Post: #3851

(03-07-2018 04:49 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  Anyone got a fixed routine for big arms at home?

If you had dumbbells/kettlebells/bodyweight and wanted to only work on arms at home.

High rep work 15-20, drop sets, heavy volume per week.

Volume has been the key to growing my arms, a coworker got me away from the idea that compound exercises is all it takes. They’re grow to an extent, but in my experience high rep isolation work is 10x better.

Post: #3852

How do you know you measure progress?

What kind of timeline are we talking about here, say to grow an inch?

Post: #3853

A very long time to grow an inch where it counts.

Post: #3854

It’s for every 10lbs in muscle you gain in your body, you should gain about an inch on your arms. Creatine also helps

Post: #3855

(03-07-2018 04:49 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  Anyone got a fixed routine for big arms at home?

If you had dumbbells/kettlebells/bodyweight and wanted to only work on arms at home.

If you only work on your arms you're going to end up looking like a badly drawn cartoon character. Or like an even worse version of The Situation from Jersey Shore. You'd be best off doing a more well rounded workout, even if all you've got are some DBs and bodyweight.

Post: #3856

(03-08-2018 08:48 AM)zatara Wrote:  

(03-07-2018 04:49 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  Anyone got a fixed routine for big arms at home?

If you had dumbbells/kettlebells/bodyweight and wanted to only work on arms at home.

If you only work on your arms you're going to end up looking like a badly drawn cartoon character. Or like an even worse version of The Situation from Jersey Shore. You'd be best off doing a more well rounded workout, even if all you've got are some DBs and bodyweight.

Yeah, I should have mentioned I already lifted for years. I don't lift heavy anymore because of injury though. I never prioritized arms, so that's why I want to do that this time.

Post: #3857

(03-08-2018 09:30 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  Yeah, I should have mentioned I already lifted for years. I don't lift heavy anymore because of injury though. I never prioritized arms, so that's why I want to do that this time.

Having lifted heavy for years previously won't do much of anything for you currently if you're not using the muscle groups though - your body will have shed the vast majority of that muscle long ago. So you'd still be better off hitting more muscle groups than just your arms. You don't have to do heavy compound lifts to do so. Even with just bodyweight and DBs:

- Chest - bodyweight: pushups
- Shoulders - bw: elevated pushups developing over time into handstand pushups, + DBs: shoulder press
- Triceps - bw: dips, + DBs: tricep extensions
- Biceps - bw: chinups, + DBs: curls
- Back - bw: pullups
- Traps: DB shrugs

- Quads - bodyweight squats developing over time into pistol squats
- Calves -calf raises on a step, developing over time into one footed calf raises
- Abs - weighted situps

I'd split the above into a once weekly two day split, Day1: Chest/shoulders/triceps/abs, Day2: biceps/back/traps/quads/calves. 5x12 reps per exercise (or as many as you can do building up to this). And add in a day3 of 30mins of HIIT cardio. So 30min a day Mon/Wed/Fri.

You won't get particularly large or strong without heavy weights and big compound movements, but the above for 3 months will leave you with a fairly well rounded, fitter than average physique (presuming your diet is also in order). And it requires a really minimal investment of time, effort and money.

Post: #3858

I'm curious, and this isn't a call out on zatara: who has ever actually come across someone whose body has shed all the muscle they painstakingly built?

It seems to be common wisdom on the internet that if you stop lifting for a while your strength disappears, your body whithers, and within a few months to a year (generally, depending on what you're reading) you're close to being back to square one.

In my experience, going on the people I know in real life, guys who got big and strong at one point in their life, who spent many years getting bigger and stronger, retain a quite notable degree of musculature well into old age - really until the final, fairly rapid decline that comes at the end.

I can think of plenty of guys who were big and powerful chaps in their youth who are still strong and solidly built (even if far from their prime) well into old age. I have literally never come across anyone that I know of who used to be strong and muscular who is now a scrawny weakling.

I honestly think that if I were to stop lifting now, I would still be able to lift 80% of what I can lift now in a year or two, and probably 70% of what I can lift now in 5 years - and that would still make me notably stronger than most guys. I'm not even a massively muscular guy either. I just reckon that all the work I've put in over the last 10 years or so mean that I will always be a passably strong guy.

I'm not suggesting it's advisable to stop lifting or anything, I'm just suggesting that if you've built any kind of muscle and strength over time, that even a year or two out of the game probably wouldn't be that big a deal if you aren't on a quest to top 1% physicality. That's just what it seems like to me from all the people I know who are still better built and stronger than average aged 60+, 30 years or more since they last lifted a weight.

Post: #3859

(03-08-2018 02:08 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  I'm curious, and this isn't a call out on zatara: who has ever actually come across someone whose body has shed all the muscle they painstakingly built?

It seems to be common wisdom on the internet that if you stop lifting for a while your strength disappears, your body whithers, and within a few months to a year (generally, depending on what you're reading) you're close to being back to square one.

In my experience, going on the people I know in real life, guys who got big and strong at one point in their life, who spent many years getting bigger and stronger, retain a quite notable degree of musculature well into old age - really until the final, fairly rapid decline that comes at the end.

I can think of plenty of guys who were big and powerful chaps in their youth who are still strong and solidly built (even if far from their prime) well into old age. I have literally never come across anyone that I know of who used to be strong and muscular who is now a scrawny weakling.

I honestly think that if I were to stop lifting now, I would still be able to lift 80% of what I can lift now in a year or two, and probably 70% of what I can lift now in 5 years - and that would still make me notably stronger than most guys. I'm not even a massively muscular guy either. I just reckon that all the work I've put in over the last 10 years or so mean that I will always be a passably strong guy.

I'm not suggesting it's advisable to stop lifting or anything, I'm just suggesting that if you've built any kind of muscle and strength over time, that even a year or two out of the game probably wouldn't be that big a deal if you aren't on a quest to top 1% physicality. That's just what it seems like to me from all the people I know who are still better built and stronger than average aged 60+, 30 years or more since they last lifted a weight.

It is hard to lose all the muscle.
I had a 2 year period recently, where I barely went to the gym due to rugby injuries and then a chronic shoulder injury. Even at the end of it, I still looked like I worked out and was fairly strong, but not where I had been. I think 80% is a little on the high side after a year out of the gym - its closer to 70%.

The problem with taking a year or two out of the gym, is that you get out of the habit of it and lose all of your momentum. Before I had a long layoff, I was pretty obsessed with lifting weights, whereas now I'm more into other things and have to force myself to go every time. I don't think it physically leaves you that far behind, its more that you can lose your passion for it.

Post: #3860

(03-08-2018 02:08 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  I'm curious, and this isn't a call out on zatara: who has ever actually come across someone whose body has shed all the muscle they painstakingly built?

It seems to be common wisdom on the internet that if you stop lifting for a while your strength disappears, your body whithers, and within a few months to a year (generally, depending on what you're reading) you're close to being back to square one.

In my experience, going on the people I know in real life, guys who got big and strong at one point in their life, who spent many years getting bigger and stronger, retain a quite notable degree of musculature well into old age - really until the final, fairly rapid decline that comes at the end.

I can think of plenty of guys who were big and powerful chaps in their youth who are still strong and solidly built (even if far from their prime) well into old age. I have literally never come across anyone that I know of who used to be strong and muscular who is now a scrawny weakling.

I honestly think that if I were to stop lifting now, I would still be able to lift 80% of what I can lift now in a year or two, and probably 70% of what I can lift now in 5 years - and that would still make me notably stronger than most guys. I'm not even a massively muscular guy either. I just reckon that all the work I've put in over the last 10 years or so mean that I will always be a passably strong guy.

I'm not suggesting it's advisable to stop lifting or anything, I'm just suggesting that if you've built any kind of muscle and strength over time, that even a year or two out of the game probably wouldn't be that big a deal if you aren't on a quest to top 1% physicality. That's just what it seems like to me from all the people I know who are still better built and stronger than average aged 60+, 30 years or more since they last lifted a weight.

You're right in that some amount of muscle will stay on someone's frame long term, despite inactivity. But nowhere near enough that one could decide to just workout biceps, and nothing else, and expect to have a decent physique. The residual effects just aren't that strong.

First, anecdotally: I lose almost 1KG a week when I'm not working out, if I go over a 3 week break or so. I've lost as much as 15KG when taking an extended break from lifting due to injury. I also have friends that have had similar experiences. It depends on how much muscle you're carrying around to begin with, but if you're at a significantly increased size to your natural one then the muscle will melt off when you stop training, rapidly.

Secondly, sports science tends to disagree with you completely too: the accepted norm is that if you're carrying a lot of muscle on your frame due to years of bodybuilding / strength training, but then stop suddenly, the muscle starts atrophying after as little as 3 weeks of inactivity. Different athletes lose the muscle at different rates, but there are consistently huge drops in both muscle strength and size.

There is absolutely loads of stuff out there about this, if you just Google "how long does it take to lose muscle" you can start reading on it. But for some starters:

Quote:Muscle size, however has been shown to change slightly after 3 weeks of inactivity. One study found a 6.4% decline in mean fiber cross sectional area among weightlifters who stopped training over a 2 week period.

Bangsbo, J, Mizuno M. Morphological and metabolic alterations n soccer players with detraining and retraining and their relation to performance. In: Science and Football: Proceedings of the First World Congress of Science and Football, Liverpool, England, 1987

Quote:Longer periods of inactivity however do result in more significant declines in strength performance among strength and sprint based athletes, losses range from 7-12% during layoffs ranging from 8 to 12 weeks.

Hakkinen K., Komi PV, Tesch PA. Effect of combined concentric and eccentric strength training and detraining on forcetime, muscle fiber and metabolic characteristics of leg extensor muscles. Scand. J. Sports Sci. 1981.

They're both focused on the short to medium term, but provide a useful guide to how fast you start to lose muscle mass and strength. More accessibly / less academic, and focusing on more of a long term:

Quote:But, "within two weeks you'll probably start to show a 7-10 per cent loss in strength levels," Dr Boutagy said.

"Most data suggests that you'll lose at least 70 per cent of the adaptation you've built through exercise after about three months."

Quote:Your body will stop building them up. You're demonstrating to your body that you don't need those muscles anymore. If you're otherwise eating fine, your body will not consume your muscles, but it won't repair them. Over time your body will revert to a stable state that's adapted to the workload that you're giving it.

Some athletes see a loss of about 6% muscle density after three weeks. Some power lifters see losses of as much as 35% after seven months.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/...bae73714d3

http://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2017-0...ss/8426246

etc

edit: just to be clear, I'm not arguing someone whos done 10 years of serious bodybuilding is going to waste away to be a skinny weakling after a couple years off. But just that its not enough to think "oh, I was strong/big years ago, I'm probably still strong/big now". There will be significant muscle and strength loss after any length of time off, but in particular after long-term time off. For guys who were 100KG+ of muscle they're going to have much more residual strength and size. But for an average 80-85KG male who worked out a few times a week for a few years there isn't going to be a huge amount left after years not training. (I'm assuming nomadbrah is an average sized guy, until told otherwise!)

Post: #3861

I think it depends on your body in particular, your age, your nutrition, and your lifestyle in general. I am just coming back after a two year period of working out only once every one or two weeks (anywhere from 3 to 6 six time a month.) During this period my strength dropped dramatically, my body weight dropped 20 pounds (from 170 to 145~150.) I am the small frame, naturally skinny type, so my body was going back to that. However, in about 6 months I recovered the same level of strength in certain exercises; others not so much, but mostly because I haven't put emphasis in those yet. So, easy to lose but not too long to recover.

Post: #3862

I've read a lot of this stuff, I've seen the studies, all I'm saying is has anyone actually seen it happen in real life? I can point at a ton of examples of guys who got big and strong who haven't lifted in years who are still objectively big and strong. I can't point at any who are now weaklings, or anywhere close to where they started. I see so many studies that claim all this stuff, and people live in fear of losing all their gains if they stop lifting for a month or two. In practise, I see people all the time who, having got big and strong, remain big and strong. Maybe not as big and strong, maybe not as lean, or as impressive with their shirts off, as they were when training 6 days/week, but still objectively big and strong guys after years. Not trying to nitpick, I'm just curious if anyone can actually produce actual examples, ideally with pictures, where someone hasn't done something completely extreme (eg Christian Bale), that in 3 months (or 3 years) is suddenly a pencil neck.

I'm also curious how quickly after these 6-12% decreases in muscle density/performance things stabilise. My guess is that that 10% ish decrease is the amount of 'peaking' one might do from a baseline level of strength and conditioning which is much more stable and more immune to the ravages of layoffs and injuries. You may 'lose' 10% in the first 12 weeks, but I reckon the next 10% might take many many months to 'lose', and the 10% after that could take years.

Again, I have read plenty of these studies, and articles based on them, but the real world implications just don't seem that sensible, or indeed to be born out by what you actually see.

Edit: Zatara I've just seen your edit, and it seems we are less far apart than I imagined from your response.

Post: #3863

I know it's true for me. But I'm naturally just a tall, skinny guy. If I quit eating and training I lose gains hella quick.

With that said I gain it quick too. When I started lifting at 15 I went from squatting the bar to squatting 275 for reps in about 4 months. I quit lifting for a while and could barely get 185 for 5.

Post: #3864

I didn't realize how weak some girls upper bodies are, there is this hot blondie in the gym, athletic and built similar to Maria Sharapova except not as tall. She was trying to bench with her sexy friend and she couldn't even do 1 rep of 55lbs and she's a college athlete.

My energy is back now after starting a keto diet, I can do more normal level of cardio without feeling like I'm about to die.

Post: #3865

(03-08-2018 04:54 PM)Sidney Crosby Wrote:  I didn't realize how weak some girls upper bodies are, there is this hot blondie in the gym, athletic and built similar to Maria Sharapova except not as tall. She was trying to bench with her sexy friend and she couldn't even do 1 rep of 55lbs and she's a college athlete.

My energy is back now after starting a keto diet, I can do more normal level of cardio without feeling like I'm about to die.

Was there an initial period when starting keto where your energy was low? I've heard a break in period of 1-2 weeks before your body gets used to being in ketosis.

Post: #3866

^ Ya, normally I start by doing 20-30 minutes of cardio to warm up but the first couple days I felt dead tired after doing like 5 minutes on the bike.

It took me probably about 10-11 days to feel normal.

Post: #3867

Does anyone have any experience with Jim Wendler's 5-3-1 routine?

Outlined here- https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/531-ho...e-strength

Looks right up my alley as I like lower volume with heavy weights and his long term philosophy on training is spot on IMO.

Post: #3868

(03-08-2018 06:24 PM)Intuitive Wrote:  Does anyone have any experience with Jim Wendler's 5-3-1 routine?

Outlined here- https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/531-ho...e-strength

Looks right up my alley as I like lower volume with heavy weights and his long term philosophy on training is spot on IMO.

Yes, I have done it for years and gain great strength with it. Started it back last August, and I have been posting all the workouts at The Man w/ The Golden Gun thread .... starting at the post listed below:
/thread-64395...pid1667304

Post: #3869

I had only minimal dropoff in strength for about 2 years. I walked into the gym 3 months apart did squats and deads at 90% of former lifts. Around 2 years after quitting lifting was when I felt a noticeable dropoff.

Edit: It is well known from studies, at least in animals, that strength training permanently increases the density of muscle fibers.

Post: #3870

(03-08-2018 06:24 PM)Intuitive Wrote:  Does anyone have any experience with Jim Wendler's 5-3-1 routine?

Outlined here- https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/531-ho...e-strength

Looks right up my alley as I like lower volume with heavy weights and his long term philosophy on training is spot on IMO.

I've used it on and off, bear in mind you have a huge number of different templates. If you're not getting enough volume try boring but big, if you like higher intensity try something like rule of 10.

Well worth getting one of the books and keeping it handy for when you get bored.

For what it's worth I've been running variation 2 of boring but big for a few months. Hit a couple of personal records, but I'm starting to feel pretty beaten up so I'll probably switch to something lower volume soon.

Post: #3871

Any advice on ensuring I don't injure my spine squatting?

Post: #3872

(03-08-2018 06:24 PM)Intuitive Wrote:  Does anyone have any experience with Jim Wendler's 5-3-1 routine?

Outlined here- https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/531-ho...e-strength

Looks right up my alley as I like lower volume with heavy weights and his long term philosophy on training is spot on IMO.

I’ve recently started doing 5/3/1 Boring But Big and I like it. Being an old ectomorph, I think that my body reacts better to high rep/low weight of BBB, but I can still get stronger with the 5/3/1 part. Also, 4 short sessions focused on one exercise is more convenient for me than 3 long, multi-exercise sessions.

Post: #3873

(03-09-2018 03:57 AM)Montrose Wrote:  I’ve recently started doing 5/3/1 Boring But Big and I like it. Being an old ectomorph, I think that my body reacts better to high rep/low weight of BBB, but I can still get stronger with the 5/3/1 part. Also, 4 short sessions focused on one exercise is more convenient for me than 3 long, multi-exercise sessions.

Try the boring but big challenge, gets pretty brutal toward the end but if you really eat it stacks on the weight. Don't expect the last month of it to be quick workouts either!

Post: #3874

(03-08-2018 03:29 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  snip

Edit: Zatara I've just seen your edit, and it seems we are less far apart than I imagined from your response.

Absolutely. I think we agree on the concept, just not exactly on the numbers. My own personal experience would be along the lines of the prevalent research out there. The rough figures most research agrees on would be around:

2 months: 10% loss in strength/size
6 months: 33%
12 months: 50%

..and tapering off after that.

I put on about 30KG between when I first started working out and my maximum weight years later. And when I spent 6 months not training I lost 15KG of that. Which would put me at a slightly higher loss rate than the above, but not notably so.

Everyone's body is slightly different though, and obviously different athletes train in very different ways. So theres always going to be huge variance in sports science figures on things like this.

My overall point was meant to be more that if someone hasn't worked out for years they shouldn't be resting on their laurels thinking they're in great shape for life. It would still benefit them massively to go back to doing a full body program, instead of one solely focused on biceps.

Post: #3875

I've been looking for a beginner's routine. After doing some research, I narrowed my choices down to StrongLifts and this one from r/fitness, which they list as a recommended routine.

Quote:Day 1 (Monday)
3x5+ Chinups OR Barbell Rows (alternating)
3x5+ Overhead Press OR Bench Press (alternating)
3x5+ Squats

Day 2 (Wednesday)
3x5+ Chinups OR Barbell Rows (alternating)
3x5+ Overhead Press OR Bench Press (alternating)
1x5+ Deadlifts

Day 3 (Friday)
3x5+ Chinups OR Barbell Rows (alternating)
3x5+ Overhead Press OR Bench Press (alternating)
3x5+ Squats

The "+" denotes that last set for all lifts is AMRAP - As Many Reps As Possible. Note that this is should not be to true muscular failure, and you should leave 1-2 reps "in the tank" on these sets. A good way to gauge this is when the bar speed slows significantly compared to your previous reps.

Alternating Lifts
Alternate between Barbell Rows and Chin Ups between each workout.
Alternate between Bench Press and Overhead Press between each workout.

Pair Bench Press with Barbell Rows and Overhead Press with Chin Ups.
Rest
Rest 2-3 minutes between each set.

I have zero knowledge about fitness so I don't know whether it's a good or bad program, but it looks simple, which is what I like. Would you guys recommend following it?