Post: #76

(03-04-2015 08:00 PM)RealityCheck Wrote:  kaotic, I see that we simply disagree on some fundamental things. I'll try to address your major points evenhandedly rather than get into a tit-for-tat heated debate.

You think that Iran would never hand over a nuke to Hezbollah, but I think they would. I presented my arguments as to why, obviously you disagree with them.

In regards to you claiming that I'm blowing anti-semitism out of proportion, I tried to make clear that I don't think criticizing Israel is anti-semitic in and of itself. I also don't mean to say that you are hiding something, and that among your closest friends you would readily say that you hate Jews, but here you are censoring yourself.

I just don't see all that hard work, sanctions, inspectors, etc. all to make a bomb, just simply being handed off is all. Is it possible ? It could be likely, but we don't know. I saw your points - I do understand them.

How am I censoring myself ?

One of my good friends since high school is from Israel, his parents were in the IDF as well.

Pretty clear I don't hate jews or Isreal. They have the absolute right to defend themselves, problem is we're constantly ranting about the evil countries surrounding Isreal.

I'm annoyed that Bibi said all the in OUR country in front of our congress to say what he had to. It's not like he hasn't talked about the bomb before.

[/quote]I'll reiterate part of what I said: Criticizing Israel, a democratic country, for being concerned about its survival in the face of a radical Islamic dictatorship that has sworn to destroy it trying to get its hands on nuclear weapons is anti-semitism in my eyes. I think that Israel is held to an absurd, unmeetable standard that no other country is held to, and all of this in the face of existential threats. [/quote]

Yes this is fair to say, I can agree with this. However, I think it should be held to a high standard, just like the states should be.

Quote:So how does this happen that I don't think you're consciously being anti-semitic, but I think that you are expressing anti-semitic views? I think that in many parts of the western world there is a societal reinforcement that is so subtle that most don't even realize it's there, even if they're affected by it. It results in holding Israel to a ridiculous standard. I call it anti-semitism. Perhaps it's caused by the "useful idiot" phenomenon. I'm not calling you an idiot, that's just the name of the expression. It's a "term for people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose goals they are not fully aware of, and who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause."

High standards are anti-semitic ? Why shouldn't they be held to high standards ? What should they be viewed as besides a democracy struggling for it's survival ?

Quote:As for your sucker punch at the end about Palestinian suffering, that's a legitimate topic of conversation and I could write the Israeli side of the argument. I call it a sucker punch though because it's not the subject of this thread nor of what I was talking about. I'll just say that my heart goes out to any innocent human being that suffers, but the suffering of the Palestinians is not Israel's fault. I could write a lengthy explanation as to why, but I feel like it would derail the thread. PM if you like.

It would derail this thread and the topic has been discussed on here before.[/quote]

Post: #77

(03-04-2015 08:14 PM)kaotic Wrote:  How am I censoring myself ?

Rereading my post, I see that maybe my wording there was unclear. What I meant is that I don't think you're censoring yourself.

kaotic Wrote:High standards are anti-semitic ? Why shouldn't they be held to high standards ? What should they be viewed as besides a democracy struggling for it's survival ?

Of course countries, especially democracies, should be held to a high standard. What I mean to say is that I think Israel is held to a higher standard than everyone else. Whatever the "standard" is, it always seems that Israel is held to a much more rigorous standard that is ridiculous in its application. On top of that it faces overwhelming security threats at all time, has for all of its history, but has still tried to behave in the way befitting of a liberal democracy, which often means fighting with one hand behind your back.

kaotic Wrote:I'm annoyed that Bibi said all the in OUR country in front of our congress to say what he had to. It's not like he hasn't talked about the bomb before.

As for Bibi saying what he said in front of Congress, well, he was invited. If it wasn't his place to do that, then it's either John Boehner, the American constitution, or the enforcement of the constitution, that needs to be scrutinized. The Republicans knew exactly what he was going to talk about when they invited him, so why criticize Bibi for doing what he was invited to do?

Post: #78

After the welcome he got in congress, do you Americans really think you have a choice? He got the whole congress in his pocket. You better prepare for another war and line-up. Seriously, this visit of him was just to test the waters. There is a minority who is against him but obviously a silent majority who is with Netanyahu.

Post: #79

I am not a fan of Israel for the most part. I find that they're so dismissive of how we conduct our government, but always want us to back them up when shit hits the fan. It's one of those tenuous alliances where you know they really don't like us but they need us and we like having them on the ground in that area. I do have respect for their military; they're pretty bad ass at holding it down there, but they definitely need us more and we both know it.

Post: #80

(03-04-2015 08:40 PM)turuk Wrote:  After the welcome he got in congress, do you Americans really think you have a choice? He got the whole congress in his pocket.

There were over 50 Democrats missing from the speech.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/26/politics/d...whip-list/

Quote:At least 50 Democratic House members and eight senators who caucus with the Democrats said in recent weeks they wouldn't attend the speech, many in protest to a move that they say is an affront to the president.

We will see how war-weary the American public really is coming up in 2016. I honestly think that Jeb Bush will win the GOP nomination and the election and we will head into war with Iran. As much as the Manosphere hates Hillary Clinton, might she be the lesser of the two evils? People quickly forget the massive hole that was dug prior to Obama's election was due to our two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(03-04-2015 08:57 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I am not a fan of Israel for the most part. I find that they're so dismissive of how we conduct our government, but always want us to back them up when shit hits the fan. It's one of those tenuous alliances where you know they really don't like us but they need us and we like having them on the ground in that area. I do have respect for their military; they're pretty bad ass at holding it down there, but they definitely need us more and we both know it.

The Israel lobby gives an insane amount of money to our Congress. They will gladly throw the American people under the bus for a buck.

Post: #81

Wow. That was embarrassing to watch.

That was a disgusting display of grovelling by politicians. They were clapping after almost every sentence. Trained dogs drooling at the sound of the bell.

Post: #82

(03-04-2015 09:38 PM)Darius Wrote:  Wow. That was embarrassing to watch.

That was a disgusting display of grovelling by politicians. They were clapping after almost every sentence. Trained dogs drooling at the sound of the bell.

He was visiting his vassal state. That is why.

Post: #83

(03-04-2015 09:07 PM)MdWanderer Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 08:40 PM)turuk Wrote:  After the welcome he got in congress, do you Americans really think you have a choice? He got the whole congress in his pocket.

There were over 50 Democrats missing from the speech.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/26/politics/d...whip-list/

Quote:At least 50 Democratic House members and eight senators who caucus with the Democrats said in recent weeks they wouldn't attend the speech, many in protest to a move that they say is an affront to the president.

We will see how war-weary the American public really is coming up in 2016. I honestly think that Jeb Bush will win the GOP nomination and the election and we will head into war with Iran. As much as the Manosphere hates Hillary Clinton, might she be the lesser of the two evils? People quickly forget the massive hole that was dug prior to Obama's election was due to our two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(03-04-2015 08:57 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I am not a fan of Israel for the most part. I find that they're so dismissive of how we conduct our government, but always want us to back them up when shit hits the fan. It's one of those tenuous alliances where you know they really don't like us but they need us and we like having them on the ground in that area. I do have respect for their military; they're pretty bad ass at holding it down there, but they definitely need us more and we both know it.

The Israel lobby gives an insane amount of money to our Congress. They will gladly throw the American people under the bus for a buck.

50? Is that a lot?

Post: #84

The relationship between Israel and the U.S. is like the one between a hot girl and her beta orbiter. We shower the hot girl with gifts and money, tell her how beautiful and smart she is, then act surprised when she doesn't sleep with us.

Israel is a remora on the American body politic. We give them foreign aid, cover their asses in the U.N. and our homegrown fatass evangelical Christians claim that supporting them is a God-given duty, but what has Israel done for us? Nothing.

How many troops did Israel send to Iraq and Afghanistan? Zero.

When the military asked the IDF to share intel when we invaded Iraq, the Israelis told them to fuck off.

Israelis have the chutzpah to demand the release of Jonathan Pollard, a traitorous weasel who sold classified intel to their government. They should be happy we didn't send him to the electric chair like we did the Rosenbergs.

The IDF murdered American sailors in their attack on the Liberty in 1967. The same chickenhawks who downplay that incident would be screaming bloody murder if the Russians, Chinese or any other nation opened fire on an American vessel.

American Jews like Rahm Emanuel are allowed to serve in the IDF without anyone blinking an eye. Remember that the next an empty suit politician bleats about stripping citizenship from anyone who joins ISIS.

And now we have the Israeli prime minister turkey-slapping our government for not sending more of our boys to die in wars that benefit him. What a complete disgrace.

Here's my proposal: let the Israelis fight their own wars for once. Let them deal with their own problems. No more aid, no more involvement in the peace process. If they can't handle it, tough; it's no more America's concern then whether the MILF takes over the entire southern Philippines, or the outcome of any other ethnic conflict on the other side of the world.

And before the usual suspects pounce, I don't care about the Palestinians (and frankly, neither does anyone else, including the world leaders who purport to support them). I actually kind of like Israel as a country, and I admire Netanyahu for actually defending his country's interests instead of being a flaccid loser like Obama.

Also, I don't blame the Israelis themselves so much. If someone is dumb enough to give you free stuff and lavish you with praise, you'd be dumb if you didn't take it. The reason the Israeli government acts so entitled and contemptuous towards us is because we let them, and by "we" I mean both politicians owned by the Israeli lobby (read: all of them) and moronic Dispensationalist evangelical Christian sheeple.

If we stop giving free stuff to the hot girl in the hopes she'll sleep with us, she just might stop being a bitch.

Post: #85

I always love a Matt Forney post.

I bet there are other reasons behind the scenes though, probably the same reasons that Western troops are/were in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Post: #86

(03-05-2015 12:14 AM)Matt Forney Wrote:  I don't care about the Palestinians

I assure you if you ever visit the Gaza Strip and see the limbo these people are in and understand that despite the fact that over 80 percent of the UN supports the creation of Palestine as an independent nation but it looks impossible because we use our veto your viewpoint will change.

The demonization of Iran is a joke. When they elect a progressive leader who believes in democracy we collude with the M16 to overthrow him and then label them a rogue state. It is actions like these that have led to the term : Western Hypocrisy.

Anyone believing that America acts as world police out of noble altruism needs their head checked. We have acted out of goodwill in certain instances like Kosovo but for the most part our foreign policy and actions are self-serving , unethical and immoral. This needs to stop especially considering the re-balance of political power that is happening with the rise of the emerging world.

Finally , I have to agree with Kaotic. Hezbollah had strategic use to Iran and there is a corollory to Pakistan home growing a few terrorist organizations. There is zero chance they will hand over their nukes to them under any circumstances.

Trying to stop Iran from getting nukes is a futile exercise , we can delay the timelines but it will happen. The Indians , Israelis and Pakistanis displayed their right as sovereign independent nations to allocate resources to develop the bomb despite the fact that it broke 'international' read : Western laws.

Iran will get the nuke and Obama's policy of engaging is spot on.

Post: #87

(03-04-2015 07:25 PM)robreke Wrote:  Israel having nukes can't be compared to the potential threat of a nuclear Iran. Sure, Iran may want nukes just to keep people from fucking with them. That is a reasonable assumption. However, that's all it is. There's no way to know for sure.

And there is a way to know for sure Israel won't use them and USA won't use them ? Well, wander no more, USA already did. And during Korean war it was on a verge of unleashing a nuclear holocaust on remainder of east Asia, was it no for one sane individual who said that's not how it works.

Quote:If anyone knows the history of this country, Iran, you'd realize that the chance of Iran to do something psychotic with nukes....like passing them clandestinely along to Hamas for example....is way higher on the probability scale than a country like say, the US, or India or Israel of doing something psychotic with nukes.

Something psychotic like using them ? That's not psychotic. That's what weapons are for. To be used on an enemy.

The only real agenda behind nuclear cans and nuclear can-nots is jealous protection of their status by world powers. I don't believe uncle Sam on the trigger more than i do Ayatollah.

Passing nuclear weapons to terrorists, you do realize it exists only in Hollywood films ?

Quote:Why is this a reasonable assumption? Because Iran has a long consistent track record of funding, supporting and exporting terrorism.

So do Israel and US.

Quote:They've proven they will supply arms and WEAPONS to terrorists who have done nothing more than KILL people in many many countries the past few decades. This, coupled with the fact that they explicitly state in , I think it's their constitution, that one of their tenets is the annihilation of Israel.

Israel is at this point closer to annihilating Iran than other way round.

Quote:Iran is literally an exporter of terrorism.

So are US and Israel

Quote:Iran exports terrorism.

No, Iran exports oil.

Post: #88

Iran has been months away from having the bomb for 20-some years now. Bunch of chicken hawks wanting to send kids to die for a pointless war.

Has anyone at the upper levels of government thought that maybe if we treated others less like children, they might behave properly?

Further, I completely understand why Iranians would distrust or dislike us. I suppose removing a popularly elected official and propping up an awful dictator could do that.

As far as being exporters of terrorism, they're amateurs compared to America.

Post: #89

(03-03-2015 11:00 PM)robreke Wrote:  As for Israel's "illegal nuclear program" I'm not sure what that means.

Who cares if Israel has nukes? They're not the lunatics in this discussion.

Has Israel kidnapped 100 American hostages and held them for 400 days? Has Israel preached and taught in their schools that all people of a certain race/religion (jews) should be murdered and annihilated and their skins used for various morbid things? Has Israel funded terrorists for decades who have blown up, beheaded, shot to death and in other ways killed scores of people, including many Americans?

No, Israel hasn't. But Iran has. Who would a reasonable person assume would be a greater threat with nuclear weapons?

Which one of these guys do you think has the more appropriate life experience in dealing with a terrorist backed state? :

I see you buy into the current narrative, hook, line, and sinker.

G

Post: #90

America's totally irrational support for Israel is a big reason why that region is so shitty and also a threat to the West. Read George Washington's Farewell Address and you'll see how he predicted this sort of happenstance to the letter all the way back in 1796.

I also can't stand how Israel and its supporters are complete hypocrites. Israel deported all its illegal African immigrants last year, rounding them up in camps in the process. No one gave a shit about that. Not one word.

It is America's stated policy to keep Israel as a "Jewish State." Which I'm fine with, everyone has a right to their identity and heritage.

But if America or Europe tries to do the same, those same supporters will cry raaaaciiisssmmmmmmm and guilt us into giving away ours.

(03-04-2015 12:16 PM)kaotic Wrote:  Always playing the victim card, oh woe is us and our peoples. DON'T FORGET THE HOLOCAUST GUYS ! DID WE MENTION THAT !?

That was really the final thing that did it for me. Anyone using the Holocaust to score political points is not someone to be trusted.

I'm glad that Bibi recognizes that Islam is a threat, but he and Israel's supporters seem to have no problem with importing it into the West. Hypocritical liars, the lot of them.

Post: #91

(03-04-2015 09:45 PM)turuk Wrote:  50? Is that a lot?

No its not a lot and I agree with you, I was just trying to highlight that if anybody will stand up to Israel, it's the Democrats. Israel has a right to exist but we should not be at their beck and call. The so called "Most Powerful Nation On Earth" is nothing but a bitch for Israel and Mexico.

Post: #92

Once upon a time there was a group of people who believed their race was superior to all others. The literature and propaganda said that people of other races were inferior to them and on the same level as cattle. They even tried to set up a country for their people only where they could oppress and even sterilize minorities. They engaged in horrid acts of violence against civilians, murdering innocents left and right.

The country is still around to today... it's called Israel.

Post: #93

I honestly found it disgusting how the congress applauded Netanyahu like he was Stalin at a speech.

How can anyone be in doubt that jews own the US?

Personally, I find it an affront that jews with dual citizenship such as Rahm Emmanuel can serve in the government and that jews in general shouldn't hold positions which can influence foreign policy. There is clearly a problem of loyalty.

Also laughed at the predictable over the top IDF posts in this thread and we even got a few accusations of anti-semmistism.

Post: #94

(03-05-2015 09:29 AM)Libertas Wrote:  America's totally irrational support for Israel is a big reason why that region is so shitty and also a threat to the West. Read George Washington's Farewell Address and you'll see how he predicted this sort of happenstance to the letter all the way back in 1796.

I also can't stand how Israel and its supporters are complete hypocrites. Israel deported all its illegal African immigrants last year, rounding them up in camps in the process. No one gave a shit about that. Not one word.

It is America's stated policy to keep Israel as a "Jewish State." Which I'm fine with, everyone has a right to their identity and heritage.

But if America or Europe tries to do the same, those same supporters will cry raaaaciiisssmmmmmmm and guilt us into giving away ours.

(03-04-2015 12:16 PM)kaotic Wrote:  Always playing the victim card, oh woe is us and our peoples. DON'T FORGET THE HOLOCAUST GUYS ! DID WE MENTION THAT !?

That was really the final thing that did it for me. Anyone using the Holocaust to score political points is not someone to be trusted.

I'm glad that Bibi recognizes that Islam is a threat, but he and Israel's supporters seem to have no problem with importing it into the West. Hypocritical liars, the lot of them.

Is Israel responsible for the liberal rot in America? Although, I get it that the scumbag Rahm Emanuel was a member of the IDF. They appear to be following conservative principles, such as defending yourself instead of coming up with liberal excuses for the guys who are trying to kill you. And the academic left that supports immigration has become the biggest Israel haters. Are Israel supporters the ones who are supporting leftism in America?

One thing that interests me about Israel is that they are surrounded by countries that hate them. This is actually a great situation to be in. In order to survive, their population has to be on its game like Sparta, which is still the benchmark of the ideal society. It keeps the population smart and lean and the pussies eventually leave. The problem with America is that it is too rich and protected so the population escapes into materialism and entertainment. The wealth of a nation is its population. Look at Germany and Japan. At the end of World War II they were bombed to rubble, but they were able to recover and build prosperous nations. In contrast, the Arab world receives trillions of dollars in oil revenue but the bulk of the population remains in poverty. This shows that money is not wealth. Israel doesn't have oil revenue, but they have lots of people who can make things that work.

I actually am open minded on this subject and don't claim to have the answers.

Post: #95

(03-05-2015 09:08 AM)Geomann180 Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 11:00 PM)robreke Wrote:  As for Israel's "illegal nuclear program" I'm not sure what that means.

Who cares if Israel has nukes? They're not the lunatics in this discussion.

Has Israel kidnapped 100 American hostages and held them for 400 days? Has Israel preached and taught in their schools that all people of a certain race/religion (jews) should be murdered and annihilated and their skins used for various morbid things? Has Israel funded terrorists for decades who have blown up, beheaded, shot to death and in other ways killed scores of people, including many Americans?

No, Israel hasn't. But Iran has. Who would a reasonable person assume would be a greater threat with nuclear weapons?

Which one of these guys do you think has the more appropriate life experience in dealing with a terrorist backed state? :

I see you buy into the current narrative, hook, line, and sinker.

G

Not the "current" narrative. It's the "longstanding established" history I buy.

It's kind of like you've got a violent person who has a history of battery with a murder here and there. We call that person a criminal and felon. What laws do we impose on such people?

For one, they're not allowed to own firearms. They're not "normal" Therefore, it makes sense from a legal standpoint that such a person shouldn't be allowed to own firearms.

Well, same with Iran and their active sanctioning of terrorism....it's akin to an individual criminal with a history of violence. Iran shouldn't be allowed to own "firearms" in this case nukes because they've got a longstanding history anyone can look up.

If you're calling that longstanding history some kind of current narrative....like it's all been smoke and mirrors and propaganda and didn't really happen....I can't help you there.

Now, I know the line on how the US has funded wars, bloodshed and colonialism and we're "terrorists" just like Iran and their ilk. And to some extent I agree. The USA has certainly not done everything right including the invasion of Iraq which at this point looks like a complete waste. But we're not intentional terrorists. We don't target civilians just living their life. Iran has an ESTABLISHED HISTORY OF DOING THIS. Who can be certain they wouldn't do it with nukes. Is it worth the gamble given the EVIDENCE OF HISTORY?

In addition, the US or Israel or any "normal" country doesn't go around blowing up people in coffeeshops, hotels on vacation or randomly kidnapping people and cutting their heads off. We are much more normal (for lack of a better word) than kooks who do the above mentioned.

These terrorists that Iran has supported are unpredictable and SPECIFICALLY TARGET civilians and innocent people. They have been doing this since the late 70's.

The US and Israel just doesn't do these types of things intentionally.

Post: #96

(03-05-2015 10:19 AM)Krusyos Wrote:  Once upon a time there was a group of people who believed their race was superior to all others. The literature and propaganda said that people of other races were inferior to them and on the same level as cattle. They even tried to set up a country for their people only where they could oppress and even sterilize minorities. They engaged in horrid acts of violence against civilians, murdering innocents left and right.

The country is still around to today... it's called Israel.

Cute. Did you come across that while lurking Stormfront?

Post: #97

Ok guys, (and kaotic) I am here to give my thoughts even though it sounds like many of you jackals either won't care, or will attempt to tear me to pieces with information that is quite honestly in my well educated (on the subject) opinion backwards or irrelevant.

1. I would like to remind all of you who respond to my post and engage me in debate the subject of the thread is:
Bibi Netanyahu addresses congress today
So do not bring up Palestinians, refugees, internal Israeli subjects that are off topic, your stupidity etc. Also please think about what you write before writing it because I have read some pretty moronic things in this thread. For example some of you don't seem to realise the last time the U.S. declared war was WW2 or those of you who think rahmemanuel served in the IDF he volunteered in a 2 week program (Sar'el) that anyone can do where you basically paint barracks and cook food, people who serve in this program are not in any way qualified to make official statements.

Many of you seem to need reminding that we are not talking about the cold war and think that Iran wants nuclear power to play in the big league. While that is possible one cannot ignore the extreme ideology that drives the Iranian leadership. During the cold war by the way the biggest fear of the U.S. and U.S.S.R. was that some nut job would decide to push the button causing a nuclear catastrophe (Watch Dr. Strangelove). Well I should not have to convince any reasonable person that one of such people could very well exist in Iran and it only takes one finger, one, button, one launch intentional, accidental, unauthorised to bring the world to a nuclear war. This is part of the logic of non proliferation in order to keep stability, a bi-polar system is more stable than a multi-polar. (I am not claiming nukes don't play part in politics, deterrence etc.) By the way most probably don't realise how close the world was to nuclear war during the cold war, quick example U.S. and NATO used to hold an annual exercise, (look up Able Archer 83) The Soviets misinterpreted many signs by the U.S. thinking they were preparing to launch an attack and on several occasions nearly launched a pr-emptive strike or even nearly launched an attack after a satellite failure led them to falsely detect a launch. This case study led many in the field to believe in god because the fact is the actions of a select few individuals saved the world from nuclear war.


Now that we see a little background to the dangers of nuclear power, Iran is run by religious fanatics who don't share the same idea of what is rational with the rest of us, well some of us anyway. Does that mean they for sure will use nuclear weapons no, BUT, it is a major risk, a risk that cannot be avoided once they are armed with the most destructive weaponry known to man. By the way food for thought, in the war with Iraq during the 80s the Iranians sent thousands of children to run through mine fields clearing the way for Iranian soldiers. These children died and were coerced into doing this by being told they would be received in Jana (paradise). The same government is still in power today and seeks nuclear weapons.

So, Israel a tiny nation with a population smaller than New York City has been explicitly threatened by this same Iranian government and even though it was a threat in words, they show capabilities through parades, and military tests, and show resolve and willingness to use violence by supporting militant groups and terrorists throughout the region and the world. SO OF COURSE ISRAEL MUST TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY. Additionally Bibi did not suggest military action, he called for the continued sanctions and perhaps tougher diplomatic actions against Iran. The only thing I can think of that could have been interpreted as seeming to point to military action was when he said if need be Israel will stand alone.

@kaotic, please do not respond to this until you pick up a book, your having an Israeli friend does not qualify you to talk about such subjects with your arrogant confidence and even being Israeli does not qualify one to discuss the matter either. Your comparison of the IDF to the SS is one of the most disgusting things I have ever read the IDF is not lining women and children up against a wall and putting a bullet in their head as they beg for their lives or in some cases their death which could not come soon enough to their horrible lives. (Shame on tuthmosis for not banning you for such a comment). Quite honestly much of what you said is either irrelevant or about as useful as that case of herpes you contracted from that busted bitch you raw dogged.
Oh and its funny you talked about Palestinians a term not used until 1918 at the San Remo conference also the former national security advisor to Bibi Netanyahu, Uzi Arad is technically an internally displaced Palestinian and is under the technicalities of the right of return should be compensated along with many other Jews who lived in that area before Israel was established. Food for thought before you bark up tree of the Palestinian debate.
(Moderators I should warn you it would be a fruitless effort to ban me for this, I know it seems a bit harsh but correct information should be rewarded on your forum not punished and I have the capability to return)
"Give me liberty or give me death" Patrick Henry

Post: #98

(03-05-2015 11:46 AM)Sherman Wrote:  Is Israel responsible for the liberal rot in America?

Israel and more importantly, its supporters in the US, are often the perfect microcosm of "leftism for thee but not for me."

We love multiculturalism - but not in our country!

We support feminism - but not in our country!

Politicized homosexuality for you - but not in our country!

Basically, Israel gets to have all the benefits of a free society with social standards and cohesion, but if you try to have the same in your own country, you're whatever SJW buzzword under the sun.

Israel's geopolitical situation probably has something (or maybe a lot) to do with this as you said, but the same financial, and yes, Jewish interests that support Israel support leftism in our own country. Case in point, Chuck Schumer who's pushing for legalizing illegals and more 3rd world immigration but obviously does not give one flying fuck about what Israel did with its illegal African population last year.

And the worst part of all of this is that you get accused of anti-semitism merely for pointing it out. LET'S NOT FORGET THE HOLOCAUST GUYS!

To be clear, I'm not saying that all Jews or more broadly all supporters of Israel are like this (is that my sufficient leftist escape pass?), but this is a pretty strong undercurrent among them.

Post: #99

(03-05-2015 07:21 AM)kevinreid Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 12:14 AM)Matt Forney Wrote:  I don't care about the Palestinians

I assure you if you ever visit the Gaza Strip and see the limbo these people are in and understand that despite the fact that over 80 percent of the UN supports the creation of Palestine as an independent nation but it looks impossible because we use our veto your viewpoint will change.

The demonization of Iran is a joke. When they elect a progressive leader who believes in democracy we collude with the M16 to overthrow him and then label them a rogue state. It is actions like these that have led to the term : Western Hypocrisy.

Anyone believing that America acts as world police out of noble altruism needs their head checked. We have acted out of goodwill in certain instances like Kosovo but for the most part our foreign policy and actions are self-serving , unethical and immoral. This needs to stop especially considering the re-balance of political power that is happening with the rise of the emerging world.

Finally , I have to agree with Kaotic. Hezbollah had strategic use to Iran and there is a corollory to Pakistan home growing a few terrorist organizations. There is zero chance they will hand over their nukes to them under any circumstances.

Trying to stop Iran from getting nukes is a futile exercise , we can delay the timelines but it will happen. The Indians , Israelis and Pakistanis displayed their right as sovereign independent nations to allocate resources to develop the bomb despite the fact that it broke 'international' read : Western laws.

Iran will get the nuke and Obama's policy of engaging is spot on.

When Bill Clinton had Yasser Arafat and the Israeli prime minister at a peace conference in the 90s, the Palestinians were offered EVERYTHING they were looking for. The Israeli PM and Clinton laid everything out that Yasser and the Palestianians were asking for at the time ( settlements, land, etc )

Arafat refused. Clinton was mystified. It is well documented.

The Leaders of these states are akin to Al Sharpton. Sharpton doesn't want a world without racism or racial oppression even though that seems to be what he campaigns for. Why the hypocrisy?

Because it is his bread and butter. His source of wealth and power. He preaches all the injustices but in his heart doesn't want it to end.

Likewise, when Arafat, a huge terrorist in his own right, was offered everything that he and the Palestinians seemingly wanted, he refused because it would have marginalized his power and influence.

Israel was wiling to concede for peace.

So, the fact that the people in Gaza are living in limbo is not Israel's fault. It's their leaders' faults. These people don't want peace. They don't want to just be left alone. They're different. They want conflict and their power. It's all they know.

Post: #100

(03-05-2015 12:10 PM)Libertas Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 11:46 AM)Sherman Wrote:  Is Israel responsible for the liberal rot in America?

Israel and more importantly, its supporters in the US, are often the perfect microcosm of "leftism for thee but not for me."

We love multiculturalism - but not in our country!

We support feminism - but not in our country!

Politicized homosexuality for you - but not in our country!

Basically, Israel gets to have all the benefits of a free society with social standards and cohesion, but if you try to have the same in your own country, you're whatever SJW buzzword under the sun.

And how is the social situation in our country Israel's fault? The beginning of American decline predates Israel by decades. This kind of nonsense is the reason why I roll my eyes when people who I side with on most issues go off the rails about the Jews.

Quote:Israel's geopolitical situation probably has something (or maybe a lot) to do with this as you said, but the same financial, and yes, Jewish interests that support Israel support leftism in our own country. Case in point, Chuck Schumer who's pushing for legalizing illegals and more 3rd world immigration but obviously does not give one flying fuck about what Israel did with its illegal African population last year.

Yeah, AIPAC is one giant bastion of liberalism.

Quote:And the worst part of all of this is that you get accused of anti-semitism merely for pointing it out. LET'S NOT FORGET THE HOLOCAUST GUYS!

To be clear, I'm not saying that all Jews or more broadly all supporters of Israel are like this (is that my sufficient leftist escape pass?), but this is a pretty strong undercurrent among them.

A modern American leftist Jew has about as much in common with Israel as I do with Italy. Jack shit besides a bit of blood.