Pete
Chubby Chaser
 
Posts: 562
Joined: May 2011
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RE: Que difícil es hablar el español...
(04-18-2013 12:33 AM)EisenBarde Wrote: Cervantes e como Shakespeare. Nadie habla como Cervantes hoy.
Eso era lo que intentaba decir.
(04-18-2013 05:14 AM)Dulceácido Wrote: (04-17-2013 10:13 PM)Pete Wrote: no esta mal escrito.. pero nadie habla espanol asi mano!
¡Perfecto! Nunca he escuchado nadie refiere a otra persona como "mano."
¿Qué querés decir? La Mano es una organización criminal, pero nadie dice "nadie habla así mano."
This is the point of the thread. People use words in a regional/contextual manner which may not be apparently clear.
So, albeit in a roundabout and condescending way, a couple of dudes have contributed something valuable to the thread. One dude, completely and incorrectly wants to throw in the use of the article que. In the improper way he is implying que should be used, it absolutely does not work and should be completely avoided. Other dude, a native speaker, who may not have much formal education in his native tongue, but speaks Spanish nonetheless, has pointed out something that gives English speakers a very difficult problem when translating from one language to the other... He brings up an interesting dilemma. Let's look at the use and omission of articles and see if we can't establish some easy ground rules, without trying to dig too deeply into fluency. Here's one of the best examples I could find on the net, which I think explains this quite well (this is taken from about.com):
Quote:¿Hablas español? El español es la lengua de la Argentina. (Do you speak Spanish? Spanish is the language of Argentina.)
If you're paying attention or are particularly analytical about words, you may have noticed something about the words el and la — words usually translated as "the" — in the above sentences. In the first sentence, español is used to translate "Spanish," but in the second sentence it's el español. And Argentina, a country name that stands alone in English, is preceded by la in the Spanish sentence.
These differences typify just a couple of the differences in how the definite article ("the" in English and usually el, la, los or las in Spanish) is used in the two languages. Using the definite article when you shouldn't or the other way around won't make you misunderstood very often, but using it correctly will make you sound like less of a foreigner.
The easy rule: Fortunately, although the rules of using the definite article can be complex, you have a head start if you speak English. That's because nearly any time you use "the" in English you can use the definite article in Spanish. Of course, there are exceptions. Here are the cases where Spanish doesn't use the definite article while English does:
Before ordinal numbers for names of rulers and similar people. Luis octavo (Luis the Eighth), Carlos quinto (Carlos the Fifth).
Some proverbs (or statements made in a proverbial fashion) omit the article. Camarón que se duerme, se lo lleva la corriente. (The shrimp that falls asleep gets carried away by the current.) Perro que ladra no muerde. (The dog that barks doesn't bite.)
When used in nonrestrictive apposition, the article is often omitted. This usage can best be explained by example. Vivo en Las Vegas, ciudad que no duerme. (I live in Las Vegas, the city that doesn't sleep.) In this case, ciudad que no duerme is in apposition to Las Vegas. The clause is said to be nonrestrictive because it doesn't define which Las Vegas; it only provides additional information. The article isn't used. But Vivo en Washington, el estado. Here, el estado is in apposition to Washington, and it defines which Washington (it "restricts" Washington), so the article is used. Conozco a Julio Iglesias, cantante famoso. (I know Julio Iglesias, the famous singer.) In this sentence, presumably both the person speaking and any listeners know who Iglesias is, so the phrase in apposition (cantante famoso) doesn't tell who he is (it doesn't "restrict"), it merely provides additional information. The definite article isn't needed. But Escogí a Bob Smith, el médico. (I chose Bob Smith, the doctor.) The listener doesn't know who Bob Smith is, and el médico serves to define him ("restrict" him). The definite article would be used.
In certain set phrases that don't follow any particular pattern. Examples: A largo plazo (in the long run), en alta mar (on the high seas).
Far more common are cases where you don't use the article in English but you need it in Spanish. Following are the most common such uses. Keep in mind that there are some regional variations and exceptions. But this list should include most of the instances you will come across.
Days of the week: Days of the week typically are preceded by either el or los, depending on whether the day is singular or plural (the names of the weekdays don't change in the plural form). Voy a la tienda el jueves. (I'm going to the store on Thursday.) Voy a la tienda los jueves. (I go to the store on Thursdays.) The article isn't used following a form of the verb ser to indicate which day of the week it is. Hoy es lunes. (Today is Monday.)
Seasons of the year: Seasons normally need the definite article, although it is optional after de, en or a form of ser. Prefiero los inviernos. (I prefer winters.) No quiero asistir a la escuela de verano. (I don't want to go to the summer school.)
With more than one noun: In English, we can often omit the "the" when using two or more nouns joined by "and" or "or," as the article is understood to apply to both. That's not so in Spanish. El hermano y la hermana están tristes. (The brother and sister are sad.) Vendemos la casa y la silla. (We're selling the house and chair.)
With generic nouns: These are nouns that refer to a concept or to a substance in general or a member of a class in general, rather than a specific one (where the article would be required in both languages). No preferiría el despotismo. (I wouldn't prefer despotism.) Esto es la realidad de la vida. (This is the reality of life.) El trigo es nutritivo. (Wheat is nutritious.) Los americanos son ricos. (Americans are rich.) Los derechistas no deben votar. (Right-wingers ought not to vote.) Escogí la cristianidad. (I chose Christianity.) Exception: The article is often omitted after the preposition de, especially when the noun following de serves to describe the first noun and doesn't refer to a specific person or thing. Los zapatos de hombres (men's shoes), but los zapatos de los hombres (the shoes of the men). Dolor de muela (toothache in general), but dolor de la muela (a toothache in a particular tooth).
With names of languages: Names of languages require the article except when they immediately follow en or a verb that is often used of languages (particularly saber, aprender, and hablar, and sometimes entender, escribir or estudiar). The article also is required after an adverb or a preposition other than en. Hablo español. (I speak Spanish.) Hablo bien el español. (I speak Spanish well.) Prefiero el inglés. (I prefer English.) Aprendemos inglés. (We are learning English.)
With clothing, body parts and other personal items: It is very common to use the definite article in Spanish in cases where a possessive adjective (such as "your") would be used in English. Examples: ¡Abre los ojos! (Open your eyes!) Perdió los zapatos. (He lost his shoes.)
With infinitives used as subjects: El entender es difícil. (Understanding is difficult.) El fumar está prohibido. (Smoking is prohibited.)
Before the names of some countries: The names of some countries, and a few cities, are preceded by the definite article. In some cases it's mandatory or nearly so (el Reino Unido, la India), while in other cases it's optional but common (el Canadá, la China). Even if a country isn't on the list, the article is used if the country is modified by an adjective. Voy a México. (I'm going to Mexico.) But, voy al México bello. (I'm going to beautiful Mexico.) The article is also commonly used before the names of mountains: el Everest, el Fuji.
Before names of streets: Streets, avenues, plazas and similar places are usually preceded by the article. La Casa Blanca está en la avenida Pennsylvania. (The White House is on Pennsylvania Avenue.)
With personal titles: The article is used before most personal titles when talking about people, but not when talking to them. El señor Smith está en casa. (Mr. Smith is at home.) But, hola, señor Smith (hello, Mr. Smith). La doctora Jones asistió a la escuela. (Dr. Jones attended the school.) But, doctora Jones, ¿como está? (Dr. Jones, how are you?) La is also often used when speaking about a famous woman using her last name only. La Spacek durmió aquí. (Spacek slept here.)
In certain set phrases: Many of these involve places. En el espacio (in space), en la televisión (on television).
I make mistakes in Spanish nearly every time I open my mouth. I am still learning and learn something new almost every day. This example is a valuable lesson to students learning the language. Some people who may or may not have any formal training in the language or "native speakers" who may not speak grammatically correct are often the first people to throw out some unqualified, unsolicited, and ultimately incorrect revisions to what you are intending to say. This is a human thing. For whatever reason, it seems to mostly happen with American-born Spanish speakers who have some form of Caribbean descent (Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Dominicans, etc.) who grew up speaking Spanish in the States because of their parents or their neighborhoods, but could not pass Spanish in High School. Take it with a grain salt, but try to filter out the unqualified (poor) advice. You want to be a sponge when you're learning but people can throw a wrench into your shit if you're not careful... Try to familiarize yourself thoroughly with the basics!
I'm sorry if I came off as condescending. I don't know if you were referring to me, but all my education was in spanish (except english courses),about 85% of my university courses were in spanish. If you think someone with a bachelor's degree is a good example of an uneducated person,well.... Unlike you, that may only know about spanish from reading books and talking spanish every once in a while, I know spanish since I was born. I just learned english when I was in high school.
That may come off as condescending, but not as condescending as what you implied.
The only american thing about me is my citizenship. I was not raised, nor have I lived in the US. So I'm not an "american-born spanish speaker".
(04-18-2013 08:56 AM)Volk Wrote: Did any of you visitors get surprised when locals said "Gonorrea" quite frequently as part of the slang in Medellin?
I was surprised. Where I live gonorrea is only used for the disease. But when I went to Medellin I quickly understood it.
Gonorrea (from what I learned) is like "bro" or "cabron" or "hijo de puta" which we spanish speakers sometimes use when we speak with friends. "cabron que hay" would be like "what's up bro"
(04-18-2013 03:49 PM)Dulceácido Wrote: (04-18-2013 03:00 PM)Mekorig Wrote: Jejejejeje, the "coger" problem is very funny, i love to see the people´s faces when some foreign trying to speak in spanish say that. Yeah, slang for each country is hard to learn, specially when you have diferent regional slangs in each country (eck, and that is not counting the accents).
And finally, yes, i would love to see a spanish-speaking thread in the forum.
PD: BTW, "Mano", or "manito", is mexican slang for "dude" or "bro".
Yeah, I kind of figured that was what he was getting at with the mano. For those interested, la mano is the hand. Here we find it used colloquially meaning "dude" or "bro." The diminutive -íto just means "small" or "little." So, maníto would be a "tiny hand." I would imagine, that the colloquial use of mano o maníto would probably stem from the shortening of the words hermano and hermaníto, meaning "brother" and "little brother." You shouldn't assume people will know that and if you say mano to someone not familiar with the word used in that form of expression, they will probably assume you mean "hand" and think you made an error as an up and coming Spanish-speaking pimp! Good to know! Noted! That goes into my bag of tricks...
The other thing Mekorig has alluded to (as well as International Playboy) is the use of the Spanish verb coger, which means "to grab or seize." In many, many Spanish speaking cultures, the word coger has evolved to, almost exclusively, mean "to fuck." So, you can see where this could be embarrassing.
This can be avoided by substituting the Spanish verbs asir or agarrar. The verb tomar can sometimes be used, but it has several meanings as well, so until you get the lingo down, stick with the other two words. Both words mean what we would say in English as "grab." Asir las maletas. "To grab the luggage." The word agarrar implies to grab something with force... Like you would a fleeing crime suspect (or some lizard you're trying to drag from the club caveman game style).
Sooo, watch what you coger becuase you may just want to asir it. You don't want to tell the doorman to go fuck your luggage.
See? That's what I tried to say (in this post). Just because you read a bit and spoke spanish a few times, doesn't mean you know the practical uses of words. No disrespect, I'm just stating my point.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2013 06:48 PM by Pete.)
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