Post: #26

(03-04-2015 06:54 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 10:54 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  Even if Iran does ever get nukes, can it use them? If it ever tried nuking Israel it would destroy the Dome of The Rock (one of the holiest sites in Islam) and kill the Palestinians who it purports to support! If it tried nuking Saudi Arabia, it would destroy Mecca, the holiest site in Islam!

Nukes are an insurance against invasion. They are made for deterrence, not really to be used. They could only be used if the country is facing threat of extinction. That´s why Isreal has them and that´s why Iran wants them. Let´s not forget that Iran is quite paranoid. They have pretty much been surrounded by Sunni enemies until Sadam was removed. But the Saudi Leadership hates Iran and will do anything it can, to destabilize the country.

The hypocrisy of the Israelis who themselves have nukes is amazing. But I guess the Iranians are the "bad guys". Guess which country is the most destabilizing force in the ME? Hint: It´s not Iran.

Where I am(Ireland), I would say 90% of people are pro-Palestinian and not too fond of Israel, but this is largely I think due to the partisan media which promote this narrative, which most people accept with an almost bovine ignorance of the situation.
I take your point about nuclear weapons being largely there as a deterrent, however nuclear weapons in the hands of Islamists is another thing.
In the short term, it's Israel and to an extent Saudi who are very concerned about this.
However I think anyone who is concerned about the spread of the extreme idelogies behind fundamental Islam should be wary of the likes of Iran and other Islamic countries with nuclear capabilities.

Post: #27

From what I've been reading over the last few weeks, there seems to be some sort of Cold War happening in the Middle East between predominately Sunni bloc led by Saudi Arabia, and a Shiite bloc led by Iran. Both seek to be a regional hegemony in the ME.

Neither side "likes" Israel, but the Saudis at least pretend to support them because their presence helps Iran from asserting its' dominance in the region.

The "conspiracy theory" that Quintus Curtius and Scorpion mentioned in the ISIS thread a few weeks ago also got me thinking, and despite being such a audacious claim, it is not illogical.

If I understood correctly, their theory was basically this:

-Iran hates Israel. Israel hates Iran.

-For years Iran has fought a proxy war against Israel by funding and arming Hezbollah, a Muslim radical group in southern Lebanon. The Middle man between Iran and Hezbollah was Bashar al-Asad of Syria. Despite being a Sunni, he is a secular dictator who hated Israel and coopperated with Iran.

-Israel perceived Asad as the weakest link in the enemy's chain and began funding a radical Islamic insurgency with the goal of overthrowing Asad, which would a) destabilize a powerful and hostile Arab state on their border, and b) sever the link between Hezbollah and Iran.

-This group became known as ISIS and succeed in not only all but destroying Asad's regime, but taking over a good part of Iraq as well. This serves Israel's interests but creating a powerful Sunni buffer state between themselves and Iran.

Indeed- why is it that ISIS, supposedly the most radical Islamist group the world has ever known, seems to have no interest in attacking Israel, even though they are right next door? I can't even recall them over mentioning Israel in any of their videos/social media blitzes. Could it be they don't want to bite the hand that's feeding them?

This is far-fetched, but the Israelis are masters of realpolitik. When I think of the atrocities ISIS has committed, I think "there's no way a country like Israel could have facilitated this"....then I remember what the CIA has done over the years and it doesn't seem so unbelievable. Mossad and the CIA are cut from the same cloth.

Post: #28

I think Jon Stewart says it well in this segment of the Daily Show: http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/13ry42...adventures



Islam is a threat. However the dictatorial states of the Middle East are the best at defeating and destroying Radical Islam. Those nations ruled with an iron fist are the one we have to worry about least in the region.

Post: #29

Furthermore, let's delve into the Iran/Saudi Arabia dynamic a bit more.

If you do some research, you'll learn several things:

Iran's government, hates America and the West, but its' people seem to like us.

In Saudi Arabia, its' the opposite. The government of corrupt oligarchs are "allies" and pay lip service to the US but the average Saudi does not have any particular reason to love the US or Israel. Indeed- Saudi Arabia (and the Sunni gulf region) is the birthplace Wahabbi Islamist movement, that wouldn't be possible if there wasn't a population receptive to it.

The truth is this is the perfect time to reach out to Iran and win more of their population over, they will put pressure on their government to change and avoid war.

If we were really serious about their "nuclear ambitions" we would help them set up Thorium plants, because that does not generate material able to be used for weapons. Hell, I'd support US taxpayer money being used for that purpose, it would be an investment in national security. The fact this isn't happening shows this is all smoke and mirrors.

Another thing to consider; say Iran DOES get a nuke, and Pakistan fulfills their promise to give nukes to Saudia Arabia in response. Quite frankly I'm more scared of the Saudis have a nuke than the Iranians. The Saudis are the most duplicitous backstabbing snakes in the Middle East. Every time prisoners from Guantanamo or terrorist suspects are held in Saudi Arabia or one of their neighboring Gulf puppet states they "mysteriously escape".

You can bet your ass some stunt will be pulled where one of SA's nukes "goes missing" or is "unaccounted for", and their cronies in the US will cover for them.

Post: #30

(03-03-2015 11:17 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Israel, the biggest welfare leach in existence today.

We give them money, military equipment, and software.

Yet those fucks still want to steal the US military secrets.

First rule, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Although they do because they play victim and our media does not report instances when israeli spies get caught.

What a baseless claim of stupidity. Dont comment on things you know absolutely nothing about.

Israel receives lots of aid from America, which we appreciate. We use that aid and develop the latest weapons and technology and share it in return with the US. Ever heard of the Iron Dome? Hands down the most effective short range missile defense system out there. Developed by Israel. The Merkavah 4 Tank? By far the most advanced tank out there. Developed by Israel. I could carry on with a list of many more weapon related items, but I wont. Just wanted to expose your false claims.

Israel's War of Independence, the most important war in Israel's history, was fought with no US aid at all. Just wanted to clear that up. The tone of your comment is as if Israel just takes and takes and gives nothing in return. Don't be so naive and ignorant. Why don't you mention the billions of dollars America gives to Egypt or Saudi Arabia, who aren't even democracies.

I served in Israel's special forces for 3 years. I bet you didn't know the marines, green berets, navy seals and many others come over here year around to get trained by our counter-terrorism experts and facilities. We built a mini Gaza City replica south of the country. It is the most advanced counter-terrorism-close corner combat facility in the world. American soldiers come over all the time do joint exercises every year.

Netanyahu's speech was great. That's what you call a leader. As oppose to the unfortunately sad president who is running the great country of America.

O ya, and your software claim. Do me a favor. Look up what software you have in the computer you are using to type the idiocy you claim. Good chance its Israeli technology.

Post: #31

(03-03-2015 11:17 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Israel, the biggest welfare leach in existence today.

We give them money, military equipment, and software.

Yet those fucks still want to steal the US military secrets.

First rule, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Although they do because they play victim and our media does not report instances when israeli spies get caught.

Thing is most of that aid money goes to Raytheon, Boeing etc, as with these agreements THEY are the ONLY ones allowed to produce those weapons and systems for Israel, so these agreements are mostly to keep Americans Employed. It is much less" giving them money equipment and software" as it is "Paying Americans to go do all that and saying that Israel still owes us favors." Aid to foreign countries is more about keep the Military Industrial Complex well oiled and running, while garnering favor with other countries than anything else.


People really need to think a bit more before just typing any old random thing.

Post: #32

(03-03-2015 11:17 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Israel, the biggest welfare leach in existence today.

We give them money, military equipment, and software.

Yet those fucks still want to steal the US military secrets.

First rule, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Although they do because they play victim and our media does not report instances when israeli spies get caught.

What a baseless claim of stupidity. Dont comment on things you know absolutely nothing about.

Israel receives lots of aid from America, which we appreciate. We use that aid and develop the latest weapons and technology and share it in return with the US. Ever heard of the Iron Dome? Hands down the most effective short range missile defense system out there. Developed by Israel. The Merkavah 4 Tank? By far the most advanced tank out there. Developed by Israel. I could carry on with a list of many more weapon related items, but I wont. Just wanted to expose your false claims.

Israel's War of Independence, the most important war in Israel's history, was fought with no US aid at all. Just wanted to clear that up. The tone of your comment is as if Israel just takes and takes and gives nothing in return. Don't be so naive and ignorant. Why don't you mention the billions of dollars America gives to Egypt or Saudi Arabia, who aren't even democracies.

I served in Israel's special forces for 3 years. I bet you didn't know the marines, green berets, navy seals and many others come over here year around to get trained by our counter-terrorism experts and facilities. We built a mini Gaza City replica south of the country. It is the most advanced counter-terrorism-close corner combat facility in the world. American soldiers come over all the time do joint exercises every year.

Israel is America's greatest and closest ally. The Israeli people really do love America. We share the same values.

Netanyahu's speech was great. That's what you call a leader. As oppose to the unfortunately sad president who is running the great country of America.

O ya, and your software claim. Do me a favor. Look up what software you have in the computer you are using to type the idiocy you claim. Good chance its Israeli technology.

Post: #33

(03-03-2015 10:42 PM)Kaizen Wrote:  He thinks he knows better than the current administration as if they have no brains.

They don't. They backstabbed Gaddafi, turning Libya into a giant mess, and were cheerleaders of the Arab Spring which made the situation in the Middle East a whole lot worse than it's been in a long time.

American meddling in the ME just makes things worse.

I'm sure if some deal is worked out with Iran we'll suffer plenty of unforeseen consequences and their Sunni rivals, like the KSA, will also arm themselves with nukes.

At this point a nuclear armed Middle East seems like an inevitability, which is bad for everyone involved because it ups the possibility of nuclear war and incentivizes the use of terrorism. It'll lead to a severe uptick in clandestine state-supported terrorism in order to get around the nuclear deterrent affect.

Furthermore, and this is neither here nor there, but when I was discussing all this with leftists a couple years ago they outright denied Iran was seeking nuclear weapons in the first place (a position that was even held by Noam Chomsky). So why are we negotiating with Iran over something that, according to them, doesn't exist?

Post: #34

Israel is like that obnoxious little brother that calls you an asshole and then asks to borrow your car for the weekend.

Post: #35

(03-04-2015 11:37 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  They don't. They backstabbed Gaddafi, turning Libya into a giant mess, and were cheerleaders of the Arab Spring which made the situation in the Middle East a whole lot worse than it's been in a long time.

American meddling in the ME just makes things worse.

Unless this is the exact outcome that they were hoping for.

Post: #36

(03-04-2015 11:58 AM)Darius Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:37 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  They don't. They backstabbed Gaddafi, turning Libya into a giant mess, and were cheerleaders of the Arab Spring which made the situation in the Middle East a whole lot worse than it's been in a long time.

American meddling in the ME just makes things worse.

Unless this is the exact outcome that they were hoping for.

They aren't that smart.

Post: #37

(03-04-2015 12:00 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:58 AM)Darius Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:37 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  They don't. They backstabbed Gaddafi, turning Libya into a giant mess, and were cheerleaders of the Arab Spring which made the situation in the Middle East a whole lot worse than it's been in a long time.

American meddling in the ME just makes things worse.

Unless this is the exact outcome that they were hoping for.

They aren't that smart.

The people they work for are.

Post: #38

(03-04-2015 12:02 PM)Darius Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 12:00 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:58 AM)Darius Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:37 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  They don't. They backstabbed Gaddafi, turning Libya into a giant mess, and were cheerleaders of the Arab Spring which made the situation in the Middle East a whole lot worse than it's been in a long time.

American meddling in the ME just makes things worse.

Unless this is the exact outcome that they were hoping for.

They aren't that smart.

The people they work for are.

Oh really? And who would they be?

Post: #39

Always playing the victim card, oh woe is us and our peoples. DON'T FORGET THE HOLOCAUST GUYS ! DID WE MENTION THAT !?

Fuck off.

You've got advanced weapons, blockaded an entire race not to mention destroying most their infrastructure, at one point not even allowing cement in.

Slowly but surely IDF is becoming the new SS.

I'm tired of backing them, I did in the past, YES, they have the right to defend themselves.

We give more foreign aide to them than most other countries in the world.

They don't want Iran to have nukes, yet the Israeli's won't even admit their own atomic program.

You literally have to be on PCP if you think the Iranians are going to let some terrorist organization have a nuke, that's laughable.

Iran having a nuke would deter anyone with fucking with them, you know like India & Pakistan's arms race ?

Doesn't anyone get it ? You don't ACTUALLY use your nukes, you just have them so no one FUCKS with you.

All this posturing is fucking proxy war bullshit. If you don't think Mossad has a hand in things, think again.

Gotta love religion, greed for land, Zionism, and Islam.

Post: #40

@kaotic... you know its a shame because your posts on most other subjects are usually quiet quality, but its sad how in one post you can go from something legit to something sad and not taken seriously.

Have you ever been to Israel? I didn't think so. Instead of listening to biased media that reports the biggest lies told today to the human race about this region and spewing stupidity that Tuthmosis should give you a warning for, why don't you be a big boy and come out here and educate yourself on the subject before you go out and make such claims that are not much above the average high school drop out thats pumping gas would say.

(03-04-2015 12:16 PM)kaotic Wrote:  Slowly but surely IDF is becoming the new SS.

You hit nail on the head in regards to exposing to all of us your intelligence level. You should be embarrassed for yourself.

Post: #41

^Are you on IDF / Mossad payroll?

Post: #42

(03-04-2015 01:09 PM)LouEvilSlugger Wrote:  ^Are you on IDF / Mossad payroll?

125 Posts Since Dec 2013

Every board has to have someone that defends Isreal and calls us all bigots and anti-semites while pushing a pro-isreali agenda.

Post: #43

^^didn't have good wifi connection on base

Post: #44

It's nice to have a little diversity of opinion. Just think of how boring these threads would be if everyone subscribed to the 'I'm not anti-semitic but the Jews are behind everything bad that's ever happened' viewpoint.

Post: #45

(03-04-2015 01:26 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  It's nice to have a little diversity of opinion. Just think of how boring these threads would be if everyone subscribed to the 'I'm not anti-semitic but the Jews are behind everything bad that's ever happened' viewpoint.

I don't think most people on here have this view....most aren't anti-semitic, let alone holocaust deniers.

Most are just sick and tired of war, sick and tired of giving everyone foreign aide, sick and tired having presidents being puppets for other countries.

The whole "it's in our best foreign interest" is getting old and is a broken record.

I see my Israeli friends post one thing on FB, my Palestinian friends post others. I've heard both sides of the story, then there is the 3rd side.

This is why I avoid talking about it on FB but will talk about it on here.

It's-never-going-to-end.

Post: #46

End all foreign aid.

Post: #47

A foreigner coming into the Congress and basically asking for an American declaration of war on another foreign country which is not a real threat to the USA. The clowns in Congress who gave him a standing ovation make me sick.

Post: #48

(03-04-2015 02:48 PM)Sp5 Wrote:  A foreigner coming into the Congress and basically asking for an American declaration of war on another foreign country which is not a real threat to the USA. The clowns in Congress who gave him a standing ovation make me sick.

That's not the case at all. He came here criticizing US policy, which I don't really like or think is appropriate for a foreign leader to be allowed to do in an address to Congress but it's nothing new.

Mexico's President came before Congress a few years ago and bitched at us about our immigration policies to standing ovations. The precedent for this sort of egregious impertinence was set a while back.

Post: #49

A couple corrections:

Quote:The Middle man between Iran and Hezbollah was Bashar al-Asad of Syria. Despite being a Sunni, he is a secular dictator who hated Israel and coopperated with Iran.

Bashar Al-Assad was not Sunni, he was Alawite, which is a subset of Shia Islam. Sunnis make up the majority in Syria, but Alawites held nearly every position in the government with the remaining jobs going to Shia and hardly any to the majority Sunni.

The Al-Assad crime family is not a secular dictatorship. On paper, their government (B'aath Party) is supposedly secular but in reality anywhere B'aathism has been implemented you see a minority sect take total control of all the branches of government and army.

In Iraq, the Sunni minority, actually a minority of the Sunni minority, the Tikrit mafia, ran the show while Saddam was in power, and oppressed the other minority, the Kurds, and the majority Shia. In Syria, the minority Alawite ruled with the other minority Shia, and oppressed the majority Sunni.

These countries would be better described as tribal/minority religious dictatorships with secular overtones.

Quote:Israel perceived Asad as the weakest link in the enemy's chain and began funding a radical Islamic insurgency with the goal of overthrowing Asad, which would a) destabilize a powerful and hostile Arab state on their border, and b) sever the link between Hezbollah and Iran.

-This group became known as ISIS and succeed in not only all but destroying Asad's regime, but taking over a good part of Iraq as well. This serves Israel's interests but creating a powerful Sunni buffer state between themselves and Iran.

That is simply ahistorical. ISIS was born of the remnants of the previous organization "Al-Qaeda in Iraq and the Levant" which was founded in the late 1990's by Jordanian Al-Zarqawi.

Quote:HOW ISIS WAS CREATED

1989 - Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Jordanian founding father of Islamic State, arrives in Pakistan to join the mujahideen, just as the Soviet army quits Afghanistan.

1992 - Zarqawi returns to Jordan and is placed immediately under surveillance.

1999 - Zarqawi leaves Jordan for Pakistan to pick up where he left off several years before.

2000 - Zarqawi is in charge of a training camp in Herat, Afghanistan’s third-largest city, on the border with Iran, a camp that carried a sign that read “al-tawhid wal-Jihad” (Monotheism and Jihad) which would later become the name of his group in Iraq.

7 August 2003 - Operatives from tawhid wal-Jihad bomb the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad and assassinate Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim, leader of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

2003-2005 - The Zarqawists are still a minority in Iraq’s insurgency landscape.

January 2006 - Zarqawi announces the creation of the Mujahideen Advisory Council of Iraq.

7 June 2006 - Zarqawi is killed in a US air attack, and the advisory council appoints Abu Ayyub al-Masri, an Egyptian national who used another nom de guerre, Abu Hamza al-Muhajir.

October 2006 - Muhajir declares that his franchise is part of Iraq’s homegrown Islamic resistance movements, which he named the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI), to be led by Abu Omar al-Baghdadi, a native Iraqi.

April 2010 - Both Abu Omar al-Baghdadi and Muhajir are killed.

May 2010 - Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is appointed leader of ISI.

In August 2011 - during Ramadan, Baghdadi dispatches half a dozen of his lieutenants to establish a franchise in Syria, which was formed in December under Jabhat al-Nusra li ahl al-Sham (the Support Front for the People of Syria).

April 2013 - Baghdadi unilaterally declares a merger between Jabhat al-Nusra and ISI and calls it the Islamic State in Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS).

28 June 2014 - On Ramadan’s first day, Baghdadi abrogates ISIS and heralds the birth of Islamic State.

The uprising in Syria was part of the larger Arab spring and actually started as peaceful civilian protests due to a few teenagers being executed by the government for writing anti-regime graffiti. The tensions were there for decades, but that was the small spark that lit the bonfire that eventually became the Syrian civil war. It was their Muhammad Bouazizi moment (the Tunisian man who lit himself on fire to protest the government and started the larger Arab Spring.)

"The Civil Uprising phase of the Syrian Civil War was an early stage of protests and violence in the ongoing Syrian conflict, lasting from March to 28 July 2011. The uprising evolved from initially minor protests, beginning as early as January 2011, as a response to the regional Arab Spring, government corruption and human rights abuses. The uprising phase was marked by massive anti-government opposition demonstrations against the Ba'athist government of Bashar al-Assad, meeting with police and military violence, massive arrests and brutal crackdown, resulting in hundreds of casualties and thousands of wounded.

Despite Bashar al-Assad's attempts to pacify the protests with massive crackdown and use of censorship on one hand and concessions on the other, by the end of April, it became clear the situation was getting out of his control and the Syrian government deployed numerous troops on the ground.

The civil uprising phase created the platform for emergence of militant opposition movements and massive defections from the Syrian Army, which gradually transformed the conflict from a civil uprising to an armed rebellion, and later a civil war. The rebel Free Syrian Army was created on July 29, 2011. From then on, the struggle took the shape of an armed insurgency, with civil resistance disbanded and opposition members turning to arms."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_upris..._Civil_War

Quote:why is it that ISIS, supposedly the most radical Islamist group the world has ever known, seems to have no interest in attacking Israel, even though they are right next door? I can't even recall them over mentioning Israel in any of their videos/social media blitzes. Could it be they don't want to bite the hand that's feeding them?

If you haven't seen ISIS's threats to Israel you haven't watched or read any of their propaganda. Go download and read an issue of their magazine called, "Dabiq". There are threats to Israel on almost every page. You have to understand their battle plan, which revolves around a bizarre apocalyptic prophecy from the Hadith, in which the Muslim armies will fight the battle of Armageddon at a Syrian city called Dabiq, which will basically kill everyone on the planet except for 5,000 Muslim fighters and will usher in the return of Jesus and judgement day. It sounds really fucking bizarre, but it is no more bizarre than the book of Revelation. Graham Wood wrote an absolutely incredible piece for the Atlantic which basically gives you a cliff's notes version of ISIS's mission statement or business plan. Check it out here: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arch...ts/384980/

I know it makes no sense to you and I, but you have to realize that religion is inherently irrational because it is based on faith, rather than reason and logic. They really believe they are starting the chain of events that will lead to the apocalypse.

So, you can either take the actual words and propaganda of ISIS at face value, or you can take the opinion of QC and Scorpion and just blame the entire thing on a Jewish conspiracy.

Personally, I listen to what the enemy says and take them very seriously. They are telling us what they are going to do and where their motivations come from. ISIS isn't shy and they publicize everything they do, you literally have to ignore reality to think otherwise.

Post: #50

So, as the USA is dragged into one war after another for the foreseeable future; will we still have to suffer simpletons telling us it's the "Military-industrial-complex" that is behind it all?