(02-14-2014 02:29 PM)Onto Wrote:  .... The technology (exchanges) might even get bought by a consortium of banks or who knows. But what happens to the holders of the Bitcoins? Who is guaranteeing their rights to their investments and that they will ge paid appropriately? ....

Can you clarify the argument about buying exchanges?

Nor the value or the technology of bitcoin is in the exchanges. For people believing in bitcoin, the exchanges are the weakest link in what they else consider a valuable financial platform.

If the exchanges were bought, of course the owner of the exchanges would get paid. But the value of each bitcoin would remain the same a part from some speculation on the price of the exchange.

Or am I misunderstanding your point of view here?

(02-14-2014 02:29 PM)Onto Wrote:  You might be right that Bitcoin will be used as an intemediary payment system worldwide. The technology (exchanges) might even get bought by a consortium of banks or who knows. But what happens to the holders of the Bitcoins? Who is gaurenteeing their rights to their investments and that they will ge paid appropriately?

What's to stop the international financial community from developing their own Bitcoin technology? What would happen to Bitcoin holders then?

I don't mean to be a naysayer, but when I look at Bitcoin as an investment these are the things I think of.

It is possible that banks could buy the exchanges but that wouldn't give them a monopoly position in the exchange markets because new exchange entreprises would just pop up if they would try to manipulate the exchange prices above the market price. If they tried to sell below -- well then they would lose A LOT of money. Also, bitcoin exchange is not the only source for transfers, you can trade bitcoins with anyone who has bitcoins and wants other currency. For this there is localbitcoins.com where you can search for local sellers/buyers.

These exchange companies are just convenient. You have the power over your bitcoins, not them, not anyone else. The bitcoins you have in your wallet can only be handled by you, and they are as secure as you want to be. When people sell or buy bitcoins, people are following the market price which driven by demand and supply. Your investment is determined by the market, not by any centralized authority.

Any government can build their own virtual currency, in fact I think Scottish people are building scotcoin, and Icelanders have their own too. The source code is open source which means anyone can build new coins with new parameters and variables as they may. But does that mean anything? It means that people can create new currencies for very specific purposes, i.e there is a stealthcoin which completely anonymous and then there are new coins which are very well build for smartcontracts(a new blockchain innovation).

Bitcoin is not the best coin out there. It doesn't have the best qualities or the features. But it has ADOPTION. These coins can be ultimately awesome -- but unless people want to use them, they have no value. Governments can build their own virtual currency and even "ban" bitcoin, but you cannot really ban bitcoin because there is no way to stop people from using it like there is no way to stop people from using bittorrent. In fact, history has proved that once government tries to make something illegal, it just increases in value(i.e drugs).

Great questions. Bitcoin takes time to grasp because there is so much more in it than just the currency aspect. One of the best bitcoin introductions I have heard is this one from Joe Rogan's podcast, it is almost 3 hours but worth listening to. http://youtu.be/1cexawnOlR8

(02-14-2014 03:06 PM)pants Wrote:  

(02-14-2014 02:29 PM)Onto Wrote:  .... The technology (exchanges) might even get bought by a consortium of banks or who knows. But what happens to the holders of the Bitcoins? Who is guaranteeing their rights to their investments and that they will ge paid appropriately? ....

Can you clarify the argument about buying exchanges?

Nor the value or the technology of bitcoin is in the exchanges. For people believing in bitcoin, the exchanges are the weakest link in what they else consider a valuable financial platform.

If the exchanges were bought, of course the owner of the exchanges would get paid. But the value of each bitcoin would remain the same a part from some speculation on the price of the exchange.

Or am I misunderstanding your point of view here?

I'm thinking about the tecnology platform as the value of Bitcoin instead of the psychological aspect of stiking it rich.

If the value is in the platform couldn't someone buy the platform and hit the reset button or do inflate it or something else? I really don't know, the only thing I'm fairly certain about is the SEC is probably not going to step in and ensure Bitcoin holders rights.

If Goldman Sachs or Credit Suisse or a group decides to create a similar payment system with it's own crypto currency, then I think that would have a negative impact on Bitcoin.

Obviously Bitcoin was a great short term buy at $100, imagine buying 20,000 coins when it was at 50 cents. At $600 per coin I'm just not sure how safe it is when it seems like the big move already happened and too many people know about it now.

Again this is just me sitting in my armchair. I have nothing against Bitcoin and it would be great if it succedeed. There are just a lot of risk at $600-700/coin. IMHO.

(02-14-2014 03:17 PM)strengthstudent Wrote:  Also, bitcoin exchange is not the only source for transfers, you can trade bitcoins with anyone who has bitcoins and wants other currency. For this there is localbitcoins.com where you can search for local sellers/buyers.

Besides exchanges:
A whole complementary angle is the proliferation of bitcoin ATMs, and the increased number of venders accepting bitcoin that will allow more avenues of liquidation.... through various bitcoin merchant services and also, some companies are working on ways that employers can pay employees in BTC... or to conduct other kinds of payments in BTC. These are all promising areas for BTC, even though there continue to be a lot of bugs that need to be worked out.....

(02-14-2014 03:31 PM)Onto Wrote:  I'm thinking about the tecnology platform as the value of Bitcoin instead of the psychological aspect of stiking it rich.

If the value is in the platform couldn't someone buy the platform and hit the reset button or do inflate it or something else? I really don't know, the only thing I'm fairly certain about is the SEC is probably not going to step in and ensure Bitcoin holders rights.

If Goldman Sachs or Credit Suisse or a group decides to create a similar payment system with it's own crypto currency, then I think that would have a negative impact on Bitcoin.

Obviously Bitcoin was a great short term buy at $100, imagine buying 20,000 coins when it was at 50 cents. At $600 per coin I'm just not sure how safe it is when it seems like the big move already happened and too many people know about it now.

Again this is just me sitting in my armchair. I have nothing against Bitcoin and it would be great if it succedeed. There are just a lot of risk at $600-700/coin. IMHO.

The value from a technological point of view is the decentralized collective way of handling payments, with low cost among all the people on the internet to make payment with each other. This technology is unique for the crypto currencies that has popped up the last 5 years.

The code is open source, this means everyone (who understands coding) can have a look and view this invention. It´s not patented, and its fully legal to create a clone. Many have created alternative coins, for the fun of it, and some people have tried to become rich on it.

The value bitcoin has over the other crypto currencis is not on the technological side as most of them are not that different from one another.
The value is the network of people accepting and using Bitcoin. Maybe Google+ were just as good as Facebook if we just could have given it a try, but the network effect were to strong for most people to make the switch.

In other words, there is no point for big business to try and buy Bitcoin, as they might as easy create their own digital currency, their problem lies with trying to make people use their currency. So for now people who wants to capitalize on the crypto currency world, the best option seem to be providing services on the bitcoin network.

(02-14-2014 03:31 PM)Onto Wrote:  I'm thinking about the tecnology platform as the value of Bitcoin instead of the psychological aspect of stiking it rich.

If the value is in the platform couldn't someone buy the platform and hit the reset button or do inflate it or something else? I really don't know, the only thing I'm fairly certain about is the SEC is probably not going to step in and ensure Bitcoin holders rights.

If Goldman Sachs or Credit Suisse or a group decides to create a similar payment system with it's own crypto currency, then I think that would have a negative impact on Bitcoin.

Obviously Bitcoin was a great short term buy at $100, imagine buying 20,000 coins when it was at 50 cents. At $600 per coin I'm just not sure how safe it is when it seems like the big move already happened and too many people know about it now.

Again this is just me sitting in my armchair. I have nothing against Bitcoin and it would be great if it succedeed. There are just a lot of risk at $600-700/coin. IMHO.

you seem to have serious fundamental misunderstanding of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer network. Nobody can "buy" it. That's akin to saying the government could buy BitTorrent. So what you are suggesting is literally impossible

There is no RESET button that can be hit.

Bitcoin's technology is a breakthrough in cryptographic technology because of its capacity to achieve a decentralized consensus network.

Goldman Sachs cannot simply decide tomorrow to achieve what the Bitcoin network has developed in the years since its existence. There is many reasons why there is no point for Goldman Sachs to create their own cryptocurrency. One of the most important one is the lack of support. Whether you want to believe it or not, Goldman sachs cannot achieve by itself the network scale of nodes that is supporting Bitcoin.

I understand that this is just you sitting in your armchair but it is apparent you lack knowledge or information in your critique.

(02-14-2014 02:24 PM)Onto Wrote:  Stocks: Founded on the "assets" of a company whether it's real estate, intellectual property, equipment, branding, etc.

Real Estate: Founded on the legal precedence of land ownership and usefullness as shelter.

Fiat Currency: Founded on a Nation of Laws by its citizens with the abilitly to make it's citizens subscribe to and adhere to those laws. Tax reciepts.

Bitcoin: ? The only foundation appears to be the desire for someone else to see it also as valuable. I don't see how the foundation of many computer systems networked together makes it's worth $14+ billion dollars.

I understand you have something invested and a lot of intricate knowledge on the subject. I can only suggest that an "outsiders" opinion can be valuable for the very reason he has nothing invested in it either way.

And to this I say :

Internet domains.

A parallel can easily be drawn between Bitcoins and Internet domains. It is a very shortsighted one but can easily explain the exponential potential of Bitcoins' value.

In a way, Internet domains are a share of the Internet itself. You could have purchased some domain names at the dawn of the Internet for pennies that are now worth upward of $100,000

In buying Bitcoins, you are purchasing a share of the network/protocol onto which many technological layers, tools & services can be built.

(02-13-2014 11:08 PM)Onto Wrote:  How well tested is there software and exchanges? Do they really have the IT resources that the financial industry has to ensure the highest quality software and security that's been developing for the past 40+ years? It's looking like they don't and they are flying by the seat of their pants and they haven't done much testing before rolling things out.

The Bitcoin protocol itself is some of the most robust piece of technology in the world.

It would take a concerted attack by more than 51% of the nodes running it to even try to compromise it.

You concern is justified. Security of the infrastructures supporting the Bitcoin network is one of the main challenges of Bitcoin at the moment.

You are wrong to think they could have tested and prevented any issues that they encounter as this is a very young technology.

Should I remind you as well that the financial industry systems are regularly compromised

Soon, with project such as OpenNetwork, the infrastructures will be built within Bitcoin's technology meaning the exchanges servers will be peer-to-peer as well and therefore unlikely to be ever compromised.

The Bitcoin "currency" and store of value is only the first application of the Bitcoin technology. Like email was for the internet. There are many more promises and potential for this technology. It is still very much in its infancy. I recommend you read about it as it is an immensely captivating subject

Software development is my profession. To say they couldn't have thoroughly tested their software because it's too young shows you don't know much about the software biz.

(02-14-2014 10:42 PM)Onto Wrote:  Software development is my profession. To say they couldn't have thoroughly tested their software because it's too young shows you don't know much about the software biz.

Well then I suggest you start reading up on Bitcoin. If software development is your profession I'm sure you will be able to appreciate the genius of the underlying technology

What you are saying is similar to suggesting early internet developers should have eradicated the possiblity of DDOS attacks.

If MtGox went down because of a DDOS attack, something that's been in existence for awhile, how are they off the hook for not testing their ability to handle that?

Look, software is a business and the business wants to get the product out as fast as possible. I ASSURE you that adequate testing is NEVER done for most applications with the exception where lives directly depend on it.

To suggest that the technology is to new and cutting edge to test thoroughly is absurd. They wanted to get it up and running as fast as possible.

I will say nothing more on this thread. Onto out.

(02-14-2014 10:58 PM)Onto Wrote:  If MtGox went down because of a DDOS attack, something that's been in existence for awhile, how are they off the hook for not testing their ability to handle that?

Look, software is a business and the business wants to get the product out as fast as possible. I ASSURE you that adequate testing is NEVER done for most applications with the exception where lives directly depend on it.

To suggest that the technology is to new and cutting edge to test thoroughly is absurd. They wanted to get it up and running as fast as possible.

I will say nothing more on this thread. Onto out.

it is not a regular DDOS attack per say. and they are not "off the hook" as the whole Bitcoin community is starting to distance itself from Gox. The exchange may very well just die.

they were running an inadequate version of Bitcoin wallet which rendered them vulnerable to transaction malleability issues.

I'm not sure where your "im not saying nothing more" reaction stems from but great job conveniently dismissing the other information I presented to you

(02-13-2014 09:22 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Anyone worried about BTC prices/values, yet?

First::::: As I write, we are in the lower $580s on Bitstamp, and in the upper $550s on BTC e. The current price reflects about a 10% drop on today's average prices... or maybe even close to a 15% drop on the highest BTC price of the day and about a 35% drop of the BTC price from about 10 days ago... which was in the lower $800s.

Personally, I am NOT worried yet, and I am continuing to buy... hoping that BTC prices will spring back up. Surely, there is a little bit more of a worry, if the BTC price were to stay at these levels or even go lower. The main problem that seems to always exist is that we do NOT know for sure that the BTC price is going to go lower, even during a "crash" or a "flash crash" as Pants had called it.

Second:::: Any guys watching the news...??? and the latest and greatest news is that supposedly through the devious means of a hacker, all of the Bitcoins (nearly 4474 BTC, valued at about $2.7 million) were stolen off of Silkroad 2 - though I am NOT sure whether the details are confirmed yet, though that seems to be the story of Silkroad 2's administrator.

Any thoughts, guys?

The fact that MtGox and Bitstamp have stopped Bitcoins withdrawals might effect the price, don't you think? There was some problem with transactions so they stopped it until it's fixed. Mtgox has done a lot for Bitcoins and were the first exchange. Of course they will have problems.

Look at the big picture:
http://www.coindesk.com/

(02-11-2014 12:26 PM)pants Wrote:  Every time Andreas Antonopoulos is interviewed he brings something new to the table I haven´t heard about before. I consider him one of the sharpest people within the crypto world. If he thinks Ethereum is a good idea, so do I. I don´t think I have the ability to judge it by myself as I am not a huge coder.

Ethereum is very hyped right now. Will be interesting to see how many BTC they will collect in the IPO.

(02-14-2014 03:31 PM)Onto Wrote:  Obviously Bitcoin was a great short term buy at $100, imagine buying 20,000 coins when it was at 50 cents. At $600 per coin I'm just not sure how safe it is when it seems like the big move already happened and too many people know about it now.

Many think the price won't be going up much anymore because it is already 'so high'. People say bitcoins are expensive but expensive in what way and how? People are constantly comparing the price on one bitcoin to their standard of living and are making assumptions based on that. We are only using the 1.000 bitcoin market price because it is convenient, but in reality the bitcoin algorithm doesn't think has no idea what is 'expensive' and what is not. The price of one bitcoin could very easily be 10 000$ and it would just reflect the adoption of bitcoin.

I think that bitcoin only started to take off by the end of last year, and only now in 2014 the adoption for e-commerce has started. I think we have a long way to go.

(02-14-2014 11:09 PM)brg444 Wrote:  

(02-14-2014 10:58 PM)Onto Wrote:  If MtGox went down because of a DDOS attack, something that's been in existence for awhile, how are they off the hook for not testing their ability to handle that?

Look, software is a business and the business wants to get the product out as fast as possible. I ASSURE you that adequate testing is NEVER done for most applications with the exception where lives directly depend on it.

To suggest that the technology is to new and cutting edge to test thoroughly is absurd. They wanted to get it up and running as fast as possible.

I will say nothing more on this thread. Onto out.

it is not a regular DDOS attack per say. and they are not "off the hook" as the whole Bitcoin community is starting to distance itself from Gox. The exchange may very well just die.

they were running an inadequate version of Bitcoin wallet which rendered them vulnerable to transaction malleability issues.

I'm not sure where your "im not saying nothing more" reaction stems from but great job conveniently dismissing the other information I presented to you

BRG444:

I appreciate your several points, and surely it seems correct that if Onto is into software development, there should be some ability to appreciate the outright genius of Bitcoin.

However, even though something, such as bitcoin, is genius, does NOT necessarily mean that it will win the long term battle for value or adoption (even though, currently it seems to be developing in a very strong and expansive direction). There are likely going to be continued challenges ahead for BTC - and even ambiguity concerning its value and public perceptions of such.

Regarding Mt Gox, surely, it seems that we are getting bits and pieces of information from them.. and whether they are telling the truth, I do NOT know. You may know more based on your description of their supposed story of how the DDOS attack played into their older versions of software and even their creating their own custom version. It seems so incompetent, since they had troubles in the past, that they should have taken various corrective actions.

To me, it just seems really stupid that an exchange running that much BTC had NOT adequately fixed its security. Maybe it really is true? I have heard some speculation that they had a hot wallet that may have held 10 to 40% of Mt. Gox's BTC capital, which may have been lost to the DDOS attack. Lot's of speculation remains, b/c they are still NOT speaking too much.

There has been a certain level of loss of confidence in Mt. Gox and BTC in general... and as I write the Mt. Gox price has hovered into the lower $300s... which reflects nearly a 50% lower BTC value than other exchanges.

So that news seems to be dragging down BTC prices...

Also... the Silkroad 2 story, in which more that 4400 BTC were supposedly lost... I just have a hard time buying those kinds of stories that people are going to be that dumb or incompetent to leave their systems so vulnerable... and I am suspicious of some kind of insider job with either silkroad 2 or Mt. Gox. even though I am truly speculating... b/c besides circumstances and inferences, we do NOT really have any direct evidence that would conclude inside jobs.. NOT yet, anyhow (if that is possible to find out).

In the coming weeks, we may find out more about what happened and what the fall out is going to be.

(02-15-2014 09:57 AM)strengthstudent Wrote:  Many think the price won't be going up much anymore because it is already 'so high'. People say bitcoins are expensive but expensive in what way and how? People are constantly comparing the price on one bitcoin to their standard of living and are making assumptions based on that. We are only using the 1.000 bitcoin market price because it is convenient, but in reality the bitcoin algorithm doesn't think has no idea what is 'expensive' and what is not. The price of one bitcoin could very easily be 10 000$ and it would just reflect the adoption of bitcoin.

I thought that sometime in the near future... it may have even been March 1, 2014, there was going to be a BTC campaign of the BTC foundation (including core developers) to move BTC over to the milibit (not the microbit... b/c that is different, I think?).... ... So if this movement were to take place, then pricing would be in milibits, which is one thousandths of a bit - which likely in the near future will be worth more than a dollar... but currently would be worth around 65 cents.

But NO matter what, if BTC continues to have large increases in price, then there will be needs to price in smaller fragments of a bitcoin to be used in day to day transactions... b/c one BTC will be too high of a unit for regular transactions.

I continue to think that the market cap is the more appropriate framing of the potential of BTC to increase in value and to suggest that BTC is way undervalued- rather than over valued... I mean as a reflection of its market price. In spite of these various problems with BTC, I am suspecting that we should fairly easily get to $1500 per BTC by the end of 2014 - though I doubt the price will become stable during this year.

(02-15-2014 01:17 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  BRG444:

I appreciate your several points, and surely it seems correct that if Onto is into software development, there should be some ability to appreciate the outright genius of Bitcoin.

However, even though something, such as bitcoin, is genius, does NOT necessarily mean that it will win the long term battle for value or adoption (even though, currently it seems to be developing in a very strong and expansive direction). There are likely going to be continued challenges ahead for BTC - and even ambiguity concerning its value and public perceptions of such.

Regarding Mt Gox, surely, it seems that we are getting bits and pieces of information from them.. and whether they are telling the truth, I do NOT know. You may know more based on your description of their supposed story of how the DDOS attack played into their older versions of software and even their creating their own custom version. It seems so incompetent, since they had troubles in the past, that they should have taken various corrective actions.

To me, it just seems really stupid that an exchange running that much BTC had NOT adequately fixed its security. Maybe it really is true? I have heard some speculation that they had a hot wallet that may have held 10 to 40% of Mt. Gox's BTC capital, which may have been lost to the DDOS attack. Lot's of speculation remains, b/c they are still NOT speaking too much.

There has been a certain level of loss of confidence in Mt. Gox and BTC in general... and as I write the Mt. Gox price has hovered into the lower $300s... which reflects nearly a 50% lower BTC value than other exchanges.

So that news seems to be dragging down BTC prices...

Also... the Silkroad 2 story, in which more that 4400 BTC were supposedly lost... I just have a hard time buying those kinds of stories that people are going to be that dumb or incompetent to leave their systems so vulnerable... and I am suspicious of some kind of insider job with either silkroad 2 or Mt. Gox. even though I am truly speculating... b/c besides circumstances and inferences, we do NOT really have any direct evidence that would conclude inside jobs.. NOT yet, anyhow (if that is possible to find out).

In the coming weeks, we may find out more about what happened and what the fall out is going to be.

I thought that sometime in the near future... it may have even been March 1, 2014, there was going to be a BTC campaign of the BTC foundation (including core developers) to move BTC over to the milibit (not the microbit... b/c that is different, I think?).... ... So if this movement were to take place, then pricing would be in milibits, which is one thousandths of a bit - which likely in the near future will be worth more than a dollar... but currently would be worth around 65 cents.

But NO matter what, if BTC continues to have large increases in price, then there will be needs to price in smaller fragments of a bitcoin to be used in day to day transactions... b/c one BTC will be too high of a unit for regular transactions.

I continue to think that the market cap is the more appropriate framing of the potential of BTC to increase in value and to suggest that BTC is way undervalued- rather than over valued... I mean as a reflection of its market price. In spite of these various problems with BTC, I am suspecting that we should fairly easily get to $1500 per BTC by the end of 2014 - though I doubt the price will become stable during this year.

as for the challenges ahead for XBT and its long term success. this is all up for debates.

In my opinion the idea behind Bitcoin has already won the value battle. And there will eventually be general enlightenment regarding its purpose and reason of existence.

Andreas Antonopoulous like to say this technology is not there to challenge, absorb or replace other economies. It will build within itself its own economy akin to the internet.

I truly believe that.

Considering this, I was never concerned about other alternative coins because I don't foresee them ever having the extreme variations and bubble in price that Bitcoin has had. I don't feel I am losing an opportunity as I am not chasing riches anyway but looking to make the safest and smartest investement. Because I do not have an opportunity to invest in the infrastructure around it, Bitcoin is the 2nd safest investement into this technology in my opinion.

I believe Bitcoin, as a cryptocurrency and store of value, has already built such a strong adoption amongst the community it resembles the general consensus granted to similar internet protocols (TCP/IP, HTML). That means if something better comes along, the adoption rate could not replicate Bitcoin's own. It would make more of a transition than an adoption.

When that happens I hope I will be able to transfer, with equal value, my coins into whatever new crypto improves onto the current Bitcoin protocol

(02-15-2014 02:53 PM)brg444 Wrote:  Because I do not have an opportunity to invest in the infrastructure around it, Bitcoin is the 2nd safest investement into this technology in my opinion.

Likely, there is a lot of variation to attempt to invest in the BTC infrastructure... so investing in BTC seems to be an indirect mechanism of accomplishing the same... I am thinking that the higher the price of BTC, the more incentive there would be for the development of BTC infrastructure....

And, I suppose in day to day life, a guy may stumble across some start up BTC - related company - whether safe or NOT will likely depend upon whose steering the ship...

(02-15-2014 03:22 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(02-15-2014 02:53 PM)brg444 Wrote:  Because I do not have an opportunity to invest in the infrastructure around it, Bitcoin is the 2nd safest investement into this technology in my opinion.

Likely, there is a lot of variation to attempt to invest in the BTC infrastructure... so investing in BTC seems to be an indirect mechanism of accomplishing the same... I am thinking that the higher the price of BTC, the more incentive there would be for the development of BTC infrastructure....

And, I suppose in day to day life, a guy may stumble across some start up BTC - related company - whether safe or NOT will likely depend upon whose steering the ship...

correct.

I was thinking for example that investing in Blockchain.info MAY be a "safer" investment in the sense that they can survive without the Bitcoin (XBT) currency

Can anyone explain what would make GOX customers sell at such low prices? If they can't take money out while they are waiting why not keep the price high?

Supply + demand, who buys coins if there's significant chance you can't get them out? Few people -> price down. Some ppl think: chance of cheap coins, that's why it's not zero.

Also, as soon as Gox makes withdrawal possible, they'll collapse. That might cause bankruptcy, w/ all bad stuff related to that. Gox users are not coldly logical traders, but paranoids who loaded up on gold in '08 & '10,

I wonder how much of the bitcoin currency is owned by underworld-type figures with its connections to Silkroad, Cyprus and the current shadowy Chinese transactions.

I wish Mt. Gox would just die already. It has been a tumor on the bitcoin community for too long.

As for why people seem to be selling like crazy on Gox, my guess is that people think Gox doesn't have the coins to pay people out, so they are cashing to fiat and hoping to sue Gox to get at least some of their investment back.

(02-16-2014 08:45 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  Can anyone explain what would make GOX customers sell at such low prices? If they can't take money out while they are waiting why not keep the price high?

I agree that it is a crazy phenomenon b/c Mt Gox customers tend to be selling at a much lower price than the market rate.... and NO matter if their money is in BTC or in Fiat, they have the same liquidity problem (b/c Mt. Gox seems to NOT be allowing withdrawals in either).

Thus, the Mt. Gox sell phenomena seems to be driven by pure panic and loss of confidence in the BTC maintaining its value by the time customers are permitted to make withdrawals from Mt. Gox..

Accordingly, they want to be in fiat rather than BTC... b/c they have lost too much confidence in BTC... b/c of Mt. Gox's shenanigans and in spite of what other exchange prices are telling them about BTC prices being greater than what they can get on Mt. Gox.

As I type, price per BTC is:
Bitstamp= $606.00
BTC-e = $578.61
Mt. Gox =$243.60

(02-16-2014 10:13 AM)Maciano Wrote:  Supply + demand, who buys coins if there's significant chance you can't get them out? Few people -> price down. Some ppl think: chance of cheap coins, that's why it's not zero.

Also, as soon as Gox makes withdrawal possible, they'll collapse. That might cause bankruptcy, w/ all bad stuff related to that. Gox users are not coldly logical traders, but paranoids who loaded up on gold in '08 & '10,

I wanna buy these goxcoins. I do not believe for a second that Gox is insolvent and I expect them to allow BTC withdrawal again at one point.

They're just ran by a gang of incompetent people who are in way over their head.

I don't understand what makes you think Gox will collapse once they allow withdrawal