Post: #201

(07-18-2014 11:54 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  RVF tends to be like the ancient Greeks citizens and assemblymen standing around capital debating, sharing philosophy, and knowledge with each other.

I really like that analogy. Props man.

Post: #202

Airliner shot over rebel held territory where air battle has been fought for 3 months already ? How surprising !!!

Everyone knew there was a real possibility for such thing to happen, and everybody was equally responsible for the mess. However, no one questions real, professional responsibility here, only political, and guess who is already, public enemy number 1, that's right folks, It's Russia again ! Another thing that i already can see completely surprised you .

If i was some rebel leader, I'd admit they shot it down regardless of if they really did or not, and say it was accident. After all, that's exact same spot where Ukrainian fighter jets and ground attack aircraft are operating for 3 months already, so soldiers cannot be responsible for civilian deaths in the middle of a crossfire. It's purely fault of government and air traffic control.

Politically looking, rebel point of view, so what if we shot it down ? Rebels won't suffer consequences, only Russia, and trying do evade conflict is stupid at the point when the enemy is actively bringing it not only to your territory, but is also gathering allies and pretty much everyone they can muster to fight against you as well, diplomatically and economically.

(07-19-2014 10:31 AM)Mekorig Wrote:  DaveR, Bojangles, maybe we can argue our diferences on the conflict on its respective board.
But to finish:
Bojangles, i do not know your background, but i can assure you that a dictatorship it is something you do not want, my country suffered one, and while i am not one of the pinko commies that keep crying about it in my country, i acknowledge that it almost destroyed my country, and generated wounds that are still healing.
DaveR: Do you belive that i like the fact that the Ukranian Army have to shell their own territory to fight terrorist that also shell them, hide their position among civilians, and dont care about it? it is a tragedy, and i have to admit that i am impressed so far with the low killing number among civilians, taking in count the citi`s population and density. That means that the Army is taking steps to improve the accuracy and reduce the collateral damage to the civilian population, unlike the terrrorists.

Eastern Europe has some of the least densely populated cities in the world, Luhansk and Donetsk no exception. Considering that 2 civilians were killed for every soldier dead in combat, Ukrainian army is awful in respect to civilians. So far, not even 20 civilian deaths could be attributed to rebels, no matter how hard western media pressed.

(07-18-2014 06:56 PM)Vicious Wrote:  People using RT as a source are either;
A) Ignorant of RT being fully sponsored by the Russian government and little more than a bullhorn for the Kremlin

100% of world media are sponsored by someone with a political agenda or viewpoint.

CNN is a republican bullhorn, but i still read it, to find out what republicans have to say, just as i read RT to find out what Kremlin has to say.

Post: #203

CNN is a Republican bullhorn now? I thought everyone assured me it was a liberal mouthpiece. I can't keep track.

Post: #204

^^

Since when are republicans considered conservatives to RVF standards ? McCain couldn't even speak out against same sex marriages in front of Ellen Degeneres, but he chose to back down and try to make some verbal stunts in order to win favor of audiences. They are pathetic.

Let's see what their front page looks like after all, check out that completely unverified bullshit that they copied to their front page straight from an Ukrainian government propaganda statement ! Headline is self-explanatory melodramatic crap designed to inspire masses emotionally

Post: #205

Jane's has a good technical article: Civilian airliner crashes in Ukraine, believed to have been shot down

Post: #206

(07-19-2014 03:37 PM)Icarus Wrote:  Jane's has a good technical article: Civilian airliner crashes in Ukraine, believed to have been shot down

It makes a good case that either the Ukrainians or the separatists could've been responsible. Of course, the mainstream media doesn't want people to know anything outside of "Russia is evil, they refuse LGBT rights, and they were responsible by proxy for shooting an airliner down, although the US did the same thing in the 1980s."

Post: #207

If it was the Ukrainian government who did it....

Why are the rebels hiding their tracks on social media and obstructing observers?

I'll apply the good old conservative saying, if you have not done anything wrong then you have nothing to hide.

Post: #208

(07-19-2014 04:27 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  If it was the Ukrainian government who did it....

The interesting question is not so much whether the Ukrainian military shot it down (which is highly unlikely), but rather why they didn't close their airspace on Monday:

Ukraine knew of separatists' air-defense capabilities

Quote:Ukraine intelligence officials said they knew three days before the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 that rebels in the east of the country possessed sophisticated air-defense systems capable of felling a jetliner at altitudes in excess of where the Boeing 777 was flying. The disclosure deepens the mystery of why Ukrainian aviation officials failed to entirely close off the airspace in the Donetsk region, where the jet was flying when it was shot down, killing all 298 people on board. Three Buk-M1 medium-range antiaircraft systems, also known as the SA-11 Gadfly under the North Atlantic Treaty Organization designation, were known to be in rebel hands as early as July 14, said Vitaly Nayda, the head of the counterintelligence division of Ukraine's security service. Ukraine imposed a partial flight ban in the region on flights below 26,000 feet on July 1, and raised the ceiling of the exclusion area to 32,000 feet on July 14. The Malaysia Airlines plane was flying at 33,000 feet. The altitude restrictions on commercial flights were raised after rebel separatists backed by Moscow on July 14 shot down a Ukrainian military Antonov An-26 transport plane with eight people on board over the skies of the Luhansk region. The aircraft was flying at 21,000 feet.

So, on July 14 it was demonstrated that the separatists could shoot down planes flying above the ceiling of the Igla MANPADS (which is approx. 11,000 feet), and the Ukrainian government did not close the country's airspace? Looks like they were hoping the separatists would shoot down an airliner...

Post: #209

Quote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...raine.html

A full 108 HIV researchers died as well.

Not to sound like an asshole, but it did occur to me that it meant several tens or hundreds of thousands of gays are fucked. I'm just glad no key cancer or Alzheimer's researchers were on that flight.

Post: #210

(07-19-2014 04:27 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  I'll apply the good old conservative saying, if you have not done anything wrong then you have nothing to hide.

I wonder how you managed to collect 44 rep points on a forum that tries to be very red pill.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Don't talk to the police"?

Have you ever heard "Everything you say can and will be used against you"?

Have you any idea how many people have been wrongly convicted because they believed that "if you have not done anything wrong then you have nothing to hide"?

Multiply these injustices by a factor of a million for a political case like this where there's a huge media machinery working relentlessly day and night on misrepresenting and disinforming a mindless sheeple population in order to further some nefarious political agenda.

Post: #211

(07-19-2014 05:00 PM)CactusCat589 Wrote:  

Quote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...raine.html

A full 108 HIV researchers died as well.

Not to sound like an asshole, but it did occur to me that it meant several tens or hundreds of thousands of gays are fucked. I'm just glad no key cancer or Alzheimer's researchers were on that flight.

Yup, I'm surprised no one has mentioned "it was an act by Big Pharma as there were so many in one spot and they were killed so they couldn't cure AIDS."

It's unfortunate, if we don't find a cure for aids....."bi" (gay) men will still pose a treat to straight when as they can pass the bug to women who will pass it on to other men....and the cycle continues.

Post: #212

After the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air 655 in July 1988, here's what was published on the NYTimes:

Quote:The present rules of engagement allow a captain to fire first in defense of his ship. If that rule cannot be prudently altered, the onus for avoiding such accidents in the future rests on civilian aircraft: avoid combat zones, fly high, acknowledge warnings.

Post: #213

(07-19-2014 06:02 PM)Icarus Wrote:  After the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air 655 in July 1988, here's what was published on the NYTimes:

Quote:The present rules of engagement allow a captain to fire first in defense of his ship. If that rule cannot be prudently altered, the onus for avoiding such accidents in the future rests on civilian aircraft: avoid combat zones, fly high, acknowledge warnings.

Seems pretty reasonable to me. They're saying that if the military insists on being able to shoot down what they see as a threat, then to prevent deaths the airlines are gonna have to get better at monitoring and avoiding dangerous situations.

I don't blame Malaysia Air for what happened, as other airlines (KLM, Aeroflot, etc.) were flying over the same areas. But some airlines such as BA and Air France were avoiding Ukrainian air space, so clearly some people in the industry realized there might be a danger.

Post: #214

(07-19-2014 06:02 PM)Icarus Wrote:  After the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air 655 in July 1988, here's what was published on the NYTimes:

Quote:The present rules of engagement allow a captain to fire first in defense of his ship. If that rule cannot be prudently altered, the onus for avoiding such accidents in the future rests on civilian aircraft: avoid combat zones, fly high, acknowledge warnings.

Post: #215

(07-19-2014 04:36 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(07-19-2014 04:27 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  If it was the Ukrainian government who did it....

The interesting question is not so much whether the Ukrainian military shot it down (which is highly unlikely), but rather why they didn't close their airspace on Monday:

Ukraine knew of separatists' air-defense capabilities

Quote:Ukraine intelligence officials said they knew three days before the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 that rebels in the east of the country possessed sophisticated air-defense systems capable of felling a jetliner at altitudes in excess of where the Boeing 777 was flying. The disclosure deepens the mystery of why Ukrainian aviation officials failed to entirely close off the airspace in the Donetsk region, where the jet was flying when it was shot down, killing all 298 people on board. Three Buk-M1 medium-range antiaircraft systems, also known as the SA-11 Gadfly under the North Atlantic Treaty Organization designation, were known to be in rebel hands as early as July 14, said Vitaly Nayda, the head of the counterintelligence division of Ukraine's security service. Ukraine imposed a partial flight ban in the region on flights below 26,000 feet on July 1, and raised the ceiling of the exclusion area to 32,000 feet on July 14. The Malaysia Airlines plane was flying at 33,000 feet. The altitude restrictions on commercial flights were raised after rebel separatists backed by Moscow on July 14 shot down a Ukrainian military Antonov An-26 transport plane with eight people on board over the skies of the Luhansk region. The aircraft was flying at 21,000 feet.

So, on July 14 it was demonstrated that the separatists could shoot down planes flying above the ceiling of the Igla MANPADS (which is approx. 11,000 feet), and the Ukrainian government did not close the country's airspace? Looks like they were hoping the separatists would shoot down an airliner...

"the cash-strapped Ukrainian government was receiving overflight fees for each commercial flight above its territory and therefore had a financial incentive to keep the airspace open as long as possible."

Post: #216

Dutch cyclist avoided death twice.
Rebooked tickets to both MH17 and MH370.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/dutc...d=24632968

Post: #217

^^

Lol, dude has got some karma, he should try caveman game

Post: #218

(07-19-2014 09:23 PM)BigDave Wrote:  Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Except for the fact that the USS Vincennes had entered Iranian waters to pick a fight with Iranian gunboats and then shot down an airliner that was ascending because the radar operator thought the airliner was descending. The U.S. Navy employs retards, apparently. Or dyslexics.

(07-19-2014 09:23 PM)BigDave Wrote:  I don't blame Malaysia Air for what happened, as other airlines (KLM, Aeroflot, etc.) were flying over the same areas.

So, KLM and Aeroflot are also ruled by bean-counting morons, so Malaysia Airlines is OK? To save $1500 of fuel, they lost a plane over a warzone in which several military planes had been shot down with SAM's recently, but that's not their fault? Do they teach that in business school? Risk management 101? What kind of filter do these companies have, when complete fucking idiots rise to the top?

Post: #219

(07-20-2014 06:18 AM)Icarus Wrote:  

(07-19-2014 09:23 PM)BigDave Wrote:  I don't blame Malaysia Air for what happened, as other airlines (KLM, Aeroflot, etc.) were flying over the same areas.

So, KLM and Aeroflot are also ruled by bean-counting morons, so Malaysia Airlines is OK? To save $1500 of fuel, they lost a plane over a warzone in which several military planes had been shot down with SAM's recently, but that's not their fault? Do they teach that in business school? Risk management 101? What kind of filter do these companies have, when complete fucking idiots rise to the top?

Agreed. I blame Malaysia airlines and the other airlines who were using that airspace. I blame both Ukraine and Russia for giving permission to use that airspace. I blame the America's FAA and the European equivalent agency for not banning the airspace. And I blame whoever gave the order to pull the trigger.

Post: #220

Is there any hope for Malaysia Airlines after this? I just can't see any single airline recovering from losing two full aircraft in half a year.

Post: #221

(07-20-2014 08:16 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Is there any hope for Malaysia Airlines after this? I just can't see any single airline recovering from losing two full aircraft in half a year.

It's a majority-state-owned enterprise, so it's up to the Government of Malaysia to decide whether to subsidize it or not.

Unlikely they would pull the plug on it, even though AirAsia is also a Malaysian company.

I was thinking of buying stock in it for that reason.

EDIT: checked the price out as traded on US exchanges (MLYAF): .08 per share, down from about .50 at the beginning of 2012. Could be a reasonable long-term bet at low cost.

Post: #222

I'm thinking of that too, but with my luck they'll probably have a third crash soon and I don't want to be responsible for any more deaths

Post: #223

(07-19-2014 03:02 PM)Orion Wrote:  ^^

Since when are republicans considered conservatives to RVF standards ? McCain couldn't even speak out against same sex marriages in front of Ellen Degeneres, but he chose to back down and try to make some verbal stunts in order to win favor of audiences. They are pathetic.

Let's see what their front page looks like after all, check out that completely unverified bullshit that they copied to their front page straight from an Ukrainian government propaganda statement ! Headline is self-explanatory melodramatic crap designed to inspire masses emotionally

For even more fun screen cap the USACNN website.

Post: #224

(07-20-2014 06:50 AM)William Windsor Wrote:  

(07-20-2014 06:18 AM)Icarus Wrote:  

(07-19-2014 09:23 PM)BigDave Wrote:  I don't blame Malaysia Air for what happened, as other airlines (KLM, Aeroflot, etc.) were flying over the same areas.

So, KLM and Aeroflot are also ruled by bean-counting morons, so Malaysia Airlines is OK? To save $1500 of fuel, they lost a plane over a warzone in which several military planes had been shot down with SAM's recently, but that's not their fault? Do they teach that in business school? Risk management 101? What kind of filter do these companies have, when complete fucking idiots rise to the top?

Agreed. I blame Malaysia airlines and the other airlines who were using that airspace. I blame both Ukraine and Russia for giving permission to use that airspace. I blame the America's FAA and the European equivalent agency for not banning the airspace. And I blame whoever gave the order to pull the trigger.

How does the FAA have any clout or pull over what a non-U.S. flagged carrier does outside U.S. airspace? As I am pretty sure that U.S. carriers had been banned from using that airspace.

Post: #225

(07-20-2014 04:34 AM)Chaos Wrote:  Dutch cyclist avoided death twice.
Rebooked tickets to both MH17 and MH370.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/dutc...d=24632968

Final Destination Game recognized.