Post: #176

(07-18-2014 06:56 PM)Vicious Wrote:  People using RT as a source are either; A) Ignorant of RT being fully sponsored by the Russian government and little more than a bullhorn for the Kremlin

Can't Kremlin-owned media raise valid questions? Since when is a question the same as a claim? Also:

1) Is the Kremlin the only interested party in this world?

2) Are The New York Times, The Washington Post, or The Economist 100% uninterested?

All media are in the propaganda business. Not only Russia Today.

Post: #177

So RT are the equivalent to what CNN is to the US government?
That's interesting and good to know.

(07-18-2014 06:56 PM)Vicious Wrote:  People using RT as a source are either;
A) Ignorant of RT being fully sponsored by the Russian government and little more than a bullhorn for the Kremlin
B) Aware of this yet ignore it since RT's press releases validate their predetermined world view.

Whichever the case it reflects poorly on said persons ability to partake in a debate.

Post: #178

(07-18-2014 07:12 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 06:56 PM)Vicious Wrote:  People using RT as a source are either; A) Ignorant of RT being fully sponsored by the Russian government and little more than a bullhorn for the Kremlin

Can't Kremlin-owned media raise valid questions? Since when is a question the same as a claim? Also:

1) Is the Kremlin the only interested party in this world?

2) Are The New York Times, The Washington Post, or The Economist 100% uninterested?

All media are in the propaganda business. Not only Russia Today.

Why are you assuming that because I doubt the veracity of RTs reporting I am by default supporting CNBC, CNN, The times, WP or The Economist?

To do that betrays one's own binary outlook on the issue, that it is a matter of sides to pick.

Post: #179

(07-18-2014 07:44 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Why are you assuming that because I doubt the veracity of RTs reporting I am by default supporting CNBC, CNN, The times, WP or The Economist?

Are you gonna post a warning every time someone posts an article from the NYTimes or the WashPost? The CNN is as ridiculous as RT, if not more. Even Russians themselves (the ones with a brain, at least) know that RT is full of propaganda. RT is the new Pravda. Here's a Soviet joke about Soviet newspapers:

"What is the difference between Pravda and Isvestia? In Pravda there is no news, in Izvestia there is no truth."

Note that in Russian, "pravda" = "truth" and "izvestia" = "news".

Post: #180

(07-18-2014 06:56 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 06:02 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 05:18 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Surely this forum should have higher standards than to use Russia Today as a source?

Interesting, vicious. Surely the source changes or alters the meaning behind the questions and Kiev is an innocent bystander that shouldn't be looked at critically? That's quite the western point of view you have. I'll be sure to check out cnbc or something like that so they can tell me what to think or give me a superficial view on things. Or maybe you can point me to the sources you approve of?

People using RT as a source are either;
A) Ignorant of RT being fully sponsored by the Russian government and little more than a bullhorn for the Kremlin
B) Aware of this yet ignore it since RT's press releases validate their predetermined world view.

Whichever the case it reflects poorly on said persons ability to partake in a debate.

A) I'm still waiting for your personally pre-approved unbiased and honest sources.
B) So far you've only used semantics to get away from the merits of the article. Instead of going after the source, go after the substance or don't tell me about what reflects poorly on my "ability to partake in a debate."

So to help get you on track we'll first need you to cite me some "unbiased and honest" sources that YOU, YOURSELF, use in regards to this situation in Ukraine... or for general use. I'll allow the typical BS sources that provide a superficial view with a subtle slant to help you out.

Secondly, we can then start "partaking" the debate by backtracking to the merits of the questions posed in that RT article since we need to get you into debating substance instead of dishing out semantics. Until then, I can't take you seriously.

Since you already confirmed that my "ability to partake in this debate" is reflected poorly, then you'll have an easy job debating me after we get up settled on the sources and up to par with the questions posed in the article.

Also note, the only person who liked your post is Mekorig. Weird, but he fits the bill of a person who has a pre-determined (anti-Russian) worldview.

Post: #181

Big Nilla, just to clarify, i do not have a "anti-russian" worldview, but anti-Putin. I have no beef or problem with Russia or its people. What i have problem is that some people seems to idolize a very cunning and intelligent, but in the end of the day, toxic, populist "strongman", figure that goes against all i belive is vital for a free and healthy democracy. I also am against the "oligarchs" that seems to appear in the region since the fall of the Soviet Union, and hope for the region to begin to weed on these kind of "strongmen" (the word i am looking for is "caudillo" in spanish when i refer to "strongmen".

Post: #182

Article: Donetsk militia takes control of Ukrainian anti-air installation, Voice of Russia, June 29, 2014

Photo of Article (stock Buk photo):



Quote: "'The forces of Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 military base,' the militia's representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems."

Conclusion: According to state-owned Russian media, the Donetsk Militia took possession of Buk surface-to-air missiles less than 3 weeks ago.

Post: #183

(07-18-2014 08:09 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  A) I'm still waiting for your personally pre-approved unbiased and honest sources.
B) So far you've only used semantics to get away from the merits of the article. Instead of going after the source, go after the substance or don't tell me about what reflects poorly on my "ability to partake in a debate."

So to help get you on track we'll first need you to cite me some "unbiased and honest" sources that YOU, YOURSELF, use in regards to this situation in Ukraine... or for general use. I'll allow the typical BS sources that provide a superficial view with a subtle slant to help you out.

Secondly, we can then start "partaking" the debate by backtracking to the merits of the questions posed in that RT article since we need to get you into debating substance instead of dishing out semantics. Until then, I can't take you seriously.

You can only take me seriously after I've answered to your laundry list of demands and questions from a Kremlin mouthpiece?

Cute.

Do this. Feel free to not take me seriously. I know I will not miss anything from the interaction.

Quote:Also note, the only person who liked your post is Mekorig. Weird, but he fits the bill of a person who has a pre-determined (anti-Russian) worldview.

So? Is that what this is to you, a competition over likes? Stick to Facebook.

Post: #184

(07-18-2014 07:56 PM)Icarus Wrote:  Are you gonna post a warning every time someone posts an article from the NYTimes or the WashPost?

I already have. Earlier in the thread, even before I jumped on RT, I called out the Guardian story of the likely fake "radio intercept" that painted Russia/separatists in bad light.

Post: #185

There's no way some backyard rebels did this by themselves.

Post: #186

From what I've been reading (links later) it appears that the separatists genuinely thought that it was a Ukrainian military transport aircraft. Apparently, Ukrainian transport aircraft have been air-dropping supplies to their fighters who are surrounded in separatist-held areas. So, the separatists were apparently hoping to interdict this and make a strong statement that eastern Ukraine belonged to them. If this is true, Ukraine's government should have known that their high-altitude transport missions might cause danger to transiting airliners and should have warned them off. So, IMO, both sides are culpable to varying degrees.

Post: #187

I agree that it seems that that the aircraft was shot down by Russian separatists by mistake. They thought that they were shooting down an aircraft that was supplying the Ukrainian military, and had no idea that international civilian planes would even be in the area. The Malaysia Airlines plane really should not have been flying over this region.

However, it seems that the western media is taking full advantage of the situation, using it demonise and marginalise Putin and the Russians in general (even though Russia would have absolutely nothing to gain from shooting down this civilian plane).

Post: #188

Mekorig - I don't believe in democracy, democracy brings feminism and war. Some populations can't live under democracy, they need dictators see - Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Egypt, Libya, Congo, Tunisia, Algeria for more

Post: #189

Even if the separatists did shoot the airplane by mistake, the blame still lies fully with the Kiev government.

To put it in very simple terms:

1. The Kiev military aircraft flies over the separatists during the past few months and shoots at them from the sky.
2. The separatists shoot back to the aircraft in the sky.
3. The Kiev regime deliberately diverts civilian airplanes to a war zone where they know aircraft is being shot at (and so far 10 of them have fallen down). They effectively sacrificed 300 passengers to make the separatists and Russia look bad.

Post: #190

Here's another one for Mekorig: the Kiev/Lvov junta which you so love shelled Lugansk yesterday:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28363086
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0ae_1405699122
http://rt.com/news/173812-ukraine-lugans...ng-killed/

Notice the BBC headline - Lugansk has been "retaken" because in the West's eyes, Kiev/Lvov are the "good guys."

Post: #191

DaveR, Bojangles, maybe we can argue our diferences on the conflict on its respective board.
But to finish:
Bojangles, i do not know your background, but i can assure you that a dictatorship it is something you do not want, my country suffered one, and while i am not one of the pinko commies that keep crying about it in my country, i acknowledge that it almost destroyed my country, and generated wounds that are still healing.
DaveR: Do you belive that i like the fact that the Ukranian Army have to shell their own territory to fight terrorist that also shell them, hide their position among civilians, and dont care about it? it is a tragedy, and i have to admit that i am impressed so far with the low killing number among civilians, taking in count the citi`s population and density. That means that the Army is taking steps to improve the accuracy and reduce the collateral damage to the civilian population, unlike the terrrorists.

Post: #192

(07-19-2014 07:18 AM)bojangles Wrote:  Some populations can't live under democracy, they need dictators see - Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Egypt, Libya, Congo, Tunisia, Algeria for more

Indeed, all those countries are failed experiments in democracy.

Post: #193

(07-19-2014 10:31 AM)Mekorig Wrote:  DaveR: Do you belive that i like the fact that the Ukranian Army have to shell their own territory to fight terrorist that also shell them, hide their position among civilians, and dont care about it? it is a tragedy, and i have to admit that i am impressed so far with the low killing number among civilians, taking in count the citi`s population and density. That means that the Army is taking steps to improve the accuracy and reduce the collateral damage to the civilian population, unlike the terrrorists.

You're repeating the same BS line that you have for the past three months. There are no terrorists in Donetsk. Watch the VICE videos - Ostrovsky has tried very hard to find them and there aren't any. Lvov had its revolution.. Why can't Donetsk have theirs?

You can blame the shooting down of MH17 entirely on the Kiev junta. It was their actions that set all the conditions for that to happen. Without their jets bombing civilians for the past couple months, there would have been no SAMs in use.

Also, the idea that the Banderite military is doing a good job of minimising civilian casualties is ridiculous. They don't even give any warning to civilians before initiating bombing raids and shelling.

Post: #194

(07-18-2014 08:51 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(07-18-2014 08:09 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  A) I'm still waiting for your personally pre-approved unbiased and honest sources.
B) So far you've only used semantics to get away from the merits of the article. Instead of going after the source, go after the substance or don't tell me about what reflects poorly on my "ability to partake in a debate."

So to help get you on track we'll first need you to cite me some "unbiased and honest" sources that YOU, YOURSELF, use in regards to this situation in Ukraine... or for general use. I'll allow the typical BS sources that provide a superficial view with a subtle slant to help you out.

Secondly, we can then start "partaking" the debate by backtracking to the merits of the questions posed in that RT article since we need to get you into debating substance instead of dishing out semantics. Until then, I can't take you seriously.

You can only take me seriously after I've answered to your laundry list of demands and questions from a Kremlin mouthpiece?

Cute.

Do this. Feel free to not take me seriously. I know I will not miss anything from the interaction.

Quote:Also note, the only person who liked your post is Mekorig. Weird, but he fits the bill of a person who has a pre-determined (anti-Russian) worldview.

So? Is that what this is to you, a competition over likes? Stick to Facebook.

Of course I didn't and won't take you seriously. I've seen enough of your posts to know you like jumping into threads with snarky retorts without adding any substance. Since you insinuated I'm ignorant compared to you and "my" sources are biased horseshit, you should've had a field day with me. But instead, you run away.

Anyway, thanks for not wasting more of my time. If I want to battle it out with snark and mocking I'd rather do it with an American girl than a swedish guy who isn't as seasoned.

Coming up next... an unapproved infowars link (just for you).

Post: #195

Unapproved and bias source haha...

http://www.infowars.com/kiev-losing-sanc...r-back-on/

Quote: Kiev Losing, Sanctions Flopped, Airliner Down, War Back On?

With Kiev’s forces being encircled and decimated in eastern Ukraine, western Ukrainians in Kiev protesting the war, and US sanctions receiving global ridicule as feckless – the downing of a Malaysian Boeing 777 airliner with over 280 on board in eastern Ukraine – allegedly shot down over a conflict zone – will undoubtedly be exploited by NATO to vilify Kiev’s opponents, particularly fighters in the east and Russia who NATO accuses of “destabilizing eastern Ukraine.”

Preceding the downing of Malaysian flight MH17, just hours beforehand, Ukraine claimed Russia had shot down one of its SU-25 ground attack aircraft. The BBC’s article, “Ukraine conflict: Russia accused of shooting down jet,”...

This isn't the main point of the article but in the first sentence it talks about Kiev's warriors being encircled and getting slaughtered. I've seen this mentioned in other media, but not the unbiased western media.

Western Ukrainians protesting the war and wanting their babies back and away from the frontlines... again, seen in other sources (biased I'm sure), but not unbiased western mainstream media.

The USA and it's efforts to globalize the sanctions are/were fizzling out... this is common knowledge, but not in western mainstream media. They act like these sanctions are devastating Russia and scaring Putin.

Post: #196

DaveR, whatever rings your bell. I have my opinion based on fcts, not only from western sources. You have yours, and both are subjetive.

In other things, the video shows people getting debris from the crash on trucks. Does not hinder the investigation process?

Post: #197

Here's the list of passengers and crew [pdf].

I have already checked the list to see if any chicks I have banged were on board.

Post: #198

(07-19-2014 12:47 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  



DaveR, whatever rings your bell. I have my opinion based on fcts, not only from western sources. You have yours, and both are subjetive.

In other things, the video shows people getting debris from the crash on trucks. Does not hinder the investigation process?

Keep in mind that around 100 Western Ukrainians (many of whom were neo-nazis) died on Maidan while fighting an elected government and it was all over the Western news for weeks. 40 civilians died yesterday in Lugansk while going about their daily lives - and there's barely a peep.

The following goes a long way towards explaining why: http://medialens.org/index.php/bookshop/...-guys.html

Post: #199

Another western RT presenter resigns:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/...15489.html

Looks like another one got feed up of the bullcrap RT spews about the conflict.

Post: #200

(07-19-2014 01:14 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  Another western RT presenter resigns

Funny how Thomas Friedman never resigned from the NYTimes even though he actively and publicly supported the invasion of Iraq. Hey, Mr. Friedman, how's democracy in Iraq going?