Post: #151

Newbie here. Great post and theory! I think the easiest thing is looking at patterns that western men have seen. I am seeking an asian wife soon...and LOVE Japanese women. But I have heard a lot of bad things that revolve around clear patterns. Filipinas are IMO, the best choice....again, by patterns we can see and hear about.

Cant be worse than american women who lie out of entitlement...

Post: #152

Guys, taking into account all the data in this thread (which I have read, of course), which would be your personal choice for a LTR (or even "marriage"/kids), among asian women? I have to admit I am somewhat biased towards Japanese women but I have seen chinese women more praised in the forum. Koreans don't strike me as too naggy and my experience with them also points towards that. Thais and pinays are mostly very nice but I'm not sure if I value them as much as jap chicks per example.

Any takers ? ^^

Post: #153

Before visiting Japan, I would say Chinese. Now, I would say Japanese. But you really have to experience both yourself to decide.

Post: #154

Certainly. I have had an experience with a chinese girl , from Guanghzhou too. I'd rate her at least an 8 in looks and she was also very pleasant. So feminine that I had more fun with her than with most girls I banged. As for japanese I havent had many personal experiences with them, only brief talks with some tourist chicks here. But from what I have spoken online with them... the forum has them figured out at least in terms of their personalities or lack thereof

Post: #155

There is a lot of commonality in personality, and also a lot of differences. I would say J-girls are smoother around the edges than Chinese girls. Also they usually have 100x the fashion sense of Chinese girls. I find their personalities highly agreeable, but I have a high tolerance for their sometimes (frequent?) childish antics. Actually, I like that aspect. If I were to settle down for a serious LTR (co-habitation), it would be with Chinese or Japanese girl. In Japan I actually had strong urges to just get married and make babies. I do not expect any intellectual discussion from them; that's what male friends are for.

Post: #156

My issue with the japs is that so far I have not found any to be even half mature than I would want them to be. Well, granted, I've only spoken to the 18-22 range mostly. They have a certain machiavellianism too, I remember one that was sexting with me and like 5 minutes later she posted a picture celebrating her first year with her boyfriend.. Eh, 20 years old chick.

Anyway, I might go live there someday, so I'll see for myself, more closely at least.

Post: #157

(11-11-2014 08:32 AM)LEMONed IScream Wrote:  Guys, taking into account all the data in this thread (which I have read, of course), which would be your personal choice for a LTR (or even "marriage"/kids), among asian women? I have to admit I am somewhat biased towards Japanese women but I have seen chinese women more praised in the forum. Koreans don't strike me as too naggy and my experience with them also points towards that. Thais and pinays are mostly very nice but I'm not sure if I value them as much as jap chicks per example.

Any takers ? ^^

I see Chinese/Japanese/Koreans as being more classy than SE Asians on average because they have more money. They’re independently wealthy so I wouldn’t assume they’re after me for my passport. I also like their food. With Thais and pinays, I’m not sure if they like me for me, or me for my passport.

On a personal level, there are some aspects of Chinese and Japanese culture I find interesting, but I have little interest in most SE Asian cultures.

(11-11-2014 11:04 AM)Menace Wrote:  Before visiting Japan, I would say Chinese. Now, I would say Japanese. But you really have to experience both yourself to decide.

I love both, but Chinese are easier to read. I never quite know where I am with Japanese women. Chinese women are a lot more blunt and I appreciate that.

With Japanese it's a guessing game half the time. I was told by a Japanese FOB that in their culture they're not supposed to upset people so they're never honest about they're really feeling. She told me the only Japanese people she could read were her own family members.

For Koreans, I’ve never even been on a date with a FOB Korean, but I've banged a couple of Korean-Americans. The problem with them is that a lot of them are Christian, and I’m not religious at all.

Post: #158

(11-11-2014 06:32 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  ...
With Japanese it's a guessing game half the time. I was told by a Japanese FOB that in their culture they're not supposed to upset people so they're never honest about they're really feeling. She told me the only Japanese people she could read were her own family members.
...

So, if I invite her to my room, she would agree simply because she cannot upset me. Has anyone tried this angle?

Post: #159

Regarding your insight, Walter, I have to say I mostly agree. I do like Japan as a country, quite a lot. I would like to live there for a few years and experiment it. Chinese culture is also interesting, but living there ... not sure about that part.

About SE asia... the culture is mildly interesting, but to me, not that much. Not so hard to live there and it is cheap. Thais and pinays (just an example) are much simpler than their north asian counterparts, and also easier, but that's just about it. I prefer japs and chinese in all the rest.

I had a korean visiting me a few months ago, she was quite normal online but a rude bitch in person , I ditched her after an hour!The other koreans I have spoken to, all seem to have something "off" about them... They are a bit high on the crazy matrix..

Post: #160

The one good thing about both Chinese & Japanese (born and raised in their respective countries) is that they have very strong feelings about family. It is very important to them; perhaps THE most important thing. So, if you want to settle down, you want someone who inherently puts family near the top of her priority list. Obviously this is less helpful if you just want to bang.

However, I have been told by Japanese people that once you get married, it ceases being a relationship as we understand it in the West, and becomes more of a mutually beneficial partnership with very occasional sex. The man provides money, the woman raises children. I don't think the Chinese culture is that extreme, so that is a plus for them. However, this dynamic may not necessarily play out if it's a foreigner/Asian. Also, if you live in China/Japan vs. bringing them back is also potentially a factor. There's kind of no way to know. Anyway, if she doesn't put out, get a mistress. If you're living in Japan or China, it would be child's play.

Post: #161

(11-11-2014 09:18 PM)Northern Wrote:  So, if I invite her to my room, she would agree simply because she cannot upset me. Has anyone tried this angle?

I doubt this line of thinking extends this far.

(11-12-2014 01:08 PM)Menace Wrote:  The one good thing about both Chinese & Japanese (born and raised in their respective countries) is that they have very strong feelings about family. It is very important to them; perhaps THE most important thing. So, if you want to settle down, you want someone who inherently puts family near the top of her priority list. Obviously this is less helpful if you just want to bang.

The same is true for most Chinese/Japanese & Korean-Americans (actually Indian-Americans too). Unmarried single mothers (as in an unmarried woman getting pregnant by her boyfriend, as opposed to a divorced or widowed woman) amongst them are VERY rare, whereas for SE Asians it's not rare at all.

Nearly every SE Asian woman I banged in the US had a relative or friend of the same background who was an unmarried single mother. I recall only one Korean-American having a relative who was an unmarried single mother.

Post: #162

In my biased opinion, Japanese girls make for the best LTR material.

Feminine, non-confrontational, domestic, submissive, kinky...you name it. They are also the best lookers in Asia by a long shot.

But beware of the Japanese girl (i.e. 90% of them) who flips the script after you put a ring on it.

Post: #163

redacted

Post: #164

Still, I believe if you maintain a strong frame and keep things very clear, that won't happen.

Post: #165

(11-13-2014 09:31 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(11-13-2014 08:58 AM)dreambig Wrote:  In my biased opinion, Japanese girls make for the best LTR material.

Feminine, non-confrontational, domestic, submissive, kinky...you name it. They are also the best lookers in Asia by a long shot.

But beware of the Japanese girl (i.e. 90% of them) who flips the script after you put a ring on it.

Another homey

Got with this J-Girl.
She gave him the best blow job of his life.
They continued to date and got married, have kids.

He hasn't gotten a BJ since that first one

WIA

I used a bang a Chinese-American girl and even though I had banged her a few times, she wouldn't go down on me. When I asked her why, she said that I had to earn it.

I nexted the bitch ASAP.

Post: #166

(11-13-2014 09:31 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(11-13-2014 08:58 AM)dreambig Wrote:  In my biased opinion, Japanese girls make for the best LTR material.

Feminine, non-confrontational, domestic, submissive, kinky...you name it. They are also the best lookers in Asia by a long shot.

But beware of the Japanese girl (i.e. 90% of them) who flips the script after you put a ring on it.

Another homey

Got with this J-Girl.
She gave him the best blow job of his life.
They continued to date and got married, have kids.

He hasn't gotten a BJ since that first one

WIA

This is where game Asian man style would have saved this. Demand it for face sake or send her packing and be dead fucking serious about it . He would have needed to do that at the very beginning before kids.

Many of these women think we might be soft unlike their local men. Strong frame with romance is their dream, but they cannot articulate that to you, and even if they could most would not.

If they know you are crazy from jump street they won't test your gangster later.

Post: #167

TomTX
Senior Mustachian

Posts: 905
Location: Texas

Re: Forget $600K, retire on $100K in the Philippines (or other country)
« Reply #95 on: Today at 08:56:44 AM

My brother married a woman from SE Asia. After they consolidated all of their student loans and she had a green card - it turned out she was 10 years older than she claimed, and shortly thereafter she vanished, leaving him the student loans, joint credit card debt, etc.


Just saw this over at Mr.MoneyMustache which I check out pretty regularly. Im all about the frugal life. But this one made me laugh. I hear stories like this regularly enough.

Post: #168

A fool and their money are always easily departed. Scam stories are a dime a dozen. Desperate, low IQ, and Aspergers afflicted men are prime targets. I kinda think that is separate from lying in this context. The fact that the woman was able to lie about being 10 years older than what she told him, is a giant red flag. I don't think anyone that posts on RVF with a post count higher than 100, is anywhere near that fucking dumb. The worst lapses of concentration around here are something like VP getting webcam tricked. Maybe someone here might lose 200 bucks to some hoe or get their wallet stolen. There are a few gems in the traveler's log thread as well, but nothing on the magnitude of this TomTX guy's story. That is an entirely different level of bad.

Post: #169

Fostering Openness of Expression in Long-Term Relationships with East Asian Women

I would firstly like to acknowledge all the contributors to this thread, notably Beyond Borders for starting it, and TravelerKai for sharing his detailed insights.

My inspiration for posting this relates to an observation in my current relationship, and in retrospect seemed to be a problem in a few others. For context, all were with Korean, Japanese or Chinese women. The issue is a passive aggression, avoidance, secrecy, holding back, emotional repression, or put another way, a lack of openness. I once experienced this through a classic female double bind: “Well if you don’t know (what’s wrong) then I’m not gonna tell you!”

Overcoming this kind of communicative block is essential in establishing a trusting long-term bond. In many cases, a sense diplomacy and consideration for others’ feelings is helpful, however I personally find a lack of open communication to be a serious concern and look to address it early on where possible. The unfortunate outcome is not just the resentment that relates to this emotional repression, but the prospect of serious unmet needs—especially on behalf of the non-communicator.

I found a few other threads that mention the topic of passive aggression and anger (refs 1-5), however this thread seems to be most suited for further discussion—with a nod to the posts below, in particular the third quote from TK from his post #33 here. I’ve also included a number of links to broader articles from the web (refs 6-11)

(11-11-2014 06:32 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  ...With Japanese it's a guessing game half the time. I was told by a Japanese FOB that in their culture they're not supposed to upset people so they're never honest about they're really feeling. She told me the only Japanese people she could read were her own family members.

(09-13-2014 10:35 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  ...You are making the mistake of comparing personality and cultural flaws to overall value systems (i.e loyalty). This is an Asian woman's quirkiness on communication styles of telling little "white lies" or avoidant-style dialog as opposed to "passive aggressiveness" from Westerners and Anglosphere women. None of these have anything to do with loyalty at all.

(08-20-2014 10:35 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  ...Chinese do crazy shit to save face, but it comes off as lying or hiding to non-Asian people. The difference is that the consequences of your answers in the US are totally different in China. That is the part they must learn. Furthermore, things that are deal breakers for you, relationship wise, must be addressed at the beginning of the relationship.

The Questions

My questions are directed to the members who have actual experience in long-term serious relationships with (North) East Asian Women. No theorizing, please.

1. How have problems with passive aggression or concealed thoughts manifested in your relationships?
2. What are some broader approaches, or mindsets that you found helpful?
3. What are some specific behavioural, cognitive or emotional-based tactics that you used? What did and did not work in opening up her communication channels?



I will answer below from my own experience:

1. Problems

a. I felt frustrated when I knew my girlfriend was (i) upset and became cold (e.g., would stop using endearing terms in text or would physically distance herself) but she wouldn’t express the issue verbally (Me: “What’s up?” Her: “I’m just thinking.” or “I learned something about you.”, or the dreaded “nothing” followed by the silent treatment) or, when she did say what is was, it was vague and she wouldn’t elaborate in enough detail for me to address it (e.g., “You don’t care about me.”), or (ii) unwilling to express something that I thought was important, even after we had developed what I felt was a significant bond (e.g., Me: “what are your plans for the next X years?” / Her: “secret”), or (iii) used an excuse to avoid it (e.g., “I don’t know how to say it in English” -- despite her strong command of the language or “we just have a different culture” – thereby absolving herself of responsibility, as she did when she claimed: “you just don’t pay attention, why do I have to explain everything?”). At times this really annoyed me.

b. Sometimes this would result in an explosion of anger or emotion on her behalf, after keeping the lid on it for several days/weeks/months. Who knows what other negative outcomes have resulted from such repressed expression

2. Broader Concepts

a. Understanding the concept of ‘face’, ‘high vs low context’ cultures the importance of ‘harmony’ in Asia.
b. Calming myself before discussing the issue, which enables a more outward- rather than inward-focus
c. Identify what they may gain (e.g., a sense of power, righteousness) or could lose (e.g., diminished trust in your eyes) from the behaviour. Then seek to consider how to reduce her gains and show what she could lose albeit in a non-confrontational manner without ultimatums if suitable.
d. Understand what you may have already done to reward or punish the behaviour—have you led by example; Are you open and congruent or guarded? Has the issue already been discussed and if so, in what way?
e. Consider the stages of change (ref 10)

3.1. What (largely) didn’t work:

a. Ignoring it or delaying discussing it, hoping things will resolve themselves
b. Discussing it over the phone, or even worse, via text.
c. Blaming her, without accepting any responsibility myself
d. Getting angry and overly emotional

3.2. What worked better:

a. Discussing it in person, in a private setting
b. Calmly persisting when the first answer is a simple “nothing’s wrong” (despite her cold body language)
c. Use principles of motivational interviewing (ref 11)—such as the use of open-ended questions and reflective listening—to elicit her true complaints, get commitment from her in engaging, fostering change, and encouraging the development of assertion
d. Show her that I am responsible for my own communication and acknowledge your own faults, whilst ensuring that she is aware that you are a man of integrity with standards. You will not tolerate disrespect and lying.
e. Use humour, and keep it light where appropriate; end the chat on a positive note.

Bonus

f. If she doesn't respond to your liking, then disengage, reduce your time investment and give her something to miss. And/or, maintain your sense of abundance to help minimise any feelings of neediness and lower your emotional investment whilst still offering her value. Finally, there is the option of "be willing to walk when your needs are not being met". In this case, however, I am screening for future-mother potential and likewise in the case of others with kids/wife it is more important to be able to work through these issues via open communication and compromise rather than simply moving on.



All this is easier said than done, or explained via general theory rather than specific examples, so I’ll try one below. Sometimes this has worked, other times it has not.. usually depending on the mindset and/or emotional state of the girl.

Example chat

Me: “Honey I wanted to tell you something that is important to me, ok. I want you to know that you are very special to me and that I think it’s important that we can communicate openly because I think that along with showing respect, it is the best way for us to deepen our trust for each other.

Do you think it’s important that we understand and trust each other deeply? …Uh huh…Ok… and do you think that if we understand each other better, we can have a better relationship?” …ok.

Well recently I have felt that you have acted distant or been moody, and at first I thought maybe you were just having a bad day, now as you have said you’ve been thinking for a couple of days now, or when you I asked you about what you wanted in your future and you wouldn’t tell me, I feel frustrated because I feel that you are holding back your real thinking from me and honestly it makes it more difficult for me to trust you if you aren’t speaking your mind. There are so many things that I appreciate about you *insert compliments* ok, and that’s why I’m taking the time to discuss this with you. I want to understand what makes you happy, ok, and I think you need to understand that open communication is very important to me.

Ok, so before I say anything more, I want to know from your view, what do you think I have done or could do in the future to help you trust me more… ok… yeah… that’s fair enough… *discuss further*

Now, I don’t expect you to share everything you’re thinking with me, and it’s nice when we can do something for each other without asking, but what I do expect is that you show me respect by speaking openly with me, because the reality is that I cannot read your mind and sometimes you need to tell me something directly and clearly even if the topic is uncomfortable. Do you think that is fair?... ok, so… what’s on your mind…”

Gents, your thoughts are appreciated.

References

RVF

1. Guide to Screening Filipinas for LTR Material
2. Philippines Observations, Suggestions, and Comments
3. The Ugly Reality Of Dating Japanese Women
4. Dating Guide for Mainland China
5. I had a heart attack


Other

6. Emotion Suppression: Effects on Mental and Physical Health
7. South Asian Couples: Talking About Talking
8. Crazy-Makers: Passive-Aggressive People
9. How to Spot and Deal With Passive-Aggressive People
10. Brief Intervention and Motivational Interviewing Tool
11. Motivational Interviewing Strategies and Techniques: Rationales

Post: #170

Yeah this will be good. I have something for you. I'll post it tomorrow. Good Post.

Post: #171

A good friend of mine once told me that words here are meaningless. They just say shit without really meaning it, so this wreaks havok in business, especially with westerners who definitely see "word as bond" as a real thing. That is all I can really contribute. This is an awesome thread.

Post: #172

Quote:Realize that while women from other parts of the world, like Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe, often act more feminine and submissive, they are also often more cunning and better actresses than Western women. American women are bitches but as they've become less feminine, they are also more obvious about being bitches and easier to read. Women from other parts of the world are more old fashioned, but that also means more skilled in the traditional feminine strategies of artifice and dissimulation. In the end, I believe that with some effort, suitable girls can be found in various parts of the world, both in the West and elsewhere; but if you go for a girl from a more old fashioned culture, please keep this disclaimer in mind as much as possible.

I've deliberated over this quote quite a bit and I cannot help but agree. In many cases, the characteristics an atypical western woman openly displays are characteristics Eastern European women also possess. They are merely better at 'concealing them'.

I've spent years weighing up whether this bothered me until I came to the realisation [Which is rather obvious] that all women are just creatures seeking the apex of hypergamy. Manoeuvring to get what is best for them. It's neither bad nor good. It simply is.

With that rationalisation in mind, I then wondered why do I STILL prefer Eastern European Women? Is it the femininity? Sure, but you can find western women like that. Do I like living inside this 'illusion' of a totally submissive girl? Sure, but I'm most certainly aware of the reality…

So why do I prefer them? Then, I finally realised the most obvious answer:

1.) They are hotter.

It was as simple as that. If you are aware of the reality [Like all things red pill] - You should be able to enter a relationship and have a relatively positive outcome.

Post: #173

This base problem is why I don't have yellow fever. This issue, amongst others, just creates too much of a culture gap to get over in a LTR material.

Post: #174

Here's a story about my coworker:

He's white/Filipino mix, 37 years old, not good looking, bald, and had stomach stapled surgery. He used to be an engineer and claims he has no friends.

2 months ago he contacted a 28yr old Chinese FOB woman on POF, who on her profile stated that she was looking for a husband. She lives with her mother and is in the US with a student visa for some bullshit language school. She's been in the US for less than 2 years.

Looks wise she's a 4, and she looks a lot older than 28, she looks around 40. She's the first ever Chinese FOB I've seen who looks a lot older than her real age. A female co-worker even asked him why he's going for a cougar - she thought she was was older than him. The Chinese FOB can barely speak English and has a very low paying job.

The guy told me that he didn't know what her immigration status was, but that he wanted to marry her. He said she's not a very social person and doesn't know how to cook. Apparently her father always used to cook for her so she never learned to cook.

He told me he wanted to marry her - I asked him why he would marry a Chinese woman, given that he knows nothing about Chinese culture and doesn't speak the language. He said "It will be more interesting if you have nothing in common with the other person." He also said he doesn't like Filipinas because he thinks they're too materialistic.

6 weeks after meeting her, her surprised her by proposing to her at Disneyland. She said yes and they married a week ago. She has now moved in with him. He only found that she can't cook after she moved in post marriage.

A Chinese-American coworker told him that he's being taken for a ride. He just started laughing about it. I mentioned this to another Chinese-American woman about it, and she said,"He's laughing about it to people because if he thinks long and hard about it he'll want to cry, and he doesn't want to show that."

Where do you guys think this will end up? She's not even attractive and cannot cook. What the fuck does she bring to the table?! One of the guys in the office said that this guy is really low on confidence and that he just wanted somebody in his life before he got too old.

Post: #175

Quote:The Questions

My questions are directed to the members who have actual experience in long-term serious relationships with (North) East Asian Women. No theorizing, please.

1. How have problems with passive aggression or concealed thoughts manifested in your relationships?
2. What are some broader approaches, or mindsets that you found helpful?
3. What are some specific behavioural, cognitive or emotional-based tactics that you used? What did and did not work in opening up her communication channels?

1. They manifest in all kinds of ways. Too many to list, with women it's mostly just classic guilt manipulation. We gave many in the thread already.

2. Now the good part. Strategies and mindsets that help range from a Caveman's to a Fair Dictator.

A) I do not acknowledge everything my wife says. She talks alot so, if you have an extrovert, don't listen on bated breath to every little thing that comes out of her mouth. She will save face by either trying harder (double down) or come back with something she think will be of more interest. Even if something is interesting, ignore some things anyway. Keep em on their toes.

B) Learn how to set expectations early on and drill it until they can repeat it back without fail. THEN after many months or a year plus, inform them, upon bad behavior, that you will not repeat yourself and that they know what is expected. Doing this, save face for you AND her. Remember sometimes silence is a key concept of face saving. Once you have spoken, saying nothing more for a while.

C) This is standard knowledge with Asian women, but try not to bring up old shit, just like how you never bring up old girlfriends. This is related to B, but still important enough to isolate. Hammer in the expectations they agreed to at the very beginning. They are obligated to maintain face and stay the course. Most of the time, it is just a "reminder thing". They mean no harm, just forgot what the rules were. It happens.

3. The best tactic for setting expectations is to talk and assume it was heard. If you do alot of back and forth stuff, that gives her the impression that you are making a deal with her. That's bad frame, especially with Asians. Making a conversation one sided, PREVENTS lying. She cannot lie if her mouth isn't moving. After you are done laying the foundation for expectations, see if she agrees. If she is okay with it, then no lying in the middle of a conversation can happen. If they interrupt to proclaim their innocence, agree and amplify/ignore.

Say what you need to say as quickly as her understanding will allow and move on quickly. Long protracted discussions make stuff worse. They lose face, they get angrier, they feel belittled with each additional minute.

Other points:

Your sample chat has problems. For starters, talk is cheap like Fortis stated earlier.

Quote:Do you think it’s important that we understand and trust each other deeply? …Uh huh…Ok… and do you think that if we understand each other better, we can have a better relationship?” …ok.

Well recently I have felt that you have acted distant or been moody, and at first I thought maybe you were just having a bad day, now as you have said you’ve been thinking for a couple of days now, or when you I asked you about what you wanted in your future and you wouldn’t tell me, I feel frustrated because I feel that you are holding back your real thinking from me and honestly it makes it more difficult for me to trust you if you aren’t speaking your mind. There are so many things that I appreciate about you *insert compliments* ok, and that’s why I’m taking the time to discuss this with you. I want to understand what makes you happy, ok, and I think you need to understand that open communication is very important to me.

Ok, so before I say anything more, I want to know from your view, what do you think I have done or could do in the future to help you trust me more… ok… yeah… that’s fair enough… *discuss further*

This stuff is absolute beta to an Asian woman. Asian women will do the needful if they actually give two shits about you. If they love you, they will try to find ways to give you pleasure even outside the bedroom. They refuse to make proclamations about their intentions because they would rather display their allegiance by doing things for you instead. You are technically questioning her loyalty to you and causing her loss of face. If you were Asian, she would have dumped you already, because you are not, she is letting it slide or trying to adjust.

Technically it is possible to overhaul/brainwash an Asian into Western women style thinking, but there is a cost. You will lose a good bit of what makes them Asian in return, for wanting to encourage assertiveness.

Another issue is that lots of Western guys cannot read Asian women very well. Body language rules from the West sometimes do not apply to them. If you marry an Asian, get used to mopey looks on their faces. Get used to no smiling while serving you anything or handing you something. The fact that they do it without backtalk is all you need. Most show the appreciation in the sack. Not outside it. Service with a smile is fake to them. We are just brainwashed into thinking that is normal here. I don't think it is at least, but that is debateable.