Post: #3951

Update:

I ended up sticking with my old gym that is farther but cheaper. Old habits die hard so I actually switched locations to the FIRST gym I really started lifting it so it's kinda of a nostalgic thing to be back at the old smelly concrete bunker. I take my pre-workout on the subway and head down after work and it has not been bad so far.

Wack Back:

Next thing is that I need tips on a back program. My back lags and can't get much mass. I can get my back cut with work but it takes a lot of fucking effort to get any sort of mass going. Twice a week is needed as my back is a slow grower versus my legs that respond quickly to training.

Lastly. I am drinking bone broth almost daily. I bought some concentrated stuff from Amazon that is organic New Zeland Bone Broth. $50 a month currently but it seems to help as I used it as a way to get breakfast in quickly. I can't say it is turning me into a caveman but it helps curve hunger and I have yet to get sick yet since I have been on it (close calls with the onset of colds but nothing has stuck). The $50 is pricey but if you consider bone costs and labour/time to boil the shit yourself it maybe is just a marginal premium. These days due to hype, quality bones are no longer cheap as butchers know they can charge for it.

Post: #3952

Anyone run wendler's 5/3/1 advanced template? I'm about to start a second cycle of it after testing my maxes and resetting to training maxes a little below my real maxes.
Reset training max
Squat 145Kg
Bench 87.5Kg
Press 57.5kg
Deadlift 195Kg
I didn't drop squat and press as much as the other two because the day I tested the max I was feeling pretty shitty, but I reset back enough it'll take a cycle or two to hit the tested max as the training max.

Now, I'm thinking of trying to run a cut for pretty much the first time ever and wondering if anyone has advice, bearing in mind the program and where my strength sits. And yeah, I know my presses are weaksauce.

Post: #3953

(04-18-2018 08:53 AM)kosko Wrote:  Update:

I ended up sticking with my old gym that is farther but cheaper. Old habits die hard so I actually switched locations to the FIRST gym I really started lifting it so it's kinda of a nostalgic thing to be back at the old smelly concrete bunker. I take my pre-workout on the subway and head down after work and it has not been bad so far.

Wack Back:

Next thing is that I need tips on a back program. My back lags and can't get much mass. I can get my back cut with work but it takes a lot of fucking effort to get any sort of mass going. Twice a week is needed as my back is a slow grower versus my legs that respond quickly to training.

Kosko,
Check out this site for good gym selection: https://startingstrength.org/site/coaches

Back pain and rehab:
https://startingstrength.com/video/weigh...-back-pain
https://startingstrength.com/podcast/bac...ngth-audio
https://startingstrength.com/article/fro...-rehab-101
https://startingstrength.com/article/bac...case_study

Post: #3954

Post: #3955

I'm recovering from a shoulder injury and I've decided that I've officially retired from bench pressing for the rest of my life. In fact I don't think it's a good idea for me to do any pressing movements for a very long time - I can barely do 2 pushups without pain. At the moment the only chest exercises I can comfortably do are machine flies and cable flies. I'm happy to just keep doing that for a the time being, even though it's boring as fuck for me, but does any one have any recommendations for other chest exercises I can do to keep me interested?

Post: #3956

(04-21-2018 12:42 PM)Horus Wrote:  I'm recovering from a shoulder injury and I've decided that I've officially retired from bench pressing for the rest of my life. In fact I don't think it's a good idea for me to do any pressing movements for a very long time - I can barely do 2 pushups without pain. At the moment the only chest exercises I can comfortably do are machine flies and cable flies. I'm happy to just keep doing that for a the time being, even though it's boring as fuck for me, but does any one have any recommendations for other chest exercises I can do to keep me interested?

You could try to hit rear delts by using a pec deck machine backwards. The weight doesn't matter on those. Injured shoulder joints usually involve muscle imbalances.

I don't know any chest exercises that wouldn't aggravate your injury without seeing it in person. Regular pec deck maybe.

(04-20-2018 08:20 AM)MOVSM Wrote:  

(04-18-2018 08:53 AM)kosko Wrote:  Update:

I ended up sticking with my old gym that is farther but cheaper. Old habits die hard so I actually switched locations to the FIRST gym I really started lifting it so it's kinda of a nostalgic thing to be back at the old smelly concrete bunker. I take my pre-workout on the subway and head down after work and it has not been bad so far.

Wack Back:

Next thing is that I need tips on a back program. My back lags and can't get much mass. I can get my back cut with work but it takes a lot of fucking effort to get any sort of mass going. Twice a week is needed as my back is a slow grower versus my legs that respond quickly to training.

Kosko,
Check out this site for good gym selection: https://startingstrength.org/site/coaches

Back pain and rehab:
https://startingstrength.com/video/weigh...-back-pain
https://startingstrength.com/podcast/bac...ngth-audio
https://startingstrength.com/article/fro...-rehab-101
https://startingstrength.com/article/bac...case_study

I think he was looking for a back program or suggestion that would make his back grow, not rehab.

Post: #3957

(04-21-2018 03:24 PM)flanders Wrote:  I think he was looking for a back program or suggestion that would make his back grow, not rehab.

Oh, that's easy--squat, deadlift, overhead press.

Post: #3958

(04-21-2018 12:42 PM)Horus Wrote:  I'm recovering from a shoulder injury and I've decided that I've officially retired from bench pressing for the rest of my life. In fact I don't think it's a good idea for me to do any pressing movements for a very long time - I can barely do 2 pushups without pain. At the moment the only chest exercises I can comfortably do are machine flies and cable flies. I'm happy to just keep doing that for a the time being, even though it's boring as fuck for me, but does any one have any recommendations for other chest exercises I can do to keep me interested?

If you're a recreational lifter (99% of the people reading this) please don't gloss over this post. What happened to Horus is all-too common. There is absolutely no reason for anyone except competitive powerlifters to bench press. None. It's a terrible exercise from every standpoint. I tried to warn guys about this awhile ago: /thread-38933...pid1376181

scorpion Wrote:Reminder that heavy benching is the absolute worst lift:

- Has killed and/or maimed hundreds of people over the years

- Seriously injured countless millions of shoulders

- Athletically and biomechanically useless as a power movement

- Inferior to numerous other exercises for pectoral hypertrophy

- Completely unnecessary for achieving imposing and aesthetic upper body development

Anyone who considers themselves a casual lifter has zero business bench pressing. If your goals in lifting are all about feeling and looking better (99% of people) then you shouldn't be benching. You do not need to bench to get big and strong. You do not need to bench to have a big chest. You do not need to bench to development athletic upper body power. The only thing you're likely to get from benching is fucked up shoulders a few years down the road that will not only limit your future ability to lift, but very likely require surgery, months of rehab and even then leave you with reduced strength and range of motion in your shoulders.

I've honestly lost count of how many guys I've met over the years who had nagging shoulder problems resulting from bench pressing. A staggering number. The shoulder, being the joint with the widest range of motion, is already at the greatest risk for injury. Overloading it with hundreds of pounds at a biomechanically awkward and anatomically unnatural angle is a recipe for disaster.

Stop benching. Just stop entirely. You will thank yourself ten, twenty or even fifty years from now when you are still able to enjoy the benefits of lifting while guys who tied their egos to the heavy bench can't even lift their arms over their heads.

STOP BENCH PRESSING

STOP BENCH PRESSING

STOP BENCH PRESSING

Pushups, dips, cable flies, dumbbell flies will give you all the chest development you need without compromising your shoulders. Combined with pullups, bent over rows, standing overhead press (a much better lift bio-mechanically for loading the shoulders) and shrugs you won't lack any accompanying upper body development.

Post: #3959

(04-21-2018 08:14 PM)scorpion Wrote:  STOP BENCH PRESSING

STOP BENCH PRESSING

STOP BENCH PRESSING

Pushups, dips, cable flies, dumbbell flies will give you all the chest development you need without compromising your shoulders. Combined with pullups, bent over rows, standing overhead press (a much better lift bio-mechanically for loading the shoulders) and shrugs you won't lack any accompanying upper body development.

How I wish i I'd read this post a few years ago. It could have saved me a world of trouble. But who am I really kidding? I would have just ignored it just as I did with all the many other warnings I read about bench pressing. I had to learn the hard way. And unfortunately many of the other guys reading Scorpion's post will also learn the hard way.

The truth is I never really enjoyed bench pressing and if I had to give up one lift that would be it. But because I kept it up and ended up injuring my shoulder it affected every other movement - I can now barely do a few pushups, can't do a single pull-up, I struggle with deadlift... the only lift that is unaffected is squat.

A few days ago I was rough housing with my friend's ten year old son. He ended up kicking my arse because the strength in my shoulder gave out. I had to play it off like I was pretending to let him win. And I think I did so convincingly because who would believe an ten year old could kick a grown man's arse right? Put it this way - the ego lift you gain from heavy benching is somewhat offset by getting beaten up by a kid.

Post: #3960

As I grow older, I grow less interested in any "heavy" benching. I mostly do dips with weight now. I think dips + weight give way better chest growth. Whenever I'm doing dips 1-2 times a week is when people start asking me for advice on chest growth. Not to mention, Dips are amazing for nearly all of the muscles in your upper body.

I've never met a guy who did tons of dips who had lagging arms, but I meet many guys with huge chests from benching but pretty subpar arms.

Post: #3961

Man...

The bench gets a bad rap because it's executed poorly.

Everyone arches the shit out of their back and bounces it up, which doesn't do much for the chest and puts a ton of pressure on the shoulder.

I avoid many of the pitfalls of the bench by stopping a few inches off the chest and using a slow 4 count negative on the way down, which forces me to use a lower weight than if I did fast reps. I focus on keeping the pec involved.

It's a tool for chest development, but if you do it the way everyone else does its more dangerous than effective.

Post: #3962

Scorpion refers to "heavy benching" as dangerous. My question is, over what weight bench press can be referred as dangerously heavy? I am asking because SS, the program I will follow from tomorrow on for some time has bench pressing as one of its core exercises. I don't want to fall into the trap of changing the program by myself, which is a lot of newbies do and ultimately fail because of it.

Post: #3963

(04-22-2018 09:43 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Scorpion refers to "heavy benching" as dangerous. My question is, over what weight bench press can be referred as dangerously heavy? I am asking because SS, the program I will follow from tomorrow on for some time has bench pressing as one of its core exercises. I don't want to fall into the trap of changing the program by myself, which is a lot of newbies do and ultimately fail because of it.

I don't think there's really a hard and fast rule for as for what amount of weight you can safely do on a bench press in order to minimize damage to the shoulders. But I would say that the weight would be substantially less than a 1RM or even a 5RM like you'd be doing in SS. A 20RM would probably be more in the ballpark, done slowly with maximal recruitment of the pectorals the way Steelex describes. And really, at that point you might as well just be doing slow rep (3-5s up and down) pushups with your feet elevated off the floor, which accomplishes essentially the same muscular recruitment but is biomechanically much less taxing on the shoulder joint.

As for your fear of failing on the program, I would counter that a fear of sustaining a life-changing shoulder injury that great hampers your training capacity in the future would be more appropriate. There's no reason you can't make substantial gains with a modified SS that focuses on squats, deads, overhead presses and substitutes pushups and dips for bench. Remember that the pectorals themselves are functionally (and athletically) some of the least important muscles on the body. Look at the majority of professional athletes across every sport. You will find very little noticeable hypertrophy of the chest compared to the much more athletically important posterior chain. Massives pecs are really a bodybuilding thing. It's pure aesthetics. And you do not need to bench to induce hypertrophy in the pecs. There are superior exercises for that and they are easier on the shoulders than benching.

What I'm basically saying is that by cutting out bench you really aren't sacrificing anything. You aren't leaving gains on the table. You can make the same gains with other exercises, and you can do so with substantially less wear and tear on your shoulders. Some people reject this stance as overly conservative, but I think that weight training should be undertaken with the Hippocratic principle of "first, do no harm". You're lifting weights to look better and feel better. The weight is a tool, not an end in and of itself. The amount of weight you're lifting and how you lift it doesn't really matter. The end goal is self-improvement, which means you want to end up better than you started. That makes injury prevention paramount. This should be treated as a marathon, not a sprint. God willing, I will be healthy enough to lift up through my 80s. That's why joint health is a priority for me, and should be for all lifters who want to stay in the game for decades to come.

Post: #3964

I actually agree that bench press is not a great lift for casual lifting for just trying to work on muscle development, although i think it IS a great strength movement in that it is the only pressing movement that involves as many muscle groups as it does. If treated as a full body movement, the bench can recruit pecs, triceps, delts, lats, core, and even quads and glutes.

If I were mainly concerned with aesthetics then I would replace barbell bench press with DB press as you can get far more ROM and pectoral activation than with the barbell bench.

Post: #3965

So you would substitute bench pressing with pushups and dips? I am not sure if we have a place for dips as I haven't really been in that gym yet (starting tomorrow). What is the set/rep for those two?

Post: #3966

Working all the hours and when I'm not trying to train a ll the hours. Food can be an issue which is why I'm trying to up my milk intake. I've read in places that Alot of milk daily can result in hemorrhoids etc. Anyone recommend a supplement / dietary addition that helps my stools to pass smoothly.. Or smoothly enough.

Thanks.

Post: #3967

A probiotic containing acidophilus and a digestive enzyme.

Post: #3968

(04-21-2018 11:50 PM)Steelex Wrote:  Man...

The bench gets a bad rap because it's executed poorly.

Everyone arches the shit out of their back and bounces it up, which doesn't do much for the chest and puts a ton of pressure on the shoulder.

I avoid many of the pitfalls of the bench by stopping a few inches off the chest and using a slow 4 count negative on the way down, which forces me to use a lower weight than if I did fast reps. I focus on keeping the pec involved.

It's a tool for chest development, but if you do it the way everyone else does its more dangerous than effective.

I thought you were supposed to arch your back, or is that only a thing because powerlifters are trying to shorten the bar path?

I've never had any shoulder problems from benching, dipping and overhead pressing multiple times a week for months on end. However, I keep the weight reasonable.

I tend to find that most dudes fuck themselves up on bench because of ego. I "look" like I can go a lot heavier than I do in the gym, but I find to find that my development doesn't slow down when I drop the weight down a few pegs and go for multiple sets at medium reps. Some would probably look at me and say "You could go a lot heavier than that!" but I don't really worry too much about it at this stage. I'm almost thirty, so I always try to look after my joints.

Whenever I feel like something is off, I cycle exercises out for a few weeks to let my body recover and then come back to it.

At the end of the day, we can blame exercises, but it's often our ego that gets us into trouble.

Post: #3969

SS prescribes the overhead press together with bench to keep the shoulders healthy. Do that and focus on good form and you'll be fine.

Post: #3970

(04-21-2018 10:08 PM)Fortis Wrote:  As I grow older, I grow less interested in any "heavy" benching. I mostly do dips with weight now. I think dips + weight give way better chest growth. Whenever I'm doing dips 1-2 times a week is when people start asking me for advice on chest growth. Not to mention, Dips are amazing for nearly all of the muscles in your upper body.

I've never met a guy who did tons of dips who had lagging arms, but I meet many guys with huge chests from benching but pretty subpar arms.

Fortis, for starters I want to do BW dips. What is the set/rep you recommend, is 3 x 8 - 12 a good idea and see after that is achieved if there is belt for weights available?

Post: #3971

That's fine. I do 10x10 bodyweight dips with 30 seconds between reps. Sometimes I'll do 6x15 or 5x20, but I've found that 10x10 is safest for me. Tearing your shoulder girdle is not a good move.

I'd start with something modest. Depending on how good you are at dips, I'd start with like 3x8 and really master going down and up. Don't rush it. Once you feel good with that, you can start adding more sets and reps. Start light, like 5-10 pounds and then slowly go up. Make sure you're getting a nice stretch as you go down and come up.

As far as technique goes: Tighten your core, retract your scapula (to protect your shoulders) and go up and down slowly. It'll feel like you're unable to do as many reps as you "know" you can do, but higher quality reps really put a lot of friction on the muscle fibers and stimulate them. I strongly suspect that guys wreck their shoulders on dips because they're not retracting their scapula (pulling their shoulder blades back) and going slowly.

Post: #3972

(04-21-2018 08:14 PM)scorpion Wrote:  If you're a recreational lifter (99% of the people reading this) please don't gloss over this post. What happened to Horus is all-too common. There is absolutely no reason for anyone except competitive powerlifters to bench press. None. It's a terrible exercise from every standpoint. I tried to warn guys about this awhile ago: /thread-38933...pid1376181

scorpion Wrote:Reminder that heavy benching is the absolute worst lift:

- Has killed and/or maimed hundreds of people over the years

- Seriously injured countless millions of shoulders

- Athletically and biomechanically useless as a power movement

- Inferior to numerous other exercises for pectoral hypertrophy

- Completely unnecessary for achieving imposing and aesthetic upper body development

Anyone who considers themselves a casual lifter has zero business bench pressing. If your goals in lifting are all about feeling and looking better (99% of people) then you shouldn't be benching. You do not need to bench to get big and strong. You do not need to bench to have a big chest. You do not need to bench to development athletic upper body power. The only thing you're likely to get from benching is fucked up shoulders a few years down the road that will not only limit your future ability to lift, but very likely require surgery, months of rehab and even then leave you with reduced strength and range of motion in your shoulders.

I've honestly lost count of how many guys I've met over the years who had nagging shoulder problems resulting from bench pressing. A staggering number. The shoulder, being the joint with the widest range of motion, is already at the greatest risk for injury. Overloading it with hundreds of pounds at a biomechanically awkward and anatomically unnatural angle is a recipe for disaster.

Stop benching. Just stop entirely. You will thank yourself ten, twenty or even fifty years from now when you are still able to enjoy the benefits of lifting while guys who tied their egos to the heavy bench can't even lift their arms over their heads.

STOP BENCH PRESSING

STOP BENCH PRESSING

STOP BENCH PRESSING

Pushups, dips, cable flies, dumbbell flies will give you all the chest development you need without compromising your shoulders. Combined with pullups, bent over rows, standing overhead press (a much better lift bio-mechanically for loading the shoulders) and shrugs you won't lack any accompanying upper body development.

I tend to agree as the only chest barbell movement that has never caused me any problems is the incline press. I am currently doing decline press and I've felt a light twinge in my shoulder as I've moved into the 6-8 rep range.

Playing devil's advocate here-- with regards to your suggested isolation/bodyweight movements as substitutes, would that logic apply to all other bodyparts from a hypertrophy perspective? For example, lunges and leg extensions instead of squats? I just don't see the necessary muscle recruitment occurring without some heavier compound moves.

Post: #3973

(04-22-2018 06:57 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I thought you were supposed to arch your back, or is that only a thing because powerlifters are trying to shorten the bar path?

I've never had any shoulder problems from benching, dipping and overhead pressing multiple times a week for months on end. However, I keep the weight reasonable.

I tend to find that most dudes fuck themselves up on bench because of ego. I "look" like I can go a lot heavier than I do in the gym, but I find to find that my development doesn't slow down when I drop the weight down a few pegs and go for multiple sets at medium reps. Some would probably look at me and say "You could go a lot heavier than that!" but I don't really worry too much about it at this stage. I'm almost thirty, so I always try to look after my joints.

Whenever I feel like something is off, I cycle exercises out for a few weeks to let my body recover and then come back to it.

At the end of the day, we can blame exercises, but it's often our ego that gets us into trouble.

Arching the back helps you use more of your body/more muscles in the bench and also shortens ROM. It does diminish some pec recruitment though. Arching the back in the bench press is something brought on by power lifting. Body builders who bench do so with a flat back and generally more flared out elbows.

I've also never hurt myself benching and I workout like a power lifter.

Post: #3974

(04-23-2018 04:38 AM)Fortis Wrote:  That's fine. I do 10x10 bodyweight dips with 30 seconds between reps. Sometimes I'll do 6x15 or 5x20, but I've found that 10x10 is safest for me. Tearing your shoulder girdle is not a good move.

I'd start with something modest. Depending on how good you are at dips, I'd start with like 3x8 and really master going down and up. Don't rush it. Once you feel good with that, you can start adding more sets and reps. Start light, like 5-10 pounds and then slowly go up. Make sure you're getting a nice stretch as you go down and come up.

As far as technique goes: Tighten your core, retract your scapula (to protect your shoulders) and go up and down slowly. It'll feel like you're unable to do as many reps as you "know" you can do, but higher quality reps really put a lot of friction on the muscle fibers and stimulate them. I strongly suspect that guys wreck their shoulders on dips because they're not retracting their scapula (pulling their shoulder blades back) and going slowly.

Retracting scapula as in like trying to squeeze ball between shoulder blades?

Post: #3975

Has anyone here tried the Smolov Jr program for squat or bench?

If so how were your results