Post: #1

Moving a good discussion out of the wrong thread

Quote:N°6 Wrote:
There’s a few elephants in the room with regards to fornication. The churches haven’t dealt with it and I doubt that a tradRVF can either.

I was in church during my teens and early 20s and in our terms, I was a volcel White Knight. I would have liked a traditional courting relationship with some of the church girls and those I met on youth events.

Unfortunately they were unattainable until their late 20s because of education, career, travel and even missionary work in exotic countries. Christian fathers bring up their daughters to go to university not to be wives.

Dalrock discusses this. Women don’t want to waste a minute more of their youth on their husbands than they need to.

The NT teaches that marriage is the cure for burning with passion which is why most people used to get married young. Now Christian men could be expected to wait until their 30s. Fornication will happen because of this - especially when the Bible teaches that fornication can be committed in the mind.

For older men here, anti fornication will mean MGTOW because the number of marriageable women over 30 is minute and the Bible deems relationships with divorcées as adultery.

My brother began a relationship with a girl at church. The older youth pastor put a stop to it. My brother was 17/ 18 FFS and from a good family. He went to church four times per week and would have been the ideal Christian husband and son in law in ages past. Thus began a period of inceldom and thirst and video games which ended when he married an atheist 5 who didn’t want their children christened. I blame the youth pastor for this for killing a budding relationship between Christians from forming. Previous generations would have encouraged them to pair bond.

Now I hear pastors shame men over 30 for not stepping up to marry women who return to church in their 30s from the cock carousel and a brood of bastards.

Like I wrote the church hasn’t responded to the ramifications from women delaying marriage until late.

^ I agree, there are a number of Churches like this that don't seem to understand the paradox they are creating where they want no pre-marital sex, but also want everyone to wait until 30 to get married.

Its a good topic for another thread.

and

Quote: Post: #351RE: NEW RULES: Casual sex and hooking up can no longer be discussed on the forum
I think some posters have misunderstood the value that many men received from the forum. Personally, the knowledge from the forum helps me gain lots of self-confidence with women. This actually helped me sustain relationships, not vice versa.

I think men who have lived through it know that talking about let's say "spinning plates" or "banging 30 girls in 60 days in the Philippines" in the end provided no value in their lives and discussion on those matters will not be missed.

A total ban on discussions on premarital sex? I'm not sure that's a good thing. There is a ton of life lessons in learning how to seduce women. In our current society, marriage is NOT even possible for some men without having premarital sex. Women will simply reject a man who does not try to have sex with her after a certain amount of time.

I have religious friends who moved to big cities and decided to lead Christian lives. They only ended up angry and frustrated. In the end, I fear Christianity will eventually lead young men right back to the Blue Pill or the Red Pill.

There is more in the "new rules" thread /thread-73256.html but it is essentially

1. Is pre-marital sex helpful, harmful or neutral for men and women when ultimately pursuing a long term relationship or marriage

2. How does no premarital sex interact with some people waiting longer and longer (early 30s women) to even pursue marriage.

Post: #2

In Islamic and Hindu societies, they marry their children off young and there's far less divorce. They grow to love one another, and yes, it's about codependency and mutual need - not 'romance' as is sold in Disney movies (and European literature generally). I think it's probably a better system than the West, but maybe I was just born in the wrong era.

1. Pre-martial sex is basically necessary for modern relationships in the western world. I'd say it's helpful, given the circumstances.

2. I'm not sure about the second question.

Post: #3

I would say it is harmful, no premarital sex is simply not compatible with modern society.

Are you supposed to be a virgin until you are 30 if you are a young guy who is simply not ready to get married? That is assuming you manage to find a girl who is actually going to wait for marriage to have sex (Almost impossible).

Sex is a big part of intimacy, it is an essential way to express your love and connection with your partner.

In a best case scenario for no premarital sex, you luck out and marry a good girl and it works out. But I would argue it wasn't because you waited until marriage, it was simply a coin toss and you got lucky. In that scenario it would have still worked out if you had sex DURING the relationship.

There is a huge middle ground between sticking it to everything that has a pulse and no premarital sex.

Post: #4

(05-24-2019 06:47 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  There is more in the "new rules" thread /thread-73256.html but it is essentially
1. Is pre-marital sex helpful, harmful or neutral for men and women when ultimately pursuing a long term relationship or marriage
2. How does no premarital sex interact with some people waiting longer and longer (early 30s women) to even pursue marriage.

I think the best time to marry would be ages 24-28. Prior to that period people do not have fully developed brains... and I can speak from experience that marrying too young can be disastrous.

Regarding whether pre-marital sex is helpful for men or not. I'm not sure. Most women... even Christian women want good sex. If you can't deliver then they will not be happy in the long run. Even church girls talk to each other about this and often compare notes. If you can do this day 1, that's great. I suspect that most men who are virgins range from not very good to terrible... which is why many women avoid them.

Post: #5

(05-24-2019 07:16 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  

(05-24-2019 06:47 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  There is more in the "new rules" thread /thread-73256.html but it is essentially
1. Is pre-marital sex helpful, harmful or neutral for men and women when ultimately pursuing a long term relationship or marriage
2. How does no premarital sex interact with some people waiting longer and longer (early 30s women) to even pursue marriage.

I think the best time to marry would be ages 24-28. Prior to that period people do not have fully developed brains... and I can speak from experience that marrying too young can be disastrous.

Regarding whether pre-marital sex is helpful for men or not. I'm not sure. Most women... even Christian women want good sex. If you can't deliver then they will not be happy in the long run. Even church girls talk to each other about this and often compare notes. If you can do this day 1, that's great. I suspect that most men who are virgins range from not very good to terrible... which is why many women avoid them.

Also I bet a good part of religious young couples "waiting" until marriage still do sexual stuff anyways except for vaginal sex, so what is even the point then.
The biological need is simply too hard to ignore, having a healthy young person go without a basic human need for years is simply not feasible.

Post: #6

(05-24-2019 07:02 AM)Teedub Wrote:  In Islamic and Hindu societies, they marry their children off young and there's far less divorce. They grow to love one another, and yes, it's about codependency and mutual need - not 'romance' as is sold in Disney movies (and European literature generally). I think it's probably a better system than the West, but maybe I was just born in the wrong era.

The older I get the more I think so too... But doubt you could implement it now in the current age we live in

(05-24-2019 06:47 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  There is more in the "new rules" thread /thread-73256.html but it is essentially

1. Is pre-marital sex helpful, harmful or neutral for men and women when ultimately pursuing a long term relationship or marriage

2. How does no premarital sex interact with some people waiting longer and longer (early 30s women) to even pursue marriage.

I don't think pre-marital sex is a true problem it's the way we have started to see sex after the sexual revolution. Sex has become too common, too engrained in society, too "normal". I'm not saying sex is abnormal it's just sex has, or better had, great consequences... Without contraceptives it, most of the time, creates new life.

Sex is something sacred it's a creative force not to fuck around with (see what I did there)... Now we're constantly stimulated by direct or indirect hints to sex. It has lost it's "magic" somewhat.

So now, that I'm older, I somewhat understand why pre-marital sex used to be frowned at...

Maybe I'm rambling but hopefully you catch what I'm trying to say here...

Post: #7

It is unnatural not to have sex. Having sex keeps people sane. See Eliot Rodger as an example of what happens without sex.

Marriage is a different ball of wax than sex.

Post: #8

(05-24-2019 07:02 AM)Teedub Wrote:  In Islamic and Hindu societies, they marry their children off young and there's far less divorce. They grow to love one another, and yes, it's about codependency and mutual need - not 'romance' as is sold in Disney movies (and European literature generally). I think it's probably a better system than the West, but maybe I was just born in the wrong era.

1. Pre-martial sex is basically necessary for modern relationships in the western world. I'd say it's helpful, given the circumstances.

2. I'm not sure about the second question.

I agree, if you are living as a secular person you will get nowhere in relationships or with women without premarital sex. This is I think why Christian and other no premarital sex practitioners are looked upon as 'losers' by the secular world. Christian guys I know that were brought up fully in the church get destroyed by dating secular women. They get destroyed because they are dating someone that operates by entirely different rules.

As to the second part, you were close to the mark with your first statement about marrying people off young. In some of the what I'll call "cucked" denominations they adhere to both the 'no premarital sex' doctrine and the 'you go girl' secularism that women shouldn't marry until after they have gone to college, got a career etc....which puts them at age 30.

Its an incompatible idea. The idea that young people when they are at their most hormonal will just 'wait it out' is just asking for problem. By age 30, women are going to have fertility issues, other interests, definitely have succumbed to temptation a few times etc. Men on the other hand will have rationalized ways to skirt the rules or have developed messed up patterns of interactions with women by that point.

Last, I think being married young when you both have little brains, or money creates a codependency that is necessary for a marriage to grow...but only for those that are religious. If you are secular, where divorce is permissible, porn is fine, drugs and alcohol are fine and your role-models are hollywood and music DO not get married young. You'll feel like you are missing out.

Post: #9

(05-24-2019 08:11 AM)SW15 Wrote:  It is unnatural not to have sex. Having sex keeps people sane. See Eliot Rodger as an example of what happens without sex.

Marriage is a different ball of wax than sex.

I agree, this is why people should marry young if they are subject to abstaining from premarital sex. Asking people to sit on the sidelines and not misbehave during their most fertile period in life will make them crazy.

Post: #10

delete

Post: #11

(05-24-2019 08:13 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

(05-24-2019 07:02 AM)Teedub Wrote:  In Islamic and Hindu societies, they marry their children off young and there's far less divorce. They grow to love one another, and yes, it's about codependency and mutual need - not 'romance' as is sold in Disney movies (and European literature generally). I think it's probably a better system than the West, but maybe I was just born in the wrong era.

1. Pre-martial sex is basically necessary for modern relationships in the western world. I'd say it's helpful, given the circumstances.

2. I'm not sure about the second question.

I agree, if you are living as a secular person you will get nowhere in relationships or with women without premarital sex. This is I think why Christian and other no premarital sex practitioners are looked upon as 'losers' by the secular world. Christian guys I know that were brought up fully in the church get destroyed by dating secular women. They get destroyed because they are dating someone that operates by entirely different rules.

As to the second part, you were close to the mark with your first statement about marrying people off young. In some of the what I'll call "cucked" denominations they adhere to both the 'no premarital sex' doctrine and the 'you go girl' secularism that women shouldn't marry until after they have gone to college, got a career etc....which puts them at age 30.

Its an incompatible idea. The idea that young people when they are at their most hormonal will just 'wait it out' is just asking for problem. By age 30, women are going to have fertility issues, other interests, definitely have succumbed to temptation a few times etc. Men on the other hand will have rationalized ways to skirt the rules or have developed messed up patterns of interactions with women by that point.

Last, I think being married young when you both have little brains, or money creates a codependency that is necessary for a marriage to grow...but only for those that are religious. If you are secular, where divorce is permissible, porn is fine, drugs and alcohol are fine and your role-models are hollywood and music DO not get married young. You'll feel like you are missing out.

That's precisely the problem. Modern equality ensures that women are exhorted to be men even though they are different.

Women can and should marry far younger than that.

Although men can fulfill that precise script of being 25-30(or even younger if talented) having established a good income and be a good Husband much more easily by comparison without the equivalent fertility problems.

It doesn't need to be necessary for men and women to be the same age going into a marriage.

Post: #12

As my old pastor once said, “there is no such thing as a one-night stand.”

Believe me when I say that if/when you give up the game lifestyle and do your best to follow Christ, every single memory you’ve created can and will be used against you by the Enemy’s attempts to keep you enslaved to lust.

Memory, imagination, and emotion are especially potent tools he uses and gathering a multitude of casual experiences just gives him a lot of ammo to work with.

In retrospect I’d say the one and only real benefit of living that life is that you learn to discern who a woman really is, which most men will never understand. Many go to their graves without ever knowing who their own wives are.

Post: #13

(05-24-2019 08:48 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  As my old pastor once said, “there is no such thing as a one-night stand.”

Believe me when I say that if/when you give up the game lifestyle and do your best to follow Christ, every single memory you’ve created can and will be used against you by the Enemy’s attempts to keep you enslaved to lust.

Memory, imagination, and emotion are especially potent tools he uses and gathering a multitude of casual experiences just gives him a lot of ammo to work with.

In retrospect I’d say the one and only real benefit of living that life is that you learn to discern who a woman really is, which most men will never understand. Many go to their graves without ever knowing who their own wives are.

I find that a lot of the supporters of no premarital sex always use the complete opposite to compare it to.

But what about having sex only in multi year long relationships?
If you are young there can be a multitude of reasons why you are unable to get married, maybe you want to figure out your place in the world and for your brain to finish developing before bringing children into the world.

Who is it really hurting when you have sex in a loving, committed relationship?
The sexual urges are still there, it is our biological imperative to reproduce. It is better to deal with them in a healthy way as an expression of love with your girlfriend compared to watching pornography or other behaviour.

If you do not differentiate between players who go out to clubs and have sex with random girls every week and the guy in a loving relationship who has sex with his girlfriend he might plan to marry in the future then these people might start to wonder if they should even listen to you in the first place.

Post: #14

(05-24-2019 08:52 PM)Shifty Wrote:  

(05-24-2019 08:48 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  As my old pastor once said, “there is no such thing as a one-night stand.”

Believe me when I say that if/when you give up the game lifestyle and do your best to follow Christ, every single memory you’ve created can and will be used against you by the Enemy’s attempts to keep you enslaved to lust.

Memory, imagination, and emotion are especially potent tools he uses and gathering a multitude of casual experiences just gives him a lot of ammo to work with.

In retrospect I’d say the one and only real benefit of living that life is that you learn to discern who a woman really is, which most men will never understand. Many go to their graves without ever knowing who their own wives are.

I find that a lot of the supporters of no premarital sex always use the complete opposite to compare it to.

But what about having sex only in multi year long relationships?
If you are young there can be a multitude of reasons why you are unable to get married, maybe you want to figure out your place in the world and for your brain to finish developing before bringing children into the world.

Who is it really hurting when you have sex in a loving, committed relationship?
The sexual urges are still there, it is our biological imperative to reproduce. It is better to deal with them in a healthy way as an expression of love with your girlfriend compared to watching pornography or other behaviour.

If you do not differentiate between players who go out to clubs and have sex with random girls every week and the guy in a loving relationship who has sex with his girlfriend he might plan to marry in the future then these people might start to wonder if they should even listen to you in the first place.

You present an interesting point. What you describe is very common of course. However, I think there is a risk with taking a 'bang on date #1 and take the rest of the relationship to get to know the girl' Those risks are:

1. You or her gets blinded to the sex. This is the classic 'you don't put your benis in crazy'. Many men, and many men on this forum have overlooked obvious lunatic women because they were great in bed. If you hadn't slept with a crazy girl yet, there is no way you would tolerate her behavior. The same goes for women...how long would a woman put up with bad boy chad that only texts her at 2am with 'come over' if she hasn't already been turned into a flesh pretzel by him?
2. It increases cheating and hurt in relationship failure. If you have the standard, and the woman has the standard of 'bang on date 1, then get to know the person'...what happens if your relationship starts to struggle or you find someone else you are interested in? If you are a woman, well you have too many drinks with this new person, you end up sleeping with them and now you are sleeping with two guys at once. That injury is much more severe than if she had not been intimate with either of them. That's how people get murdered and cucked.
3. Cuckold avoidance. This is a true story. A buddy of mine who was a no premarital sex guy was engaged to a secular girl. As the wedding was closing in she REALLY started putting the pressure on him to bang. He declined and she subsequently left one day while he was at work. He really felt bad about it and thought...would she have left if I just banged her? He literally has never seen/talked to her again. However, one of his buddies sees her at her workplace a few months later and she is really pregnant and the story unravels. This woman was cheating on her fiancee. She got pregnant and was trying to bang the fiancee so that she could claim the kid was his/make an excuse for being pregnant at the wedding. He didn't give in and so she had no option but to vanish. This man's standards saved him from a terrible deception.
   

Those are some risks about having early sex in even a secular long term relationship. However, the paradox still remains that it is very unlikely that you will ever end up in any kind of relationship with a secular girl without premarital sex in these modern times. Its a devil's bargain.

Post: #15

(05-25-2019 06:01 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  [*] Cuckold avoidance. This is a true story. A buddy of mine who was a no premarital sex guy was engaged to a secular girl. As the wedding was closing in she REALLY started putting the pressure on him to bang. He declined and she subsequently left one day while he was at work. He really felt bad about it and thought...would she have left if I just banged her? He literally has never seen/talked to her again. However, one of his buddies sees her at her workplace a few months later and she is really pregnant and the story unravels. This woman was cheating on her fiancee. She got pregnant and was trying to bang the fiancee so that she could claim the kid was his/make an excuse for being pregnant at the wedding. He didn't give in and so she had no option but to vanish. This man's standards saved him from a terrible deception.
[/list]

Those are some risks about having early sex in even a secular long term relationship. However, the paradox still remains that it is very unlikely that you will ever end up in any kind of relationship with a secular girl without premarital sex in these modern times. Its a devil's bargain.

Quick counter-point:

Once upon a time, I'd been texting with a woman who eventually came to visit because this is her hometown and she ended up crashing at my place. She ended up banging my brains out for about two weeks. She wanted to try anything and everything you might characterize as degenerate, but also mentioned Jesus a lot. Whatever, I grew up in the mid-South. I know the score with church girls.

About halfway into it, she mentions her "divorce" and that she's having an argument with her "ex-husband" who isn't yet actually her "ex-husband". Ah, now the rest of the picture is coming into focus. She'd been deliberately misleading about her home situation because she wanted new dick and is now microdosing the truth so she can role-play innocence, as women often do.



I give her the boot and she finds a job and an apartment to start over, goes on a tour of her high school crushes.

Then some more time passes, she reunites with her husband under pressure from her family, and word gets back to her circle of friends that she's pregnant. Her husband now thinks he has children, I guess.

I also take issue with point #1. It's strange to claim that men only tolerate crazy if they're getting laid. I'd argue that the opposite is true: mediocre women successfully weaponize the promise of sex to keep men on the hook and squeeze them for more as a matter of course. The idea that, in a dutiful, chaste Christian world, a man would have more ammunition to walk away from craziness doesn't hold at all, because he won't get laid anywhere else.

Adherence to abstinence is not a substitute for the acceptance of abundance. Game saves lives, etc. Standards are important, and I respect your points. I'm just saying that a "good Christian marriage" does not short-circuit biology and may not be the insurance policy followers wish it to be. As I've said elsewhere, it's hard to shake the sense that this "tradcon" thing is entirely too optimistic about believing that they can change human nature so that they won't have to address the dirty, dark parts.

Post: #16

Where would a young man at around the age of 20 or even younger find a good woman to marry these days?

Post: #17

The answer is obviously get married young(which would solve the problem of sterile premarital sex), but this brings up my question above. Most women I've met from good families want their daughter to be off in university to eventually get a job.

Post: #18

Pros:

- It feels good.
- It's fun.
- It feels really good.
- It probably teaches you some valuable lessons for long term relationships or marriage.
- Being around women for seduction and relationships of any lengths most definitely teaches you some valuable lessons.
- It's fun in slightly and sometimes very different ways with each woman.
- You get a chance to play in... with a variety of different body types (extremes at either end best avoided) and, obviously most importantly, breast sizes.
- Not everyone can convince a slim, young, sexy 8 or 9 to marry them, but you can probably find some way to bang at least a few.
- It really does feel quite good. Should I really have had to marry at 18 to avoid a relationship with my right hand through who knows how many early adult years?

Cons:
- You could potentially knock up someone you don't particularly want to be the mother of your kids. But it's not really that difficult to avoid for most people.
- You might catch cooties. Or the AIDS!

Neutral:
- You might end up at 40, unmarried and with no children. You may or may not be jaded and emotionally stunted by having slept with dozens of women. You may be happy or depressed. You may or may not have any idea whether your life would necessarily have ended up in blissful till-death-do-us-part-and-we-have-2.5-children if you had married the first woman you had sex with (my first was a slightly older, depressed, part-time alcoholic - so I'm skeptical).

Post: #19

I would like to get married and have sex within a marriage but i really don't know how.
Girls within the church act like girls who are in the clubs. seems they all want sex before relationship. thats if they even want a relationship at all.

Post: #20

(05-25-2019 10:05 PM)IAMSEXY Wrote:  I would like to get married and have sex within a marriage but i really don't know how.
Girls within the church act like girls who are in the clubs. seems they all want sex before relationship. thats if they even want a relationship at all.

That's kind of the BS about it. Most "religious" girls are only religious until some Chad gets in their pants and gets them to shout to their higher power. It's just another club for the ladies to act like they're holding the prize and put sex on a high pedestal they control past what they already do. Not only do you have to pay the toll, you have to pay the church too.

I'm not going to say there aren't a few ladies out there that really tow the hard line because there are. They sit front row in the church and act militant about it. But the rest? Ordinary game man.

Post: #21

The term ‘pre-marital’ sex is an anachronism for most men here.

The term was mostly used in relation to keeping horny, reckless and inexperienced young men patient for a few years until they married. It was used to keep young women chaste so they could attract the best husband material possible.

Young men and young women could see their slightly older brothers and sisters and cousins getting married young so waiting for marriage has its short term rewards.

Now as women are delaying marriage to 29.99 (and rising), men are first getting married in their 30s. If they avoided fornication until marriage, these men will have gone nearly 20 years with an unfulfilled sexual urge and will likely have low self-esteem. Not only that, they will be entering marriage with modern women with a needy frame.

I’m concerned with these men’s mental health during the long years of volcel and in all likelihood the divorced years of middle age when the suicide risk is highest.

Then there are unmarried men over 35, who are meeting divorced women. Is this post marital sex or is this adultery as traditionally taught by Christianity but is conveniently ignored in feminised Protestant sects, which have blessed serial monogamy?

I can see a lot of men going MGTOW. There isn’t much choice left. Save up your money, prepare for retirement and live on a boat. During sexual emergencies, visit a harlot do the deed then continue a carefree life.

Then there is the deviancy risk associated with enforced or involuntary inceldom. The church has a porn problem, Saudi Arabia’s strict control on heterosexual interaction is supported by secret homosexuality, Muslim women’s virginities in the UK is protected by the mass pimping of white girls - I could go on.

Also conservative women in the US are twice as likely to divorce a husband who looks at porn than another group. They also expect husbands to earn access to the marital bed. Porn is the ace card for a conservative wife who has already checked out of the marriage.

Post: #22

(05-26-2019 02:16 AM)N°6 Wrote:  I can see a lot of men going MGTOW. There isn’t much choice left. Save up your money, prepare for retirement and live on a boat. During sexual emergencies, visit a harlot do the deed then continue a carefree life.

Count me in!

But I'll have my (/a) bird(s) with me.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #23

...Just wait for marriage...

Someone else will fulfill those roles prior to your marriage and possibly during. This shouldn't be important just as the religious way of withholding sex. What matters is your union & closeness to god.

If god truly comes 1st you shouldnt give 2 shits where she is having sex what matters is your religious union.

There will always be non-religious men who can handle recreational sex so no need to worry

I'll lurk june 1st as I'm curious how things will change. The world won't stop turning. We can't deny truths uncovered but I will say many religious people are potentially capable of creating their fantasy bubble with the right partner....

It is worth a shot for those who have an affinity, thankfully I'm not religious at all and have unpopular viewpoints that are in alignment with quantum physics.

Post: #24

@Dr.Howard and any man who's curious-

Never, ever, ever try to have a "religious" relationship with a secular woman. If waiting until marriage is part of your value system and not hers, she is going to be getting what she wants elsewhere (and lying to you about it).

Post: #25

(05-25-2019 03:34 PM)MikeS Wrote:  Neutral:
- You might end up at 40, unmarried and with no children. You may or may not be jaded and emotionally stunted by having slept with dozens of women. You may be happy or depressed. You may or may not have any idea whether your life would necessarily have ended up in blissful till-death-do-us-part-and-we-have-2.5-children if you had married the first woman you had sex with (my first was a slightly older, depressed, part-time alcoholic - so I'm skeptical).

I'm in my mid-30s, unmarried, and childless. The rest of the description applies to me. I've vacillated between happiness and unhappiness over the whole thing.