Post: #26

(01-08-2013 03:23 AM)Dark Cyd Wrote:  1. the viral effect - with the internet word can spread real fast to the hordes. that said, good ole word of mouth is still pretty effective. one non-registered viewer can read something here, tell his buddies who go on and tell their horde buddies...

You're making some generous assumptions. You assume that everyone will read about a country, everyone will tell everyone they know, everyone will listen and agree, and they will tell everyone they know, everyone in that group will listen, and everyone who agrees will get off there ass and go there.

Quote:2. the amount of damage one person can do to locals attitudes

The local attitudes being affected by maybe a few thousand more guys at best will not change the attitudes of a 10 million population. Also, the locals would have to correctly identify you as there for girls so not even all of those few thousand guys will be correctly identified. Only until enough girls run into, recognize, and compare notes with others, will the local attitudes begin to adjust from open/neutral to hostile.

Quote:- I think it can take only one person to do significant damage. With all due respect, look at the effect of Roosh's actions in Estonia, Denmark and Brazil. Things went viral in a very bad way where locals mobilized. It's like villagers rose up with their pitchforks and ran him out of town. What's the attitude they will have to the next stranger who comes to town? Where before a foreigner with style & swag is viewed positively or even neutrally, now we're viewed with a critical eye - guilty before proven innocent.

You're proving my point. Those places were ruined because everyone already knew about those places and the cultural consensus was that those countries were good. The Balitics states have been ransacked by millions of Turks, Brits, Italians, etc who are easily identified as sex tourists by how they dress and act. Even when those places were ruined, the cultural consensus/common knowledge keeps the sex tourists going instead of updating their information and going to other places.

If anything your biggest fear of a place being fucked over is a budget flight being added.

Post: #27

I really dont understand the superiority complex people have over the stag party crowds, turks and italians. How is what they are doing different to us. We go to places to get sex, validate the women by romancing them, and write explicit sexually detailed datasheets to publicise our exploits so other guys can follow suit.

Its not a question of whether this community adversely affects a pussy paradise and peoples chances with women there for future visits. The question is how much it adversely affects it. That depends on the size of the city in question.

A big city (Moscow) would be virtually unaffected. A 2nd tier (Wroclaw) only requires 100-200 guys to change the collective girls perceptions of foreigners.

Post: #28

Yes. Every apt/hotel i have stayed, I find leftover turkish toiletry products(hand cream, fragrance, etc). They travel a lot and don't need a forum.

I think we should use forums more about setting real life meetups. Who is in Europe right now and wants to meet in the next week or two? This is a better way...

Post: #29

How do the Turks afford to travel so much and how come they are seemingly more adventurous in destination choice then most Westerners? Bishkek had loads yet few Brits or Aussies. Kiev has lots but few Germans etc. Is it due to proximity or due to cultural links ( Central Asia )? Maybe the more repressed the situation is at home the more desperate they are to get away. The ones I met in Kyrgyzstan seemed ok to me,just guys struggling to get laid like the rest of us.

Post: #30

not sure about the effects of this forum, 5000 members out of 2 billion men (give or take)?

Simplepickup have an even larger forum, 11000 members and around 5000 people viewing at anytime, yet how many guys do you actually see practicising game when you are out an about in your hometown and city? Now imagine how many of those guys even travel and game.

Post: #31

(01-08-2013 05:23 AM)Wolverine Wrote:  I really dont understand the superiority complex people have over the stag party crowds, turks and italians. How is what they are doing different to us. We go to places to get sex, validate the women by romancing them, and write explicit sexually detailed datasheets to publicise our exploits so other guys can follow suit.

Its not a question of whether this community adversely affects a pussy paradise and peoples chances with women there for future visits. The question is how much it adversely affects it. That depends on the size of the city in question.

A big city (Moscow) would be virtually unaffected. A 2nd tier (Wroclaw) only requires 100-200 guys to change the collective girls perceptions of foreigners.

The problem is that these guys spit shit game at too many women and display little sense of selectivity. Also, have you been to Italy or Turkey? They take female harassment to a whole new level. In numbers too they overwhelm places - all the Latino bars in Russia are packed with Turks. They should try and open up their society a bit more instead of ruining these spots for the rest of us.

Post: #32

(01-08-2013 06:58 AM)ao85 Wrote:  The problem is that these guys spit shit game at too many women and display little sense of selectivity. Also, have you been to Italy or Turkey? They take female harassment to a whole new level. In numbers too they overwhelm places - all the Latino bars in Russia are packed with Turks. They should try and open up their society a bit more instead of ruining these spots for the rest of us.

It doesnt matter if a guy spits good game or bad game. Plus you cant assume all rvf members have good game.

Whether its me, roosh, an italian or some random german clown hitting on a girl its all still validation. If a woman gets it from one source the less she needs it from another source.

To think that we hold some sort of higher ground than these traveling groupies is hypocrisy. Roosh himself is a turk.

The forum is a great way to bring a community of like minded individuals together but sharing information sometimes comes at a cost.

Some of these threads get over 50,000 views. The Poland thread has over 160,000. There's no doubt that it has inspired guys to go to small cities and subsequently validate the women.

Post: #33

(01-08-2013 06:12 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  How do the Turks afford to travel so much and how come they are seemingly more adventurous in destination choice then most Westerners? Bishkek had loads yet few Brits or Aussies. Kiev has lots but few Germans etc. Is it due to proximity or due to cultural links ( Central Asia )? Maybe the more repressed the situation is at home the more desperate they are to get away. The ones I met in Kyrgyzstan seemed ok to me,just guys struggling to get laid like the rest of us.

It is because they do business in these countries.They do not come just for pleasure.Turkish exports are huge in Russia.Generally what happens is that both Russians and Turks produce substandard products which they cannot sell in western markets so they sell them between themselves.The one economy completes the other.This is the reason of the big Turkish presence in FSU.Add to this the clever Turkish no visa policy for FSU citizens which has attracted millions of then to Turkish resorts and the subsequent "cultural" exchange.
If Greece were not in the euro and Shengen zone we would likely be in the same position with Turkey afloat with Russian tourists and Greek business presence all over the former FSU.
What is more infuriating is that we share cultural bonds with Russians while Turks do not.

Also Turkey has big young population and a 10 million member middle class so they can afford to travel easily.Istanbul-Odessa is just one hour by plane and manyTurks come also to Ukraine by boat.

Post: #34

(01-08-2013 06:12 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  How do the Turks afford to travel so much and how come they are seemingly more adventurous in destination choice then most Westerners?

It is closer for them isn't it?

Russia is pretty far from say, California.

So it could be the same reason you don't see Norte Baja flooded with Turks.

Post: #35

(01-08-2013 02:34 AM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  

(01-08-2013 02:14 AM)bacon Wrote:  only like 20% of americans own passports, of that most go to canada or mexico. then a smaller bit go to developed carribean nations like bahama and western europe. the places we drop info on here outside of thailand, get little love from most tourists. i dont see this trend changing. the real reason pussy paradises change is from internal issues rather than external tourists corrupting the market.

On top of that, far too many guys (at least in the USA and Canada) have been too conditioned to just "accept" what society tells them do and "accept" the women here and all the perks that western women get as the "norm". It creates a mentality that all of this travel is "too much time and money". This....along with the low amount of folks with passports will not change in a long time so our "intel exchange" will not hurt us.

Little do they know settling for monogamous sex with a western woman = more expensive really considering the engagement ring, expensive wedding, mortgage, kids, and possible divorce settlements. All that combined is 5-100K at least when you do the numbers. More expensive yet less exotic.

Post: #36

(01-08-2013 03:53 AM)cibo Wrote:  

(01-08-2013 03:23 AM)Dark Cyd Wrote:  1. the viral effect - with the internet word can spread real fast to the hordes. that said, good ole word of mouth is still pretty effective. one non-registered viewer can read something here, tell his buddies who go on and tell their horde buddies...

everyone will read about a country,
everyone will tell everyone they know,
everyone will listen and agree, and they will tell everyone they know, everyone in that group will listen,
everyone who agrees will get off there ass and go there.

I said none of this. You're the one making assumptions.

Quote:Only until enough girls run into, recognize, and compare notes with others, will the local attitudes begin to adjust from open/neutral to hostile.

Again, with the internet this happens much faster. A Facebook post/comment gets shared, a Tweet gets retweeted..look how quickly things spread & got ugly for Roosh on the Couchsurfing community.

Quote:..everyone already knew

Is this a big bang theory? Boom! all of a sudden everyone knew. In the beginning, everyone didn't know. Over time, as guys ran their mouths off, more & more people knew.

Quote: about those places and the cultural consensus was that those countries were good. The Balitics states have been ransacked by millions of Turks, Brits, Italians, etc who are easily identified as sex tourists by how they dress and act. Even when those places were ruined, the cultural consensus/common knowledge keeps the sex tourists going instead of updating their information and going to other places.

If anything your biggest fear of a place being fucked over is a budget flight being added.

We are sex tourists - at the very least there's overlap, after all poosy=sex. We just like the validation and emotional high we get from 'running successful game' and 'dressing/acting fly' - images mostly sold to impressionable young men by the media. I call it as I see it and I'm fine with saying that I like the idea of posting up at an upscale bar in my custom euro cut suit ordering Zubrowka on ice.

A cheap means to get to a place coupled with a friendly visa regime definitely contribute to how quickly a place gets overrun.

Post: #37

Huge non-issue.

Chances guy leaves the country 1/10.
Chances he works hard enough to find his ideal place 1/10000
Chances he has the money to do so.. 1/1000000000

People are lazy and content.

Even if everyone was willing and able... Every city has a different vibe so it's a non-issue still. There are 7B people in the world, you'll find a spot where the girls like you and you like them. That simple.

The bigger problem is information is not good enough, if you knew the personality of the guy who liked the spot you'd better gauge if it is worth a visit.

Post: #38

(01-08-2013 01:27 PM)Dark Cyd Wrote:  I said none of this. You're the one making assumptions.

You have a conclusion, hordes of people will ruin a place because of forum posts about a place. How you get to that number has some estimates behind them. Unless you have the actual number of heading there because of a forum post, you have made some assumptions; either stated or implied. I'm trying to make you aware there are many steps in this process and unless you assume very high odds of success at each step, your conclusion does not hold. Westcoast's post above highlights part of this.

Quote:Again, with the internet this happens much faster. A Facebook post/comment gets shared, a Tweet gets retweeted..look how quickly things spread & got ugly for Roosh on the Couchsurfing community.

We're not Roosh. He's now semi-famous, at least on the internet. He in fact mentions that every girl he meets will eventual find his blog. So thats an unreasonable comparison.

And facebook is only between friends and acquiesces. So there is still an aspect of you have to know the person vs a public feed. You have to assume each girl is probably blabbing to 100-200 people but beyond that, its unlikely.

Quote:

Quote:..everyone already knew

Is this a big bang theory? Boom! all of a sudden everyone knew. In the beginning, everyone didn't know. Over time, as guys ran their mouths off, more & more people knew.

I was referring to the fact those places with the exception of Brazil were bad before Roosh even got there which shows that this part of the internet has less affect on a place than the general population's beliefs. While I agree guys were mouthing off at some point, they probably got the idea from some friend who was probably there more for business or a real vacation and proceeded to bullshit his friends in real life and on facebook.

Quote:We are sex tourists - at the very least there's overlap, after all poosy=sex. We just like the validation and emotional high we get from 'running successful game' and 'dressing/acting fly' - images mostly sold to impressionable young men by the media. I call it as I see it and I'm fine with saying that I like the idea of posting up at an upscale bar in my custom euro cut suit ordering Zubrowka on ice.

I disagree. We might both have the same intended outcome but we are different. By your logic a murder and a solider are the same. It's also about how you do it. The do's and don'ts or rules of engagement. I will not pay for sex. I also believe in doing shit in style with a good suit and being awesome. Lifestyle game is premised on the idea it isnt just about sex, it's about many things that make you a better person besides just sex (which then get you sex). After an encounter with a guy with game, the girl should at least not think "wow all guys from X country are pathetic and I need to post this shit on facebook".

Post: #39

(01-07-2013 07:08 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  Somehow I get the feeling that alot of guys checked out Poland due to Roosh and Naughty nomad's site. Nothing crazy like the hordes of men that descend on Ukraine (kiev) but enough to change attitudes in some places.

This is pure speculation though. In fact we have zero idea how many people went to Poland because of me. And if Poland does decline, we'll have no idea what actually caused it, because many places in the world have declined in history without my influence.

Like someone else mentioned... "mental masturbation."

Post: #40

Actually the local media do the biggest damage.They tend to make broadcasts about evil sex tourists coming to get the girls cherries.They depict foreign tourists as the worst scammers and contain awful stories about how they handle the local women.

Post: #41

(01-08-2013 04:16 PM)cibo Wrote:  You have a conclusion, hordes of people will ruin a place because of forum posts about a place. How you get to that number has some estimates behind them. Unless you have the actual number of heading there because of a forum post, you have made some assumptions; either stated or implied. I'm trying to make you aware there are many steps in this process and unless you assume very high odds of success at each step, your conclusion does not hold. Westcoast's post above highlights part of this.

I know there are many steps. years and years of steps. As for odds of success, just look at Tallinn, Riga and Kiev.

Quote:We're not Roosh. He's now semi-famous, at least on the internet. He in fact mentions that every girl he meets will eventual find his blog. So thats an unreasonable comparison.

The process works the same, just not high profile. The villagers chasing the guy out of town. Bottom line is that if we roll into town on the heels of someone who f'ed up the scene it makes it that much harder; it makes it an uphill battle. Instead of open arms we're greeted with cynicism.

Quote:And facebook is only between friends and acquiesces. So there is still an aspect of you have to know the person vs a public feed. You have to assume each girl is probably blabbing to 100-200 people but beyond that, its unlikely.

False. In theory perhaps but there are many people on FB with 'friends' that are basically online strangers. Bottom line, FB facilitates getting the word thru the grapevine much faster & easier.

Quote:You have to assume each girl is probably blabbing to 100-200 people but beyond that, its unlikely.

Ever hear of the analogy of the snowball rolled down from the top of the hill? Do you even know how things go viral? Those 100-200 people turn around and tell 100-200 other people, and so on..

When we travel to another country we are in essence an ambassador of our country, culture and ethnicity. We need to conduct ourselves above the board. Problem is, for a lot of guys lying/deceit is part of the game. I've heard many stories of guys getting murdered because they downright lied to the local women. It's slash-and-burn tourism. At least with the sex tourists, it's a straight up transaction.

Bottom line is we should be leaving the place better than we found it - not only for other following members but for ourselves to return to.

Post: #42

You have to be careful in some countries because the locals tend to hyper inflate the numbers. It is one of the reasons a lot of FSU countries have gone in decline Even when their economies have collapsed wanting foreign men have decreased. I know a lot of Ukrainians were afraid of marrying foreigners after a well publicized murder. Forgets the fact that local guys murder them daily lol.
Roosh travel guides probably are such a niche market that they are not the problem. The problem is more when people go to the same city, same venue and use the same lines.
i agree the paying sex tourists actually d onto really have much negative effect on local mentality since they are going to sex providers for cash .Those chicks exist regardless of who travels there.

Post: #43

(01-08-2013 06:18 PM)Dark Cyd Wrote:  I know there are many steps. years and years of steps. As for odds of success, just look at Tallinn, Riga and Kiev.

All of those place's falls predate Roosh and the manosphere which really isnt more than 5 or 6 years old. As for time, everything tends to 100% given enough time. The question is will a place become bad before you go.

Quote:The process works the same, just not high profile. The villagers chasing the guy out of town. Bottom line is that if we roll into town on the heels of someone who f'ed up the scene it makes it that much harder; it makes it an uphill battle. Instead of open arms we're greeted with cynicism.

Chasing villagers out of town? What are you talking about? 18th century peasant famers? Unless you're going to an small town, (less than 100,000) you shouldnt be running into this sort of issue. Even the most graphic example of Roosh in Tailin was because he annouced he was going there. Afterwards he stopped annoucing where he's going to prevent local cockblocks and he hasnt had those problems since.

Yes if you came riding in after Roosh to Talin looking and acting like him. You would probably get some local resistance but in most cases this should not affect you. We are just not big enough.

Quote:And facebook is only between friends and acquiesces. So there is still an aspect of you have to know the person vs a public feed. You have to assume each girl is probably blabbing to 100-200 people but beyond that, its unlikely.

Quote:False. In theory perhaps but there are many people on FB with 'friends' that are basically online strangers. Bottom line, FB facilitates getting the word thru the grapevine much faster & easier.

People arent passive transmiters. They decide if they will resend a message. After having the events lead up to the status post, their friends need to first get the FB message. When I interviewed at FB we discussed their status matching algorthium and it shows close friends status first. Before the current website update unclose friends werent even in the status feeds or on the side feed. Then people need to notice the status, read it, decide if they agree with it, pass it on, repeat. This process is affected by how close your friends are as less close friends have low pass through rates. And given how much shit is posted on FB per a day, the probably of one status update going viral is really fucking low.

And I agree with Geek you have more to worry about a journalist or reporter making a sensalized news story since more people will read and accept that.

Edit:And again, budget planes.

Quote:Ever hear of the analogy of the snowball rolled down from the top of the hill? Do you even know how things go viral? Those 100-200 people turn around and tell 100-200 other people, and so on..

I think i have a pretty good idea how this viral thing works since i worked in one of the top internet companies, and as a consultant in others, quantifying these exact types of problems. But thanks for your advice.

Quote:Bottom line is we should be leaving the place better than we found it - not only for other following members but for ourselves to return to.

You just reinforced my statement why we are not regular sex tourists since we should, hold ourselves to a better standard of behavior.

But I do agree with the others in this thread, this discussion will not change how anyone will act. So whatever.

Post: #44

The biggest destructor of cities BY FAR, with absolutely no comparison to anything else is...

budget airlines

Rail against the influence of this forum all you want, but I hope you put 1000x the effort against Ryan Air, Easy Jet, Wizzair, etc.

Post: #45

(01-08-2013 08:27 PM)Roosh Wrote:  The biggest destructor of cities BY FAR, with absolutely no comparison to anything else is...

budget airlines

Rail against the influence of this forum all you want, but I hope you put 1000x the effort against Ryan Air, Easy Jet, Wizzair, etc.

So you are blaming Englishmen? Americans pay a steep price for anything other than DR.

Post: #46

(01-08-2013 08:31 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(01-08-2013 08:27 PM)Roosh Wrote:  The biggest destructor of cities BY FAR, with absolutely no comparison to anything else is...

budget airlines

Rail against the influence of this forum all you want, but I hope you put 1000x the effort against Ryan Air, Easy Jet, Wizzair, etc.

So you are blaming Englishmen? Americans pay a steep price for anything other than DR.

The weekend stag party has done more harm to poosy paradise than the whole internet combined.

Post: #47

As I travel, I meet more and more dudes into roosh's writings, and naughty nomad. if you're in a club and start vibing with a fellow gash hound, the chances are increasing that they've read the travel/game amalgam.

Post: #48

(01-08-2013 08:27 PM)Roosh Wrote:  The biggest destructor of cities BY FAR, with absolutely no comparison to anything else is...

budget airlines

Rail against the influence of this forum all you want, but I hope you put 1000x the effort against Ryan Air, Easy Jet, Wizzair, etc.

I agree. I always cringe when I hear people praising RyanAir, because it means, for the most part, tens of thousands of dumb tourists flooding into other countries and diluting the culture. It's not so much a problem of Americans (yet) because most in North America don't have the time or wherewithal to fly to Paris for the weekend, but the same isn't true of English or other Europeans. Why would a Londoner take a weekend jaunt to Bath when he could hop on a plane and be in the Balkans or Eastern Europe in the same amount of time? The world is indeed becoming a much smaller place. It's good for us, in the sense that it's actually feasible for someone who isn't loaded to travel the globe now, but overall, IMO, the trade off isn't worth it. If things continue apace, in a hundred years there won't be much point in traveling because all the cultural interchange will have made every place pretty much the same.

Post: #49

I plan on dating 20 somethings when I'm 70, so I take the long view about dropping hints. There are a few spots in Indonesia that I won't mention.

The well known places are going to get talked about anyway, but I'd rather let the intrepid explorers discover for themselves the hidden gems. Because it's true, once they are discovered, they don't remain gems for long.

Post: #50

(01-08-2013 09:38 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I plan on dating 20 somethings when I'm 70, so I take the long view about dropping hints. There are a few spots in Indonesia that I won't mention.

The well known places are going to get talked about anyway, but I'd rather let the intrepid explorers discover for themselves the hidden gems. Because it's true, once they are discovered, they don't remain gems for long.

It's a matter of relative size. It's one thing to talk about Jakarta or Bali, which, though off the beaten path for the typical American, are known destinations and have the infrastructure to facilitate easy travel. Bali will always have an endlessly refreshed supply of Aussies and other tourists, and Jakarta has, if memory serves, a population of something like 10,000,000. 1,000 dudes who read about these places on RVF could go there over the next year, and it would have no noticeable impact, I'm guessing. On the other hand, if you write about some fourth-tier city of 20,000 where they treat Westerners like minor deities... 25 guys could decide that sounds worth checking out, and completely ruin it.