(02-16-2014 05:08 PM)brg444 Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 10:13 AM)Maciano Wrote:  Supply + demand, who buys coins if there's significant chance you can't get them out? Few people -> price down. Some ppl think: chance of cheap coins, that's why it's not zero.

Also, as soon as Gox makes withdrawal possible, they'll collapse. That might cause bankruptcy, w/ all bad stuff related to that. Gox users are not coldly logical traders, but paranoids who loaded up on gold in '08 & '10,

I wanna buy these goxcoins. I do not believe for a second that Gox is insolvent and I expect them to allow BTC withdrawal again at one point.

They're just ran by a gang of incompetent people who are in way over their head.

I don't understand what makes you think Gox will collapse once they allow withdrawal

I think it was Warren Buffet who said that the time to buy was when there is blood on the streets... or something like that... so the Mt. Gox BTC may be a great value, at the moment.... surely risky, but that is why they appear to be so attractively priced.

(02-14-2014 08:18 AM)Onto Wrote:  I can definitely see Bitcoin becoming a payment system in the future, but it's backing doesn't come from the ability to tax citizens and businesses so I don't think it can ever be a real currency. I could certainly be wrong about that though.

Onto Wrote:Stocks: Founded on the "assets" of a company whether it's real estate, intellectual property, equipment, branding, etc.

Real Estate: Founded on the legal precedence of land ownership and usefullness as shelter.

Fiat Currency: Founded on a Nation of Laws by its citizens with the abilitly to make it's citizens subscribe to and adhere to those laws. Tax reciepts.

Bitcoin: ? The only foundation appears to be the desire for someone else to see it also as valuable. I don't see how the foundation of many computer systems networked together makes it's worth $14+ billion dollars.

I understand you have something invested and a lot of intricate knowledge on the subject. I can only suggest that an "outsiders" opinion can be valuable for the very reason he has nothing invested in it either way.

Spoken like a fascist.

For the readers of Rooshv, go read Satoshi Nakamoto's essay. Anyone who tries to explain or question the value of Bitcoin proves their ignorance to the concepts contained in the essay. You should immediately doubt the credibility of anyone who tries to give you BTC advice without having read the essay. If you haven't read it yet and are in this thread, read the essay.

Regarding outside advice: nice thought, but your advice is not necessary. Read the essay.

The beauty of reading the essay is that it forces you to believe in the value of logic, cryptography, distributed network, and more which I hate to spoil. By doing that, you indirectly agree to the uselessness of rhetoric and emotion.

One last thought, and a teaser to understanding the entire concept of bitcoin: would you rather the emotion of security, or the logic of security?

Read the essay already!

(02-16-2014 05:25 PM)Grit Wrote:  

(02-14-2014 08:18 AM)Onto Wrote:  I can definitely see Bitcoin becoming a payment system in the future, but it's backing doesn't come from the ability to tax citizens and businesses so I don't think it can ever be a real currency. I could certainly be wrong about that though.

Onto Wrote:Stocks: Founded on the "assets" of a company whether it's real estate, intellectual property, equipment, branding, etc.

Real Estate: Founded on the legal precedence of land ownership and usefullness as shelter.

Fiat Currency: Founded on a Nation of Laws by its citizens with the abilitly to make it's citizens subscribe to and adhere to those laws. Tax reciepts.

Bitcoin: ? The only foundation appears to be the desire for someone else to see it also as valuable. I don't see how the foundation of many computer systems networked together makes it's worth $14+ billion dollars.

I understand you have something invested and a lot of intricate knowledge on the subject. I can only suggest that an "outsiders" opinion can be valuable for the very reason he has nothing invested in it either way.

Spoken like a fascist.

For the readers of Rooshv, go read Satoshi Nakamoto's essay. Anyone who tries to explain or question the value of Bitcoin proves their ignorance to the concepts contained in the essay. You should immediately doubt the credibility of anyone who tries to give you BTC advice without having read the essay. If you haven't read it yet and are in this thread, read the essay.

Regarding outside advice: nice thought, but your advice is not necessary. Read the essay.

The beauty of reading the essay is that it forces you to believe in the value of logic, cryptography, distributed network, and more which I hate to spoil. By doing that, you indirectly agree to the uselessness of rhetoric and emotion.

One last thought, and a teaser to understanding the entire concept of bitcoin: would you rather the emotion of security, or the logic of security?

Read the essay already!

totally agree, there was a time were I would dismiss it because of my fear not to understand all the technical mumbo jumbo. I have since read it multiple time and come away more convinced after every reading.

(02-16-2014 05:24 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  [quote='brg444' pid='655796' dateline='1392588483'

I wanna buy these goxcoins. I do not believe for a second that Gox is insolvent and I expect them to allow BTC withdrawal again at one point.

They're just ran by a gang of incompetent people who are in way over their head.

I don't understand what makes you think Gox will collapse once they allow withdrawal

1) You can buy goxbtc here: https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/

I haven't used it, don't know the owner, so be careful. It's just a link I found somewhere.

2) I think Gox will collapse bc as soon as they reinstall withdrawal most users will take their coins off the exchange, making them irrelevant.

I also think prices will swing up after the Gox-stuff goes away.

(02-16-2014 06:09 PM)Maciano Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 05:24 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  [quote='brg444' pid='655796' dateline='1392588483'

I wanna buy these goxcoins. I do not believe for a second that Gox is insolvent and I expect them to allow BTC withdrawal again at one point.

They're just ran by a gang of incompetent people who are in way over their head.

I don't understand what makes you think Gox will collapse once they allow withdrawal

1) You can buy goxbtc here: https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/

I haven't used it, don't know the owner, so be careful. It's just a link I found somewhere.

2) I think Gox will collapse bc as soon as they reinstall withdrawal most users will take their coins off the exchange, making them irrelevant.

I also think prices will swing up after the Gox-stuff goes away.

yea I am aware of the bitcoinbuilder website which by the way I believe is legit.

Unfortunately they charge around 70% of BTC value when Gox is actually below 50 %

(02-16-2014 04:37 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 08:45 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  Can anyone explain what would make GOX customers sell at such low prices? If they can't take money out while they are waiting why not keep the price high?

I agree that it is a crazy phenomenon b/c Mt Gox customers tend to be selling at a much lower price than the market rate.... and NO matter if their money is in BTC or in Fiat, they have the same liquidity problem (b/c Mt. Gox seems to NOT be allowing withdrawals in either).

Thus, the Mt. Gox sell phenomena seems to be driven by pure panic and loss of confidence in the BTC maintaining its value by the time customers are permitted to make withdrawals from Mt. Gox..

Accordingly, they want to be in fiat rather than BTC... b/c they have lost too much confidence in BTC... b/c of Mt. Gox's shenanigans and in spite of what other exchange prices are telling them about BTC prices being greater than what they can get on Mt. Gox.

As I type, price per BTC is:
Bitstamp= $606.00
BTC-e = $578.61
Mt. Gox =$243.60

I would like to supplement my earlier above response with the below Reddit link.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments...g_for_240/


The linked information seemed to have been attempting to answer El Mech's question (as if they are reading RVF, what the fuck?... ), and the one additional idea contained within that thread (besides the responses that I made in my earlier above post) is that some Mt. Gox customers may be selling on GOX b/c they are engaged in BTC trading and attempting to make money to get cash and then to buy BTC again at hopefully a lower price... Of course with any BTC trading these days, they may bet wrong, have poor timing and end up holding more fiat than expected and with less BTC than expected rather than with more.

Actually, I would like to report some information about my personal BTC holdings and my fucked up attempts (earlier today) at BTC trading... that ended up working out in my favor....... but only b/c I got lucky.

I should have learned by now... but anyhow, the beeping of my computer woke me up at about 5am with multiple trades on fiatleak... so I get up and I look at BTC prieces falling from $630 to $590 and seems to be still going down based on my perusal at various news clips reporting that GOX was insolvent or some other sporadic rumors that seemed to be driving the BTC price falls.. I lock in a fairly sizable sell of 14 BTC at $595.. .then the price shot back up to $620... I am so tired and pissed at myself, and I do NOT know what to do.. b/c the BTC price may shoot back up to $700 or something ridiculous like that, then I will be truly screwed... I decided to set multiple sell orders and go back to sleep and hope for the best.

Accordingly, I set four sell orders in increments at $591, 586, 568 and 548, and I went back to sleep. Again at about 9:30am - ish, I was woken up to multiple pings on my computer, and I went to take a look and 3 out of 4 of my sell orders had gone through.. and I manually made another sell order for most of the remaining dollars at $579 per BTC.

I am thinking that I got lucky to NOT lose, and I gained about .2BTC out of the stressful situation. I am NOT sure if I learned a lesson besides the fact that I am pretty amateur when it comes to BTC trading and I should NOT be making decisions like that on a spur when the computer is waking me up. And, maybe I should NOT allow it to wake me up, b/c probably it is NOT good for my health.

On the other hand, I learned that adding .2BTC to my total BTC portfolio without any dollar costs brought my average BTC buy price down by quite a bit - from $750 to $744 (my total BTC holdings went from approximately 27.1 BTC to 27.3 BTC)... and it makes it very tempting for me to want to engage in future BTC trades.. but so frequently, I am afraid that I am going to bet wrong.. and if I do bet, I have to bet with smaller amounts of BTC b/c it was way too stressful for me to have the proceeds of 14BTC hanging in limbo (in fiat) and without a real plan for how to recoup in the event that BTC prices were to shoot back up beyond my sell price.

Trollbox is good tonight log on!

(02-16-2014 09:09 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  Trollbox is good tonight log on!

Actually El Mech... I had been finding the trollbox to be fairly useful in recent days... ... and I know earlier I had poo poo'd the troll box... but if you can sort through some of the garbage, there can be some great and late breaking news...

For example, the other day, I was chatting with this BTC-e "troll" and we were chatting about the future of BTC prices. He made some prediction about South Africa, and I said what the fuck you talking about... and he pointed me to "old news" from three days ago... about the largest bank in south africa taking on a BTC pilot program... Here's a link:

http://www.coindesk.com/evolution-bitcoi...ing-house/

Well anyhow, that is pretty big news for BTC b/c i read somewhere that the bank has nearly $300 Billion in assets and more than $10 billion in gross annual revenue.. or something like that... and initially I found it out from the BTC-e troll box.

(02-16-2014 03:02 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  ...my guess is that people think Gox doesn't have the coins to pay people out, so they are cashing to fiat and hoping to sue Gox to get at least some of their investment back.

Good luck to those people. I doubt any court would technically consider it an investment in the first place.

(02-16-2014 09:29 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 09:09 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  Trollbox is good tonight log on!

Actually El Mech... I had been finding the trollbox to be fairly useful in recent days... ... and I know earlier I had poo poo'd the troll box... but if you can sort through some of the garbage, there can be some great and late breaking news...

For example, the other day, I was chatting with this BTC-e "troll" and we were chatting about the future of BTC prices. He made some prediction about South Africa, and I said what the fuck you talking about... and he pointed me to "old news" from three days ago... about the largest bank in south africa taking on a BTC pilot program... Here's a link:

http://www.coindesk.com/evolution-bitcoi...ing-house/

Well anyhow, that is pretty big news for BTC b/c i read somewhere that the bank has nearly $300 Billion in assets and more than $10 billion in gross annual revenue.. or something like that... and initially I found it out from the BTC-e troll box.

I should point out that this "pilot" was thrown to the bushes a couple of days after in a rather curious statement by the company.

My sentiment is this was not supposed to come out and the bank had no choice but to retract their stance and deny future consideration of a Bitcoin related service

My brain is set up for fast. I can't read some of the longwinded posts here but can take from that box for some reason.

(02-16-2014 10:13 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  My brain is set up for fast. I can't read some of the longwinded posts here but can take from that box for some reason.

That's called ADD.... NO hating...

(02-16-2014 10:25 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 10:13 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  My brain is set up for fast. I can't read some of the longwinded posts here but can take from that box for some reason.

That's called ADD.... NO hating...

It's good but I have two six year old girls all weekend making loom braclets with me, feeding them, going to my shop helping my guys and a host of other things Jay. I only get short spurts in my life everything else comes on the fly.

(02-16-2014 10:34 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 10:25 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 10:13 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  My brain is set up for fast. I can't read some of the longwinded posts here but can take from that box for some reason.

That's called ADD.... NO hating...

It's good but I have two six year old girls all weekend making loom braclets with me, feeding them, going to my shop helping my guys and a host of other things Jay. I only get short spurts in my life everything else comes on the fly.

Fair enough.. El Mech... I get what you are saying with the juggling of tasks, and so we each have our own tolerances and ways to use information and activities in our daily lives.

I find the BTC-e troll box good for getting some quick insight about movement of BTC or some other crypto at the moment... but probably NOT going to get in depth information from there - especially about the long term of BTC... and maybe even get lured into a short-term trading mistake. But surely the BTC-e troll box can serve a purpose.. that fits some people and some uses better than others.

Actually, in my mind, there remains some importance to accountability and being able to trace past posts that we get here in RVF and this thread. Even though RVF members are largely anonymous, there is going to be more accountability in the RVF posted information than with BTC-e troll box - just take for example, my above post 1230 about the south africa bank, brg444's 1232 post put my 3 days old out of date information into perspective..... and gave my posted information much less importance than what I had attributed to the information...

I believe those kinds of checks, corrections and supplementations are healthy and good for the BTC or crypto currency related information that we are discussing in this thread, and it is very difficult to get that kind of depth from the BTC-e troll box... and the posted information in BTC-e troll box disappears (within 5 to 30 minutes, depending on activity levels - or even a crash of BTC-e). If I go grab a bite to eat or take a piss, I may miss some important post in the BTC-e troll box, including someone responding to one of my earlier posts... I suppose that could happen in RVF, as well... I go take a piss, and then come back and I am banned for life.... hehehe... Bans in the BTC-e troll box are frequently temporary.. I've never been banned from BTC-e troll box, yet.. . .

I see a huge pump in the future on Gox's end which will cause everyone else to panic pump. I'm all in BTC and will sleep with my sell orders close to the moon.

Of course I have no links or data to back my statement.

JJG maybe this thread on bitcointalk forum is better to follow: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.0
I been following it before, especally during bubbles, but I'm not doing it anymore.

Mtgox get's hated much more than they should. They have made a lot for bitcoin, being the first exchange to open, of course they will have some problems.

(02-17-2014 12:42 PM)friheten Wrote:  JJG maybe this thread on bitcointalk forum is better to follow: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.0
I been following it before, especally during bubbles, but I'm not doing it anymore.

Mtgox get's hated much more than they should. They have made a lot for bitcoin, being the first exchange to open, of course they will have some problems.

Thanks Friheten.. I will look at that website... I glanced at it quickly, and it looks like there is a lot of in-depth and timely information therein. There are over 4800 pages since April 2013... and makes RVF look too short... he he he...

(02-17-2014 11:36 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  I see a huge pump in the future on Gox's end which will cause everyone else to panic pump. I'm all in BTC and will sleep with my sell orders close to the moon.

Of course I have no links or data to back my statement.

I cannot see BTC prices getting much higher than $750 or possibly up to $800 in the next couple of weeks... dont get me wrong.. I am bullish on BTC... ...but the next couple of weeks are NOT looking so good in my current vision.. As I write, bitstamp is at 640, btce 625 and gox at 316.

Surely, it is possible that a surge could take place... We've been unable to predict in the past.

At the moment, I have a hard time believing that Mt. Gox is going to inspire sufficient confidence in order for a real large pump to be able to take place with their looming issues becoming even more worrisome with the longer passage of time and their NOT opening their withdrawals.

If they are able to open their withdrawals and fake their solvency, a little bit, then there does seem to be pent up demand for BTC prices to rise...

Nonetheless, I am thinking in terms of what seems to be real fundamental financial issues at Mt. Gox. Discussion of such signs and signals of insolvency were reflected in the below article.

http://www.coindesk.com/mt-gox-may-headed-bankruptcy/

It is hard to predict what is going to happen for the price, because Bitcoin is still so small that if a few big billionaires in a random time invested in bitcoin, it would have a big impact.

People should look at the number of transactions happening where there is a great upward trend. In fact, we are still recovering from the last 'bubble'. Bitcoin is getting more and more mainstream -- Good wife had a full episode of bitcoin, superly popular comedians are mentioning bitcoin & accepting donations in bitcoin(bill burr) and Japanese's biggest newspaper had a cover news about bitcoin. I certainly am very bullish for bitcoin. I think that only a major bug in the code or some sort of hack could stop this train.

I wish I had kept my coins last year. Could have made a couple grands with it.

Thinking about jumping in again.

What are they going to do about the bug in the protocol?

(02-16-2014 04:37 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  As I type, price per BTC is:
Bitstamp= $606.00
BTC-e = $578.61
Mt. Gox =$243.60

Has anyone tried to arbitrage this? Ideally some kind of automated trading program or algo.

(02-20-2014 02:55 AM)dtf Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 04:37 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  As I type, price per BTC is:
Bitstamp= $606.00
BTC-e = $578.61
Mt. Gox =$243.60

Has anyone tried to arbitrage this? Ideally some kind of automated trading program or algo.

Mt gox is 150$ now and that is really cheap. Bitstamp is at 600$. If I had money at Mtgox I would buy BTC there, as 150$ is way to low, even though they have problems with withdrawal, if they solve it, and I believe they will, that would equal a profit times four. To bad I'm not verified.

Mt.gox at 130$ been going up and down all day. Apocalypse is here. I wish mt.gox would open withdrawals soon and stop screwing the people. You can try to use mt.gox but you don't necessarily get your money back...

buy buy buy

They Gox need to close trading until they resolve their problems the fact that the money is stuck there makes this entire "crash" a joke, if you can withdraw 100 dollar btc then you can withdraw 600 dollar btc. Freakin idiots!

(02-20-2014 11:48 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  They Gox need to close trading until they resolve their problems the fact that the money is stuck there makes this entire "crash" a joke, if you can withdraw 100 dollar btc then you can withdraw 600 dollar btc. Freakin idiots!

surely there is some kind of insider job coin price manipulation going on at Mt. Gox... and they may be willing to get the coin in the $50 or lower range and then pump the shit out of it thereafter... I am sure Mt. Gox is doing some of the selling to get the price down.. and then they start to buy.. thereafter.. and then they begin to think that all of their problems will be solved.... except for the later investigation that will take place...


regarding shutting off exchanges.. they could NOT do that initially b/c too much liability would have ensued... and probably attention to the situation.... It still may cause additional liability if they were to shut off exchanges... .. but they are likely using the exchanges to hopefully manipulate their way out of their bad situation... ... whether they make it worse or NOT will be a story to be told another day

As I type
Gox hovering in the $116
Bitstamp = $574
BTC-e + $560


EDIT: To supplement this post, I saw this article.. about the speculation that there is obvious insider trading going on at Mt. Gox..

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments...s_obvious/

and that is the reason for the crazy shit that is going on in the BTC market today and explaining the downtrend in BTC prices over the last few weeks... Whether MT Gox insiders are agents of some government plot, greedy or just trying to save their company from incompetence... OR... best case scenario is that they really are incompetent and are NOT manipulating or taking advantage of the situation (far stretch in my opinion, based on the pattern of behavior)..... who knows at this point... History will probably tell us more about the inside story.. but for now there is mere speculation (including from myself) about what is causing the shit at Mt. Gox and the major price differential between their exchange and the others and their several stupid ass (and non-specific and non-transparent) announcements over the past couple weeks.