Post: #1001

(06-13-2018 09:39 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I'm with Arado on this, the end game here is murky. I'm sure that those of us who live and interact with East asians know that all the surface level shit is ALWAYS misdirection as they plot their other moves.

I'm sure that's true. Although I'm not sure if you're aware, but that's the exact same feeling many other nations have in dealing with Anglo-Saxons. How many times has the US broken agreements and promises and went ahead with its own agenda? Too many to count.

Kim knows exactly what he's dealing with.

Post: #1002

(06-14-2018 05:52 AM)Fortis Wrote:  Look, I wanna believe it's a cut and dry case of "Trump's just smarter than everyone and we just needed a no-nonsense approach" but I've rarely seen anything go smoothly when it comes down to Asian diplomacy efforts. I hope I'm proved wrong.

My personal viewpoint is that they are just following the Chinese playbook. When Mao was gone, Deng came in and reformed the country into a capitalistic one, but even he had to be super careful and not move too fast otherwise it would upset the old Mao buddies. Deng's Reforms started in the 80s and took a long time to finish, but he had that delay built in, because he did not want to West to come in and exploit them immediately and he knew it would take time to do it right without angering the party.

The Chinese call North Koreans their little brother as a joke for a reason. They copy almost everything the Chinese do. From fashion down to even the progress timelines.

While the world is focused on Trump and Kim, what did the Chinese promise to let them have/or build industry wise? What deals are they going to make with China? Will they continue to run their banks through China so that foreign powers cannot know their real wealth, assets and holdings? When will they open their own banks and block transparency like China does?

Is unification with SK just a gesture? Or do they really want an eventual merger? SK just dumped their first female president for corruption. Does a redpilled society like NK or China want that kind of bullshit democracy system? I don't think they do. I think they might hold on to Autocracy for at least a long while and let the country grow super strong GDP wise, Chinese Style. Kim recently dumped a few generals before the summit. He is taking pages from China no doubt.

I could be wrong and they seek unification immediately, but that does not seem very likely to me.

Post: #1003

(06-14-2018 08:24 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

(06-13-2018 09:39 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I'm with Arado on this, the end game here is murky. I'm sure that those of us who live and interact with East asians know that all the surface level shit is ALWAYS misdirection as they plot their other moves.

I'm sure that's true. Although I'm not sure if you're aware, but that's the exact same feeling many other nations have in dealing with Anglo-Saxons. How many times has the US broken agreements and promises and went ahead with its own agenda? Too many to count.

Kim knows exactly what he's dealing with.

The TigerMandigo Algorithm:

"B-b-b-b-b-but (X) does (Y) too!"

Yes, we get it. Thanks, buddy.

Post: #1004

Well, it's an important point. How do you accuse someone of being untrustworthy if you aren't so yourself?

Post: #1005

why are you set on turning this into a discussion that no one is interested in having? We all know EVERYONE ON EARTH IS A HYPOCRITE, but such truisms do nothing to further our discussion of KJU and NK's potential moves.

Post: #1006

you are always knocking east Asians. We get it, you haven't had a good experience there and that shapes your cynical view of how they behave. As soon as someone mildly defends them you turn rabid, like Zelcorpion with his anti-Islam garbage. So what is it, were you burned by some Chinese poonany ?

Post: #1007

(06-14-2018 12:17 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  you are always knocking east Asians. We get it, you haven't had a good experience there and that shapes your cynical view of how they behave. As soon as someone mildly defends them you turn rabid, like Zelcorpion with his anti-Islam garbage. So what is it, were you burned by some Chinese poonany ?

Who is "we"?
Speak for yourself.

Anyone who knows Fortis also knows that he's enjoying his life in Asia and is having a great time there. Tons of other forum members have met him and can vouch for him.

You on the other hand never met up with anyone. You just hide behind your keyboard and make assumptions about other people you know nothing about.

Whereas Fortis has provided real value to this community and is always ready to give advice about traveling, game, fitness and other topics, sharing his experiences and helping newbs to improve their life, you just lurk in the Politics and EE threads and regurgitate your same old talking points, sounding like a broken record.

You talk the talk, he walks the walk.

Post: #1008

(06-14-2018 05:48 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  p.s. For any humanitarian goodwill types, this will be the place to be for the next 30 years. Being able to help a place like that while being under some form of Western protection would be incredibly rewarding. Unlike a lot of other places in the world, every brick you laid and child you taught would matter going forward. In a lot of places in the world your efforts are like building sandcastles at the low tide marker.

Good point. These people are Koreans--in my personal dealings (such as they are) Koreans are straight-up tough cookies, seek higher education at every turn, work their asses off, protect their families. Not like other poor people who, lets' face it, are often just stupid and lazy.

There is the potential to empower some great people here. But, don't want to get all squishy about it. Lots of obstacles.

But as I said before, the US fucking rebuilt Japan and Germany after WW2.

Post: #1009

(06-14-2018 01:21 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(06-14-2018 05:48 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  p.s. For any humanitarian goodwill types, this will be the place to be for the next 30 years. Being able to help a place like that while being under some form of Western protection would be incredibly rewarding. Unlike a lot of other places in the world, every brick you laid and child you taught would matter going forward. In a lot of places in the world your efforts are like building sandcastles at the low tide marker.

Good point. These people are Koreans--in my personal dealings (such as they are) Koreans are straight-up tough cookies, seek higher education at every turn, work their asses off, protect their families. Not like other poor people who, lets' face it, are often just stupid and lazy.

There is the potential to empower some great people here. But, don't want to get all squishy about it. Lots of obstacles.

But as I said before, the US fucking rebuilt Japan and Germany after WW2.

Korea is also one of the most conservative countries in the East. Heavily Christian, not a lot of divorce and the women are not as quick to give up the poosy as other surrounding countries.

North Korea will no doubt be even more conservative than South Korea. This will be the slow unmasking of a potentially ultra conservative Christian country. I am excited to see how this plays out.

Post: #1010

This will be an odd tangent but here goes nothing.

I wanted to get a particularly popular video game (pubg) and I was checking the system requirements when I noticed the reviews had dropped from the high 80's to somewhere around 50/100. It struck me as odd. Before buying it I looked into why people had suddenly soured to the game.

It turned out that when the game was released in China all servers across the world were instantly riddled with Chinese hackers. Not just SEA servers. The Chinese hackers were playing on American servers too, ostensibly to make their cheating seem more plausible due to high ping.

I wondered whether this was just a numbers game or indicative of something more cultural. A little bit of digging revealed that even the game developers themselves had admitted that as much as 90 percent of Chinese accounts were running hacking software.

That is not "more Chinese players means more Chinese hackers".

That's "cheating is a fundamental facet of the Chinese character."

Not that I wish it were true, but it is, and anyone dealing with them would be stupid not to account for it.

Post: #1011

(06-14-2018 09:01 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  That is not "more Chinese players means more Chinese hackers".

That's "cheating is a fundamental facet of the Chinese character."

It's true, even if it's not every last person, but it is highly pervasive. Even Taiwanese people have told me it's the "Chinese mind." It could be any little thing too, like exchange students going to the cafeteria in their school abroad and just loading up all of the buffet food and taking it back to their rooms for later, up to blatant intellectual property theft. Sometimes it reaches clown levels, like fake banks that set up, take people's money and disappear in the middle in the middle of the night (this has actually happened in China).

I'm sure there are reasons for this, no doubt stemming from millennia of most people being dirt poor, going through droughts, famines, tons of war, and competing with way too many other people, but there's no denying that a civic mentality is a new thing in these parts.

Post: #1012

(06-14-2018 09:38 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  I'm sure there are reasons for this, no doubt stemming from millennia of most people being dirt poor, going through droughts, famines, tons of war, and competing with way too many other people, but there's no denying that a civic mentality is a new thing in these parts.

Part of the reason for this is simply the fact that China is a third world country.

The bigger question at the heart of the issue is, could China change?

I'm skeptical, because the Chinese people, their institutions and culture shows no signs of desiring change.

Every time I ride Beijing Line One during rush hour (the ancient line wasn't built large enough to accommodate proper queuing infrastructure), people constantly cut the line. No one challenges them, because the Chinese standard response is to have a massive freak-out any time anyone challenges you, especially if they are a stranger.

No one wants to take the risk of being involved in an altercation, because other strangers aren't going to step in as witnesses to defend their actions and dispute the lies the line cutter tells. The police don't waste time enforcing good social behavior -- they have bigger fish to fry, both serious crimes and various corrupt activities they are required to perform.

Japan has responded to the issue of living in an ethical vacuum by creating throughout its history, complex codes of social behavior. All that bowing has a purpose. In Japan, like everywhere in East-Asia, people rush into elevators without looking to see if someone is getting off first, even when there's a 90% chance that someone will be getting off. The Japanese solution to their selfishness and stupidity is for both the idiot rushing into the elevator and the victim they nearly trampled to bow to each other politely and go back to their day. This preserves everyone's dignity and instates a level of humanity in others.

Japan is still and dog eat dog culture at its core, which is why, despite all the bowing, bosses still are complete assholes to their subordinates, but at least they do it in a way that doesn't cause anyone else to feel entirely dehumanized.

The Chinese solution to encountering a person attempting to get off an elevator while rushing on to it, is to pretend that the other person does exist and keep forcing your way ahead, expecting that others bend to your will and find some way around you.

Korea is just a clusterfuck of stubborn personalities, a preference for violent responses to any provocation and no creative capabilities. There's a reason why the country has been in a civil war for 70 odd years. Even China figured out that a Communist system with a command economy and controlling every aspect of everyone's life wasn't working, but N.Korea stubbornly presses on, even as thousands starve. S.Korea got a lot of help from the US in pointing them in the right direction, but have a distinctly unhappy local population, so unhappy that many N.Korean escapees are driven to depression by the S.Korean lifestyle.

It's true that the US has been a real dick as a superpower, but the country has gotten along famously with its allies. China has gotten along terribly with its allies, because the idea of a mutual good is absent from the East-Asian mentality on life.

Kim Jung Un would rather starve half his population to death and waterboard the other half than experience even the slightest tinge of loosing.

The best deal Trump can make will be to pay N.Korea to behave so that China can no longer use N.Korea as a bargaining chip.

Post: #1013

(06-14-2018 10:39 PM)Suits Wrote:  In Japan, like everywhere in East-Asia, people rush into elevators without looking to see if someone is getting off first, even when there's a 90% chance that someone will be getting off.

Why would they do this?

Logically, I can understand cutting in line, because although other people lose, you gain by a similar amount.

But waiting for people to come out of the elevator or train or bus(or something related- rushing to grab your overhead items on a flight after it ends) doesn't seem to make sense to me. The elevator/train/bus will be leaving at the same time anyway, so it only makes sense to wait or dawdle before getting on. However, when you're getting off the moment you get off, you can then get on with your day. If you're rushing in you're potentially making those getting off lose valuable seconds for no actual gain for yourself. (The flight logic is similar, but different- you would be getting off at the same time anyway, because it takes a long time for them to open the gates- so why not get your luggage at a leisurely pace and not feel rushed)

I admit I have a similar instinct also, but logically I tempered it for that reason. But it still makes me cringe when I notice others not instinctively wait for others to get off before getting on. I wonder if this deep instinct is relatively biological- similar to pressing a traffic light button or "close doors" elevator button which doesn't work.

Post: #1014

Nations formed of peoples accustomed to shortages leaning into famine internalise cutthroat behaviour. You don't rationalise that stuff on case by case basis because when you have to engage in that behaviour routinely enough it's better just to kill off that part of your brain.

Post: #1015

(06-14-2018 09:38 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(06-14-2018 09:01 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  That is not "more Chinese players means more Chinese hackers".

That's "cheating is a fundamental facet of the Chinese character."

It's true, even if it's not every last person, but it is highly pervasive. Even Taiwanese people have told me it's the "Chinese mind." It could be any little thing too, like exchange students going to the cafeteria in their school abroad and just loading up all of the buffet food and taking it back to their rooms for later, up to blatant intellectual property theft. Sometimes it reaches clown levels, like fake banks that set up, take people's money and disappear in the middle in the middle of the night (this has actually happened in China).

I'm sure there are reasons for this, no doubt stemming from millennia of most people being dirt poor, going through droughts, famines, tons of war, and competing with way too many other people, but there's no denying that a civic mentality is a new thing in these parts.

I was in real estate many moons ago in LA. My sister was a real estate agent too. She had a huge number of Chinese men who purchased through her. Why? They preferred to work with a caucasian woman because she would be honest and just do the job. ,Never ever would they work with a chinese real estate agent, because they knew they'd get screwed at the last moment. Chinese buyers are notorious for making an offer or cutting a deal...even in writing...then at the last minute trying to back down.

Post: #1016

Again, it's the cut-throat me-first mentality in play.

Push hard for the best deal possible on five different places. Secure a price for each knowing you can only afford one. Decide which is the best deal and tell the other four "so sorry, my plans have changed".

In a smaller, more nationalist world this was a dead-end way to do business because your reputation could spread quickly enough that nobody would operate with you, but in this day and age there is an endless supply of new people to abuse with these kinds of immoral business practices.

As an aside, out here in the sticks we have a lot of people that sell stuff at the side of the road via the honesty system. Flowers. Eggs. Vegetables. Jam. Etc. Take the product and put your money in the tin. Talk to enough of these vendors who often have cctv pointed at the stall from their house, and they'll tell you that they can't tell a Nigerian from a Ugandan, but they can sure as hell tell Chinese from Japanese.

Here's the funny thing. Chinese tourists (who have enough money to travel to Australia, keep in mind) will take the products without paying, but not steal the money jar, even when it wouldn't be difficult.



I would love to hear from guys with more experience in China. It seem like stealing money is wholly different in their minds from stealing "stuff".

Post: #1017

Chinese people steal money all the time. Just yesterday I was talking to a dude who works in the educational bureaucracy. A work unit consisting of about 10 people had an annual "reception events" budget equivalent to 50,000 USD.

The key is plausible deniability (in this case, meaning the ability to escape).

(06-14-2018 10:39 PM)Suits Wrote:  Part of the reason for this is simply the fact that China is a third world country.

China is no more a third world country than Russia is. China is highly developed, only in an extremely unequal fashion.

Third world are places where the total fertility rate is 6 kids per woman and where they use roads built when there was such as thing as the Belgian Congo.

Post: #1018

Does anyone remember the film called The Interview that came out a few years ago where James Franco and Seth Rogen played reports recruited to assassinate Kim Jong-Un? I bet the cucks in Hollywood are pissed this didn't happen in real life with the recent negotiations.

Post: #1019

(06-15-2018 06:39 PM)Kurgan Wrote:  Does anyone remember the film called The Interview that came out a few years ago where (((James Franco))) and (((Seth Rogen))) played reports recruited to assassinate Kim Jong-Un? I bet the cucks in Hollywood are pissed this didn't happen in real life with the recent negotiations.

Fixed it for you

Post: #1020

(06-15-2018 03:38 PM)Lunostrelki Wrote:  

(06-14-2018 10:39 PM)Suits Wrote:  Part of the reason for this is simply the fact that China is a third world country.

China is no more a third world country than Russia is. China is highly developed, only in an extremely unequal fashion.

Third world are places where the total fertility rate is 6 kids per woman and where they use roads built when there was such as thing as the Belgian Congo.

Nope.





The definition of first world versus third world is complicated, because it's actually a misappropriation of an older model where the USA and its allies are first world, the USSR and its allies are second world and everyone else is third world.

More recently, at least since I was a elementary school student, second world has ceased to be used altogether and countries have been referred to as either first or third world, depending on their level of development. To avoid confusion, the trend has been towards simply using the two terms, "developed" and "developing."

Regardless, China absolutely does not fit the definition of first world (or developed nation) in the least. Not statistically nor characteristically. Beijing, Shanghai and the countries shiny new airports are not representative of the country as a whole and with the government only somewhat successful at stopping rural migration to major urban centers, you'll enjoy all the charm of unwashed backwater places even in modernish cities like Beijing!

For example, every Chinese city is filled with impoverished people who do whatever they can to scrape together a little money to survive on any way they can. So, at night, they raid all the garbage cans in the city looking for bottles and other materials that they can sell to recycling centers. In the morning, you'll be delighted to discover than this army of little recyclers have not only visited every public trash bin in the city, but they've simply thrown all the garbage from the bin on the ground and left it there.

Not a first world country.

Post: #1021

^Is Russia a first world country?

Post: #1022

(06-15-2018 08:00 PM)Suits Wrote:  More recently, at least since I was a elementary school student, second world has ceased to be used altogether and countries have been referred to as either first or third world, depending on their level of development. To avoid confusion, the trend has been towards simply using the two terms, "developed" and "developing."

That map is great.

Developed and developing works well for, say, the U.S. and Mexico, respectively, but there really should be a third term, though, for the reddish countries.

They aren't going anywhere, or at least it doesn't look like it.

Post: #1023

(06-15-2018 11:52 PM)Pride male Wrote:  ^Is Russia a first world country?

Like most things on earth, it's a matter of degree.

Also, the HDI averages a lot of things, so if you have a country with a significant divide between the rich and the poor, you can end up with an HDI score than while high, doesn't account for the fact that many or most people there live in very 3rd worldesque conditions.

(06-16-2018 12:07 AM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  Developed and developing works well for, say, the U.S. and Mexico, respectively, but there really should be a third term, though, for the reddish countries.

They aren't going anywhere, or at least it doesn't look like it.

I believe the technical term for that category of country is "hell on earth."

Post: #1024

I suspect "developed" and "developing" is as much political correctness writ large than anything else. The connotation of "third world " status would be seen as offensive by the heads of such states. "Developing" infers progress, even where there is none. It allows egos to remain in tact and political correctness to be maintained.

Hence the extreme vitriol about "shitholes" earlier in the year.

"Developed" also inherently infers "needs nothing and can spare all of its surplus".

Post: #1025

Quote:Why I want to stop talking about the “developing” world
By Bill Gates | April 3, 2018

Quote:I talk about the developed and developing world all the time, but I shouldn’t.

My late friend Hans Rosling called the labels “outdated” and “meaningless.” Any categorization that lumps together China and the Democratic Republic of Congo is too broad to be useful. But I’ve continued to use “developed” and “developing” in public (and on this blog) because there wasn’t a more accurate, easily understandable alternative—until now.

I recently read Hans’ new book Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the World—and Why Things Are Better Than You Think. In it, he offers a new framework for how to think about the world. Hans proposes four income groups (with the largest number of people living on level 2):

Level 1: One billion people live on level 1. This is what we think of as extreme poverty. If you’re on level 1, you survive on less than $2 a day and get around by walking barefoot. Your food is cooked over an open fire, and you spend most of your day traveling to fetch water. At night, you and your children sleep on a dirt floor.

Level 2: Three billion people live on level 2, between $2 and $8 a day. Level 2 means that you can buy shoes and maybe a bike, so it doesn’t take so long to get water. Your kids go to school instead of working all day. Dinner is made over a gas stove, and your family sleeps on mattresses instead of the floor.

Level 3: Two billion people live on level 3, between $8 and $32 a day. You have running water and a fridge in your home. You can also afford a motorbike to make getting around easier. Some of your kids start (and even finish) high school.

Level 4: One billion people live on level 4. If you spend more than $32 a day, you’re on level 4. You have at least a high school education and can probably afford to buy a car and take a vacation once in a while.

You can read the rest at: https://www.gatesnotes.com/Books/Factfulness

This seems like a better way of analyzing populations compared to past labels, but of course it doesn't capture everything.

Based on the above, or other definitions, how would you guys divide or classify the world these days?