Post: #451

Lebron James.

Haters Gonna Hate.

Post: #452

(05-23-2013 10:34 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  Lebron James.

Haters Gonna Hate.

He was definitely in full-on "LePass" and "LeHide in LeCorner" mode until those last few possessions. Looked like the Boston semis and the Dallas Finals there for about 12 minutes until he finally stepped up and won it. Big props to him but this is why he'll never quite reach MJ's levels - MJ never disappeared for 12 minute hunks in huge games.

Post: #453

I don't hate lebron because he's great - i just hate him because he's unbearable to watch. it's like watching an orangutan play ball. Just like I hate tim duncan because he's boring. Greatness has nothing to do with it.

Post: #454

(05-23-2013 10:41 AM)SHANbangs Wrote:  I don't hate lebron because he's great - i just hate him because he's unbearable to watch. it's like watching an orangutan play ball. Just like I hate tim duncan because he's boring. Greatness has nothing to do with it.

It's fun to root against him I fully get it (dont think I've ever rooted for him unless gambling was involved), but he's the second best player in the history of the sport - and probably the most physically impressive of all time.

Post: #455

(05-23-2013 10:24 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  In 2 seconds, you're not concerned with guarding the rim - you're concerned with getting a hand up on what's probably going to be a jump shot.

The coach did it twice at the end of the game and both times LeBron James scored easily. If you're gonna put George out there one-on-one, you have to have help behind him. 2 seconds is not a lot of time, but sometimes it can be a longer 2 seconds when you are playing at home. Lebron made the right play by going strong to the rim, with the high percentage shot. George overplayed James, which made it easier to get to the rim.

Post: #456

(05-23-2013 10:45 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  he's the second best player in the history of the sport

Not sure how you put him ahead of guys with multiple rings (Kobe, Magic, Bill Russel, etc) or even a guy like the Big O, who AVERAGED a tipple double over a season.

Post: #457

(05-23-2013 10:49 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:24 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  In 2 seconds, you're not concerned with guarding the rim - you're concerned with getting a hand up on what's probably going to be a jump shot.

The coach did it twice at the end of the game and both times LeBron James scored easily. If you're gonna put George out there one-on-one, you have to have help behind him. 2 seconds is not a lot of time, but sometimes it can be a longer 2 seconds when you are playing at home. Lebron made the right play by going strong to the rim, with the high percentage shot. George overplayed James, which made it easier to get to the rim.

But George had literally SHUT LEBRON OUT during the entire last 5 minutes of regulation and OT. There was no reason to think that he couldn't do it one last time... The problem was that George just got too excited and overpursued on the inbounds pass, and that was all she wrote. It was a fatal mistake that took about .5 of a second and one extra giant stride that crossed him out of the play.

Post: #458

(05-23-2013 10:52 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:45 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  he's the second best player in the history of the sport

Not sure how you put him ahead of guys with multiple rings (Kobe, Magic, Bill Russel, etc) or even a guy like the Big O, who AVERAGED a tipple double over a season.

He's clearly on a trajectory that will surpass Kobe. If he blew out his knee tomorrow and never plays again than no. But if he finishes out his career and wins 4 more rings (likely) on this path than he's probably number 2 of all time.

Here's Bill Simmons' top 10 of all time from the book of basketball, but that was prior to Kobe's last ring and LeBron's last 4 seasons of dominance:

10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
7. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
1. Michael Jordan

My personal top 5 of all time (allowing for current careers to play out the way we expect them to) is: Jordan, LeBron, Russell, Kobe, Magic

Post: #459

Post: #460

(05-23-2013 10:49 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:24 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  In 2 seconds, you're not concerned with guarding the rim - you're concerned with getting a hand up on what's probably going to be a jump shot.

The coach did it twice at the end of the game and both times LeBron James scored easily. If you're gonna put George out there one-on-one, you have to have help behind him. 2 seconds is not a lot of time, but sometimes it can be a longer 2 seconds when you are playing at home. Lebron made the right play by going strong to the rim, with the high percentage shot. George overplayed James, which made it easier to get to the rim.

...and on that first play David West had the opportunity to step in front of LeBron, but instead swiped down on the ball (and committed a foul that wasn't called...HA HA!). LeBron powered through that and still scored. That was more about the players on the court not executing - he was more concerned about not leaving his man, instead of getting in front of LeBron and forcing him to pass to the corner for a jump shot. Sure, without Hibbert in there the Heat are more likely to attack, but that's all the more reason why you should be less concerned about a shooter in the corner, and more concerned about stepping in on the drive. When you play defense, you have to have an eye on your man, and on the ball so you can come off your man and give help.

Comparing it to the block on Carmelo is faulty because the game situation was totally different, just like on the first LeBron drive to the basket.

Post: #461

(05-23-2013 10:59 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:52 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:45 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  he's the second best player in the history of the sport

Not sure how you put him ahead of guys with multiple rings (Kobe, Magic, Bill Russel, etc) or even a guy like the Big O, who AVERAGED a tipple double over a season.

He's clearly on a trajectory that will surpass Kobe. If he blew out his knee tomorrow and never plays again than no. But if he finishes out his career and wins 4 more rings (likely) on this path than he's probably number 2 of all time.

Here's Bill Simmons' top 10 of all time from the book of basketball, but that was prior to Kobe's last ring and LeBron's last 4 seasons of dominance:

10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
7. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
1. Michael Jordan

My personal top 5 of all time (allowing for current careers to play out the way we expect them to) is: Jordan, LeBron, Russell, Kobe, Magic

I hate Lebron, but I have to admit he's on a trajectory into the historic top 5, and may even one day rival Jordan, and will certainly surpass kobe. Remember, Kobe won his first 3 rings as the second best player on his team. And there were only a few years when Kobe was thought to be the unrivaled best in the league. Post-Shaq, he had to contend with T-mac for a few years. After his 4th ring, the torch was already being passed to Lebron. And this is coming from a big kobe fan.

Lebron's statistical dominance is just out of this world, and efficiency is insane. The only thing that hurts him is that he teamed up with D-Wade and Bosh. That's a better combo than even Kobe-Shaq or Jordan-Pippen.

Post: #462

(05-23-2013 05:42 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  Vogel is a great coach / not sure you can blame him for the games MVP (George) being too eager on defense. He had utterly shut LeBron down all 4th quarter and OT.

Let's be objective here. PG didn't shut down LeBron all 4th quarter and OT. First of all, LeBron was fully active running the point, finding teammates for open looks, and getting offensive rebounds. He just wasn't driving because Hibbert was at the rim. Yeah, that makes George look like a better defender than he actually is. No doubt he is already a great defender but he isn't "shutting down" LeBron on anything.

(05-23-2013 05:43 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  Pacers and spurs will at least make Heat earn it - unlike Thunder last year who were overwhelmed by the stage of the Finals

Yeah, Pacers and Spurs will definitely make Miami earn it. However, if Miami wins game 2 tomorrow, I predict this is over in 5 or 6. If Indiana can win it tomorrow, it will probably go 7.

(05-23-2013 10:24 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  The Heat had a bunch of shooters on the floor. In 2 seconds, you're not concerned with guarding the rim - you're concerned with getting a hand up on what's probably going to be a jump shot. Hibbert can't chase a shooter. Paul George didn't do HIS job on that play. They never should have gotten a layup with 2 seconds left. I know it's the media's job to Monday Morning QB on this, but Vogel made the best judgment considering the time on the clock. If there's more time than that, yeah, you have Hibbert out there. It just turned out badly this time.

Valid point. I think this was one of those gamble moves that if it works he is hailed as a genius, if it fails he is being crucified. Sort of like how Pop sat TD in game 6 for Tiago Splitter. It wasn't a completely dumb coaching move, just a sort of a gamble in my opinion.

(05-23-2013 10:39 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:34 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  Lebron James.

Haters Gonna Hate.

He was definitely in full-on "LePass" and "LeHide in LeCorner" mode until those last few possessions. Looked like the Boston semis and the Dallas Finals there for about 12 minutes until he finally stepped up and won it. Big props to him but this is why he'll never quite reach MJ's levels - MJ never disappeared for 12 minute hunks in huge games.

He definitely was not in "LePass" or "LeHide in LeCorner" mode in the 4th and OT. If you are just looking at scoring then okay, but he wasn't just passing the ball to the next man like he did against Dallas, he was actually making plays for the team. It's not his fault that Chris Bosh and Ray Allen both missed wide open corner 3s (the highest percentage 3 in the game) in the last two minutes of regulation. He also got an important offensive rebound. The only play that was bad was when he took a desperation mid-range jumper that was way off with about 90 seconds left in regulation. He also hit a 3 with about 4:00 left in regulation to put Miami up by 5.

He may never reach MJ's level although I disagree with that. But he did not "disappear" last night. He was kept scoreless for stretches but that's not the same thing as disappearing. He finished with 30 10 10 on 50% shooting so I am not sure this is the best game to say he will never reach MJ's level.

(05-23-2013 10:41 AM)SHANbangs Wrote:  I don't hate lebron because he's great - i just hate him because he's unbearable to watch. it's like watching an orangutan play ball. Just like I hate tim duncan because he's boring. Greatness has nothing to do with it.

Not sure what you mean by watching an orangutan play ball. And TD isn't boring either (at least not to me). The Spurs used to be a boring team because they were more defense oriented like Memphis and Indiana but in the last 3-4 years they have actually become one of the more offensively efficient teams and their games are fun to watch. I rather watch the Spurs pass the ball than some of the other premier teams (OKC included) go one-on-one the entire game.

Is LeBron really unbearable to watch? Plays defense, offense, and is one of the best passers in the game today (that alone makes him fun to watch).

(05-23-2013 10:52 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:45 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  he's the second best player in the history of the sport

Not sure how you put him ahead of guys with multiple rings (Kobe, Magic, Bill Russel, etc) or even a guy like the Big O, who AVERAGED a tipple double over a season.

He's not the second best yet but if ends up with even 3 or 4 rings he potentially will be depending on how long he plays for. Even if he retired today, I think he's already a top 15 player just based on his skills and dominance of the game.

Post: #463

^^ Ha great post

Dude gets a triple double, 50% shooting. If that is getting shut down... Damn that motha fucka gotz game.

Post: #464

(05-23-2013 11:53 AM)TheSlayer Wrote:  He's not the second best yet but if ends up with even 3 or 4 rings he potentially will be depending on how long he plays for. Even if he retired today, I think he's already a top 15 player just based on his skills and dominance of the game.

Sometimes its hard to compare players from different errors because the league is different than it used to be. Lebron is very talented and you can't take that from him. However, some will argue that the league is more watered down than it used to be.

BTW, a man not on that list is the former ambassador of the NBA. He only won 1 out of 2 championships, but Julius "Doctor J" Erving was the idol on playgrounds before Jordan came on the scene. Doc was very strong also at 6ft6 and dunked on a lot of dudes in prime time, but didn't have the perimeter game of some of the players now who are more diverse in their skill set. Kind of like comparing Royce Gracie to MMA fighters of today.

Post: #465

(05-23-2013 11:53 AM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 05:42 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  Vogel is a great coach / not sure you can blame him for the games MVP (George) being too eager on defense. He had utterly shut LeBron down all 4th quarter and OT.

Let's be objective here. PG didn't shut down LeBron all 4th quarter and OT. First of all, LeBron was fully active running the point, finding teammates for open looks, and getting offensive rebounds. He just wasn't driving because Hibbert was at the rim. Yeah, that makes George look like a better defender than he actually is. No doubt he is already a great defender but he isn't "shutting down" LeBron on anything.

(05-23-2013 05:43 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  Pacers and spurs will at least make Heat earn it - unlike Thunder last year who were overwhelmed by the stage of the Finals

Yeah, Pacers and Spurs will definitely make Miami earn it. However, if Miami wins game 2 tomorrow, I predict this is over in 5 or 6. If Indiana can win it tomorrow, it will probably go 7.

(05-23-2013 10:24 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  The Heat had a bunch of shooters on the floor. In 2 seconds, you're not concerned with guarding the rim - you're concerned with getting a hand up on what's probably going to be a jump shot. Hibbert can't chase a shooter. Paul George didn't do HIS job on that play. They never should have gotten a layup with 2 seconds left. I know it's the media's job to Monday Morning QB on this, but Vogel made the best judgment considering the time on the clock. If there's more time than that, yeah, you have Hibbert out there. It just turned out badly this time.

Valid point. I think this was one of those gamble moves that if it works he is hailed as a genius, if it fails he is being crucified. Sort of like how Pop sat TD in game 6 for Tiago Splitter. It wasn't a completely dumb coaching move, just a sort of a gamble in my opinion.

(05-23-2013 10:39 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:34 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  Lebron James.

Haters Gonna Hate.

He was definitely in full-on "LePass" and "LeHide in LeCorner" mode until those last few possessions. Looked like the Boston semis and the Dallas Finals there for about 12 minutes until he finally stepped up and won it. Big props to him but this is why he'll never quite reach MJ's levels - MJ never disappeared for 12 minute hunks in huge games.

He definitely was not in "LePass" or "LeHide in LeCorner" mode in the 4th and OT. If you are just looking at scoring then okay, but he wasn't just passing the ball to the next man like he did against Dallas, he was actually making plays for the team. It's not his fault that Chris Bosh and Ray Allen both missed wide open corner 3s (the highest percentage 3 in the game) in the last two minutes of regulation. He also got an important offensive rebound. The only play that was bad was when he took a desperation mid-range jumper that was way off with about 90 seconds left in regulation. He also hit a 3 with about 4:00 left in regulation to put Miami up by 5.

He may never reach MJ's level although I disagree with that. But he did not "disappear" last night. He was kept scoreless for stretches but that's not the same thing as disappearing. He finished with 30 10 10 on 50% shooting so I am not sure this is the best game to say he will never reach MJ's level.

(05-23-2013 10:41 AM)SHANbangs Wrote:  I don't hate lebron because he's great - i just hate him because he's unbearable to watch. it's like watching an orangutan play ball. Just like I hate tim duncan because he's boring. Greatness has nothing to do with it.

Not sure what you mean by watching an orangutan play ball. And TD isn't boring either (at least not to me). The Spurs used to be a boring team because they were more defense oriented like Memphis and Indiana but in the last 3-4 years they have actually become one of the more offensively efficient teams and their games are fun to watch. I rather watch the Spurs pass the ball than some of the other premier teams (OKC included) go one-on-one the entire game.

Is LeBron really unbearable to watch? Plays defense, offense, and is one of the best passers in the game today (that alone makes him fun to watch).

(05-23-2013 10:52 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:45 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  he's the second best player in the history of the sport

Not sure how you put him ahead of guys with multiple rings (Kobe, Magic, Bill Russel, etc) or even a guy like the Big O, who AVERAGED a tipple double over a season.

He's not the second best yet but if ends up with even 3 or 4 rings he potentially will be depending on how long he plays for. Even if he retired today, I think he's already a top 15 player just based on his skills and dominance of the game.

It's just a matter of personal taste. I concede Lebron is probably pretty exciting to watch for 99% of viewers out there not Lebron haters. His dunks are certainly impressive. This is really nit-picky, but the way he moves bothers me. It's clunky and lumbering, not graceful and smooth. His direct contrast would be Kobe. It's really just a personal preference, but it might also be a reflection of the way I like to play basketball, which is on finesse.

There are other reasons for hating Lebron, but they are all on some level just rationalizations for an irrational feeling. I can't stand his need to please everybody (though he's not as bad as dwight howard), his mouth-guard, the fact that he was such a douche to Dirk in the 2011 Finals, etc etc - basically this:

http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/06/22...ba-finals/

Post: #466

(05-23-2013 11:56 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  ^^ Ha great post

Dude gets a triple double, 50% shooting. If that is getting shut down... Damn that motha fucka gotz game.

LeBron had decent numbers in most of the Boston and Dallas games - it's just that he deferred way too much with the games on the line.

He showed shades of doing that again last night - say what you want about him "running the point" but it's true - he always opted against attacking on the instances when he started his penetration into the paint - he always backed it out and passed.

On the last 2 or 3 possessions he became aggressive again and finished. You can say that he was deferring because of Hibbert, but that's shoddy because if he had attacked Hibbert throughout the 4th quarter he'd probably have fouled him out of the game and you'd have never even gone to OT.

Post: #467

(05-22-2013 10:57 AM)at350zguyy Wrote:  Have watched Adams play live twice this season, and both times he changed the games defensively, once even with after his ankle sprain. Adams also had a killer showing at the combine and is rapidly climbing. Noel isn't worth the risk with a top pick, not only because of the energy, but because they've already got a similar player there (Thompson is very limited offensively, and a bigger presence on defense than offense). Sure, Noel can block shots and rebound, but so can a guy like Dieng, who they can trade down for.

I'm not sold on Noel as a top pick, and neither are a lot of other scouts I've talked to about him even before the injury.

The Cavs also have 4 picks and can get even more by trading down. They have a lot of D-League level players right now, and I can almost guarantee a ton of this year's draft class will end up there too. Guys like Alonzo Gee, Kevin Jones, Donald Sloan, etc. will be replaced immediately by the draft picks or by free agents. The Cavs have a lot of cap space to use and if they fill out their roster with rookie contracts this year, they can make a bigger splash next year. Also wouldn't be surprised to see them do their due diligence and reach out to Dwight Howard's camp.

I agree that it's a weak draft, but someone has to pick first. There are rarely any sure things anyway. Varejao is injury prone and has one more year on his deal.

Combine numbers are essentially worthless because all the prospects are proving is that they can make a good showing in drills . Unless a guy has translated his athleticism to game situations throughout his amateur career there's no reason to get excited about it. A guy like Cody Zeller tested off the charts(historically good for guys his height or taller) but played below the rim and struggled to finish against bigs his height in college. A guy like Johnny Flynn was the best overall athlete in his class .It's always amusing to see guys rise meteorically after mediocre seasons. After all if you practice your technique over and over again you can make improvements just off the strength of putting the time in. Thats not necessarily reflective of what you'll do in the game and thats where watching tape and live games comes in.

I also agree that there is alot of value at the middle and end of the draft with rotation guys like Shabazz Muhammad, Jamaal Franklin, Allen Crabbe etc. Although none of them are the specimen that Noel is though. As for Dwight, the Cavs have next to no chance at landing him. He's a big city guy and certainly does not need to head to a fledgling franchise at this point in his career.

Post: #468

(05-23-2013 01:47 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  LeBron had decent numbers in most of the Boston and Dallas games - it's just that he deferred way too much with the games on the line.

What are you talking about? LeBron averaged 17 points a game against Dallas. The drop from his regular season average (about 26) that year to the Finals average is actually the biggest in the history of the game.

Which Boston games are you talking about? The one passive game 5 last year or in 2010 (the last two games)?

I am a LeBron fan but the numbers don't support your claim that he had decent numbers even against Dallas. When he actually deferred and choked he averaged 17 points including a mere 8 points in game 4.

(05-23-2013 01:47 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  He showed shades of doing that again last night - say what you want about him "running the point" but it's true

Last night he was nowhere passive. As I said in my previous post, he was held scoreless for stretches but that is not the same thing as being passive. There is a big difference between running the point and just passively whipping the ball around the perimeter which he did against Dallas in 2011.

(05-23-2013 01:47 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  he always opted against attacking on the instances when he started his penetration into the paint - he always backed it out and passed.

I am not sure if you have watched Miami games this year but this is exactly what their offense is. LeBron attacks the point and finds open shooters. That's the exact reason that dribble penetration with LeBron in the paint is so lethal and also the reason that Miami puts LeBron, Wade, Allen, Battier, and Bosh in "crunch time" in the 4th. All can hit the 3 well except for Wade (Bosh isn't that good but better than Wade). They space the floor, let LeBron attack the paint and then he finds the open man or he finishes. Coach Spo calls this offense "pace and space".

As I said in my previous post, it's not his fault that Bosh and Allen (mind you a corner 3 is almost like a layup for him) missed wide open corner 3s which would have probably sealed the game.

(05-23-2013 01:47 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  On the last 2 or 3 possessions he became aggressive again and finished. You can say that he was deferring because of Hibbert, but that's shoddy because if he had attacked Hibbert throughout the 4th quarter he'd probably have fouled him out of the game and you'd have never even gone to OT.

I am not sure if you have noticed it or not but the refs are allowing defenders to go straight up and not calling fouls. In the past they have given the foul and put the shooter on the line this is exactly why Hibbert was so deadly against the Knicks. This means that just barreling into Hibbert was probably not a good idea.

Yeah, last few possessions he was aggressive in going to the rim because Hibbert wasn't there but by no means he was deferring or being passive like you are saying the rest of the game.

You know why LeBron got an open layup (not just counting the Hibbert factor)? It was because Indiana knew that doubling him meant an open jump shot for all the shooters on the floor.

As West Coast said, if dude's getting 30 10 10 being passive or shutdown then yeah, he got game.

When he was passive against Dallas in 2011 his scoring dropped to 17. Trust me if he was passive, I would have definitely agreed with you. I always watch the games objectively and love to debate this stuff, but can't agree with your assessment of last night's game.

Post: #469

(05-23-2013 10:59 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:52 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:45 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  he's the second best player in the history of the sport

Not sure how you put him ahead of guys with multiple rings (Kobe, Magic, Bill Russel, etc) or even a guy like the Big O, who AVERAGED a tipple double over a season.

He's clearly on a trajectory that will surpass Kobe. If he blew out his knee tomorrow and never plays again than no. But if he finishes out his career and wins 4 more rings (likely) on this path than he's probably number 2 of all time.

Here's Bill Simmons' top 10 of all time from the book of basketball, but that was prior to Kobe's last ring and LeBron's last 4 seasons of dominance:

10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
7. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
1. Michael Jordan

My personal top 5 of all time (allowing for current careers to play out the way we expect them to) is: Jordan, LeBron, Russell, Kobe, Magic

It's hard to take someone seriously when they don't have kobe on their top ten list, even IF it was before his last ring.

Post: #470

(05-23-2013 08:01 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:59 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:52 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 10:45 AM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  he's the second best player in the history of the sport

Not sure how you put him ahead of guys with multiple rings (Kobe, Magic, Bill Russel, etc) or even a guy like the Big O, who AVERAGED a tipple double over a season.

He's clearly on a trajectory that will surpass Kobe. If he blew out his knee tomorrow and never plays again than no. But if he finishes out his career and wins 4 more rings (likely) on this path than he's probably number 2 of all time.

Here's Bill Simmons' top 10 of all time from the book of basketball, but that was prior to Kobe's last ring and LeBron's last 4 seasons of dominance:

10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
7. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
1. Michael Jordan

My personal top 5 of all time (allowing for current careers to play out the way we expect them to) is: Jordan, LeBron, Russell, Kobe, Magic

It's hard to take someone seriously when they don't have kobe on their top ten list, even IF it was before his last ring.

He actually had Kobe 15. I haven't read his book and the rankings can only be understood if you read the full book but I can see his reasoning for placing Kobe as the 15th all time before his two Finals MVPs.

You could probably talk me into Kobe being top 10 even if he never won two rings as the best player on his team. On the other hand, I can also see him being 15th all time (assuming he never wins two Finals MVPs) because he was the second best player on all of those championship teams.

Every player on the top 10 list was the best player on his championship team at least once, most multiple times.

Just so you know: He moved Kobe to 9th after his first Finals MVP. Not sure where he put Kobe after his second Finals MVP but I would assume it's probably close to the 5-6 mark so it's not far off from most lists where I have seen Kobe placed between 4-8th usually.

Post: #471

(05-23-2013 08:24 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  On the other hand, I can also see him being 15th all time (assuming he never wins two Finals MVPs) because he was the second best player on all of those championship teams.

Wait, are you saying he was the second best player during his '09-'10 championships?

Post: #472

(05-23-2013 08:36 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(05-23-2013 08:24 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  On the other hand, I can also see him being 15th all time (assuming he never wins two Finals MVPs) because he was the second best player on all of those championship teams.

Wait, are you saying he was the second best player during his '09-'10 championships?

No, lol. I said I can see him being 15th all time assuming he never wins two (meaning his rings in 09 and 10) Finals MVPs because he was the second best player on all of those championship teams (meaning the 3 rings he won with Shaq). The first Finals MVP moved him to #9 on Simmons' list and he probably moved higher after the second MVP but I couldn't find any information on that.

Post: #473

Jordan learned from watching Doc. Kobe learned from watching Doc, especially since his father Jumping Jelly Bean Joe Bryant was a bench player on a Sixers team led by Doc

Post: #474

Post: #475

^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah but Cleveland got rocked. For that matter, Iverson, Jason Kidd (twice) and others have carried weak teams to the finals and lost. Doctor J took 3 teams to the finals that lost.

Lebron is a great player, but so is Kobe.