Post: #1

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBR...7?irpc=932

KIEV/DONETSK, Ukraine (Reuters) - Pro-Moscow protesters in eastern Ukraine seized arms in one city and declared a separatist republic in another, in moves Kiev described on Monday as part of a Russian-orchestrated plan to justify an invasion to dismember the country.

Post: #2

Edit: Misspelled "Secession"

Post: #3

I'm sure these pro-Moscow Russian-speakers were unlike the Ukraine nationalists who acted as EU/Washington agents. No, definitely no Russian mingling here. Can't be. It's all MSM parroting imperial US lies. The Russians have a history (much worse than the US) of duplicitous, atrocious, downright disgusting international meddling. Just read up on Katyn or Afghanistan. Both of these "Soviet" (which is just Russian) crimes should really be a friendly reminder to anyone sensing proper motives.

Russia really has a bunker mentality, where the largest, most resource-rich country on earth is under attack from "the West". What victims. Victims with tanks.

Post: #4

(04-07-2014 10:36 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  Edit: Misspelled "Secession"

Don't worry, jim does it all the time with "succession"

Post: #5

(04-13-2014 12:16 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

(04-07-2014 10:36 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  Edit: Misspelled "Secession"

Don't worry, jim does it all the time with "succession"

lol..to me it would be success haha

Quote:I'm sure these pro-Moscow Russian-speakers were unlike the Ukraine nationalists who acted as EU/Washington agents. No, definitely no Russian mingling here. Can't be. It's all MSM parroting imperial US lies. The Russians have a history (much worse than the US) of duplicitous, atrocious, downright disgusting international meddling. Just read up on Katyn or Afghanistan. Both of these "Soviet" (which is just Russian) crimes should really be a friendly reminder to anyone sensing proper motives.

See your point. That makes it even funnier.When EU does it..it is freedom. When Russia does it they are wrong and supporting terrorists.
In the west's view it is ok the spend 5 billion and support pro EU protesters against the legitimate elected leader. Even give out cookies and MC cAIN" WE ARE ALL a holes" speech. Add in threat of sanctions if police attack the Molotov cocktail throwing radicals. Oh yeah... they never even had a EU history.
Russian is accused of wrong doing if it supports pro Russian protesters who just happen to be either Russians or Russian cultured Ukrainians. I don't think Russia is giving 5 billion. Nor do I see Lavrov giving out vodka saying "we are all Russians"..wait they are Russians though lol.

Post: #6

Quote:See your point. That makes it even funnier.When EU does it..it is freedom. When Russia does it they are wrong and supporting terrorists.
In the west's view it is ok the spend 5 billion and support pro EU protesters against the legitimate elected leader. Even give out cookies and MC cAIN" WE ARE ALL a holes" speech. Add in threat of sanctions if police attack the Molotov cocktail throwing radicals. Oh yeah... they never even had a EU history.
Russian is accused of wrong doing if it supports pro Russian protesters who just happen to be either Russians or Russian cultured Ukrainians. I don't think Russia is giving 5 billion. Nor do I see Lavrov giving out vodka saying "we are all Russians"..wait they are Russians though lol.

I'm not defending EU/US agitators.

I do rate the Eurocrats over Putin's Russia though. Russia needs a reality check, they have the biggest country on earth, huge resources, huge population and all the power they need. They should back off of sovereign nations, and they need to be told to back the fuck down. Nobody's 'attacking' Russia, whatever paranoid loose-change type nuts want to make us believe on all sorts of altmedia.

Russia's leaders are the kind of guys who only understand force and only back down when you show muscle. Otherwise they'll just take whatever they can. This is not a 'normal' secession movement like Slovakia and Czech Republic; Russia's agitating w/ huge army buildups on the borders, radicalizing minority groups abroad. (Yeah, Ukrainians do that too. Wonder why? They've been ruled by Soviets (=Russians/communists) for a century.)

A month ago lots of people here said Putin would stop at Crimea, being Russian et al, now there are clear beginnings of E-Ukraine annexations and it's still just a valid secession movement? No way.

Post: #7

(04-14-2014 05:02 AM)Maciano Wrote:  Nobody's 'attacking' Russia, whatever paranoid loose-change type nuts want to make us believe

When Estonia joined NATO in 2004, NATO's borders were suddenly only 130 Km away from Saint Petersburg! A fast F-15 flying at Mach 2.5 can cover that distance in only 3 minutes!!! That is some 180 seconds to react to an incursion into Russian airspace. Think about it.

Post: #8

(04-14-2014 05:02 AM)Maciano Wrote:  I do rate the Eurocrats over Putin's Russia though. Russia needs a reality check

Reality is, Russian security threats are considerable. It was proven through many internal conflicts, through high threat and high amount of casualties from terrorism, and through constant efforts of NATO to threaten and dismantle Russian nucler triad: missile shields, penetration of "Bastion" et cetera.

So not only is it reality, but NATO is actively, on the field, working to dismantle and make obsolete Russian defensive capacities.

Quote: they have the biggest country on earth

Majority of Russian power, infrastructure and GDP is in Europe.

Quote: huge population

Nope, population is declining and aging, severing capacities and size of their forces.

Quote:Russia's leaders are the kind of guys who only understand force and only back down when you show muscle.

Unfortunately, only thing i can say to this is that Hollywood and media are doing excellent job with this portrayal.

Quote:A month ago lots of people here said Putin would stop at Crimea, being Russian et al, now there are clear beginnings of E-Ukraine annexations and it's still just a valid secession movement? No way.

It's as valid as everything else in Ukraine nowadays. Why is all of the sudden current Ukrainian government cute little snowflake, and west just curious observers ? They acted. Now comes reaction. Whoever expected no reaction is naive or dishonest.

Post: #9

^^^^No one can predict Putin..but I don't think he is grabbing E UA.There isn't enough support there for it. In fact looking at the videos those bands of gunman don't look as disciplined as the guys in Crimea.
Lets not forget Red sector is also "coordinated". I can't see how hundreds of intel officers would volunteer for a suicide mission. In Crimea very little risk since it was under Russian control anyway. In Donetsk...if fighting breaks out.. all those alleged Russian operatives will be dead even before Russia could respond.
I look at what is happening as Pro Russian version of Maiden.

As or 40k at the border, that is NOT really big. Sure they are there to scare Kiev . Also to help secure Crimea from a southbound attack. I also think they aren't ever going to disband as long as NATO is doing their own exercises in the area.
Here is what might happen. Ukraine comes in kills those guys. Russia bitches to UN about it. They decide unilaterally just like NATO did to criminalize kiev gov't for its actions and move in. Might be cruise missiles and bunker bombs dropped on Kiev! This way they show that they are doing western tactics and get rid of the kiev authorities.

Post: #10

   

Post: #11

The way things are going, I am starting to doubt Turchinov and Co have any real means or plans to crush the uprising in the East. These guys issue a deadline to protesters, it passes, they issue another deadline, everyone just shrugs them off now. On Sunday they sent a couple of cars with Alfa people to Slavyansk, got as far as checkpoint, had a firefight with one dead and 2 wounded, and that was it. Today Turchinov called the UN chief and asked to send in their anti-terrorist forces. LOL. What happened to all the nationalists from Lviv, no balls?
Soon the factories will be stopping, people will be running out of cash, and the order will start breaking down. Then Russians can send a humanitarian mission with mobile kitchens to the East and restore order.

Post: #12

(04-14-2014 01:25 PM)rover Wrote:  The way things are going, I am starting to doubt Turchinov and Co have any real means or plans to crush the uprising in the East. These guys issue a deadline to protesters, it passes, they issue another deadline, everyone just shrugs them off now. On Sunday they sent a couple of cars with Alfa people to Slavyansk, got as far as checkpoint, had a firefight with one dead and 2 wounded, and that was it. Today Turchinov called the UN chief and asked to send in their anti-terrorist forces. LOL. What happened to all the nationalists from Lviv, no balls?
Soon the factories will be stopping, people will be running out of cash, and the order will start breaking down. Then Russians can send a humanitarian mission with mobile kitchens to the East and restore order.

Part of the problem is that non of the promised "loans" have been given to Ukraine yet. Also since the west isn't really backing Ukraine militarily..what can they do?
I don't see how any non NATO post soviet country will ever lean towards the west and away from Russia in the future knowing that Russia can "GET" them.

Post: #13

"It's as valid as everything else in Ukraine nowadays. Why is all of the sudden current Ukrainian government cute little snowflake, and west just curious observers ? They acted. Now comes reaction. Whoever expected no reaction is naive or dishonest."

What's dishonest is first arguing Putin wasn't hot for E-Ukraine from the get-go & Crimea was a historical wrong set right, and now arguing Ukraine & West provoked Russian aggression so now must bleed for their sins. Russia has a history of treating its neighbours like shit, ranging from treating them like satellite states to all-out mass murder for some kooky cause their leaders were hot for at the time. Ukraine, Baltics, Poland, etc. don't fear their hegemonic neighbour for nothing. That's why NATO's expanding: these countries WANT to be in NATO, because it sucks so much to be in Russia's sphere of influence.

I commend the Russians for straightening themselves out after communism and feel bad the way their country got plundered in the 90s, but what's happening now is not justifiable. The Russians should take some lessons in humility from the Germans, they've shown sincere regret in word and deed, real change towards their neighbours after '45. The Russians never showed any humility for those they wronged or aggressed against. They impoverished half of the European continent for their moronic mix of imperialism, Stalinism and similar shit that never did anyone any good. There's a reason why a country like Poland is way behind Belgium.

Yeah, our media is a laughable puppet show who focus on Putin's harsh line re gays, Greenpeace et al, but that's missing the other show that's playing: real Russian aggression. And it must be stopped harshly.

Post: #14

(04-14-2014 05:02 AM)Maciano Wrote:  

Quote:See your point. That makes it even funnier.When EU does it..it is freedom. When Russia does it they are wrong and supporting terrorists.
In the west's view it is ok the spend 5 billion and support pro EU protesters against the legitimate elected leader. Even give out cookies and MC cAIN" WE ARE ALL a holes" speech. Add in threat of sanctions if police attack the Molotov cocktail throwing radicals. Oh yeah... they never even had a EU history.
Russian is accused of wrong doing if it supports pro Russian protesters who just happen to be either Russians or Russian cultured Ukrainians. I don't think Russia is giving 5 billion. Nor do I see Lavrov giving out vodka saying "we are all Russians"..wait they are Russians though lol.

I'm not defending EU/US agitators.

I do rate the Eurocrats over Putin's Russia though. Russia needs a reality check, they have the biggest country on earth, huge resources, huge population and all the power they need. They should back off of sovereign nations, and they need to be told to back the fuck down. Nobody's 'attacking' Russia, whatever paranoid loose-change type nuts want to make us believe on all sorts of altmedia.

Russia's leaders are the kind of guys who only understand force and only back down when you show muscle. Otherwise they'll just take whatever they can. This is not a 'normal' secession movement like Slovakia and Czech Republic; Russia's agitating w/ huge army buildups on the borders, radicalizing minority groups abroad. (Yeah, Ukrainians do that too. Wonder why? They've been ruled by Soviets (=Russians/communists) for a century.)

A month ago lots of people here said Putin would stop at Crimea, being Russian et al, now there are clear beginnings of E-Ukraine annexations and it's still just a valid secession movement? No way.

This is a real facepalm, even the people on BBC articles could see the erroneous ways of the west, more than 80% of the UK would rather have Putin as their leader than another other politician. Says a lot.

Post: #15

(04-14-2014 01:46 PM)Maciano Wrote:  "It's as valid as everything else in Ukraine nowadays. Why is all of the sudden current Ukrainian government cute little snowflake, and west just curious observers ? They acted. Now comes reaction. Whoever expected no reaction is naive or dishonest."

What's dishonest is first arguing Putin wasn't hot for E-Ukraine from the get-go & Crimea was a historical wrong set right, and now arguing Ukraine & West provoked Russian aggression so now must bleed for their sins. Russia has a history of treating its neighbours like shit, ranging from treating them like satellite states to all-out mass murder for some kooky cause their leaders were hot for at the time. Ukraine, Baltics, Poland, etc. don't fear their hegemonic neighbour for nothing. That's why NATO's expanding: these countries WANT to be in NATO, because it sucks so much to be in Russia's sphere of influence.

I commend the Russians for straightening themselves out after communism and feel bad the way their country got plundered in the 90s, but what's happening now is not justifiable. The Russians should take some lessons in humility from the Germans, they've shown sincere regret in word and deed, real change towards their neighbours after '45. The Russians never showed any humility for those they wronged or aggressed against. They impoverished half of the European continent for their moronic mix of imperialism, Stalinism and similar shit that never did anyone any good. There's a reason why a country like Poland is way behind Belgium.

Yeah, our media is a laughable puppet show who focus on Putin's harsh line re gays, Greenpeace et al, but that's missing the other show that's playing: real Russian aggression. And it must be stopped harshly.

What aggression? They were already in Crimea and it was theirs to begin with.Again US would do the same if our border countries were going to join a military block against us.Crimean wanted to leave Ukraine.
In Eastern Ukraine the most they are doing is supporting and funding the protesters. That is the same as west is doing when they support pro EU protesters.
As for asking Russians to apologize..for what? Stalin was Georgian btw. The Russians moved into Warsaw pact countries to form a buffer but those countries historically weren't peaceful to Russia.
Poland and Lithuania had attacked Russia multiple times in history. Hungary and Romania (Italians too)were part of the Nazi war machine that launched offensive into Ukraine and Russia.
It is a known fact that the West has attacked Russia multiple times and that Russia counterattacked.
As for being in NATO... very small % of Ukrainians or even Georgians wanted to be in NATO. It is only the western supporting puppet gov't that wanted that.Same with most FSU countries. Warsaw and Baltic counties of course it is different.
Most powers treat smaller countries around them as satellites though out history..nothing new there. US had Monroe doctrine and manifest destiny.

Quote:here's an article:
I grew up in the Soviet Union, where educated people knew that propaganda is full of lies. However, if anyone told me that ?Western? (i.e., US and European) media would shamelessly spread blatant lies that they do today regarding the Ukrainian crisis, I would not believe it. Now I know better.
Ukraine was and is extremely heterogenous. It consisted of five distinct areas. One is the East and South, where most of industry is, which never spoke Ukrainian and never will. I was born in the West, in Lvov, and my parents moved to the East (Lugansk, close to my mother's birthplace) when I was about six. The Ukrainian teacher in school loved me because I was the only kid in class who could speak proper Ukrainian. Western Ukraine speaks several dialects of Ukrainian. Historically, they fought in WWI and WWII on the side of Germany, against Russia. Hence their loyalties. There is central Ukraine, which speaks what is considered literary Ukrainian and is in between in every way. There is also the part to the West of Carpatian Mountains, where people have their own dialect, which is closer to Russian than Ukrainian, and where many speak Hungarian and Romanian. They hate Western Ukrainians as much as Easterners do, due to their history in WWII. There was Crimea, which was not Ukraine at all, where ~80% of people speak Russian and 12-15% are Tatars.
Throughout its brief and inglorious history since 1991 Ukraine had two main problems: the governments were corrupt and very stupid. They pushed things that divided people, rather than those that unite them, as a reasonable government should in such a heterogenous country. Yanukovych and his gang were thieves, but West's darling Timoshenko is one of the greatest thieves in Ukrainian history. Now they appointed lesser thieves, oligarchs, as governors of Eastern regions "to normalize the situation". If they consider rampant thievery normal, what was their problem with Yanukovych? At least he was elected, whereas they are totally illegitimate by any Ukrainian constitution. What?s more, there was never quorum in Rada after February 21st, so all its decisions are equally illegitimate according to Ukrainian law. Why this does not seem to bother Western ?defenders? of law?
Precarious balance in Ukraine was upset by heavy foreign interference, in the form of paying for ?protesters? who spend months on the Maidan ostensibly without any income, and by direct visits of US and EU officials to the Maidan: Nuland from the US State Department, US senator McCain, and German Chancellor Merkel. Symmetrical moves from Russia would be visits by Putin, Medvedev, Lavrov, or members of Russian Duma to the barricades in Kharkov, Donetsk, or Lugansk, but none of them is dumb enough or shameless enough to do that. Only someone clinically stupid, totally ignorant of Ukrainian reality, or both, could have interfered the way the US and EU did in Ukraine. No wonder the result is a total disaster: Ukraine is disintegrating, going the way of Somalia and Libia, where senseless interference by Western ?democrats? also destroyed precarious balance without creating anything viable to replace it. US/EU interference had a negative impact on the whole post-Soviet region. All local dictators now get free PR without any need to lie: just showing what Kiev looks like now, or pointing out what miserable nonentities US/EU installed as Ukrainian ?leaders?, or describing the crimes their fathers and grandfathers committed while eagerly serving Hitler in WWII.
Current "government" in Kiev came to power thanks to armed support of the Right Sector. Those guys aren't even neo-Nazis, they are old-fashioned traditional Nazis. They openly worship as heroes Hitler's allies and those who served in the Waffen SS division Galichina, which Hitler used to punish civilian populations on occupied territories. Those "heroes" conducted ethnic cleansing of Poles in Western Ukraine, murdered thousands of Poles, Slovaks, and Ukrainians, some on Hitler's orders, some on their own initiative. As soon as they came to power, they showed their true colors by repealing the law on regional languages, which actually triggered the explosion against them in Crimea and South-East.
I am sure that without federalization Ukraine is dead in the water. I am beginning to think that US and EU puppet masters and their puppets in Kiev have already passed the point of no return, and that now even federalization cannot save Ukraine as a single state. Putin is patient, as the time works in his favor, but if Western Ukrainian Nazis start mass murders (which they were best known for when they served Hitler), he will have no choice but to interfere. The best advice I can give to the US and EU is this: do not let your puppets provoke Putin, or better yet, replace those nonentities with people who command respect of at least some Ukrainians.'

Post: #16

"This is a real facepalm, even the people on BBC articles could see the erroneous ways of the west, more than 80% of the UK would rather have Putin as their leader than another other politician. Says a lot. "

I've noticed a trend among Westerners that they've become so disgusted w/ their own leaders (for stuff like Iraq, EU denationalization and bail-outs) that they distrust everything abt their govs. It's Western-centrism: everything that happens in the world, right or wrong, is our doing.

No. Countries like Russia and China are independent actors and they can be as bad as the US can be.

Post: #17

(04-14-2014 02:24 PM)Maciano Wrote:  "This is a real facepalm, even the people on BBC articles could see the erroneous ways of the west, more than 80% of the UK would rather have Putin as their leader than another other politician. Says a lot. "

I've noticed a trend among Westerners that they've become so disgusted w/ their own leaders (for stuff like Iraq, EU denationalization and bail-outs) that they distrust everything abt their govs. It's Western-centrism: everything that happens in the world, right or wrong, is our doing.

No. Countries like Russia and China are independent actors and they can be as bad as the US can be.

Agreed.
Problem is US used the end of the cold war to make it so it is the only dominate force on earth, and will do anything to remain so.China maybe wants that in the future. Russia just wants to keep its local regional power.
NATO expansion not only threatens that but part of the agenda is to get to the Caspian and take away energy profits from Russia. Obviously this will put Russian in dire straits. So what else are they to do?
Geopolitical movements is rarely about right vs wrong..its about national self interests and survival.

Post: #18

(04-14-2014 01:46 PM)Maciano Wrote:  What's dishonest is first arguing Putin wasn't hot for E-Ukraine from the get-go & Crimea was a historical wrong set right, and now arguing Ukraine & West provoked Russian aggression so now must bleed for their sins.

They did not provoke Russian aggression, they provoked Russian response. Now we may argue that soft power response was possible, but soft power is privilege (as i argued earlier), not an option. Soft power only works when no one challenges hard power. By assuming Russian will buy western guarantees in Crimea, they challenged Russia's determination to utilize real military power.

Russians did not have option to chose when to react in Crimea. They could have done it now or never. Because later, when Kiev would suddenly in couple of years cancel lease of Sevastopol for blabla reasons, it would be too late to intervene.

Quote: Russia has a history of treating its neighbours like shit, ranging from treating them like satellite states to all-out mass murder for some kooky cause their leaders were hot for at the time. Ukraine, Baltics, Poland, etc. don't fear their hegemonic neighbour for nothing. That's why NATO's expanding: these countries WANT to be in NATO, because it sucks so much to be in Russia's sphere of influence.

I don't argue Polish or Baltic desires to be members of NATO. However, they suffered at the hands of Germans too, so "yeah Russians treated them badly" is not a valid argument. Because Germans treated them badly X3, and yet they are in NATO. It's interest and ideology. Enemy of that ideology is Russia too (they way they perceive it, and Poles are quite passionately bitter and hateful towards Russians). Just check their newspaper headlines.

Quote:I commend the Russians for straightening themselves out after communism and feel bad the way their country got plundered in the 90s, but what's happening now is not justifiable.

From perspective of a Swiss or Chinese yes. From perspective of American and Russian, it is very justifiable.

Quote:The Russians should take some lessons in humility from the Germans,

Germans cannot afford anything else but to be humble, because of their very poor strategic position. Russians don't want to be humble, particularly not towards satellite states of Eastern Europe.

Quote:they've shown sincere regret in word and deed, real change towards their neighbours after '45

.

Well, they did bomb Yugoslavia. And are still quite proud about it. Change is rather cosmetic.

Quote: The Russians never showed any humility for those they wronged or aggressed against. They impoverished half of the European continent for their moronic mix of imperialism, Stalinism and similar shit that never did anyone any good. There's a reason why a country like Poland is way behind Belgium.

Show me one, just one nation that showed humility, and that it did not do so because it was defeated. Germany was defeated, so was Japan, so was Serbia, so was Italy, so were Hutu in Rwanda etc etc. America never showed any regret or humility for it's deeds. Because America never lost. So yeah, if i was landlocked country in central Europe, i would show humility too.

Quote:Yeah, our media is a laughable puppet show who focus on Putin's harsh line re gays, Greenpeace et al, but that's missing the other show that's playing: real Russian aggression. And it must be stopped harshly.

Give me one good reason to stop Russian aggression. And now i don't want "because it is morally good" kind of justification. I want benefits.

And I'm not talking only about Russians. Give me one good reason to stop Americans in Afghanistan, give me a good reason to stop French in Africa.

I don't want west to defeat Russia, or Russia to defeat west. For my own reasons, some of them selfish, but i don't. I don't further western expansion into EE. West wants to expand in Africa or Middle East ? Fine, go ahead.

Post: #19

"As for asking Russians to apologize..for what? Stalin was Georgian btw. The Russians moved into Warsaw pact countries to form a buffer but those countries historically weren't peaceful to Russia."

For crying out loud... The Russians have a violent imperialist past like most other Euro-countries; historically average Russians were serfs: slaves. Besides that, in 20th century, they've been prime responsible for the Holodomor, the Katyn-massacre, whole displacements of peoples, the Gulag Archipelago, the enslavement of E Europe for 50 years, and countless of other stuff. The US has not got that great a record either, but it's nothing as bad as that.

Btw, you really think Putin would let Siberia go if they voted "YES!" in a secession referendum? Or Chechnya?

Post: #20

"Give me one good reason to stop Russian aggression. And now i don't want "because it is morally good" kind of justification. I want benefits."

How about civilization?

FTR, I did NOT mean the West should aggress or attack Russia! I'm absolutely against senseless war. I want the West to treat Russia like a nation that stepped out of line and to change its ways for the better.

A first good move would be to undo us from the oil/gas dependency. (And while we're at it, I've kind of had it with those Saudi parasites too.)

Post: #21

(04-14-2014 02:37 PM)Maciano Wrote:  "As for asking Russians to apologize..for what? Stalin was Georgian btw. The Russians moved into Warsaw pact countries to form a buffer but those countries historically weren't peaceful to Russia."

For crying out loud... The Russians have a violent imperialist past like most other Euro-countries; historically average Russians were serfs: slaves. Besides that, in 20th century, they've been prime responsible for the Holodomor, the Katyn-massacre, whole displacements of peoples, the Gulag Archipelago, the enslavement of E Europe for 50 years, and countless of other stuff. The US has not got that great a record either, but it's nothing as bad as that.

Btw, you really think Putin would let Siberia go if they voted "YES!" in a secession referendum? Or Chechnya?

No they wouldn't I agree. Would US allow Iowa to become an Islamic state?
Chechnya belongs to Russia, so does Siberia. We can't go back too far or else US needs to leave US to the Native Americans.
Crimea was won by Russia long ago. They lost lives in multiple wars fighting for it. It was given away as a gift in the post WW2 world where this type of stuff isn't suppose to happen. The Soviet constitution didn't make it legal to do it.
But again..national security trumps everything
No one is denying" Might makes right". Would US attack or bomb countries if it had the might of Grenada?
I agree with you about ALL aggression and political manipulation needs to stop. But if one side(NATO/US/EU) is doing it, regardless of "2 wrongs don't make a right", other side also needs to take off the gloves or else left behind.
I should add that Russia was bitching like a little girl for months. They requested to be involved in the EU/UA talks. They diplomatically discussed their concerns,to deaf ears.
All their diplomacy and soft power went nowhere.

Post: #22

(04-14-2014 02:43 PM)Maciano Wrote:  How about civilization?

Which one ? Western ?

Quote:FTR, I did NOT mean the West should aggress or attack Russia! I'm absolutely against senseless war. I want the West to treat Russia like a nation that stepped out of line and to change its ways for the better.

Ok, i want west to stop stepping out of the line itself.

Quote:A first good move would be to undo us from the oil/gas dependency. (And while we're at it, I've kind of had it with those Saudi parasites too.)

Yes, but Saudi parasites are useful idiots. They are solely and personally (together with Qatar) orchestrating 90% of world's Islamic terrorism. Yet, they were allowed to arm themselves to their teeth. Now that's some priority list.

Post: #23

(04-14-2014 02:37 PM)Maciano Wrote:  For crying out loud... The Russians have a violent imperialist past like most other Euro-countries; historically average Russians were serfs: slaves. Besides that, in 20th century, they've been prime responsible for the Holodomor, the Katyn-massacre, whole displacements of peoples, the Gulag Archipelago, the enslavement of E Europe for 50 years, and countless of other stuff. The US has not got that great a record either, but it's nothing as bad as that.

Empires all have violent past, especially those with a lot of small pesky neighbours. The USA is a bit lucky in this regard due to its geography. Every country had some form of slavery in the past, what is your point, are you hating on the USA brothers too because their ancestors were mostly brought in as slaves? You seem to be very one-sidedly educated, which is quite common among small satellite countries who are passed from one block to another like a whore in a brothel, since the new governments are always forced to educate their people how their old master was all bad but the new one is all good. It's just a propaganda machine, some learn to read beyond it, most don't.

Post: #24

I've been out of the loop on this. Can someone break down the current situation?

Post: #25

(04-14-2014 03:17 PM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  I've been out of the loop on this. Can someone break down the current situation?