(12-25-2012 12:44 AM)Aliblahba Wrote: We also have a history of kicking the shit out of lippy Brits and running their asses back across the pond. Don't see why Pies is any different.
Don't you think it's dimunitive to compare this to the war of independence? You are giving Piers far more credit than he deserves by picking this fight with him.
(12-24-2012 10:13 PM)sheesh Wrote: The simple question that should be asked is why the US is a slaughterhouse compared to the rest of the western world in terms of homicides, period.
Are Europeans so safe because everyone carries a weapon on them all the time ? Or could it be that it's because the population is not as armed to the teeth as Americans are ?
I found the British tv host to be too emotional and thus unprofessional but that doesn't alter my position in this debate.
The problem is that it's not a simple question at all. The American culture is what the American culture is, but the fact that other cultures exist with even looser gun right and even more guns yet don't have the same crime rates as us implies that the issue is not one of guns but of culture.
And you need to ask yourself this. If you were to take a peaceful person from any country in the world and plant them in America, legally, or, on a more eye-opening note, force them to be there (as is the case with someone born there unless they reject everything they know and relocate, as I do, but it's not easy) would it be fair to deny them the right to protect themself from a more violent society????
American society is violent and unlawful for whatever reason. That needs to change. Taking guns away from law-abiding citizens will not change it, at least not automatically. The facts show this to be true, especially considering that places in American where they let people carry guns have lower gun homicide rates than most of Europe.
Meanwhile, those of us who have no desire to hurt others are forced to live here and to raise our families here. Until your theoretical magical answer arises, should we not have the right to protect our own in the midst of chaos?
Would you want a gun in your hand if you were forced to live in such a violent place, or would you be okay with someone you didn't know telling you that was a big no-no?
(12-24-2012 11:49 PM)Vicious Wrote:
(12-24-2012 04:18 PM)durangotang Wrote: I am in favor of protecting the first amendment right of American citizens, however in this case we have a foreign born non-citizen openly advocating the subversion of our second amendment right to bear arms. If he were American, we would have to tolerate his freedom of speech. Since he is British, this counts as sedition. Our elected officials, who are sworn to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States" should not waste any time deporting him.
For someone who's allegedly such a fan of the constitution your familiarity with it is obviously selective. With the exception of the right to vote and the right to run for federal office, citizens and non-citizens are afforded the same basic rights.
If the above wasn't true then everyone's rights would be limited as a result. A citizen could have his conversations and views recorded if he were to have it with a non-citizen as this person would not be afforded the same rights. Now this is unthinkable in a country under rule of law. This is also why gun kooks anger me with their short-sightedness. Because they all have their lace thongs in a bundle over Piers Morgan they are perfectly willing to compromise their more basic rights. The only reason somebody would do that is not because they love and respect the magnificent document that is the Constitution, but because they are a gun kook. All the other talk is just half-assed attempts to justify their arbitrary special interests.
Calling people "gun kooks" does nothing more than label them. You mentioned before that you aren't necessarily against guns but your labels aren't really backing up your claim. If people who believe that Americans should always retain the right to bear arms are "gun kooks," then I'm a gun kook.
But as you've seen by my posts, I agree that deporting Morgan is bullshit based on the fact so many of us defend our rights to bear arms based on the constitution. This call to action by a group of gun advocates does not mean all "gun kooks" feel the same.
That said, I agree with others that Americans are held to a higher standard than people from other, supposedly more aware, countries. The double-standard is really getting old. If an American came to some European country and attacked what they saw as an inalienable right in that country, there would be a huge uproar as well. There would be a lot of talk about how Americans in general or so pretentious and ignorant and aggressive. We hold ourselves to a higher standard, as the whole world seems to do, and let it slide.
In this case, a group of people is retaliating and trying to silence him, just as would likely happen if an American celebrity did the same abroad.
I still don't think it's right. I think if we believe in the 1st amendment as much as we do the 2nd, we should let him speak. But you could hardly expect citizens of many other countries to have such honesty about themselves, though our own self-honesty is bound to be the deciding factor in this case that eventually protects the guy.
It's funny how we're expected to put up with what the rest of the world would view as unfathomable, and anything less is seen as hypocrisy on our part. For a long time, I've been quick to dismiss Americans and even dog on them, to view their politics on both a national level and an individual level as ignorant.
The older I get and the more I travel, I realize more and more that people from other countries, both individually and collectively, are just as ignorant as the people here. And I'm getting tired of everyone, including fellow Americans, brushing everything we do or believe aside as ignorant just because of where we're from.
From my experiences abroad, most countries need to take a closer look at themselves before pointing the finger.
Again, don't deport Morgan. Show we believe in our own paradigms by letting him say his piece, no matter how abusive. But I hope the intelligent thinkers reading this understand doing so is a challenge no matter where you're from.
(12-25-2012 02:15 AM)scotian Wrote:
(12-24-2012 11:35 PM)houston Wrote:
(12-24-2012 06:22 AM)scotian Wrote: I generally agree with the pro-gun guys on here, but some Americans take it a bit too far, such as this off duty Michigan cop who became the laughing stock of Canada after this happened last summer in Calgary:
That whole thing is stupid lol. Must of been a slow day in friendly ol' Canada if they had to do a report on that. I have a feeling Canadians talk about Americans a lot more than we do about them. I've heard a lot of them have a secret boner for us anyways Again, so many people in other countries can't seem to keep our names out of their mouth while no one here even thinks about them.
You're right about that one Houston, us Canadians do talk a lot more about you guys then you do of us, its a bit of an inferiority complex and whenever there's a news story about some controversial such as this one, it gets blown up and the story is usually about how Canadians are somehow morally superior to Americans.
It reminds me of when Rosie O'Donnell chartered a cruise ship full of 2000 homosexuals and they all sailed to my city Halifax and some were even married there because Canada is so progressive and allows gay marriage: http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx...PLATE_ID=2
I still think that cop was an idiot for for going to a foreign country where he knows that gun control is strict, then bitching to the media that as a visitor, he wasn't able to have a gun on him while walking in an urban park. I don't know what he was trying to accomplish by writing the letter, maybe he was trying to start a debate among Canadians with regards to our gun laws. Actually our gun laws were recently loosened when our long gun registry was cancelled, but you won`t see people carrying concealed pistols anytime soon north of the border, something that I think most of us are okay with.
I agree with Houston, and that's all I was trying to say with my long-winded posted as well, although I probably could have beat around the bush less with it and got straight to the point. The overriding point is that the guy is an individual, and he doesn't sound like someone like me, a gun advocate, would even like. So it really warrants little attention when considering the big scheme of things.
On the other hand, not carrying a concealed north of the border is one thing. But put someone of your intelligence and independence, Scotian, in a violent place like America, and I think you too would appreciate the right to bear arms here as well.
(12-25-2012 02:27 AM)Vicious Wrote:
(12-25-2012 12:44 AM)Aliblahba Wrote: We also have a history of kicking the shit out of lippy Brits and running their asses back across the pond. Don't see why Pies is any different.
Don't you think it's dimunitive to compare this to the war of independence? You are giving Piers far more credit than he deserves by picking this fight with him.
I agree. Our history of battles mean nothing in the big scheme of things. It isn't about that at all.
Though I don't really know the guy, I want to say and I hope that Aliblahba's statement is a response to the hostility so many Americans feel from Brits and others around the world, but it certainly doesn't help anything to throw out this type of challenge...
Let's keep it on an intellectual level; I truly believe intellect is plenty enough to assert our thoughts in this particular discussion. Anything else does nothing more than take away from it.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling
(This post was last modified: 12-25-2012 05:22 AM by Beyond Borders.)
12-25-2012 05:11 AM
Vicious
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Beyond Borders: People fine with trading free speech for guns I would definitely call kooks. Regular gun owners obviously don't care or that petition would have millions of signatures.
But sure, no need for name calling. Mea culpa.
Quote:It's funny how we're expected to put up with what the rest of the world would view as unfathomable
Not sure what you mean by this. I'm fairly certain just about all western counties offers the same level of free speech to non-citizens I know for sure that is the case for the UK, Italy, Germany and The Nordic countries. So just what countries constitutes "rest of the world" in this sense? The middle east? Africa? China? South East Asia?
Not the kind of countries I'd feel comfortable comparing myself with.
(12-25-2012 05:42 AM)Vicious Wrote: Beyond Borders: People fine with trading free speech for guns I would definitely call kooks. Regular gun owners obviously don't care or that petition would have millions of signatures.
But sure, no need for name calling. Mea culpa.
Good...I'm glad you see the fallacy in this because when you say " the problem I have with gun kooks" and then relate an issue with a faction of people who are attacking Morgan, it comes across as pinning their actions on all of us. Thanks for clearing that up.
Quote:
Quote:It's funny how we're expected to put up with what the rest of the world would view as unfathomable
Not sure what you mean by this. I'm fairly certain just about all western counties offers the same level of free speech to non-citizens I know for sure that is the case for the UK, Italy, Germany and The Nordic countries. So just what countries constitutes "rest of the world" in this sense? The middle east? Africa? China? South East Asia?
Not the kind of countries I'd feel comfortable comparing myself with.
What I mean by this is that no matter what country you deal with, free speech or not, there will be a faction, if not a majority, that would over-react if an outsider came in and challenged their laws without being a citizen. Again, I say let them say their piece, as I believe in free speech, but I think it's interesting how when something like this happens, people around the world are quick to hate on our American ways and point out how ignorant we are for our outrage.
I just get tired of all the ostracizing of Americans that goes on around the world, even among our own people, when we react just as others would (free speech or not).
For instance, I'm pretty positive that if an American (ESPECIALLY a pesky American, I would even assert) came into Germany, Britain, Canada, or Sweden and threw their weight around in this way, they could expect the same reaction from a portion of the populus that disagreed with their cause.
Perhaps addressing this in your post was unnecessary, as I don't think you committed this fallacy yourself in an explicit way, but it seemed to be the concern of the poster you were addressing. His argument was flawed, sure, but I'm just trying to point out that his reasoning is not so far off from what you'd get from people anywhere in the world and is on a certain level at least understandable.
To turn around and talk about gun kooks and why you disagree them based on such a natural reaction just comes across as a little short-sighted when you consider this.
In case I'm being confusing, I guess this is what I'm really trying to say: there are countries around the world who profess to believe in free speech. Within these same countries, there exist people who would become outraged if a non-citizen came in and threw their weight around to change a law. No matter the country, there would be people who failed to realize their attempt at censorship betrayed their commitment to free speech.
Stressing the fact that the attempt at censorship will likely fail (due to our collective commitment to free speech), the above-mentioned behavior doesn't mean that everyone that believes the law they're defending is thus an extremist or "kook." To imply such accomplishes nothing.
I may be scrambling your arguments and assertions with others in this thread, and if so, I apologize. These are just the reactions I'm feeling to all the shit I've been reading about these issues lately.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling
(This post was last modified: 12-25-2012 06:21 AM by Beyond Borders.)
12-25-2012 06:06 AM
Vicious
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What you are describing is the burden of being the champion of democracy and its associated pillars (such as free speech and rule of law). It's a thankless, heavy cross to bear.
(This post was last modified: 12-25-2012 07:50 AM by Vicious.)
12-25-2012 07:49 AM
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scotian
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(12-25-2012 05:42 AM)Vicious Wrote: Beyond Borders: People fine with trading free speech for guns I would definitely call kooks. Regular gun owners obviously don't care or that petition would have millions of signatures.
But sure, no need for name calling. Mea culpa.
Quote:It's funny how we're expected to put up with what the rest of the world would view as unfathomable
Not sure what you mean by this. I'm fairly certain just about all western counties offers the same level of free speech to non-citizens I know for sure that is the case for the UK, Italy, Germany and The Nordic countries. So just what countries constitutes "rest of the world" in this sense? The middle east? Africa? China? South East Asia?
Not the kind of countries I'd feel comfortable comparing myself with.
I don`t know about non-citizens but citizens in countries such as Canada and France don`t have the same level of freedom of speech as they do in the USA.
The big problem with allowing gun ownership is that it leads to an arms race. If you live in a population armed to the teeth such as the case in the US, it is understandable to a certain degree that you feel unsafe and feel the need to keep up and go out and buy a gun,too- to protect yourself against all the other lunatics who are running around with guns, this is obviously a vicious cycle leading to the bizarre situation that there are more firearms than people in the US nowadays according to some sources.
That's why free access to guns should never have been possible in the first place.
But since people in the US obviously cannot accept a gun free society the only solution is more guns, more killings and in turn, more guns, more killings etc.
(This post was last modified: 12-25-2012 11:17 AM by sheesh.)
(12-25-2012 11:04 AM)sheesh Wrote: The big problem with allowing gun ownership is that it leads to an arms race. If you live in a population armed to the teeth such as the case in the US, it is understandable to a certain degree that you feel unsafe and feel the need to keep up and go out and buy a gun,too- to protect yourself against all the other lunatics who are running around with guns, this is obviously a vicious cycle leading to the bizarre situation that there are more firearms than people in the US nowadays according to some sources.
That's why free access to guns should never have been possible in the first place.
But since people in the US obviously cannot accept a gun free society the only solution is more guns, more killings and in turn, more guns, more killings etc.
(12-25-2012 11:04 AM)sheesh Wrote: The big problem with allowing gun ownership is that it leads to an arms race. If you live in a population armed to the teeth such as the case in the US, it is understandable to a certain degree that you feel unsafe and feel the need to keep up and go out and buy a gun,too- to protect yourself against all the other lunatics who are running around with guns, this is obviously a vicious cycle leading to the bizarre situation that there are more firearms than people in the US nowadays according to some sources.
That's why free access to guns should never have been possible in the first place.
But since people in the US obviously cannot accept a gun free society the only solution is more guns, more killings and in turn, more guns, more killings etc.
This is just retarded. Violence has to do with socioeconomic issues and not gun laws. Just have a look at Switzerland. Most males have a full automatic rifle at home.
(12-27-2012 06:24 AM)bojangles Wrote: free speech is 'freer' (if such a term can be used) in the States than in the UK, I can say that much without any doubt.
This is why you have those Westboro Baptist church freaks doing their thing and not being arrested, they would be thrown in jail pretty quick in Canada, hell, even Anne Coulter was deemed "too offensive" by the University of Ottawa and her speech there was cancelled due to major protests: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24...10939.html
I prefer the American way when it comes to freedom of speech.
I'm ready to help Scheer put Trudeau back in the cuckshed where he belongs. HSLD
(12-26-2012 06:39 PM)bface Wrote: This is just retarded. Violence has to do with socioeconomic issues and not gun laws. Just have a look at Switzerland. Most males have a full automatic rifle at home.
You don't make any sense.
He makes plenty of sense, you're the one who is retarded. You're skewing a unique situation in Switzerland to fit your argument.
Switzerland has no army, so its people bind together as a militia. All other countries surrounding Switzerland, who all have a military, also have strict gun laws.
Although the Swiss can keep semiautomatics at home, it is illegal to carry a loaded gun outside of your home.
(12-25-2012 11:04 AM)sheesh Wrote: The big problem with allowing gun ownership is that it leads to an arms race. If you live in a population armed to the teeth such as the case in the US, it is understandable to a certain degree that you feel unsafe and feel the need to keep up and go out and buy a gun,too- to protect yourself against all the other lunatics who are running around with guns, this is obviously a vicious cycle leading to the bizarre situation that there are more firearms than people in the US nowadays according to some sources.
That's why free access to guns should never have been possible in the first place.
But since people in the US obviously cannot accept a gun free society the only solution is more guns, more killings and in turn, more guns, more killings etc.
That doesn't even make sense.
And you don't seem to need any arguments, do you ?
Reading all these posts on the subject makes me cringe. People just don't get it and the NRA is laughing it's a$$ off.
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2012 04:43 PM by sheesh.)
Europeans love to hate on America due to jealousy. They never complain about their own country cause it's already over for them. No guns, freedom of speech, outrageous taxes, cameras everywhere, having to sitpee cause their g/f's tell them to.
It's cultural. America's violent crime rate is higher than other developed countries even when you factor out guns.
And it isn't really a valid argument that we need to ban guns because each year less than 1 in a million people will be killed in a mass shooting. These events always bring out the political opportunists, America haters and emotional, hand wringing women. If you value freedom that little, we'll need to outlaw alcohol too.
12-27-2012 05:05 PM
The following 1 user Likes Lemmo's post:1 user Likes Lemmo's post RioNomad
(12-27-2012 04:58 PM)Aliblahba Wrote: Europeans love to hate on America due to jealousy. They never complain about their own country cause it's already over for them. No guns, freedom of speech, outrageous taxes, cameras everywhere, having to sitpee cause their g/f's tell them to.
"If we can't have it, neither should Americans".
I'm still laughing at the dude who complained there was no freedom because he couldn't bully some shorter guy and take his women.
Even our short guys will fuck you up.
12-27-2012 05:07 PM
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(12-27-2012 04:58 PM)Aliblahba Wrote: Europeans love to hate on America due to jealousy. They never complain about their own country cause it's already over for them. No guns, freedom of speech, outrageous taxes, cameras everywhere, having to sitpee cause their g/f's tell them to.
"If we can't have it, neither should Americans".
I'm still laughing at the dude who complained there was no freedom because he couldn't bully some shorter guy and take his women.
Even our short guys will fuck you up.
Especially the transplanted short Greek midgets in Florida!
(12-27-2012 04:58 PM)Aliblahba Wrote: Europeans love to hate on America due to jealousy. They never complain about their own country cause it's already over for them. No guns, freedom of speech, outrageous taxes, cameras everywhere, having to sitpee cause their g/f's tell them to.
"If we can't have it, neither should Americans".
Exactly. And it isn't just because we elected Dubya twice. I lived over there in the 90s and they already hated us then. And they hate us now. They spent centuries going around the world and taking what they wanted and suddenly they want everyone to be passive now that they are too weak to do anything. In fairness, the average man on the street isn't nearly as douchie as Morgan and the other talking heads.
12-27-2012 05:13 PM
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(12-25-2012 12:44 AM)Aliblahba Wrote: We also have a history of kicking the shit out of lippy Brits and running their asses back across the pond. Don't see why Pies is any different.
Don't you think it's dimunitive to compare this to the war of independence? You are giving Piers far more credit than he deserves by picking this fight with him.
No. We had to come over to Europe TWICE in one century to kick all ya'll's asses cause you "civilized" people don't know how to play nice with each other.
(12-27-2012 04:41 PM)sheesh Wrote: Reading all these posts on the subject makes me cringe. People just don't get it and the NRA is laughing it's a$$ off.
Yes, all the posts on the subject make me cringe too. It makes me cringe that gun control advocates ignore the facts and would rather ban guns based on their emotions.
Because you can't argue with emotions...
(12-27-2012 05:09 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:
(12-27-2012 05:05 PM)Lemmo Wrote: It's cultural. America's violent crime rate is higher than other developed countries even when you factor out guns.
Got a link?
Here's an interesting one for you.
It's an article from the American Civil Rights Union website about a Harvard study analyzing the effect gun control has on murder and suicide rates (all emphases are mine). I'm sure people will ignore as they see fit.
"The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.
The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:
Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland's murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns. As the study's authors write in the report:
If the mantra "more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death" were true, broad cross-national comparisons should show that nations with higher gun ownership per capita consistently have more death. Nations with higher gun ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates. (p. 661)
Finally, and as if to prove the bumper sticker correct - that "gun don't kill people, people do" - the study also shows that Russia's murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns.
The important thing to keep in mind is not the rate of deaths by gun - a statistic that anti-gun advocates are quick to recite - but the overall murder rate, regardless of means. The criminologists explain:
[P]er capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent. (p. 663 - emphases in original)
It is important to note here that Profs. Kates and Mauser are not pro-gun zealots. In fact, they go out of their way to stress that their study neither proves that gun control causes higher murder rates nor that increased gun ownership necessarily leads to lower murder rates. (Though, in my view, Prof. John Lott's More Guns, Less Crime does indeed prove the latter.) But what is clear, and what they do say, is that gun control is ineffectual at preventing murder, and apparently counterproductive."
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2012 05:40 PM by Beyond Borders.)
Furthermore, one would expect American violent crime rates to be more sim ilar to European rates in crime where guns are rarely used, such as rape, than in crimes where guns are often used, such as homicide. But the reverse is true: American non-gun violent crime rates exceed those of European countries.
9 Wright, et al ., Under the Gun: Weapons, Crime and Violence in America (N.Y.: Aldine, 1983).
10 Kopel, "The Samurai, The Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America adopt the gun controls of other democracies?' (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1992), 431-32.
Not proof of anything in of themselves but interesting nonetheless:
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2012 05:56 PM by Beyond Borders.)
(12-27-2012 04:01 PM)maccc Wrote: He makes plenty of sense, you're the one who is retarded. You're skewing a unique situation in Switzerland to fit your argument.
Switzerland has no army, so its people bind together as a militia. All other countries surrounding Switzerland, who all have a military, also have strict gun laws.
Although the Swiss can keep semiautomatics at home, it is illegal to carry a loaded gun outside of your home.
What? Not sure if serious...
I spent over a year in the swiss army, not sure where you get your facts from.
12-27-2012 06:32 PM
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