(01-21-2014 09:02 PM)Collide Wrote:  I want to buy litecoins as a long term investment but buying from Canada seems expensive and complicated.

I mentioned in a previous post for Canadians Vault of Satoshi is a great simple trustworthy way to purchase litecoins at market rate.

http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-21537-...#pid619901

They've since added things such as depositing at their office in suburban Toronto, CAD support and pretty soon implementing direct payments I believe.

(01-17-2014 12:30 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  Don't know if it's been mentioned, but the lack of intrinsic value in bitcoins makes it hard for me to invest mid/long term.

All this, because ultimately, data, even encrypted, isn't worth anything.
A bitcoin system backed by a commodity, such as gold/silver/oil, would be a lot more interesting.

m2c

True.

But here's the big problem with Bitcoin as an investment:

Although the tech behind Bitcoin (i.e. block-chain) is an innovation, the same tech can be used for any number of rival coins. So even if I agree that the tech is a real innovation and crypto-currencies are the way of the future (which I do), the big problem is there is no real reason for the price of Bitcoin to keep rising when more and more rival coins keep appearing.

One scenario I can see is the price of Bitcoin crashing to a floor of around $US 200 as other rival coins suck away all the cash. So even if Bitcoin is here to stay, it's price may well fall to some fixed point and never rise again.

(01-22-2014 08:47 AM)zarzuelazen Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 12:30 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  Don't know if it's been mentioned, but the lack of intrinsic value in bitcoins makes it hard for me to invest mid/long term.

All this, because ultimately, data, even encrypted, isn't worth anything.
A bitcoin system backed by a commodity, such as gold/silver/oil, would be a lot more interesting.

m2c

True.

But here's the big problem with Bitcoin as an investment:

Although the tech behind Bitcoin (i.e. block-chain) is an innovation, the same tech can be used for any number of rival coins. So even if I agree that the tech is a real innovation and crypto-currencies are the way of the future (which I do), the big problem is there is no real reason for the price of Bitcoin to keep rising when more and more rival coins keep appearing.

One scenario I can see is the price of Bitcoin crashing to a floor of around $US 200 as other rival coins suck away all the cash. So even if Bitcoin is here to stay, it's price may well fall to some fixed point and never rise again.

Technology, as a whole seems to me like a huge issue in Bitcoins...
I mean what if everybody owns a quantum computer in 15 years? The encryption technology will be worthless, so will be the bitcoins. There's just so many "what if's" when we look at the future technology/bitcoin issue

(01-22-2014 08:47 AM)zarzuelazen Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 12:30 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  Don't know if it's been mentioned, but the lack of intrinsic value in bitcoins makes it hard for me to invest mid/long term.

All this, because ultimately, data, even encrypted, isn't worth anything.
A bitcoin system backed by a commodity, such as gold/silver/oil, would be a lot more interesting.

m2c

True.

But here's the big problem with Bitcoin as an investment:

Although the tech behind Bitcoin (i.e. block-chain) is an innovation, the same tech can be used for any number of rival coins. So even if I agree that the tech is a real innovation and crypto-currencies are the way of the future (which I do), the big problem is there is no real reason for the price of Bitcoin to keep rising when more and more rival coins keep appearing.

One scenario I can see is the price of Bitcoin crashing to a floor of around $US 200 as other rival coins suck away all the cash. So even if Bitcoin is here to stay, it's price may well fall to some fixed point and never rise again.

The problem with other cryptocurrencies competing with Bitcoin is bitcoin has a huge network and a lot of infrastructure in place that would be hard to replicate with another altcoin. Remember, computing power is a scarce resource since there is only so much of it to go around. Right now, bitcoin is the most secure cryptocurrency by several orders of magnitude because of its giant network. Also, the new altcoins trade at a small fraction of bitcoin and have yet to gain much on bitcoin. Even litecoin (the second largest altcoin by market cap) has fallen as a fraction of bitcoin.

(01-22-2014 02:40 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 08:47 AM)zarzuelazen Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 12:30 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  Don't know if it's been mentioned, but the lack of intrinsic value in bitcoins makes it hard for me to invest mid/long term.

All this, because ultimately, data, even encrypted, isn't worth anything.
A bitcoin system backed by a commodity, such as gold/silver/oil, would be a lot more interesting.

m2c

True.

But here's the big problem with Bitcoin as an investment:

Although the tech behind Bitcoin (i.e. block-chain) is an innovation, the same tech can be used for any number of rival coins. So even if I agree that the tech is a real innovation and crypto-currencies are the way of the future (which I do), the big problem is there is no real reason for the price of Bitcoin to keep rising when more and more rival coins keep appearing.

One scenario I can see is the price of Bitcoin crashing to a floor of around $US 200 as other rival coins suck away all the cash. So even if Bitcoin is here to stay, it's price may well fall to some fixed point and never rise again.

Technology, as a whole seems to me like a huge issue in Bitcoins...
I mean what if everybody owns a quantum computer in 15 years? The encryption technology will be worthless, so will be the bitcoins. There's just so many "what if's" when we look at the future technology/bitcoin issue

The bitcoin protocol can be updated with quantum-proof encryption (quarkcoin already kind of has this). Not a big deal.

(01-21-2014 09:02 PM)Collide Wrote:  I want to buy litecoins as a long term investment but buying from Canada seems expensive and complicated.

Collide:

Your question seems to imply that for some reason LiteCoin may be a better value than BTC b/c litecoins are ONLY $24 per coin rather than $800+ per coin (the currentl BTC price). Personally, I recognize that guys come to varying evaluations about how to value of these various Alt-currencies based on the various features and market share of the coin. I would NOT let the price of the coin make you consider that litecoinis a better value than BTC or that litecoin has more potential upside, as compared with BTC. Keep in mind that you can buy BTC in very small increments.

Some people have suggested that litecoins are undervalued b/c they should be 1/4 the value of BTC (based on the fact that there are going to be a total of 84 million litecoins as compared with a total of 21 million BTC). Therefore if BTC and litecoin are the ONLY two standing, then they would be valued accordingly. Funny thing is that the market is NOT so logical in terms of making these kinds of valuations. Another funny thing is that currently we have few ideas about which if any of the cryptocurrencies are going to be the last ones standing down the road... next year or even 100 years from now.

Probably, we should mainly care about what is going to happen both short-term (within the next 6 months) and medium term (within the next few years) rather than what is going to happen 100 years from now (even though there is a bit of a value to the 100 year scenario as well b/c these various cryptocurrencies get some of their value by having a long term plan about how the coin is intended to develop in the long term).

(01-21-2014 07:56 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  Not at 24 though

Who knows whether litecoin is overvalued or undervalued? There are a variety of factors that affect this, including market momentum and infrastructure and some of the network affect as referred to by Texas Prophet in post 1071 above - and when we look at these various alt cryptocurrencies, we see some of them have more momentum in the market than others (and both BTC and LTC fall in the category of having current market momentum status).

(01-22-2014 08:47 AM)zarzuelazen Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 12:30 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  Don't know if it's been mentioned, but the lack of intrinsic value in bitcoins makes it hard for me to invest mid/long term.

All this, because ultimately, data, even encrypted, isn't worth anything.
A bitcoin system backed by a commodity, such as gold/silver/oil, would be a lot more interesting.

m2c

True.

But here's the big problem with Bitcoin as an investment:

Although the tech behind Bitcoin (i.e. block-chain) is an innovation, the same tech can be used for any number of rival coins. So even if I agree that the tech is a real innovation and crypto-currencies are the way of the future (which I do), the big problem is there is no real reason for the price of Bitcoin to keep rising when more and more rival coins keep appearing.

One scenario I can see is the price of Bitcoin crashing to a floor of around $US 200 as other rival coins suck away all the cash. So even if Bitcoin is here to stay, it's price may well fall to some fixed point and never rise again.

Zarzuelazen:

The argument that you making concerning the uncertainty and the potential overvaluation of BTC is valid, and the scenario that you describe regarding BTC being overtaken by another crypto-currency(ies) is a possibility; however it seems to be very speculative, at the moment because it seems to downplay momentum and the irrationality of momentum. Whenever we are looking at investments, we should be attempting to measure momentum and BTC has retained most of the current crypto-currency momentum.

Surely, some day BTC’sw advantage could dissapate, and BTC’s momentum could change suddenly and that is why BTC should NOT be the totality of any guy's investment. A problem with the scenario that you describe is that you are suggesting that BTC is overvalued and only worth $200 given the other crypto-currencies competition and because of that we should steer clear of BTC; however, at the moment, none of the other crypto-currencies have the BTC momentum that exists and will likely continue to exist into the near future.


An attractive aspect of BTC for any investor remains its uncertainty, its volatility and its general upward momentum (that may or may NOT last forever, as you suggest). I personally believe that guys can invest in BTC either long-term or short-term and can profit from such (or lose depending on timing and/or overall investment strategy), and if any guy were to invest as if he were a fund manager, he would only put a small percentage of his total investment into BTC (and to hedge his bets). And in that respect, if BTC becomes more mainstream, there are going to be a lot of fund managers that are going to want to place a percentage of their managed portfolios into BTC or some other crypto-curriencies. For a lot of reasons NOT limited to momentum, BTC remains an attractive investment candidate.

For investment purposes, currently, the competetion of other cryptocurrencies is NOT a bad thing for BTC, unless BTC were to lose its momentum. As an investor, we would hope that we are NOT so loyal to any one cryptocurrency as to miss any opportunity that may be presented to abandon ship and/or move to another cryptocurrency. At this time, BTC is doing well and BTC continues to have good prospects because it continues to be expanding in a large number of ways (vendors, developers, network, investors, speculators, and consumers). At the same time, you are correct, there are a variety of potential scenarios that BTC’s value could drop – but in my thinking, currently, none of those negative scenarios are imminent.

(01-22-2014 02:40 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  Technology, as a whole seems to me like a huge issue in Bitcoins...
I mean what if everybody owns a quantum computer in 15 years? The encryption technology will be worthless, so will be the bitcoins. There's just so many "what if's" when we look at the future technology/bitcoin issue

I agree that there are a lot of “what ifs” in respect to BTC and other cryptocurrencies; however, you just presented a 15 year scenario –that currently is NOT imminent and I would NOT discontinue investing in BTC merely because of a speculation about what could occur 15 years from now.

(01-22-2014 08:47 AM)zarzuelazen Wrote:  

(01-17-2014 12:30 PM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  Don't know if it's been mentioned, but the lack of intrinsic value in bitcoins makes it hard for me to invest mid/long term.

All this, because ultimately, data, even encrypted, isn't worth anything.
A bitcoin system backed by a commodity, such as gold/silver/oil, would be a lot more interesting.

m2c

True.

But here's the big problem with Bitcoin as an investment:

Although the tech behind Bitcoin (i.e. block-chain) is an innovation, the same tech can be used for any number of rival coins. So even if I agree that the tech is a real innovation and crypto-currencies are the way of the future (which I do), the big problem is there is no real reason for the price of Bitcoin to keep rising when more and more rival coins keep appearing.

One scenario I can see is the price of Bitcoin crashing to a floor of around $US 200 as other rival coins suck away all the cash. So even if Bitcoin is here to stay, it's price may well fall to some fixed point and never rise again.

Bitcoin has the network effect advantage

If they can fix a couple of things, mainly the 1mb block limit. There is nothing revolutionary about other altcoin offers

(01-21-2014 02:36 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  ^ Chinas volume is fake.

I have very little knowledge from where you are getting your information about China's trade volume being fake. You have made this assertion a few times, and you suggest that you are getting your information from BTC e troll box and fiatleaks.

I looked at fiatleaks. Generally, fiatleaks.com shows most of the BTC trade volume to be taking place through the USA or China (and only a fractional amount through other locations). Consistently, China's volume on fiatleaks is highest - generally ranging anywhere between 3 to 10 times the volume of the US.

That is what you are asserting to be fake, or something else?

Who is faking it? And, what is the motive for faking it? It sounds as if you are suggesting that BTC volume is some kind of overall conspiracy theory of pump and dump and there is NO long-term legitimacy in BTC b/c of various smoke and mirrors tactics. Is that what you are suggesting?

If so, do you have any sources for your assertion, besides the BTC e troll box? I have a couple of problems with the BTC e troll box. First, it would be very time consuming to try to follow the BTC e troll box and to try to follow what the posters are writing therein. Second, it would be very difficult to figure out which poster sources, therein, are good sources for BTC information, if any. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT hating on the BTC e troll box completely, b/c I do believe some valuable information can be gleaned from such BTC e troll box, and sometimes these kinds of troll boxes are breakers of latest and greatest news (regarding BTC or other crypto currencies) - -- Nonetheless, the BTC e troll box is also filled with a lot of hype and a lot of misinformation (and jokers), and in the end, a guy needs some talents to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Accordingly, I would prefer to base my investment actions on more reliable sources…. Though I do NOT have any specific ones myself except for watching the overall news, and recently I have been following quite a few redditt news sources concerning BTC. I admit that reddit sources are generally bullish on BTC; however, I read any news with a grain of salt and I attempt to cross check my news sources, when feasible.

(01-21-2014 02:36 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  If it wasn't a 300 coin sell wall on BTC-E wouldn't make a difference in the price but they go down just like everyone else when it happens.

(01-21-2014 06:49 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  Walls down, chance to make some small change..

You seem to be talking to big shot insiders or big shot BTC’ers, here? I cannot see that many RVF guys are trading 300+ BTC at any time (or that many RVF’ers even have 300+ BTC in their investment portfolios - even though the price of BTC could be affected by the ability of other investers to make 300+ BTC trades. Are you trading in more than 300 BTC increments?

If so, I feel like very small potatoes in the BTC world because I am only up to a little over 18 BTC in my portfolio, after nearly two months of small increment buying.

(01-21-2014 06:20 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  I'm all in NMC right now.

To me, this also makes very little sense about why a guy would get out of BTC for any of these other alt-crypto currencies… and specifically NMC? What advantage does NMC have over any other alt crypto coin or even being in dollars? I do NOT understand why anyone would do such. I would imagine if BTC crashes, then these various alt crypto currencies would also be likely to crash too….. unless there is something special about one or more of them that causes movement from BTC to one or more of these alt currencies – I do NOT recognize NMC to be such a crypto currency that would react opposite to BTC in the market.

(01-22-2014 10:57 PM)brg444 Wrote:  Bitcoin has the network effect advantage

If they can fix a couple of things, mainly the 1mb block limit. There is nothing revolutionary about other altcoin offers

Brg444:

I agree with your overall points, above, and in order to become more informed about your concerns about the 1mb block limit, I just read some information about that.

I do NOT claim to be any kind of expert about any technical aspects of BTC; however, it appears that the 1mb block limit is currently programed into BTC but such 1mb block limit is NOT currently negatively limiting BTC transactions – yet the 1 mb limit is expected to be reached in 1 to 2 years (based on current expected rates of growth). Additionally, it appears that with consensus of the miners, the 1mb limit can be raised – and in the end, the currently built in 1mb block limit is NO real and/or meaningful problem for BTC.

On a related note: there have been some criticisms about BTC being too slow in confirmations of transactions (which will cause it to be impractical for commercial and/or quick retail transactions), yet, it seems that there are a lot of ways that those lack of speed concerns can be addressed.
Personally, I find BTC to have problems with lack of user friendly interfaces and to be very technically difficult - NOT very user friendly with applications and/or security of BTC investments – however, I have confidence that with continued innovations of BTC developers (which seems to be ongoing), some kind of “Apple-like” company(ies) is/are going to come to BTC and present some user-friendly BTC interfaces. I am of the belief that we remain so much on the ground level of BTC innovations, and there is going to be a lot of movement in this BTC space in the coming couple of years – which is going to cause wide spread adoption, improvement in user-friendliness and security and an accompanied rise in BTC prices.

I've slowly been buying Mastercoins (MSC) and are now almost all in only saved some BTC if I need fiat.

They are built on top of the bitcoin layer and will integrate many new functions.

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2014...velopment/
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2014/01/2...-platform/

It is another altcoin but it's not just a copycat or with a minor change but a new protocol.

(01-20-2014 03:55 PM)Maciano Wrote:  I'll be cash on 24th january, at highpoint that day.

From then on, I'm going to wait until 30th, after the whole China New Year thing plays out. I reckon, whatever I could lose can't be as much as what you could gain, so cash best option IMO. Last time FUD halved the exchange rate in a couple of days. (After which it bounced back, of course.)

Funny thing about the 24/7 nature of the BTC market, things happen at all ungodly hours.

Currently, Guys on the BTC e troll box are saying that the BTC dump is starting, as I write. The anticipations are varied but expectations of a $500 drop and some say never to go up again and others say that BTC prices will boom after this drop.

And by looking at fiatleaks, it does appear that activity in china has increased and the BTC prices seem to be falling - hovering around 810 in the last 24 hours, and now falling into the 770 levels - and appearing to continue to be falling. Maybe we will get down to $500? I am NOT sure? I do NOT really expect for BTC to get that low, but never say never.

I had also been reading that various mechanisms have been put into place in china in order that there is NO real obstacles for chinese to get fiat into and out of the BTC exchanges (various work arounds).

All crypto coins are generally going down 5-20%; however, Mooncoin whichis 4.5 million market cap and is up nearly 300%... whatever the fuck is Mooncoin, and who would have known? Also there are a few other of the alt crypto coins that are up including the new ron paul coin which is only a 350,000 market cap and up 90%.... who can keep track of these various alt crypto coins... b/c there appear to be over 80 listed on coinmarketcap. Just two months ago, there were fewer than 40.

(01-24-2014 12:33 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 03:55 PM)Maciano Wrote:  I'll be cash on 24th january, at highpoint that day.

From then on, I'm going to wait until 30th, after the whole China New Year thing plays out. I reckon, whatever I could lose can't be as much as what you could gain, so cash best option IMO. Last time FUD halved the exchange rate in a couple of days. (After which it bounced back, of course.)

Funny thing about the 24/7 nature of the BTC market, things happen at all ungodly hours.

Currently, Guys on the BTC e troll box are saying that the BTC dump is starting, as I write. The anticipations are varied but expectations of a $500 drop and some say never to go up again and others say that BTC prices will boom after this drop.

And by looking at fiatleaks, it does appear that activity in china has increased and the BTC prices seem to be falling - hovering around 810 in the last 24 hours, and now falling into the 770 levels - and appearing to continue to be falling. Maybe we will get down to $500? I am NOT sure? I do NOT really expect for BTC to get that low, but never say never.

I had also been reading that various mechanisms have been put into place in china in order that there is NO real obstacles for chinese to get fiat into and out of the BTC exchanges (various work arounds).

All crypto coins are generally going down 5-20%; however, Mooncoin whichis 4.5 million market cap and is up nearly 300%... whatever the fuck is Mooncoin, and who would have known? Also there are a few other of the alt crypto coins that are up including the new ron paul coin which is only a 350,000 market cap and up 90%.... who can keep track of these various alt crypto coins... b/c there appear to be over 80 listed on coinmarketcap. Just two months ago, there were fewer than 40.

The ones interesting are the one witch actually are providing something new like Mastercoins, Nxt and Protoshares and maybe also Namecoins.

Some interesting news regarding bitcoin

EBay considering accepting bitcoin as payment:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101356642


TigerDirect Becomes the Latest Retail Giant to Pounce on Bitcoin:

http://www.coindesk.com/tiger-direct-accept-bitcoin/

(01-24-2014 06:08 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  Some interesting news regarding bitcoin

EBay considering accepting bitcoin as payment:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101356642


TigerDirect Becomes the Latest Retail Giant to Pounce on Bitcoin:

http://www.coindesk.com/tiger-direct-accept-bitcoin/

Yeah. TigerDirect seems to be a pretty big business – even bigger than Overstock in terms of sales and geeky products.

Regarding E-bay: I find the discussion interesting. I thought that I had read that E-Bay UK had already begun taking BTC for payments. I did NOT know that the BTC / ebay related discussion should be directed towards the buying and selling of BTC on e-bay. Buying and selling of BTC seems to be a more risky proposition and would thereby, potentially, be in need of a money transmitter license. On the other hand, if e-bay were to offer BTC as one of its payment options, then that would be another story (and a easier adoption). E-Bay accepting BTC would be very big, yet for some reason I see that as being further into the future because BTC seems to compete fairly directly with Paypal, as a payment mechanism. If BTC succeeds, then likely Paypal would be diminished or possibly priced out of the market – unless either E-bay or Paypal were able to connive or create some kind of creative scheme to harmonize the acceptance of BTC with its existing business model.

(01-24-2014 05:09 AM)friheten Wrote:  The ones interesting are the one witch actually are providing something new like Mastercoins, Nxt and Protoshares and maybe also Namecoins.

Friheten:

I hear what you are saying about focusing on investing in specific alt currencies – rather than having some unfocus on the whole gamut of alt currencies, and thanks for pointing out / highlighting four.

My understanding is similar to yours that the alt-currency needs to offer something of value that BTC does NOT offer or something of value that BTC cannot easily incorporate into its framework.

One of my reluctances in investing in alt-currencies is the ease (or lack thereof) in accomplishing such. I have put some money (less than $250 in each) into the seven alt-currencies listed on BTC – e (litecoin, peercoin, namecoin, feathercoin, novacoin, primecoin and teracoin). Yes, I do recognize my small investment into those particular altcoins to be fairly arbitrary and without much reason (except for the fact that they are recognized on the BTC e exchange). None of them is doing particularly well in comparison to BTC (though i have NOT invested too much), yet I may need to consider a more focused investment method in respect to alt currencies.

I know that your investment situation is different from mine; however, I remain of the belief that a higher percentage of crypto-currency investments should be in BTC rather than alt crypto currencies... including Mastercoin – however, you may be correct and/or lucky that Mastercoin is more on the ground floor regarding upside potential with greater upside potential – yet to me, it seems that BTC continues to have a considerable amount of upside potential with potentially more stability than some of the alt-crypto currencies (and a lot of them are fairly unstable and a lot more volatile than BTC - and that is saying quite a bit), even the ones that you listed seem to be quite volatile – yet you remain correct that if a guy were to invest correctly in the most appropriate alt currencies, then there may be even greater upside potential with those alt currencies.

I know how to easily get into Namecoin through BTC e; however, Mastercoins, Nxt and Protoshares are NOT listed on BTC e.

Therefore, did you invest in Mastercoin by directly contacting the Mastercoin people through their website?

I take it that you are NOT yet invested into Nxt or Protoshares, but if you were to invest into those two alt currencies, how would you accomplish such? would you contact them and invest directly or would you invest through some exchange?

(01-24-2014 02:31 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(01-24-2014 05:09 AM)friheten Wrote:  The ones interesting are the one witch actually are providing something new like Mastercoins, Nxt and Protoshares and maybe also Namecoins.

Friheten:

I hear what you are saying about focusing on investing in specific alt currencies – rather than having some unfocus on the whole gamut of alt currencies, and thanks for pointing out / highlighting four.

My understanding is similar to yours that the alt-currency needs to offer something of value that BTC does NOT offer or something of value that BTC cannot easily incorporate into its framework.
One of my reluctances in investing in alt-currencies is the ease (or lack thereof) in accomplishing such. I have put some money (less than $250 in each) into the seven alt-currencies listed on BTC – e (litecoin, peercoin, namecoin, feathercoin, novacoin, primecoin and teracoin). Yes, I do recognize my small investment into those particular altcoins to be fairly arbitrary and without much reason (except for the fact that they are recognized on the BTC e exchange). None of them is doing particularly well in comparison to BTC (though i have NOT invested too much), yet I may need to consider a more focused investment method in respect to alt currencies.

Non of the alt-coins you name have any major changes. Except maybe namecoin. To invest in a coin just because they are on a certain exchange is in my opinion a stupid choice. There is probably more people that thinks the same as you meaning that the value from this coins comes from the fact that they are listed on BTC-e and therefor giving them a value.

(01-24-2014 02:31 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  I know that your investment situation is different from mine; however, I remain of the belief that a higher percentage of crypto-currency investments should be in BTC rather than alt crypto currencies... including Mastercoin – however, you may be correct and/or lucky that Mastercoin is more on the ground floor regarding upside potential with greater upside potential – yet to me, it seems that BTC continues to have a considerable amount of upside potential with potentially more stability than some of the alt-crypto currencies (and a lot of them are fairly unstable and a lot more volatile than BTC - and that is saying quite a bit), even the ones that you listed seem to be quite volatile – yet you remain correct that if a guy were to invest correctly in the most appropriate alt currencies, then there may be even greater upside potential with those alt currencies.

Mastercoins is not another alt-coin but another protocol.

(01-24-2014 02:31 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  I know how to easily get into Namecoin through BTC e; however, Mastercoins, Nxt and Protoshares are NOT listed on BTC e.

I've been buying Mastercoins using this exchange: https://masterxchange.com/bid.php and this escrow service: https://mcoin.io/#/
How to get the Nxt and protoshares I don't know I'm not sure if there is any exchange or if the only way to get them is contacting sellers directly.

(01-24-2014 02:31 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Therefore, did you invest in Mastercoin by directly contacting the Mastercoin people through their website?

I take it that you are NOT yet invested into Nxt or Protoshares, but if you were to invest into those two alt currencies, how would you accomplish such? would you contact them and invest directly or would you invest through some exchange?

If I were to invest in them I would have a look at the market and do my research before I made any buy. Both of those project are interesting however I've decided not to put any money into them at this point. Another interesting project is eMunie witch is not yet released. However I do not think I will put any money into that one either. Protoshares are interesting too, however how it's built it wont rocket in price.

As of now Mastercoins is the most interesting in my opinion. They have at least two full time developers working on the project. One of them is the fonder who recently sold $1.5 Millions of his Mastercoins to quit his job and be on this full time. Mastercoins could open up many new ways to use crypto currencies. They are right now working on a decentralized exchange and if they manage to get it up and working I believe that the price will move upwards since exchange between Bitcoins and Mastercoins would be without middleman. If various alt-coins without any real use, compared to already excising coins get value from just being listed on BTC-e, then a decentralized exchange would give even more value.

Worth to notice is that Mastercoins is not created by mining like Bitcoins but instead there was a fundraising in September where anyone could but Mastercoins for Bitcoins. They were 0.01 a piece and a total of around 4700BTC were gained. And 500.000MSC were created and disturbed between whoever been bought the shares. So they are not at all as well disturbed as Bitcoin and I believe the creator is holding a big percentage even though he just sold for $1.5 Millions. Those BTC raised have been put into a foundation witch are used to keep the project going. Right now there is a 300 BTC bounty up for whoever can show a working decentralized exchange. BTC-e does not exchange MSC. The other alt-coins are very similar to BTC.. therefor if you have integrated BTC to your website there is not that hard to integrate one of it's clones. Mastercoins are a new project and therefor it will take a lot more work to integrate.

The Mastercoin market is even more violate and I'm right now at slightly minus. However that don't bother me much since I'm not buying this coins for the shortterm but because I expect a raise in value over time.

Yup, it can.

(01-25-2014 04:41 AM)friheten Wrote:  Non of the alt-coins you name have any major changes. Except maybe namecoin. To invest in a coin just because they are on a certain exchange is in my opinion a stupid choice. There is probably more people that thinks the same as you meaning that the value from this coins comes from the fact that they are listed on BTC-e and therefor giving them a value.

For the most part, I do agree with your theory that if a guy were to invest long term into any of the alt crypto currencies, then the guy should choose such alt currency investments based on the currency offering some kind of advantage that cannot be co-opted into BTC - b/c it is NOT very likely that any one of the alt crypto currencies are going to steal away any meaningful market share from BTC in the event that the alt cryptos are NOT offering some kind of value that cannot be co-opted into BTC.

I do NOT consider my token $250-ish that is invested into each of the following: litecoin, peercoin, namecoin, feathercoin, novacoin, primecoin and teracoin - to be any seriously contemplated long-term investment avenue. I invested that money into those alt crypto currencies as a means to create an incentive for me to monitor and think about the possibility of investing in alt-crypto currencies (a sort of place holder). Whether that investment choice was or remains "stupid," would likely depend on whether there is any sound reason for such. Probably, it would NOT be smart to get out of those alt-currencies right NOW, but stupid is another level that depends on whether or NOT there is any logical purpose for my having put some money into them.

Currently, I continue to monitor those 7 alt-crypto currencies, but I would NOT get out of them NOW – because they are generally leaning a little bit down from my overall investment into them. If I choose to get out of those alt-currencies, it would be better for me to do so after an additional spurt in prices (which is likely to come in the coming months). I am NOT too worried about that money and whether I lose it, but I am pretty confident that I will be able to recoup all of the money that I invested into those alt-currencies - once the prices go up (which seems pretty likely to me). And, in fact, in the scheme of all investments, these are NOT stupid - b/c there is a risk with any avenue that all could be lost, including BTC investments - and I am keeping that in mind, also (which probably makes me fairly more conservative with my overall approach).

In about the last 5 weeks, any of MY new and ongoing dollar cost averaging investments have been going into BTC, ONLY.

Also, even though you may be correct about Mastercoin, Nxt and Protoshares, at this time, I am NOT planning to venture down those investment avenues. Possibly, at some later date, I may change my mind, if circumstances change for me or if it seems feasible for me to go down that investment path.




I realize that these days miners can profit from all kinds of weird, obscure and random alt crypto currencies. But there seems to be NO meaningful reason for non-miners to get involved in these random crypto currencies, including dogecoin, unless he were to be contemplating a pump and dump or to time his investment with a pump and dump.

(01-25-2014 11:37 PM)pants Wrote:  

Yup, it can.

My understanding is that BTC can absorb a large majority of features offered by alt crypto currencies – except there may be a few features that BTC cannot absorb because of the way that BTC has been designed. For example, BTC has the 21,000,000 limit to be reached in 2140. I believe that there is NO way to change that limit, and I have a sense that having a limit of 21,000,000 is a structural flaw - because it would cause BTC to go up in value too much because it would NOT be sufficiently expanding in order to facilitate expanding population and/or lost coins – unless for some reason by 2140 there are fewer people needing to use BTC. (However, I certainly am NO expert regarding these kinds of questions of monetary supply and the effects of scarcity).

There are also some features that are built into BTC’s security that seem to be both advantages and disadvantages, but create longer term BTC stability for BTC. Another alt-currency could be less secure, and accordingly serve a function or need that BTC cannot serve.


EDIT: By the way, on a side topic. It seems to me that Fiatleaks shows all BTC exchange activity, NOT just the BTC buys. I believe it shows both BTC buys and sells.

Why is 21 million a flaw?

As long as you can divide one bitcoin in 100 millions, they still can be used to make small purchases.
I do believe the 21 million is a hard limit, however how many pieces a bitcoin can be divided in is not a hard limit.

(01-26-2014 01:25 AM)pants Wrote:  Why is 21 million a flaw?

As long as you can divide one bitcoin in 100 millions, they still can be used to make small purchases.
I do believe the 21 million is a hard limit, however how many pieces a bitcoin can be divided in is not a hard limit.

I may be expressing too much of an opinion beyond my league of knowledge........ but let me give it a shot to respond to your counter-point.

I get the idea of nearly infinite divisibility of BTC (currently set at 100 million satoshis), and that would certainly cause for more than adequate supply of BTC ... like hundreds of trillions of satoshis.....

However, in my thinking there needs to continue to be some expansion of the supply of BTC into the future in order that the value of BTC remains stable rather than increasing in value too much.

For example, every four years, the amount of the expansion of the BTC supply is diminishing. I think that it is currently at either at 12% or 6.5% annually, and in 2016, the expansion of BTC supply will decrease by half. Personally, I think that a continued 2-3% expansion of the BTC supply would be a better thing for stability as a long term currency which would accomplish the ability to replace lost coins and to account for expansions in the population and the expansion of use of BTC.

In my thinking if BTC does NOT sufficiently expand its supply, it becomes way too valuable and all investments will flock to BTC b/c of its value.

For example, Peercoin built in a continued 1% expansion of its currency, (which seems too low of a percentage to me), and this shows that some alt cryptocurrencies may have features that BTC does NOT have.

Certainly, I believe that the shortage of supply BTC and/or the lack of expansion is NOT going to kill BTC in the short run... but it may prove to be a long term problem for BTC.. maybe... I am sort of speculating... and my current perception of this problem is NOT going to stop me from investing in BTC for the near term.

(01-25-2014 11:37 PM)pants Wrote:  

Yup, it can.

It can.

The focus of bitcoin devs is now on fully finishing product, it's still beta (heh). If you're rly interested, check out Jeff garzik, Andreas Antonopoulos, Mike heard, gavin andresen. They talk abt bitcoin development. Vitalik bruterin did create Ethereum, a blockchain based altcoin, that can do a lot more than bitcoin at this point.

I think bitcoin will (as Marc Andreessen argued) will grow to dominance through network effect. The analogy is w/ dotcom domain names and dotnet, dotinfo or dottv. These top level DNS names are all perfectly valid and usable, but they'll never be premium like dotcom. There will be altcoins w/ a function; Litecoin as 2nd tier, some coin for tipping like Doge (LOL), some local country or specific purpose stuff, but only one will grow to real dominance. Whatever function blockchains will cover, like Ethereum, when it comes to currency/value/banking/stocks bitcoin will be number #1.

JJG.

No one wants to put their money in a deflationary system.
At least if you keep your fiat-money in a bank. At least you will stay afloat above inflation. With a crypto, it will be long term drowning instead.


If each coin are infinite divisible, the entire network could run on a single bitcoin.

One problem I can see is when all bitcoin are mined. The only income for miners will be from transaction fees, and there simply won't be enough room for many people to operate. Leaving the network vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Yeah, if a satoshi ends up being worth 1c, then that's a market cap of $21 quadrillion. That's not exactly too low of a ceiling.

Looks like the big plunge has started in the run-up to the end of Jan!

Feds just arrested the CEO of a major Bitcoin exchange

"The CEO of BitInstant, a Bitcoin exchange, has been arrested at JFK airport and charged with money laundering.

Charlie Shrem, along with a co-conspirator, is accused of selling over $US1 million in Bitcoin to Silk Road users, who would then use them to buy drugs and other illicit items."

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/report...ted-2014-1

Bitcoins below $800 and plunging!

Absolutely awesome podcast. Joe Rogan's podcast is the most popular podcasts in the world.

(01-27-2014 11:15 PM)zarzuelazen Wrote:  Feds just arrested the CEO of a major Bitcoin exchange

"The CEO of BitInstant, a Bitcoin exchange, has been arrested at JFK airport and charged with money laundering.

Charlie Shrem, along with a co-conspirator, is accused of selling over $US1 million in Bitcoin to Silk Road users, who would then use them to buy drugs and other illicit items."

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/report...ted-2014-1

Bitcoins below $800 and plunging!

It does seem that BTC may also be reacting in a downward manner to some extent to various pieces of news – like the news that you mention, here. But in the end, the positive news for BTC seems to outweigh these fringe pieces of news – that are NOT really about BTC – but instead the charges / allegations are about laundering, conspiring and other illegal activities – including drugs, sex and rock and roll.

(01-28-2014 09:57 AM)strengthstudent Wrote:  Absolutely awesome podcast. Joe Rogan's podcast is the most popular podcasts in the world.

I have NOT quite gotten to listen to this podcast,yet, but yesterday I had downloaded it onto my iphone.

In the last month or so, I have been following Andreas Antonopoulos quite a bit, and he is very much a bitcoin evangelist – and very knowledgable and articulate about BTC and the BTC network, as well. Sometimes, Antonopoulos has received criticisms for being too pro-BTC and shrugging off regulators. In recent times, Antonopoulous has frequently been quoted as saying fuck off to regulators – and some people in the BTC community believe that those kinds of comments are too much because those kinds of comments are just going to get regulators to target BTC and to realize that BTC is a threat to the dollar. I would NOT be surprised if the strength and seeming effectiveness of Antonopoulos’s advocating for BTC does NOT get him into fabricated trouble (meaning trouble based on some trumped up charges).

(01-27-2014 11:15 PM)zarzuelazen Wrote:  Looks like the big plunge has started in the run-up to the end of Jan!

I really cannot figure out what is going on with BTC – especially in respect to the hypothesized end of the month dynamics…. But I would hardly characterize BTC activities in the last few days, so far, as a “big plunge.”

I keep suggesting my thinking that in early to mid-December the BTC market already did most of its adjusting to the China limitations news. However, that does NOT mean that there could be some kinds of continued last minute downward reactions and also quite a few people pulling out of BTC to wait out the 31st (like some guys in this forum).

On the 23rd, I noticed a considerable uptick in the fiatleaks BTC traffic, and it went from BTC trading of less than 500BTC an hour to trading between 1000BTC to 2500BTC an hour – however, that volume of trade was NOTHING compared to the trading volume that was going on for most of yesterday, which was between 5000BTC and 8500BTC an hour. Even with those very high levels of trading, BTC prices were NOT plunging. I know because I kept wanting to buy BTC if there were such a plunge. I bought at $759, and then I was waiting to buy more in the low $700s if it were to go into the lower $700s. Fairly quickly we got down to nearly $730 and then back into the $750s for several more hours. Now, as I write, BTC is back in the $810s.

EDIT: BTW- when I am referring to BTC volume in the last 24 hours, the BTC trade volume has been mostly (more than 95%) carried out in US Dollar and Chinese Yuan - and the volume on the Yuan has been about 20 times the volume involving the Dollar (in months past, the volume of the Yuan over the dollar usually has been hovering between 5 and 10 times greater than the dollar).