Post: #51

Man, TravelerKai really knows his stuff.

I am 1/2 taiwanese and cracking up at half his dialogues. I've lived in Beijing, Taipei, and Tainan so there are cultural differences in each city/country.

As for hong bao and picking up tabs, its kind of neutralizes out (like b-day gifts) or is slightly in your favor. If you are visiting, people will often try and pick up the check. Its Asian courtesy. Be very wary if somebody stacks you w/a larger than normal bill.

Post: #52

(08-20-2014 07:22 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-20-2014 03:13 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  I gave out 2,000 in hongbao at mom in law's advice, and we got back 4,500 or so in (profit) the rest covered expenses.

The hongbao tradition is amusing because most of the time money just gets shuffled around and that's it. The big time face move is to always give and never receive though. It shows petty cash doesn't mean anything to you and it's a big generosity move that implies higher social position. I politely refuse hongbao and I always buy dinners for family and close Chinese friends.

Chinese people tend to notice who pays for the meal and who profits off of who even if they insist on always picking up the tab. It's a jew-like level of bean counting. They won't bring it up but they will often talk about it behind your back. Especially, if you do too many things to come out ahead (in a monetary sense) with family and friends. You really don't want them to think you are pulling slick moves or get a reputation for being "shao chi" (stingy.)

Btw, I don't do any of the above with SEA people (unless they are ethnic chinese) because they will shamelessly soak you.

Actually in many ways you are doing it wrong. The Chinese guy that always pays for dinner is hated behind his back by everyone. Not accepting anyone's treat for lunch or a hongbao just told them that you look down on them and you caused them to lose face in front of others. Taking turns letting everyone share or pay gives everyone face. Let me break down how it should work.

A) Always offer to pay for lunch/dinner first. The last person to offer will pay.
B) Take turns on paying for dinners. If you make the most money and the dinner price is larger, you offer first, if no one insists, then pay it.
C) If the meal is small or just coffee or tea, let them pay for it if they offer first.
D) If you have not paid for dinner in a while, insist by saying "Wo lai ba" or "Wo qing ke" (I will do it or It will be my treat)
E) If they pay for dinner, it is always a good idea to buy a bottle of jiu or beers for them or everyone at the table. (This is golden for business in China) In fact, buying a high end jiu for a potential fatherinlaw or even giving it to a girl so she can regift it to her dad is sheer gold for an impression. Business as well.
F) Always accept any hongbao. Refusing a persons hongbao, unless you are an old relative is an insult. Maybe a big insult depending upon where in China you are in. Dont spend it!!! Just keep it in a box and give it back to them later. Many Chinese do this.

Even outside of China, Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Koreans, etc all do the same thing with treating/paying for dinner. Hogging the bill all the time will make them lose face and cause them to hate you behind your back. In a way, verbalizing that you look down on someone is worst than saying fuck you, in Asia. Not having the proper going out etiquette can be the non-verbal way of saying you look down on them.

Heck one of these days we should do a thread on table manners period. I will never forget how I learned that not putting my elbows on the table was very rude in China.

Post: #53

(08-21-2014 04:19 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(08-20-2014 03:13 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  "Don't you dare cause me to lose face in front of your grandfathers and family."

"Don't you dare cause me to lose face!"

"You caused me to lose face because when I asked you to meet me in Changsha, you said you would not be there, and when I asked you where you were going you did not answer."

Thanks for the examples, but are you speaking to these women in their native language?

I think my main hang-up with asking how to be upfront about it is that most of the people I know or have dated would have no clue if I said something about losing face (in English).

I think since the concept isn't directly translatable to Western culture, only those with more fluent English would be able to talk about it without serious difficulty.

Maybe I better just learn to discuss the concept in their language - at least enough to get across what I'm talking about.

Obviously language barriers present a host of problems on their own, though, and if you're going the long run with someone, one of you better be fluent in the other's language.

(08-20-2014 07:22 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  Chinese people tend to notice who pays for the meal and who profits off of who even if they insist on always picking up the tab. It's a jew-like level of bean counting. They won't bring it up but they will often talk about it behind your back. Especially, if you do too many things to come out ahead (in a monetary sense) with family and friends. You really don't want them to think you are pulling slick moves or get a reputation for being "shao chi" (stingy.)

Btw, I don't do any of the above with SEA people (unless they are ethnic chinese) because they will shamelessly soak you.

Not necessarily.

I know plenty of people in SEA who are really good about it. Some won't let you pay no matter how hard you try, and plenty other friends (and girlfriends) have been good about going back and forth, or at least covering the smaller meals and letting me cover the bigger (which makes sense, culturally, if their income is less than mine).

While I understand your desire for caution, you may be alienating yourself in SEA with that attitude.

The risk is most certainly there, but it doesn't take long to sort out who is along for a free ride and who means well. Many will even take on more than their share more often (if not always) because they're so aware of what their fellow countrymen do and don't want to be associated with that type of behavior.

(08-20-2014 10:27 PM)Onto Wrote:  The more I learn here about the concept of face, the more I like it. It seems to be all about both respect and egotism and the delicate dance between the two.

Face seems to revolve around others perception of you (your face). Your responsibility is to what others, the world will think.

In the West morality is an individual thing where what other's think don't or shouldn't matter. Your responsibility is to yourself.

Which is true? Which is better?

Westerner's would naturally think individual morality is most important. It's certainly challenging and good to have a self-managed moral compass, but the dark side would be when we live by our own rules, without subscribing to a higher, universal law or moral that governs all mankind. We see this kind of anti-hero in western, modern day movies and TV all the time.

Then there's the attitude of being blunt and "open" and "honest" to the point where there is little regard for others feelings and when called on it, or a twinge of self-fault emerges, we press all the more saying, "Well, I'm just keeping it real". I see that a lot in western society.

I have never been to the East, nor have I ever had an LTR with an Asian, but TK's posts are outstanding, as are the posts here from the Westerner's point of view.

The eastern person's moral compass appears to be kept in line by what others, the world thinks. In some respect, this kind of thinking does subscribe to a higher law and morality that is outside of themselves. It doesn't mean Asians won't lie, cheat, and steal if given the opportunity. They are human just as much as their Western counterparts.

Yet since the Asian's moral compass isn't individual, they are less likely to say things like, "I don't care, I'll just do what I want", and if they do, all it seems to take is a gentle, or perhaps not so gentle, reminder about face and it will cause them to think what the others (the world, God) would think. Just one little well-timed word will do all that. Kinda nice.

So, LTR's with Asians? I say full steam ahead, fvck the torpedoes.

Thanks for this post. You helped me see it in a bit more positive light.

Cultural differences wear you down from time to time, and it's always good to glimpse the other perspective again.

I speak to Chinese women in mixtures. I never chase non-english speaking ones, with a couple exceptions where that girl looked so damn good and hit every fetish marker I had. It back fired too, for example she refused to believe I was an American because she thought America was a white only country and Obama was paid to be president. She was so woefully ignorant I wanted to cry. She was a soldier too. that poor brain was soo washed, yet she was soo pretty and sweet.... Anyway, always learn how to say you are losing face in the language they speak. Use google or ask someone to tell you how to say that. Memorize it and keep it stored like a nuclear weapon, like you would keep Fuck You, stored in the back of your mind.

Exactly, some people will never let you pay for a dinner. As long as you attempt to make an offer, face is saved for everyone. If it is dinner number 4 and you still have not paid anything, insist and fight back in order to save face and will respect. If you still lose, buy all the beers and alcohol. Sometimes a fight to put money in the waitresses' apron or hands works too, but hopefully you guys don't have to hang out with guys I know that I have to do stuff like this with.

Post: #54

(08-21-2014 10:48 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  Actually in many ways you are doing it wrong. The Chinese guy that always pays for dinner is hated behind his back by everyone. Not accepting anyone's treat for lunch or a hongbao just told them that you look down on them and you caused them to lose face in front of others. Taking turns letting everyone share or pay gives everyone face. Let me break down how it should work.

I think this really depends on the people you are around. If it's implicitly understood that you're in a better social position then it's alright to be the "host" so to speak. If you're still a stranger to them where they don't know you that well then of course you wouldn't be doing this. Amongst family and close friends though this is how it's usually done with people I know. Maybe in parts of mainland China it may differ a bit.

I totally disagree this makes people hate you unless you're doing it in an arrogant manner. Just to clarify a bit, there are two ways to play "host" in this manner. There's the paternalistic way where they know you have some money but you want to take care of your people so to speak. That is respected and gains you face. The second way is the ostentatious display where you just throw money around and it ends up looking prideful or crude. People will definitely look down on you for the latter but not the former.

The thing with the hongbao is more sensitive but the reason why I don't accept it anymore is because i'm in a position where I don't need to and people that know me understand that. It's not a great offense at all if they know you well enough to respect that because the whole thing is largely symbolic anyways. What does get people gossiping though is constantly coming out ahead by a large margin. They will start interpreting that as trying to be slick. At least my extended family would see it that way for sure.

Post: #55

(08-21-2014 11:13 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  The thing with the hongbao is more sensitive but the reason why I don't accept it anymore is because i'm in a position where I don't need to and people that know me understand that. It's not a great offense at all if they know you well enough to respect that because the whole thing is largely symbolic anyways.

I see this as the exact reason why it would be good to always accept the hongbao. By accepting the hongao, you are showing your acceptance of them, their existence, their face.

At least that's how I interepret it. I think it was suggested the money is always given back (and perhaps then some) through the form of a birthday gift or some other face gaining mechnisim.

The act is often more important than the monetary componenet of it. As the old saying goes, "It's the thought that counts".

Post: #56

Oh boy, you should accept hongbao until you are 40+, and even then you might "have" to take it.

The funny thing is that I am an ABC and also look 1/2 asian so its very obvious that I am a foreigner. These nuances really don't apply to me, and any effort I apply towards doing them is just a +1000 boost. Don't discount the "thought that counts". Shows that you really embraced their culture. It means much more than the monetary value.

ie. I went and visited a family friend's factory in Banchiao (Taipei), then we had an expensive Japanese dinner w/his biz associates. I am the youngest one by 20 years. I didn't even offer to pay as that would have be a semi-insult. But I had dinner w/my younger cousin and her friends. I just picked up the whole tab w/out looking at it. I think the bill was 100 dollars for the four of us. She was so shocked that I just dropped a "huge sum" on her friends w/out even letting them pay. I just laughed and said its OK. The 3 of them were chattering for the next 15 mins about how rich I was. Still makes me laugh.

Post: #57

(08-21-2014 11:13 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-21-2014 10:48 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  Actually in many ways you are doing it wrong. The Chinese guy that always pays for dinner is hated behind his back by everyone. Not accepting anyone's treat for lunch or a hongbao just told them that you look down on them and you caused them to lose face in front of others. Taking turns letting everyone share or pay gives everyone face. Let me break down how it should work.

I think this really depends on the people you are around. If it's implicitly understood that you're in a better social position then it's alright to be the "host" so to speak. If you're still a stranger to them where they don't know you that well then of course you wouldn't be doing this. Amongst family and close friends though this is how it's usually done with people I know. Maybe in parts of mainland China it may differ a bit.

I totally disagree this makes people hate you unless you're doing it in an arrogant manner. Just to clarify a bit, there are two ways to play "host" in this manner. There's the paternalistic way where they know you have some money but you want to take care of your people so to speak. That is respected and gains you face. The second way is the ostentatious display where you just throw money around and it ends up looking prideful or crude. People will definitely look down on you for the latter but not the former.

The thing with the hongbao is more sensitive but the reason why I don't accept it anymore is because i'm in a position where I don't need to and people that know me understand that. It's not a great offense at all if they know you well enough to respect that because the whole thing is largely symbolic anyways. What does get people gossiping though is constantly coming out ahead by a large margin. They will start interpreting that as trying to be slick. At least my extended family would see it that way for sure.

When out with mutual peers, there is no need to "take care of your people". If you treat people that are fellow students or potential business partners the way you describe, I guarantee you that they will have scorn you behind your back. You will be none the wiser. A family situation is different from non-family. With my inlaws we don't even talk about who is going to pay whatever. Either my wife or her mom pay and they both get their money from me and my father-in-law. Grandparents and cousins won't be paying unless they played host for a special dinner announcement (someone getting married, someone graduated from school, new baby, etc.)

Never accepting any hong bao based upon the idea that you no longer need one, comes off as crass arrogance. No one NEEDS a fucking hong bao. It is a custom in China to give a doctor a hong bao before doing a surgery. The doctor does not need the money, but it is for good luck and a strong gesture of support from the family. It's all a face saving gesture. It's politics. Does Obama, Clinton, and McCain refuse to eat a hot dog in Ohio from a 10 year old kid, whose parents do not have a job? No that's a dick move. High blood pressure and heart problems are a shitty excuse. You take that fucking hot dog, take a big bite out of it, tell the little boy thank you it was very delicious, keep in it your hand and keep on moving and shaking hands with people. It's a fucking game.

Tuthmosis insta-bans any "Game Denialist" on sight. Why? Because these guys refuse to understand that there a game behind all these interactions and refusing to acknowledge that crucial fundamental, prevents you from learning anything else further on RVF. Like Herm Edwards famously ranted, "You play to win the GAME!" In this case, playing the hong bao game mandates that you have to let them score too if you want to actually win the game.

You just said that coming ahead by a wide margin makes them think someone is being slick. Did you not already admit that you never let anyone pay at the table other than yourself? Do you turn into a Mr. Hyde when the check comes and forgot you were Dr. Jeckyl before while eating? What is your background? Are you Asian? Married to one? Are you ethnic Chinese, but Taiwanese or Asian American?

Your condescending attitude towards hong bao and Asian culture in general is going to be hard to refute. Especially since you even bothered to make an unnecessary racial insult towards Jewish people in your first post. No one is going to take the word of a racist person very seriously at all here. This is not the Everything subform where that kind of shit has a glowing fanbase. It would behoove you to avoid racist language and bigoted viewpoints like that here. Most people in the travel forum are open minded to different places and cultures and we are trying to escape alot of the toxic shit we deal with everyday here, and I doubt any regulars in this subforum want guys like you try to bring that garbage back in their faces. Please have respect for BB's wishes in his first post. He asked for no racist junk. We are just talking about culture.

Post: #58

(08-21-2014 12:07 PM)DVY Wrote:  Oh boy, you should accept hongbao until you are 40+, and even then you might "have" to take it.

The funny thing is that I am an ABC and also look 1/2 asian so its very obvious that I am a foreigner. These nuances really don't apply to me, and any effort I apply towards doing them is just a +1000 boost. Don't discount the "thought that counts". Shows that you really embraced their culture. It means much more than the monetary value.

ie. I went and visited a family friend's factory in Banchiao (Taipei), then we had an expensive Japanese dinner w/his biz associates. I am the youngest one by 20 years. I didn't even offer to pay as that would have be a semi-insult. But I had dinner w/my younger cousin and her friends. I just picked up the whole tab w/out looking at it. I think the bill was 100 dollars for the four of us. She was so shocked that I just dropped a "huge sum" on her friends w/out even letting them pay. I just laughed and said its OK. The 3 of them were chattering for the next 15 mins about how rich I was. Still makes me laugh.

Exactly. If anything, the cutoff is mid 60's/70. They can refuse your hong bao and no one will say anything at all. You just try to get it to their spouse or next of kin. If they try to chase you away and throw it back, then keep it. What that means is, that they will give you one later, possibly a pretty big one, like before they die or a big event like a wedding. Sometimes that just means leave me alone I don't want it! It cannot be helped in that regard.

I am not Asian at all, but doing it makes me a rockstar in China. Chinese people love anyone that loves their culture and respects it. No different from any other group of people around the world. For the most part.

Post: #59

So here's a very interesting situation I am facing now for which I'd like those with more experience with 8-9 and 10's in MNL to get some feedback from when dealing with these top shelf Pinay girls.

About 3 weeks ago, met a stunning girl, easily a 9 from MNL on FC, when dolled up even almost 10 specially with her personality. Shes 27, very sweet, and with a great job. Her pics don't do her justice, she's much better in person. Kai saw her pics and she is a dime, a true keeper. I've been chatting with tons of girls online but she is by far the best one to date.

We hit it off superbly from the get go. I've been making her laugh like crazy. Long story short, over the course of the past 3 weeks she's been falling hard for me. She's been calling me numerous times a day. As soon as I woke up, then in the entire way to work and she would even call me while she's at work and Im at work.

She opened up to me, told me her life story and very personal things about her. She said she loved me and she was asking me a few times if I'm not bored of her yet or if I'm going to dump her. I've been laughing it off all the while. She also brought the topic of kids and having a family and that she'd like to have a baby with me. I've toyed with those in my mind as she is the type of girl I want: fun, sweet, feminine, smart, funny, sexy as hell and very pretty as well as very caring and with good character and values and traditional and not a materialistic gold digger.

Of course, each time she brought kids or anything serious, I've been laughing it off all the while, constantly teasing her and busting her balls non stop. And she's been loving it.

She complained a few times about all the guys always hitting on her even doctors at the hospital she works which she doesn't like. She said she doesn't like those guys. She said she find them Boring. Unlike me who she said she finds me super funny, and loves my adventurous side after she saw my pics from my travels around the world doing cool stuffs. She said she's very much looking forward to spending time with me as I'm a super fun and adventurous guy and she'd love to have these kinda adventures with me.

It was going very well, we've had great talks, both of us laughing and goofing like two kids. I admit I also like her very much as she is the complete package and I was thinking of locking her down as my main girl when I get there in about 2 months time.

I like to give girls a cute pet name and she loves the name I gave her.

All was going very well up until last Saturday night where she msged me out of the blue saying that we are getting too close to each other and that we need space. Never saw it happen! Total 180 from how she was even the day before! My reply to her was that 'yeah I agree. You need to slow down girl as I told you before. At this rate by this time next week we'll have 25 grand kids'. To which she laughed and that was the last I heard from her.

I'm not a gf or LTR type of guy but
I wouldn't mind it trying it with her. This is the first time I get that msg from a girl. I have given her the space she asked for. Haven't heard back from her since that msg Saturday night.

In the meantime I've been talking to other girls but they don't compare to her. I'm not going to pursue her and will give her the space she wants.

Have any of you guys in MNL have dealt with something like this when dealing with top end girls? By top end, I don't mean wealthy but very beautiful upper middle class girls?

For western girls, I would give her 2 weeks max before nexting her while still working on other girls on the side. Would you suggest the same approach with these kinds of pinays in MNL? What would be the best approach for a girl like that?

I was thinking of giving her 10 days or so before messaging her a simple hey what's up? I don't want to totally delete her right away as she's that fine! If she doesn't respond, relegate her to the bottom of the queue and only send her one last msg before I get to MNL.

A few times she mentioned she doesn't know what to think about me, whether I'm playing with her or I'm serious as I'm always teasing her and joking. On Sunday, I did send her an email that I'm not playing with her.

I have a 0 tolerance policy for immaturity and mind games and told her that in the beginning and she said she hates that too. It pisses me off when girls play these shitty mind games. It's not like I was sending her roses, chocolates, poems with I love you notes lol. I was busting her balls and teasing her non stop, she was laughing like crazy all along and loving it big time. Yeah we've been chatting increasingly more but it was a two way thing as she loved every second if it and she was the one calling me!

We all full well know that girls are not logical creatures but this simply behooves me. I mean when you meet a guy that you really like, have a great time with, makes you laugh like no one, one with whom you're happy, why the need to play these shitty games? I'm simply puzzled.

I realize my post might sound beta to some in here but I'm approaching my mid 30's, 34 soon and I've had plenty of fun with girls on 4 continents. Ultimately we all want to find a truly great girl to have something more meaningful with than just a bang or 10. I'm not saying I want to settle down and get married just yet but I'm open to have a mini relationship with her and then if we really get along well then who knows.
Keep her as my main girl while still having fun on the side.

So have a go at it Asian and Pinay experts. Let's hear your thoughts on that and how would you deal with a situation like that.

Post: #60

(08-21-2014 04:07 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  So here's a very interesting situation I am facing now for which I'd like those with more experience with 8-9 and 10's in MNL to get some feedback from when dealing with these top shelf Pinay girls.

Nothing beta about this.

My initial thoughts:

-She found a better man or "more accessible" one that is willing to move quicker because she is getting closer to 30.
-Something personal happened and she is freaking out.
-She probably had serious flaws or maybe even anxiety bouts, and you are just now catching onto it.
-Asian women change their flames quickly. Can be good or bad.
-As pretty as she is, she is still a pinay. Right now there is a 18-20 year old there with your name on her chest that you could groom the way you would like.
-Shock from losing a quality gal always seems to hurt badly at first until you figure out how to find them in larger numbers. Get a system going.

One technique you can use is to find some very high quality types and just use them for conversation. Just talking to a high quality gal with no intentions to fuck them can do wonders for your psyche.

I did that a few times just to calm myself down when my stable flock was making me angry. At one time, my now wife was too busy working to talk to me, and my other 3 girls were each acting up. My stable was kinda empty and I had just 4 inside the pasture fence. I found some mid 30's women that were lawyers and scientists, etc. and just spent time talking to them online, regardless of if I was not their type or not. Just try to get their attention first and if they try to say, "Sorry not my type", tell them you just wanted an older friend to practice Tagalog with or something like that. Or you want some advice on PI from them. If you can get access to their FB, or even their trust or something, PIPELINE IT!

Sites like Christian Filipina seem to have high quality women on it. Just talk to them. You could even jump onto higher end Chinese, Thai, or Japanese sites and see if you can spot some successful middle age types (12 to 15 bucks doesnt mean shit to pay for an oil man like yourself). Keep the sub for one month, you should have your hands full by then. They usually have beautiful skin, but with the obvious wrinkles and spots no 20 year will have. In this mode you want their minds and hearts, not their wombs and pussy. The strategy is to ween yourself off "One Hit Wonders" being special to you. And...of course potential pipelines of their sisters, friends, and cousins...*ahem*

If/When she gets her act together, and hit's you up you can be like,

"Oh hey! How are you doing!? How's life? How was your dad's funeral?

Her: Excuse me?

"Oh I sorry that was someone else I was thinking about." "Didn't you have some kind of emergency or issue? Is it resolved yet?"

Her: "I just wanted us to take a break for a while."

You: "Ah I see. We should talk about it and see if we can't sort this out." "So what exactly happened? Because I feel like you caused me to lose face. I thought we had something wonderful going on and I was getting ready my passport and stuff to come see you, until you did that to me. I thought you had the good Filipino family values we discussed, what happened to that?"

You get the idea now....

Her face will be flushed red hot with anger. Once she stops to think, she will realize holy fuck I screwed up. Let me fix this. Well....unless she calls you back to tell you she has moved on. Something Asians almost never do because that is a loss of face for both people. Only Westerners tend to do this. They prefer the quiet fade into a new life.

If you did your homework assignment from above the next tangle with her will be a highly productive one. You will be armed with confidence, vigor, options, possible backups, the truth, and best of all a way to smack that ass back into submission if she has not bailed on you.

If I think of some other stuff I'll let you know.

Post: #61

i give people token resistance on the hongbao. ill take it, but theres sort of a denial factor to it, like "fine, if you insist, ill take your money"

not sure if thats the right way but i dont want to come across as eager

Post: #62

(08-21-2014 06:18 PM)clever alias Wrote:  i give people token resistance on the hongbao. ill take it, but theres sort of a denial factor to it, like "fine, if you insist, ill take your money"

not sure if thats the right way but i dont want to come across as eager

If you never see the person again, no big deal. If you do try to either return the same money in a new red envelope or just pay for the next lunch or dinner. If done correctly you and the other person will eventually lose count.

Post: #63

(08-21-2014 04:07 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  She's been calling me numerous times a day. As soon as I woke up, then in the entire way to work and she would even call me while she's at work and Im at work.

It was going very well, we've had great talks, both of us laughing and goofing like two kids. I admit I also like her very much as she is the complete package and I was thinking of locking her down as my main girl when I get there in about 2 months time.

VP, you know well that a hot girl like that will have many options. My read is that she met another guy that is a strong candidate. To her credit, she isn't stringing you on or playing mind games. She followed through with what she said (wanting space) and seems mature in her attitude if anything.

But hold on, you haven't actually met her in person yet? Dude, you aren't going to like this but, in my experience, the only way to lock down one of these (hot) girls is to actually be there on the ground. There is just no other way to keep their attention.

When I was in my early 20s flying to and from Japan, I lost several dimepiece girls who were very in love with me but just couldn't handle the time apart.

Lets face it, talking on Skype is just mental masturbation and girls will get lonely. Even before smartphones and Facebook these chicks got new boyfriends at light speed. I learned my lesson about long distance the hard way. Basically, if you're not there with her, its not a relationship.

So overall I don't think you did anything wrong as such, but perhaps talking every day was overkill with so much time before you arrive in the Philippines. The mystery died out before the relationship even started.

I would proceed as if she never said anything about needing space. That conversation never happened. That said, be unavailable for chatting unless she initiates it. Even then, keep it quick and light. Then when you arrive, you can shoot her a message out of the blue. "Hey I'm in Manila. Let's get coffee!" Or something like that.

It's worth a shot, but a lot will depend on how it goes with her other options. In that sense, things are out of your hands.

Post: #64

Great insight as always Kai!
I am not worried nor concerned about options as I know once I get there it will be raining pussy. But I thought it would be nice to have someone nice already lined up to hit the ground running. Also since this is my first time running into that from a Pinay in the Phils, I wanted to hear some feedback from others may have encountered something similar.

What I find striking is how she did a 180 after all the great time we shared together and the super sweet things she has been saying to me. When she was talking to me and when she opened up to me and shared her story, she cried. Not to play the victim and elicit sympathy to get money as scammers do but you could really feel she was sincere in the way she was talking as she had faced and overcome some serious hardships while growing up.

The point of my post and sharing this experience here is to better understand the psyche of Pinays and use that as an open ended experimentation to learn from for future interactions with Manila's higher end talent.

Plus, there's Vietnam, whose talent on Vietnam Cupid is quiet impressive and I hear it's even better and higher on the ground. So will definitely have to make it there upon my return to Asia!

Post: #65

(08-21-2014 08:30 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  What I find striking is how she did a 180 after all the great time we shared together and the super sweet things she has been saying to me.

Women really do live in the moment.

Post: #66

Just one more point on the hongbao. At leat in china I think it would be regarded as highly rude not to accept it. Also the same for not allowing the host (if you're visiting another city) to have face in front of his guests and pay. When I visit friends in other cities they always pay. When they visit me in shenzhen I always pay. Doesn't matter what restaurant - and ignoring that is just another reason for you to be viewed fair or not as a foreigner barbarian. You may not agree but you're relationships and business opportunity and pussy opportunity will all be negatively impacted.

Post: #67

(08-21-2014 08:51 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(08-21-2014 08:30 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  What I find striking is how she did a 180 after all the great time we shared together and the super sweet things she has been saying to me.

Women really do live in the moment.

And SEA women even more so. One month for them is like a year to us.

Post: #68

Another thing I notice about Asian chicks, or at least SEAsian chicks, is they never let on that they have a boyfriend. Many even hide that they're married.

They're all single on Facebook, and many avoid posting pics of themselves with their man. They try their damndest not to bring him up in conversations too.

There are exceptions, and some married chicks do wear their relationship with pride, but many are really secretive about it all.

Don't know if it's to keep their options open (in case something better comes along), saving face in case it doesn't work out, or keeping themselves available for random sexual encounters. Hard to say.

Another manifestation of this is how Thai guys will always introduce some girl he's clearly fucking as his "sister."

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #69

This is one of those threads where I read every post. Excellent topic.

I was looking at it with regard to Southwest Asian women, Arabs and Persians.

These societies are shame rather than guilt societies, too. The appearance of morality is much more important than actual morality. That is how they have prudish sexual mores, dress and support for brutal punishments hiding huge whoredom, corruption and official lying. It's not limited to women - the writer Andrew Sullivan once wrote the region was "addicted to bullshit," which is why everything is explained by conspiracy theories blaming other people instead of the evidence in front of their eyes.

I was married to an ethnic Persian for a looong time. Long story of course but she was an expert liar, about her sexual history to begin with. Not that she was a whore, but her claims to be a virgin when we met weren't true either. I was a chump and didn't see what her dynamic was about, so I married her because she was the hottest thing I had ever banged, even though she was four years older than me.

We had a high-conflict marriage in which she was always lying - about money, parenting and housekeeping issues - and shit-testing me. I didn't deal with it well. I had a poor form of dread game in which I had affairs, get caught and promise to reform. She was hot in bed, though.

When the end came, it was a flood of lies. What happened was she found an old boyfriend from before me on Facebook, apparently the real guy who popped her cherry and it went from 0-250 in a month while I was away working overseas. When it was all revealed, the difference between what she said and what I now knew was the objective truth was as wide as the Pacific.

Last time I saw her, she wanted to talk, but I said there was no basis for a conversation because nothing she would say would have any credibility. I haven't talked to her since.

Then, on the rebound, I hooked up with an Arab woman. I saw almost the same thing in her, lying and shit-testing, so I dumped her quickly. These women can be attractive, but in a way they combine the worst features of western women - shit-testing - and eastern women - dissimulation.

Post: #70

Im in singapore coming off of a major dust up with my girl.

When I called her on the shit the next day (and it was a lot of it), she basically wanted to ignore that we'd even had the fight, what she said, etc. They don't look back at these things the same way, they just want to act like what they did didn't happen, cook, play house, whatever. I didn't allow it of course, and thats definitely a change for her.

They also fight sometimes, and play these breakup games, to make you come after them (if you will). Most Chinese men are used to the (lying) role-play of "I'm leaving" and "No, please don't go, I can't live without you" BS. Its like junior high school shit, annoying as fuck and I'm not interested. Its to the point that its the ultimate Asian shit test - but at the same time, they're doing this because they want to check that you're for real about them. Insecurity breeds pretty strong behaviors.

(Thanks BB for the edit).

Post: #71

(08-23-2014 10:25 PM)Global Entry Wrote:  Its to the point that its the ultimate Asian shit test - but at the same time, they're not doing this because they want to check that you're for real about them. Insecurity breeds pretty strong behaviors.

typo?

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #72

(08-22-2014 03:51 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  Another thing I notice about Asian chicks, or at least SEAsian chicks, is they never let on that they have a boyfriend. Many even hide that they're married.

They're all single on Facebook, and many avoid posting pics of themselves with their man. They try their damndest not to bring him up in conversations too.

There are exceptions, and some married chicks do wear their relationship with pride, but many are really secretive about it all.

Don't know if it's to keep their options open (in case something better comes along), saving face in case it doesn't work out, or keeping themselves available for random sexual encounters. Hard to say.

Another manifestation of this is how Thai guys will always introduce some girl he's clearly fucking as his "sister."

I've recently had a lot of girls just bring up casually that they had boyfriends while out on dates.

One particularly laughable story a few months ago. I was out with this half Taiwanese/Japanese girl, who on the way to this Korean BBQ place mentioned in passing that she had a boyfriend in Aichi Prefecture. I took her out by the nearby river (it was night and there was no one around), where I started sucking on her neck, fingering her through her panties and nibbling on her titties. She's making these moaning noises and light jerking motions, lies on top of me yet the moment I go for her lips, she stops me and says "I can't! I have a boyfriend!" For much of the rest of the night, she still has no problem with lying on top of me, dry humping me, letting me finger her, lick her neck and her nipples, but each time I go anywhere near her lips, she stops me and says "Wait!...I have a boyfriend!"

I'm sure that'll make all the difference to her boyfriend in Aichi...

Post: #73

^^ Haha that is some funny shit and quintessentially Japanese. I hope you whipped your dick out. It's a good way to throw the balls in her court anyway.

Post: #74

(08-19-2014 03:09 PM)Menace Wrote:  Do you think there is variation amongst the Asian cultures BB? Is one group more honest? I date most Asian (fob preferred) and I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary. However these are north East Asian and it's in the US.

I've dated several different Asian women from different countries, and Vietnamese women for whatever reason always seem to be up to something. Not sure why but just something I noticed. On a related note, the level of corruption in their government is epic and has been for generations.

Post: #75

Something I was thinking about today is how much more I lie to Asian women than other women.

For instance, in the past, I've always been as brutally honest as possible and upfront about everything - with Western girls. But when an Asian girl asks me questions about things like experiences with past girls (being the prime example), I sense that she doesn't want a real answer, so just tell her what she wants to hear. I still value being honest, so for a lot of things I'll be truthful when it's not in my best interest, but when it comes to shit that doesn't matter in the present moment, I've learned it makes no sense to stir the pot.

Usually I feel like the truth is written there on my face, and I see the acknowledgement in her eyes, but aside from some gentle ribbing from time to time, accusing you of being dishonest, they just play along.

I guess you just adapt. It does beg the question of why they ask about these things in the first place, though, if they don't want a real answer from you.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling