Post: #51

Wondering if someone with experience could give more detail on the more "legitimate" forms of network marketing? Trump seems to be a fan.

Post: #52

If a MLM is truly selling a product, they could just toss it on Amazon

Post: #53

Another good sign- for one of the recent energy health drink things, I told my friend I didn't want to bother selling it, and but I'd be willing to buy some off him. He told me it didn't work like that and he wasn't actually selling it.


Ohhhhhhkay

Post: #54

The way I always looked at it was if the product were of sufficient value-add, it wouldn't need a hyper-complex distribution network.

There are worse things in life, and while some people who really, really, really hustle might make six figures (but maybe they'd make 7 or 8 if they put that hustle into a better value-add entrepreneurship?), something about it just makes my blood boil. I find the cult-like kool-aid drinking to be incredibly off-putting.

Bill Ackman did a major short on Herbalife. I don't know if it will work (it may or may not be a scam, but it could still be a very profitable scam for the corporation as a whole), but my moral compass is hoping it does.

Post: #55

I have a friend that was 2nd in command to some gold related MLM. He made a few mil in two years before the owner ran off to China with most of the cash. Now he's too scared to return to his home country (Singapore) because he recruited family and friends who lost 1.1 mil.

He sold his huge list to another MLM and is slowly paying back his friends and family with the commissions from the new scam.

Interesting guy, has some other crazy stories like working as a translator for the yakuza to help facilitate the smuggling of Chinese prostitutes into Japan.

Post: #56

(03-16-2017 10:02 PM)skptc Wrote:  I have a friend that was 2nd in command to some gold related MLM. He made a few mil in two years before the owner ran off to China with most of the cash. Now he's too scared to return to his home country (Singapore) because he recruited family and friends who lost 1.1 mil.

He sold his huge list to another MLM and is slowly paying back his friends and family with the commissions from the new scam.

Interesting guy, has some other crazy stories like working as a translator for the yakuza to help facilitate the smuggling of Chinese prostitutes into Japan.

How did they lose 1.1M? Investment money...?

Post: #57

I believe Trump got paid to endorse a MLM company. He sure didn't make his wealth through MLM.

Post: #58

my cousin has been involved with amway for a few years, she tried to get me into it a few times. I beleive you have to buy x amount of products per month to maintain some points in your system. She basically thinks she is saving money by having to buy all this stuff. Plus the supps are definetely not helping her as she is overweight.

Post: #59

Nutrilite Double X are a solid multivitamin, and they have a long track record of good growing practices.

I grew up in Amway as my dad really likes the products and he was off and on with the marketing/sales side of it. We met a lot of interesting people.

I can't say I would want to do it, or I think it's a great system. But the hatred for MLMs strikes the same pitch with me as any modern day socialist screeching about business and sales and people getting rich.

Caveat emptor. Best to lose the bitterness towards other successful people and work on being successful in whatever way is palatable to one's self.

Post: #60

The reason MLMs are hated is because people conned into it are *not* successful. A balding dude in a baggy oxford shirt with yellowed armpits driving a 1987 Corolla and going on about the power of positive thinking doesn't inspire bitterness or jealousy, rather pity and revulsion. I have plenty of respect for people who are much wealthier and more successful than me. The problem with MLMs is that they exploit vulnerable people and are functionally secular cults, and are filled mostly with weird or desperate people. I love the free market and despise marxist everything, but MLMs are in the same category as predatory loaners and completely morally dubious.

In the Internet age when one can easily do an online search and find out the truth about any of these companies, I'm stunned that anyone at all still falls for these schemes.

Post: #61

My father fell for Amway (and later Quixtar - but in defense both of those were in the early days of the Internet). Not too long ago he was on the hook for ACN.

I'm an ENTJ, and I don't get easily fooled. He's an ENFP. Not sure if that makes a difference, but he's always been very easily fooled by MLM.

Post: #62

I always thought MLM was pretty garbage. I almost ended up working for cutco as a kid, but then I realized I wasn't getting any salary and figured it wasn't worth it to use my gas to drive around and potentially get clients like that. I'd rather just work at footlocker and work for of that commission scheme.

All the guys, outside of the top guy at the Cutco office didn't seem successful or happy.

Post: #63

Back in Canada my mother and sister have been hustled by recruiters at school and other places. I almost went to a job interview which turned out to be a MLM recruitment meeting. My dad was the only guy who fell for it and wasted a couple months of his life on Amway. He was desperate, just lost his shop, no money to pay mortgage. Both my sister and I were in college. I knew he wasn't the sharpest tool in the box but it made me disappointed. I knew what a pyramid scheme was an illegal scam, what I couldn't understand was how MLM wasn't. It frustrated me. Eventually he was hired as a manager at Walmart and our lives were brought back into financial stability.

Fast forward almost ten years and I'm in Australia. A good number of my staff at the pharmacy are involved in Herbalife. Even in wealthy countries the MLM scam is alive and well. The people falling for it have jobs, husbands that make good coin but their low IQ still makes them easy victims.

My view of it is it brings no value to consumers and it predates on the weakest of minds and poorest. It provides fitness benefits that are imaginary. It brings no benefit to anyone except the top brass and wastes everyone else's precious time. Why it is not classified as a fraud is a mystery that I will look into one of these days when I have the time.

Post: #64

(03-16-2017 07:53 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  Wondering if someone with experience could give more detail on the more "legitimate" forms of network marketing? Trump seems to be a fan.

I guess due to my analytical personality type, I'm perhaps more prone to look into the grand claims of sales pitches which rely heavily on emotion such as MLM or time shares. So I did just that before deciding it's largely BS.

During the MLM pitch this was mentioned, and it conflicted with an earlier version I read on the net, so I spent a couple hours (at work...) trying to determine the veracity of it. While its impossible to prove a negative, this seems to reek of urban legendism. Basically there are multiple versions of the same story (some say it was on Letterman, some say Johnny Carson, the quote has different versions, some say the above, some say "I'd join Amway", and even then, some people say it was said in jest and is taken out of context. There's no firm agreement on the date, and everyone who regurgitates this is always saying it third hand, and with an agenda. For something, that if true and serious would (especially now) add tons of credibility to their pitch, I find it hard to believe that not a single YouTube video, or verifiable piece of evidence has come to light.

Post: #65

(03-18-2017 08:33 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  Back in Canada my mother and sister have been hustled by recruiters at school and other places. I almost went to a job interview which turned out to be a MLM recruitment meeting. My dad was the only guy who fell for it and wasted a couple months of his life on Amway. He was desperate, just lost his shop, no money to pay mortgage. Both my sister and I were in college. I knew he wasn't the sharpest tool in the box but it made me disappointed. I knew what a pyramid scheme was an illegal scam, what I couldn't understand was how MLM wasn't. It frustrated me. Eventually he was hired as a manager at Walmart and our lives were brought back into financial stability.

Fast forward almost ten years and I'm in Australia. A good number of my staff at the pharmacy are involved in Herbalife. Even in wealthy countries the MLM scam is alive and well. The people falling for it have jobs, husbands that make good coin but their low IQ still makes them easy victims.

My view of it is it brings no value to consumers and it predates on the weakest of minds and poorest. It provides fitness benefits that are imaginary. It brings no benefit to anyone except the top brass and wastes everyone else's precious time. Why it is not classified as a fraud is a mystery that I will look into one of these days when I have the time.

This guy on youtube has some good stuff getting the truth out there.


http://ethanvanderbuilt.com/2014/12/08/n...t-century/


People like Kiyosaki, Robbins ect are all horrible scumbags and hucksters.


Also relevant to this post


https://pushingrubberdownhill.com/2017/0...s-episode/

Post: #66

(03-16-2017 07:53 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  Wondering if someone with experience could give more detail on the more "legitimate" forms of network marketing? Trump seems to be a fan.

Trump is better and will always be better than Human Resources Clinton or Bernie please take a shower Sanders. However, not scamming people isn't one of his strengths. The whole thing with his seminars really did screw people preying on their hopes and dreams. He made most of his money through actual Real Estate and helped clean up NY in doing so which means overall his business has been a net positive for society despite some slimy things. However I wouldn't take any advice the Trumpster has on sales pitches ,MLM or general self help.

Post: #67

I'm also disappointed to find that the President himself has endorsed such a scam before. I heard about Trump University but I didn't know he was affiliated with anything MLM. When my liberal friends tell me President Trump is a conman, it's going to be difficult to say otherwise.

Post: #68

The one that's big in my area is World Financial Group. I have so many god damn people add me on LinkedIn and try to get me to meet up with them about their sweet business opportunities. These people are always the weird people you wouldn't have wanted to be friends with in college. Just an observation I've made.

Post: #69

Forget about MLM one second. Forget about online money making schemes. Forget about casino stuff. Focus on this ONE thing: Money is like a pie, and wanting to show people how to make money means there will be less left for you.

Wanting to help a very close friend or family member is fine - less left for you, but you're giving your "share" of the cake to someone you care about. But when you see websites showing you how to make money online with "no effort", or worse, e-mail spammers promoting money making programs, run the other way.

I remember, a few years ago, falling for an eBook supposed to show me how to become a zillionaire in a short timespan. I paid $60, bought the book, and they were talking about affiliate marketing. They were showing you, as an example, how to promote the website I bought the book from, while getting an affiliate cut. In short: Pay me, and I will show you how you can help me make even more money. All those shitty eBooks are leaked somewhere, and nobody cares about anymore.

Now when it comes to MLM. The MLM principle in itself is not a scam - it looks shady, but it is legit if done the right way. It's the shady practices of the companies that killed the industry and drove people away from something that could really be beneficial. Most MLM companies promote a compensation plan where you can a percentage of the sales of your downline reps, etc. but how many reps did actually read the fine print, rather than just looking at the "10 steps" one-sided sheet? How many know that:
1) If any of your downline in any of your branches reaches a higher paying position than you before you do, that branch is dead, and stays dead even if you catch up on him.
2) There is a "renewal" fee every year for you and all of your reps, which goes straight to the company's pockets, and if your downline doesn't renew, that branch is dead.
3) The seminars that you have to pay for are just motivational speaking, there's no real trick here. It's just another way for the company to pocket your money.

I believe that if someone starts a MLM company without the above 3 common scams, and makes it in a legit way so that reps are never conned and always get their fair share according to the compensation plan, there's room for plenty of possibilities and there's room for a renewal of people's trust in the MLM industry. The problem is, we always think that the company is totally legit, until we reach the 1-year mark and wonder why we never made money.

tl;dr. MLM can be very good, but most companies are trying to con reps out of their money.

Post: #70

(03-18-2017 10:19 PM)Rawmeo Wrote:  Forget about MLM one second. Forget about online money making schemes. Forget about casino stuff. Focus on this ONE thing: Money is like a pie, and wanting to show people how to make money means there will be less left for you.

To me this says you don't understand even basics about economics. You for some reason seem to be thinking of a financial transaction as a "win-lose", when the true foundation of economic growth is the win-win.

An example I read is someone who sells farm plows. Buddy sells plows to a farmer, and this allows him to increase his production *beyond the cost of the plow*. The plow seller is better off from selling his wares, and the farmer is better off due to more net food. If he recruits others to sell in different areas, and perhaps charges them because it's such a kickass plow and they're going to make so much money, and they take it seriously and sell a bunch, every farmer they sell to, every salesman and the guy at the top is much better off. That's the essence of MLM, and akin to franchises or salesmen in general.

The issue arises when you start spending all your time recruiting instead of selling. These companies recruit people indiscriminately, and an old maid with 7 cats who spends her days hanging out with her 3 old maid friends and knows nothing about farming has no business selling plows. To target her for your "network" is predatory, and says you care nothing about your product, brand, or who represents you. This is where I think all the issues arise, and some of these programs seem to only have products in the sidelines to avoid it being a bona fide pyramid scheme. If your key interest was moving product, why would you put up barriers in the form of fees to people who want to sell for you?

Post: #71

(10-28-2012 04:26 PM)xsplat Wrote:  After reading the Meyers/Briggs thread, I read up on my type, INTJ, and it says

"Salespeople. INTJs are immune to emotional manipulation and have zero tolerance for lines of bullshit."

And for me it's true. MMM tactics have never appealed to me, and when I read them I'm subconciously doing notation on the ad-copy in case I need to appeal to similar emotions of future buyers. But I've never gone ahead and tried to pull those same strings. I don't know why - something just seems so... sleazy about it. I'd almost rather being involved in honest outright theft.
---snip

I'll have to do a Meyers Brigs test, I don't know what my type is. I wouldn't be surprised if it is this one, I see bullshit instantly and try and warn any friends and family of any cons. (I have a criminal mind as well which helps with this. I try to never act on it.)

The most recent examples off the top of my head:

Friend was all excited about the snapchat IPO, said he was buying in and suggested I do as well. I told him the only way I would do that would be to buy early and sell the same day, most of these internet trend companies are junk. He bought in at 25, which the stock will likely never hit again.

A friend got a letter with a key and was all excited about the car he won, I told him it was a scheme. He later goes to dealership and realizes it was just a key with no car attached.

A friend into making music (something I am too) was all excited about a service that masters a track for $10. He was talking about them listening to the track etc. to which I responded "I guarantee no one will be listening, it's automated" (seeing as how it's at least an hour of work, no one would do it for $10) but said the algorithms might be good. He tried it, long story short I could have done what they did for free in 30 seconds. (A few clicks of the mouse was the extent of the "algorithm.")

Post: #72

I have two anecdotes related to MLM.

My best friend from high-school ran out of student loans and had to drop out of college. He wound up being taken in by another childhood friend who started an MLM company. MLM is bad enough but it was sort of meta-MLM which was selling booklets on how to make money from MLM. So that was the MLM. It was basically useless info. I told him at the time that by doing that he was just taking the easy road out and he wouldn't be able to build a real career, and that's exactly how it played out. He has had a middling career ever since.

The other anecdote is I installed an also-ran dating app on my phone and matched pretty quickly with an HB6/7. Seemed too good to be true and it was. Turns out she is doing some sort of health-drink MLM crap. She had other red-flags besides that, but they probably led her into MLM.

I see MLM as a job with incredibly low status. The only things I can think of that would be worse would be garbage men, janitors, used-car salesmen, working in a check-cashing place, or the various sex-working trades (for women). What bothers me the most about it is the element of cult-like thinking involved. In order for it to make money you have to con others into believing they can make money, and down the pyramid it goes. I can't see how anyone would be willing to do that unless they were a) desperate, b) greedy, c) sociopaths, or some combination of the three.

It's kind of similar I guess to the personality profile of Leo DiCaprio in Wolf of Wall Street.

Post: #73

(03-19-2017 09:16 AM)Seadog Wrote:  

(03-18-2017 10:19 PM)Rawmeo Wrote:  Forget about MLM one second. Forget about online money making schemes. Forget about casino stuff. Focus on this ONE thing: Money is like a pie, and wanting to show people how to make money means there will be less left for you.

To me this says you don't understand even basics about economics. You for some reason seem to be thinking of a financial transaction as a "win-lose", when the true foundation of economic growth is the win-win.

An example I read is someone who sells farm plows. Buddy sells plows to a farmer, and this allows him to increase his production *beyond the cost of the plow*. The plow seller is better off from selling his wares, and the farmer is better off due to more net food. If he recruits others to sell in different areas, and perhaps charges them because it's such a kickass plow and they're going to make so much money, and they take it seriously and sell a bunch, every farmer they sell to, every salesman and the guy at the top is much better off. That's the essence of MLM, and akin to franchises or salesmen in general.

The issue arises when you start spending all your time recruiting instead of selling. These companies recruit people indiscriminately, and an old maid with 7 cats who spends her days hanging out with her 3 old maid friends and knows nothing about farming has no business selling plows. To target her for your "network" is predatory, and says you care nothing about your product, brand, or who represents you. This is where I think all the issues arise, and some of these programs seem to only have products in the sidelines to avoid it being a bona fide pyramid scheme. If your key interest was moving product, why would you put up barriers in the form of fees to people who want to sell for you?

What I mean bu "showing people how to make money" means giving away a technique to someone without getting any benefits for yourself. For example, if you teach people how to do affiliate marketing but do not have your own product, you're showing people how to take your share of the pie.

There MIGHT be a possibility with MLM business, but you said it: People recruit anyone just for the sake of recruiting. I used to recruit people for ACN - and while the company is technically not a pyramid scheme due to the presence of an actual product, we all know that all the money is made by recruiting. People recruited any random loser, who would then pay $500 to join, do nothing, and say that he has been scammed. There's money to be made, as long as you do what you have to do. And as long as you read the fine print.

Post: #74

(03-19-2017 08:38 PM)questor70 Wrote:  I see MLM as a job with incredibly low status. The only things I can think of that would be worse would be garbage men, janitors, used-car salesmen, working in a check-cashing place, or the various sex-working trades (for women).

Hey, nothing against garbage men. In a healthy society, it's a normal and respected blue collar job.
They help to keep urban civilization running, look what happens when they are striking, underfunded or understaffed.
By doing their job, they improve everyone's life.
Can't say the same about MLM.

Post: #75

^ You'd be surprised at how much money they can make - especially the garbage men who know what to pick and where to take it. I read some interview online of some garbage people racking in nearly $80,000 a year with this job.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/24/news/eco...-high-pay/

Of course not all of them make that - here in Bangkok it's a very low paying job, and due to the smell of garbage being cooked by the sun, only smokers can bear the smell.