Post: #1

I'm taking the CELTA (ESL teaching class/cert) in Austin, TX. The class is 10 dudes and 2 girls. There's even a grandfather. Whether they're conscious of it or not, men are flocking to overseas poosy paradise like salmon swimming upstream.

I doubt many of them are manosphere oriented since there's a bunch of hipster-types, but perhaps. One is married to a Japanese woman and one has some other asian girlfriend he's gearing up to go live with over there.

Just wanted to give a ground report from the front lines of exodus from the USA.

(Sidenote: I'm banging a hot, tight UT freshman 17 years my junior. Thank you game and weightlifting.)

Post: #2

The decline has already began. I wish these men good luck in fighting the system cause they are gonna need it. It is not a good sign when citizens are renouncing their citizenship and going overseas.

Godspeed to us all.

Godspeed...

Post: #3

(02-10-2014 11:00 PM)Agent 47 Wrote:  It is not a good sign when citizens are renouncing their citizenship and going overseas.

There are over 10,000 babies born per day in the US (CDC 2011 stats), and 3,000 people renounced citizenship last year (this was a record high). I suspect a lot of those people renouncing were dual citizens who have lived abroad for years and simply didn't want the hassle of it (tax declarations).

I'm not convinced there's a mass exodus of American citizens who renounce their citizenship and leave the US.

Post: #4

Let's just say that it is noticable for a country that during the latter 20th century was touted as the best and most prosperous nation in the world.

Post: #5

The vast majority of people who leave and never come back never officially renounce. People who renounce citizenship are wealthy enough not to be able to hide.

Post: #6

(02-10-2014 11:37 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

(02-10-2014 11:00 PM)Agent 47 Wrote:  It is not a good sign when citizens are renouncing their citizenship and going overseas.

There are over 10,000 babies born per day in the US (CDC 2011 stats), and 3,000 people renounced citizenship last year (this was a record high). I suspect a lot of those people renouncing were dual citizens who have lived abroad for years and simply didn't want the hassle of it (tax declarations).

I'm not convinced there's a mass exodus of American citizens who renounce their citizenship and leave the US.

Renouncing citizenship and living in a different country are two different things. The real interesting number would be citizens per year leaving the US to work, study, or marry abroad. If the number is rising then there is a trend.

I did a quick search and found this: 6.32 million Americans (excluding military) live in 160-plus countries

Quote: Africa: 171,000
East Asia and Pacific: 864,000
Europe: 1,612,000
Near East: 870,000
South Central Asia: 212,000
Western Hemisphere: 2,591,000
For a total of 6,320,000

The data is from 2011, if we could get some fresh data it would be a good comparison.

Post: #7

I don't understand why you need to renounce your citizenship.

Are you not allowed to have dual citizenship if one of them is US citizenship?

Even if that is the case, why do you need to become a citizen of another country? What are the benefits?
If you have a residency permit, you are fine.
The only thing I can think of is so you can go on welfare. Or to make it a lot harder for them to deport you.

Post: #8

Renouncing citizenship can make sense for wealthy people who aren't going back to the US for tax reasons.

For others, dual citizenship can be a big benefit if you want to settle down with a foreigner in their country.

Post: #9

(02-11-2014 06:52 AM)spalex Wrote:  I don't understand why you need to renounce your citizenship.

Are you not allowed to have dual citizenship if one of them is US citizenship?

Even if that is the case, why do you need to become a citizen of another country? What are the benefits?
If you have a residency permit, you are fine.
The only thing I can think of is so you can go on welfare. Or to make it a lot harder for them to deport you.

It's just taxes. I think most of the renounciation of citizenship came from people who make a lot of money and didn't want to deal with the annoying tax code.

Post: #10

What frenchie said. That's the main motive, but there are others.

The number of Americans that renounced their citizenship was 221 percent higher in 2013 than it was in 2012. That is a staggering figure, and it is symptomatic of a larger trend. In recent years, a lot of really good people with very deep roots in this country have made the difficult decision to say goodbye to the United States permanently. A few actually go to the trouble to renounce their citizenship, and that is mostly done for tax purposes. But most willingly choose to leave America for other reasons.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-10...itizenship

Post: #11

It is a little early to start talking about trends when you have a sample size of 3000. If one person fell in the bathtub and broke his neck last year, but three people did it this year, that's 300 percent increase. Does it tell us anything meaningful about bathtub safety?

Post: #12

Yeah ..I agree JR ..just included the article because I happened to see it this morning and saw this thread. There are real bonafide trwnds of this type around the world, e.g. more Turks leaving Germany for Turkey than arriving from there in the last few years. That bucks a 50 year trend in the opposite direction.

Post: #13

I know a former American who renounced so that he could guarantee that he never had to return to his meaningless life in he US.

He is now stateless and has never been happier.

Post: #14

this what's called confirmation bias. you have an opinion, then find the data to support it. we all do it.

if you're not youngtallcool, (where young is < 40-45) might as well be a fool in the usa w/ 8+, then your ceiling drops about a point per decade without fame/wealth.

that's not ALWAYS true, but I tend to see it.

Post: #15

(02-11-2014 02:37 PM)Suits Wrote:  I know a former American who renounced so that he could guarantee that he never had to return to his meaningless life in he US.

He is now stateless and has never been happier.

How does that work with entering new countries? (passport etc)

Post: #16

(02-11-2014 07:34 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

(02-11-2014 06:52 AM)spalex Wrote:  I don't understand why you need to renounce your citizenship.

Are you not allowed to have dual citizenship if one of them is US citizenship?

Even if that is the case, why do you need to become a citizen of another country? What are the benefits?
If you have a residency permit, you are fine.
The only thing I can think of is so you can go on welfare. Or to make it a lot harder for them to deport you.

It's just taxes. I think most of the renounciation of citizenship came from people who make a lot of money and didn't want to deal with the annoying tax code.

Actually, most of the people that renounce citizenship isn't the rich but the middle class. Yes, tax code have something to do with it but not only, SEC and DoJ also. With the passing of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, it is very difficult for financial institutional not based in US to have US citizen as clients. Dual Citizen are finding that banks will not deal with them and are closing their bank accounts. ex. One european women leaved US over 10 yrs ago had her join/husband bank account closed and couldn't find another bank that will accept her as a client. Also most non-US based investment funds are not available to US citizen. Having a professional to do your taxes will usually be about $3-7,000. From what I read, one person in UK had to declare the balance on the Oyster card as it is considered a foreign financial instrument.

Post: #17

It makes sense if the person plans on never coming back. Usually it makes sense for rich in this case. But it all depends where they are going to live. It doesn't make sense if they are going to live and reside in high tax country.But having 2 passports can help with opening offshore accounts. You just don't let them know your America. The bigger problem is avoid taxes if you are residing overseas. Only way to do that is renounce citizenship.
I don't think they will let a person renounce who is stateless.They also charge to renounce lol.

Post: #18

(02-11-2014 02:47 PM)draguer Wrote:  

(02-11-2014 02:37 PM)Suits Wrote:  I know a former American who renounced so that he could guarantee that he never had to return to his meaningless life in he US.

He is now stateless and has never been happier.

How does that work with entering new countries? (passport etc)

It doesn't. You've gotta get your hands on some alternative travel documents. Mainland China recognizes the rights of stateless individuals, but they do not have a process in place to offer such documents. Hong Kong does, so he may eventually transition there; however, for the moment, he is enjoying career success in China, so those plans are tentatively on hold until he has a good reason.

This guy grew up in the underbelly of US society. Family was a bunch of crack heads and regular jailbirds. He did a spell in prison for a few months until chargers were dropped -- later was homeless in California while waiting for a school in China do give him the go ahead to fly over. Had to borrow money to get his start in China.

So, from his point of view, travel documents aren't of the highest priority.

Post: #19

(02-11-2014 05:08 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  But having 2 passports can help with opening offshore accounts. You just don't let them know your America.

Most passports list your place of birth (Switzerland and St. Kitts/Nevis are the only exceptions of which I know). One of the requirements of FATCA is for banks to check U.S. "indicia of citizenship," which includes your place of birth -- which is listed on most passports.

Post: #20

(02-11-2014 06:52 AM)spalex Wrote:  I don't understand why you need to renounce your citizenship.

Are you not allowed to have dual citizenship if one of them is US citizenship?

Even if that is the case, why do you need to become a citizen of another country? What are the benefits?
If you have a residency permit, you are fine.
The only thing I can think of is so you can go on welfare. Or to make it a lot harder for them to deport you.

The U.S. is one of a few nations on the planet that taxes its citizens' worldwide income even if you are not a U.S. resident, which is downright primitive. There is no way to avoid that legal requirement to pay income tax on worldwide income unless you renounce your U.S. citizenship.

Post: #21

(02-11-2014 08:09 AM)j r Wrote:  It is a little early to start talking about trends when you have a sample size of 3000. If one person fell in the bathtub and broke his neck last year, but three people did it this year, that's 300 percent increase. Does it tell us anything meaningful about bathtub safety?

If you had simply clicked on the link in post three, you would have seen that there is no doubt that it is an extremely strong trend.

In fact, that trend is so strong that it is on a parabolic curve!

Post: #22

(02-10-2014 10:52 PM)SheriffBart Wrote:  I'm taking the CELTA (ESL teaching class/cert) in Austin, TX. The class is 10 dudes and 2 girls. There's even a grandfather. Whether they're conscious of it or not, men are flocking to overseas poosy paradise like salmon swimming upstream.

I doubt many of them are manosphere oriented since there's a bunch of hipster-types, but perhaps. One is married to a Japanese woman and one has some other asian girlfriend he's gearing up to go live with over there.

Just wanted to give a ground report from the front lines of exodus from the USA.

(Sidenote: I'm banging a hot, tight UT freshman 17 years my junior. Thank you game and weightlifting.)

Women are more materialistic then men, overwhelmingly so IMO, and teaching english is a career that often puts teachers in developing countries with often poor pay, along with living in conditons that almost always were not as high as back in the UK/US.

This transition is easier for men to deal with since men are more adventerous and high standard of living conditions are not as important for men as they are for women generally speaking.

Then the question is where do you go to teach? The best paying places outside of some select middle eastern countries are in Asia. Asia is great for western men but a big, huge fall in options for western women with respect to their dating options.

LA is ok for dating for western women but the pay is terrible so they really have to deal with a lower quality of life there with the low pay.

Not having lived there so I am just speculating but I believe eastern europe would probably not be good for dating for western women(since they face huge competition from local women) and the pay would also not be very good leading to lower living standard.

So basically for men TEFL is a great way to access foreign poon long term in an easy way. While the living conditions may not be as great as the US/UK the adventure of it all and having access to foreign pussy make it a desireable job for western men but not for western women. So I dont think TEFL has ever been a female centric career and has always had far more men doing it than women so the sex ratios of your TEFL class are probably what you would have seen 15-20 years ago.

Post: #23

It's not just the US
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relatio...6823846037

Post: #24

(02-11-2014 09:52 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(02-11-2014 08:09 AM)j r Wrote:  It is a little early to start talking about trends when you have a sample size of 3000. If one person fell in the bathtub and broke his neck last year, but three people did it this year, that's 300 percent increase. Does it tell us anything meaningful about bathtub safety?

If you had simply clicked on the link in post three, you would have seen that there is no doubt that it is an extremely strong trend.

In fact, that trend is so strong that it is on a parabolic curve!

I read the WSJ article; that's why I know the numbers. When you're dealing with 3,000 people out of a population of 300,000,000, talking about trends is highly spurious. It could be the beginning of a trend. Or it could be a temporary uptick because of FATCA implementation.

Post: #25

(02-12-2014 12:25 AM)devilution Wrote:  It's not just the US
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relatio...6823846037

Saw that exact same article devilution. It doesn't address one of the major contributing factors: that many are heading to China, Japan, Thailand, Philippines etc (given our proximity to Asia) to teach English and/or live while enjoying the tight LBFMs on offer (at the same time escaping Australia's many poor excuses for women)