Post: #76

(10-05-2014 11:13 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  But it definitely is a shit test, and a subtle form of disrespect. It's an attempt to hijack the interaction and make it about food. Decent chicks don't do this shit. My deflection methods used to be (and still are) the following:

Quintus summarizes this perfectly. This isn't about money. It's that buying someone you barely know food--when that wasn't the plan or the offer--is bad game. Period. The very rare exceptions--the girl is a (skinny) diabetic or you just know within 10 minutes that she's going to be the mother of your children--are just that, rare. I'm frankly astounded that buying a strange girl food merely because she wants it doesn't ring as problematic to so many of you. This is a weak frame. She's calling the shots instead of you. Do you also let her pick the venue?

The idea that you "scare the cat" by not giving into its demands is also silly. Not to mention that the cat thing is a daygame metaphor. At night, it's not about not scaring a timid cat; it's about not getting barreled over by an emboldened chick throwing shit tests at you with impunity, with full knowledge that dozens of dudes are swiping right on her Tinder even as you speak. As several posters have correctly noted, good chicks don't generally pull this shit. Only spoiled, entitled chicks who are used to extracting extra free stuff from dudes will do this, as will general tire kickers, time wasters, and sport daters. The only way to get a chick like that in line is redraw what Quintus aptly termed "boundaries." Remember: these are large children asking for a happy meal. But instead of a tantrum, she's silently holding the pussy for ransom. Do you give in?

Stop. Feeding. These. Hoes. You not only hurt yourself. You hurt all of us. With every girl getting free meals (because, let's face it, an appetizer or two is a meal for the type of chicks we're going out with), we raise the cover charge of a basic (pre-bang) first date.

Post: #77

I bought my current main chili cheese fries on the first date and she blew me. I would trade 5.99 for a deep throat any day! I think this was more of a side item than an app though.

Post: #78

(10-05-2014 04:28 PM)Manipulator Wrote:  I bought my current main chili cheese fries on the first date and she blew me. I would trade 5.99 for a deep throat any day! I think this was more of a side item than an app though.

Did she ask for them or did you take the initiative?

Post: #79

I understand wanting not to scare the cat and just have a good time and roll with the punches.

But if I remember correctly wasn't there a thread of the ROI on a date and the CPB (cost per bang)?

If we're really being ruthlessly cold it all comes down to how much TIME and MONEY you are investing in banging the girl.


Personally I've ran into this twice, and actually one was recently. /thread-24128-...#pid838552

TL;DR we walk out of venue 1 (I paid for our drinks) and she's complaining she's hungry, venue 2 doesn't have any food. I fall into her frame and find a place and she gets an appetizer, I specifically tell her I've already ate, I don't want any of appetizer and also had handed my menu to the waiter. The bill comes, I don't pull out my wallet, and wait a few seconds, she ends up paying for my beer, her glass of wine, and her appetizer. I grabbed the frame back.

The second girl, was at a place that's a loungeish bar restaurant, she looked at the appetizer happy hour menu, she asked if I was hungry. I said no, I already and I was here to drink and talk not eat. She put the menu away.

To me the whole appetizer thing could be another shit test to see how much she can get away with and can reveal your intentions with her.

I also occasionally drop a line talking about how weird it is it to go on dinner dates and that the last thing I want to see is a girl eating while I'm talking to her.


I don't give a shit about paying for an appetizer, what I do care about is if it lowers my SMV in her eyes.

To me it's all about ROI but also having a good time, you have to find a balance between how much you spend on a date and how your frame/smv is.


Personally my logistics (bars) are places where it's hard to get food.

My view is you never get a girl food, never pay for it, and don't give in.

Post: #80

(10-05-2014 02:14 PM)Ice Wrote:  Yes, that is very true. I knew a similar guy in NYC who got played by girls a lot. He was a good looking dude with style, from a very rich family. He got a very cool apartment - of course paid for by his parents. He was kind of a nice guy though and didn't have a killer instinct, because he never had to fight for anything and always got whatever he wanted. He told me that he was trying to hook up with models, but was often stuck with paying huge bills without anything happening. He actually told me that once he went out with a model and she brought her female friends along, and at the end of the night he was stuck with a bill of around $ 1000, and the girls just disappeared. But objectively this guy was very desirable - as I said, he was good looking, well dressed, rich, and had an amazing apt.

I've seen this quite a bit as well. A wealthy guy that is giving off the provider vibe has to be very careful. I think that giving free things (food, drinks, presents) to girls is just as unattractive to them as a girl slutting around is to us. We like sluts on some level, especially when it's with us, but it's also unattractive at the same time. Men are judged by women on more than just looks, being a beta simp counts as well.

Post: #81

(10-04-2014 04:02 PM)Akula Wrote:  Russian & Ukrainian girls don't usually eat after 8pm or at least the ones I've dated so this generally isn't a problem in Ukraine/Russia!

Absolutely. Actually, what often happens is I order something for me to eat, the girl then happily watches me eat and sometimes even goes in for a bite, after which she'll say she shouldn't have taken that bite because she'll be fat now (because, of course, it's past 8pm).

This is a Western girl problem.

I am jealous of Parlay's $5 drinks though.

Post: #82

In answer to the OP's original question, it is extremely poor form and an indicator of a sense of entitlement if a woman orders appetisers and expects the man to pay when the agreed-upon date was simply for drinks.

As for the general discussion in this thread, I don't mind paying for an appetiser to share provided I am the one who decides what it is. I usually need to eat something while out as I generally feel a bit sick if I have alcohol with no food to accompany it. If she wants to eat something I have no interest in, she's paying.

Post: #83

(10-04-2014 01:27 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  For those who take issue with an appetizer I was just curious what the reasoning is? Is it the cost or is it you want to be one the one running the show and calling the shots or something else? If its cost are you also going to require the girl order a drink thats on special vs what she wants? Reason I ask is that at many places a mixed drink or even worse these girly martinis are going to run more than an appetizer so was just trying to figure out what the opposition to this was.

Chick wants something.
She ORDERS you to get it for her.
SHE CAN ORDER YOU AROUND
SHE LOSES SEXUAL INTEREST.

Back in the day, this was called supplication.
And the theory was that girls only get wet for guys that have *them* under control.

In my personal experience, i've rejected any gold-diggerish attempt made at me. But I also haven't layed them chicks either.

As for regular chicks wanting something to munch on whilst we out, I gotta be honest w/you dudes, I BE HUNGRY TOO. *weak American will power*

I'M ASHAMED.

In my defense, Many a time has a cone of ice cream turned into me "trying her ice cream" by getting it out of her mouth.

Can't really help you guys, maybe I need appetizer rehab.

WIA

Post: #84

Can we buy bitches something off the Dollar menu?

Post: #85

(10-04-2014 01:42 PM)The Wire Wrote:  

(10-04-2014 01:27 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  For those who take issue with an appetizer I was just curious what the reasoning is? Is it the cost or is it you want to be one the one running the show and calling the shots or something else? If its cost are you also going to require the girl order a drink thats on special vs what she wants? Reason I ask is that at many places a mixed drink or even worse these girly martinis are going to run more than an appetizer so was just trying to figure out what the opposition to this was.

Because food is a cock block in itself and is getting you away from your objective. Trying to bang a girl on first 'date' that you don't know well can be a tricky thing and requires some logistics to come into play. I can't see any normal scenarios really where a girl ordering a plate of nachos is better than her getting another expensive martini.

Its not a control thing, but im not a fat fuck that needs to eat food past 8pm at night when I already had dinner.

The 20 dollar martini loosens her inhibitions.
The 7 dollar plate of nachos, makes her want to loosen her belt.

That being said, alcohol lowers all inhibitions. Plenty of restauranteurs and hot dog cats send their kids through college based on wanting to eat something after getting drunk.

WIA

Post: #86

This strikes me as the 'rules' that new gamers get taught, the rules that more or less work until they realize the proper time to break them.

When you move forward in the game, you realize that the best game is no game at all.

Post: #87

(Today 04:28 PM)Manipulator Wrote:
I bought my current main chili cheese fries on the first date and she blew me. I would trade 5.99 for a deep throat any day! I think this was more of a side item than an app though.

Did she ask for them or did you take the initiative?


I offered and we shared--I had no problem at all and I bet I ate more than she did. I have had women make obvious demands for free food so here's what I have done each of the three times it has happened: I agree with her that whatever she wants sounds great and I tell the waiter to make that two of those and bring us another round of doubles too. Usually the bitch is smiling about now and I excuse myself to the bathroom. I make sure she doesn't notice and I walk out the door and find something else to do.
I wish there was a way to see the look on their face. I ONLY pull this if I am 100% sure I am being dinner whored.

Post: #88

Im on the camp of "this is not a question of money" but rather a question of principle.

Not sure about americans, but to me food is sacred. I am a good cook and I cook my own food. I dont wanna have to think about how much saturated fat there was in that morazella stick, I want to keep my six pack when beach time comes rolling.

If I'm eating out I would be doing it with my good bros or my main girl who have earned the right to be with me during one of my most personal moments of the day. I do not eat with girls I'm trying to fuck. What if it turns sour? You lose appetite and lose the bang. No gain there.

And in the end there's always the money. Cost add up. Shit I dont even get cocktails at bar, diluted cheap shots with ice. Maybe I'll get her one just so I can tell her "I can make way better stuff than this at my home. Let's go"

Post: #89

(10-04-2014 01:27 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  For those who take issue with an appetizer I was just curious what the reasoning is? Is it the cost or is it you want to be one the one running the show and calling the shots or something else? If its cost are you also going to require the girl order a drink thats on special vs what she wants? Reason I ask is that at many places a mixed drink or even worse these girly martinis are going to run more than an appetizer so was just trying to figure out what the opposition to this was.

My reasoning is I'm not a walking ATM. I'm going to say most guys here agree.

Post: #90

(10-05-2014 04:28 PM)Manipulator Wrote:  I bought my current main chili cheese fries on the first date and she blew me. I would trade 5.99 for a deep throat any day! I think this was more of a side item than an app though.

I'll never trade my dignity for a blowjob.

Post: #91

(10-05-2014 03:50 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  The idea that you "scare the cat" by not giving into its demands is also silly.

So true.

Is this going to be the only shit test of the night? Because as soon as she orders that $18 tuna tartar appetizer, she knows she owns you, and the rest of the night you're going to be hearing statements that begin with the following:

"I'm the type of person that......"
"What guys don't understand is that .........."
"Just so you know, if xyz happens that means that ......"

Meaning you've lost all frame and you ain't banging shit.

In football, it's said when you play against a new quarterback, he needs to be hit hard and early in order to send a message about what type of team he's going up against.

At the first sign of a shit test, smash it. Let this chick know that you're not tolerating her whims, that food is not an option. The reality is that no sane person eats food at 9 or 10pm anyway. If she's ordering food, she's either fucking with you or views you as a free ride.

Post: #92

AnonymousBosch [92]
(Today 04:28 PM)Manipulator Wrote:
I bought my current main chili cheese fries on the first date and she blew me. I would trade 5.99 for a deep throat any day! I think this was more of a side item than an app though.

I'll never trade my dignity for a blowjob.
-----------------------------------------------------

Life's all about trading. You don't get something for nothing. If you think it's wrong to share cheese fries with a girl then you sir have a lot to learn. My race horses eat more than 5.99 per day in carrots. Which is just where I took her after the drinks. If you have the bankroll I suggest strongly getting horses. I have never failed to get action after taking my date back to the stable after dark.

Bosch--face it man girls like appetizers and horses. Just don't be a pussy and you can enjoy those chili cheese fries while they suck your dick. (The girls...not the horses. I'm not into that kind of thing. Just saying)

Post: #93

(10-05-2014 07:07 PM)Manipulator Wrote:  AnonymousBosch [92]
(Today 04:28 PM)Manipulator Wrote:
I bought my current main chili cheese fries on the first date and she blew me. I would trade 5.99 for a deep throat any day! I think this was more of a side item than an app though.

I'll never trade my dignity for a blowjob.
-----------------------------------------------------

Life's all about trading. You don't get something for nothing. If you think it's wrong to share cheese fries with a girl then you sir have a lot to learn. My race horses eat more than 5.99 per day in carrots. Which is just where I took her after the drinks. If you have the bankroll I suggest strongly getting horses. I have never failed to get action after taking my date back to the stable after dark.

Bosch--face it man girls like appetizers and horses. Just don't be a pussy and you can enjoy those chili cheese fries while they suck your dick. (The girls...not the horses. I'm not into that kind of thing. Just saying)

Firstly, I would never want a girl who puts 'chilli cheese fries' into her body. A raised eyebrow and a dismissive 'is that the sort of thing you usually eat' or 'that's food for slobs' should nip that in the bud and make her try to qualify that she doesn't 'usually' do that.

Secondly, I don't and will never see sex as transactional.

The majority of men pay for sex, in one way or another. I have no interest in being a 'provider' for women - particularly post-feminism - or reinforcing to them with purchase after purchase that I will pay their way because their pussy is such a valuable commodity that it must be paid for by appealing to her capricious whims.

Most women will fuck a man if he gives off signs of wealth that access to her pussy will then be able to extract resources from. I'm not interested getting sex via a woman thinking she's manipulating and controlling me.

I'm a man who doesn't give a shit about jumping to heel for her, that her pussy has no power over, reinforcing the fact that she has lost her main tool for control that has worked on (most likely) every other man that she has met previously in her life.

This creates confusion, intrigue, and sexual desire, because she reads this as much sexual experience on my part, utter control of my sexual desire, and a dominant masculine frame.

You should aim to be a different breed of man to every other man she has met.

This level of pussy tingle is where female obsession is born. This is where she sexually-submits to you not out of a transactional obligation, but because she is enraptured by your indifferent masculinity, and wants to worship at your temple, in hope that you will notice she isn't like all the other girls you've had.

One Catholic girl I banged growing up once told me that sucking my cock was like taking communion for her.

Women want to feel powerless, to submit, and to be swept away in their sexual desire. They want to feel unable to resist, to become emotional hysteria. They know they shouldn't. They know it's wrong, but they are powerless.

I very much suspect the main female response to the desires of their Id, is a longing to give up and give in. This, I believe, is the route of the lack of female achievement in any field. They don't want to overcome adversity and challenge, they want to throw their hands up and say, this is too hard, someone comfort me.

I can pretend to be a drifter and still get the bang. This is the level where women pay for your drinks. Tapping into feminine intrigue and curiousity negates the need for conspicuous displays of wealth, and saves me the cost of a stable.

The cycle of disrespect can start with just an appetizer.

Post: #94

(10-05-2014 07:44 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  One Catholic girl I banged growing up once told me that sucking my cock was like taking communion for her.

Post: #95

I went on a date tonight. Here's my Drinks-Versus-Appetizers Datasheet. I encourage appetizer buyers to do the same (on the honor system, of course). I'm actually considering buying appetizers on certain dates down the road to test my hypothesis.

One round of drinks at venue of my choice (which does serve food but is, literally, the closest bar to my house):

ROUND ONE
Local tavern-style bar

• $20 for a "nice" cocktail each.
• $5 tip (I always tip over 20% at this spot)
• TOTAL: $25
  

*she didn't order food, nor hinted at wanting any.

ROUND TWO
My house

• Prepared two strong cocktails since I was getting a DTF vibe from the chick, but was getting some transparent, preemptive I-have-to-go-soon game from her.
• Estimated overhead cost: $8
  

RESULTS

I got nothing but a high-school makeout from the chick (kissing, ass grabbing, and some titty fondling). She was putting off a strongly interested vibe, but she worked a respectable second-date game. She literally left behind an object to ensure the second meeting. I was like "come get it," but she scurried away. She laughed at my jokes, thought I was interesting, and really seemed to have a good time coming to my house.

TOTAL COST FOR THE NIGHT: $32 and 150 minutes.

Post: #96

Some guys seem really salty about this subject cause they are both being cheap and think they need to get drinks the girl.

Put faith in game.. I've had more than enough hangs that I didn't spend any alcohol on.

Post: #97

Great thread with good insights.

I'm on the No Appetizers camp, but ordering a a simple cheap appetizer wouldn't be a dealbreaker IF all other things are good and looking promising.
But I wouldn't try a single crumb of her food.

However, I have also experienced when the food or the appetizer question comes on the table and I reject the idea and said I'm not hungry, then the girl put the menu aside even if I can cleary see that she want to eat.

I take that as a good thing and as a sign of respect.
She don't want to make a fool of herself with stuffing her face full of food in front of me just watching her.

BUT there is also cultural difference if you are outside America.
At least in Japan and Russia people often have something eatable on the table IF you are drinking alcohol. There you can pretty easlily figure out if the girl is trying to milk you on money, or if it's just a innocent cultural difference.

Personally I'm coming from a culture of drinking truckloads of vodka and beer all day and night without eating a single thing.
I get easily a little bit suspicious when it comes to appetizers and food.
We don't do that shit here.

When we eat, we eat. When we drink, we drink. When we fuck, we fuck.

For the guys in the No Appetizers camp.

Have you ever walked away from a date, only for the appetizer issue?

Post: #98

While I consider myself a member of "Team No Appetizers", it is worth mentioning that, like many rules of game, it is not written in stone for all eternity. We should be aiming for broad principles, rather than rigid, inflexible rules. There are some (rare) situations where an appetizer may help you establish the kind of control needed to seal the deal. Here are some situations:

The ordering and consumption of an appetizer should only be done unless it helps to: (1) paint you in a positive light, or (2) showcase you as a sophisticated man of the world. In these situations, it is OK, because it contributes to your aura and status.

Example 1: A couple years ago I took this girl out to a bistro-type place that had great Portuguese fried sardines. I love fried sardines. I wanted to eat them. I told her (not asked her): "This place has great fried sardines. You need to try them." I presented it as a command, but politely, of course. They were delicious, and I used the opportunity to talk about my upbringing on Portuguese food, Brazil, etc. It served as a conversation prop and made me look good. This was a successful deployment of the appetizer weapon.

Example 2: In my clueless and foolish youth, I had many scenarios like this. I sit down with some spoiled American brat. She immediately clutches the laminated appetizer card and scans it greedily with her beady eyes. I, not knowing any better, went along with it. She made the decision, and she did whatever she wanted. She then proceeds to pick away at the appetizer, while questioning me, qualifying me, shit-testing me, and looking for reasons to over-analyze everything I said. Obviously, this is a major reason not to order appetizers.

So, we can conclude from this that appetizers should be a prop to enhance your frame. And if it is not enhancing your frame, it is not helping you.

That's why it's risky to tangle with appetizers. They complicate things, unless you really have a reason to order one.

There are other good reasons to avoid appetizers, as WestIndianArchie said earlier:

1. Alcohol enhances desire, but
2. Heavy food dulls desire (unless she's eating it at your house)

.

Post: #99

I think this goes hand in hand with the "should you feel guilty if a girl wants a relationship" thread.

Going out for drinks and only sticking with drinks says something; buying food turns it into a whole different ball game.

Post: #100

(10-04-2014 05:25 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  Whatever happened to "Lifestyle Game" preached by Hooligan Harry and G Manifesto? You go to certain bars and clubs because that's where you know people. You get treated better because you're a regular and you spend money. You just pay for the drinks because that's how you roll and women want to be a part of your lifestyle.

If Hooligan Harry or G were here they'd scoff at this thread. You guys are acting like a bunch of minimum wage frat boys. Hell not even that. Even frat boys understand lifestyle game. Women can't wait to get in frat parties.

I don't even know what to say about this thread anymore.

Amen.

Seriously, I'd especially call out anyone over 30 that hasn't factored in just a little bit of lifestyle game. I'm scoffing at this thread, and you can think what you want about where I fit in the world of Hooligan Harry or G.

I do know that we all need to learn and adapt our own game according to our lifestyle, and if you can't afford a few appetizers then no big deal, but don't call out those that don't give a shit about a few appetizers even if it results in a strike out. (Honestly, there are plenty of us that pony up an extra $10 or $20 bucks here and there that aren't beta and have a better conversion ratio than even the gurus).

I might be able to see the whole "I buy a drink, then you buy a drink" and zero appetizers in the hipster community. Maybe true in the college crowd as well. Free pass all around.

But, outside of this...feminism might have infected you worse than what you are trying to protect others from...