want to learn about the world and make friends and maybe one day travel. Girls in the provinces will often refuse to believe you're a foreigner at first, and then become wide-eyed when they hear your accent. You'll soon be the hit of the party being introduced to everyone and getting smiles from every girl in eye sight.

It's just an amazing feeling having six 18-20 year olds firing off questions to you about your life, asking if you're married, would you marry a Russian? All while you can buy them all drinks for $2 a cocktail and come across as a real gentlemen since "guys around here never pay for us."

So I guess in summary I would say avoid the big provincial cities (besides the capitals) because they're too big, unless you have time to invest in living there (a month or more) or you can make repeated visits or you can research online in Russian. But if you plop me down in any city of around population 200,000 in the FSU I'll know the layout of the city, good restaurants, and the best club or two within 24 hours of arriving.

Okay sorry for the long aside on thoughts about demographics. I just find more on more we see posts about prices and the atmosphere in Moscow being basically no better than any major Western city. That "special something" that you can get in the FSU as a foreigner is more visible in the provinces, so I think that's the best place to be going if you have the option and are interested in freebies or in sponsoring girls. If salons/strip clubs are your thing then stick to the capital cities."

If you are looking for a boring time , yes, lol
Small FSU cities are super shit holes. All you will do is make the girls more jaded before they get to the larger cities making all of Ukraine suck.
In small cities under 100k, you will not even have a real night club.it will be a converted bar. It might get crowded one day a week and most girls will be friends with the guys in the place. Guys in small cities will drink more and more likely to cause fights. You will also find that they have see Americans before. Peace corps and missionaries are rampart in small cities.
Now you suggest a half dozen or more guys go there? Have fun.Most likely you will not have any western style supermarkets. There will be no place to pick up. Streets are mostly empty. Day game and night game will be hard. They also will not sleep around because they know everyone in the city.
Finding an apt. should be easy since they all want to make money. The quality of the apt will suck!Very few renovated apts. in small cities. Getting fast speed internet will also be a problem. ukrtelcom is only provider in small cities and takes weeks to hook up apts.
It could work for 1 boring guy who isn't concerned about quality or banging multiple girls. Wife finders. But not for a posse.
I gotta say its one of the worst ideas I ever heard.I say it with love. I can not imagine anything more fun than 6 guys in a soviet era flat,probably broken water heater, dial up speed internet, unless you get mobile phone bandwidth. You will be eating crab salad every night at the local cafe. The way province cities in Ukraine are set up is that unless you are in the oblast capital, the rest are basically over sized villages. Exceptions do exist. Examples are tourist beach resorts or ski resort villages. There are also cities that are suburbs of Kiev , and Dnepropetrovsk that have more amenities. But they do not even have clubs. The people club and party in the big cities. You also will not be welcome. Its basically suburbs where rich families move to, mixed in with the poor who still live there. Can you say "MAFIA".

Post: #24

(12-02-2012 03:18 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  If you are looking for a boring time , yes, lol
Small FSU cities are super shit holes. All you will do is make the girls more jaded before they get to the larger cities making all of Ukraine suck.
In small cities under 100k, you will not even have a real night club.it will be a converted bar. It might get crowded one day a week and most girls will be friends with the guys in the place. Guys in small cities will drink more and more likely to cause fights. You will also find that they have see Americans before. Peace corps and missionaries are rampart in small cities.
Now you suggest a half dozen or more guys go there? Have fun.Most likely you will not have any western style supermarkets. There will be no place to pick up. Streets are mostly empty. Day game and night game will be hard. They also will not sleep around because they know everyone in the city.
Finding an apt. should be easy since they all want to make money. The quality of the apt will suck!Very few renovated apts. in small cities. Getting fast speed internet will also be a problem. ukrtelcom is only provider in small cities and takes weeks to hook up.
It could work for 1 boring guy who isn't concerned about quality or banging multiple girls. Wife finders. But not for a posse.
I gotta say its one of the worst ideas I ever heard.I say it with love. I can not imagine anything more fun than 6 guys in a soviet era flat,probably broken water heater, dial up speed internet, unless you get mobile phone bandwidth. You will be eating crab salad every night at the local cafe. The way province cities in Ukraine are set up is that unless you are in the oblast capital, the rest are basically over sized villages. Exceptions do exist. Examples are tourist beach resorts or ski resort villages. There are also cities that are suburbs of Kiev , and Dnepropetrovsk that have more amenities. But they do not even have clubs. The people club and party
in the big cities. You also will not be welcome. Its basically suburbs where rich families move to, mixed in with the poor who still live there. Can you say "MAFIA".

You are forgetting one very important thing...we are not going to some village in the Ukraine but a city in Russia.

Your statement also seems very Ukraine-centric but you are making statements about the FSU. You say all FSU small towns are shit holes. How many Belarusian ones have you been to? Gomel isn't a shit hole,or Svetlogorsk or Kletsk or Bobruisk. Small towns I visited in Kyrgyzstan were not shit holes. Ulyanovsk isn't a shit hole and there were plenty of decent apartments offered for rent with modern decor and mod cons. You say we will not be welcome. I've never experienced that from Vitebsk to Sukhumi. I've hit clubs on my own in diverse little towns like Zugdidi, Sergeyiv Posad or Narin and had nothing but good responses from everyone.

Whilst I appreciate your input and bow to your superior knowledge of Ukraine second tier towns,don't think your experiences there are a universal for the FSU.

Post: #25

Ukrainian small cities are mostly deserted.Russian and Belarussian small cities are full of people.There is no comparison.