Post: #1

You read a lot about this on the internet. The narrative is basically that a guy basically orbits around a chick for awhile, tries to make a move, and then she says "I only see you as a friend." Then the guy gets all sad that he's been "friend zoned" and turns to pickup artistry.

This is a retarded feminist comic on the subject, which basically explains in small words how even feminists hate betas, but they have no problem leading them on and using them as emotional tampons -

https://imgur.com/gallery/RmAjE

Well, I have some good news for you. Here is the reality - there is no "friend zone."

Bit of background, my very first girlfriend after leaving my wife was very hot and cold. I was very worried that I was falling into the "friend zone" with her, because some nights she wanted to bang, some nights she just wanted to talk on the phone. She would sometimes say stuff like "Maybe we should just be friends."

What the hell did that mean? What's her game plan? What am I doing wrong? How can I make her see me as a lover and not as a friend?

I spent many nights trying to learn techniques to "avoid" or "get out of" the "friend zone."

Years later, these are my musings on the dreaded "friend zone"...

- It's not "wrong" to have female friends, despite what you've read on the internet. I have many female friends who usually say nice things about me to their roommates and other female friends. ("Hank would be the perfect boyfriend if he didn't have that one screw loose..." True quote from last week). I've met many FWBs through my female friends. Having female friends who respect you actually helps you get laid, and bring new girls into your social circle. Shit, two of my ex's hang out together, and I introduced them. I still even bang one of them.

Key: None of my relationships with females are outcome dependent.

- Don't get too invested into women you haven't banged. You don't need to be rude or cold, but if you're spending every waking minute wondering how to respond to her text messages, watching her dog, and driving her to the airport, that's a problem. If you're hoping a relationship is outcome dependent, that will kill it. Treat her like you would your male friends.

- Yes, you can bang your female friends, but don't befriend them to bang them. I have banged many of my female friends after being friends for awhile. We hung out, they got to know me, and then one night they're naked. Some of my female friends I've banged, some of them I haven't. I maintain a level of friendship with all my FWBs - two all actually bought me Christmas presents this year.

- A no today might be a yes tomorrow. I have found that I have a personality that tends to grow on women. At first it's usually "who does this short motherfucker think he is" to later "Hank is the coolest man in my life, now it makes sense why he bangs so many hot chicks." I just let stuff play out, and I don't worry about the outcome. We're friends, we're FWBs, we're something in between, whatever. I'll do me, and if you want to be a part of it, you know how to get in touch.

- Do not pull the "we're not friends" line. Trust me, I've done it, and it's exploded in my face every time. If she refers to you as a "friend" just ignore it.

"You're such a good friend, Hank!"
"Yet I'm such a bad person."
"No you're not! You just pretend to be!"
"...would you be willing to say that to a judge next week?"

Pulling the whole "we're not friends" line just makes you come off like an emotional whiner. Always keep everything light.

- Obviously, it's a bad idea to befriend a girl solely for the purpose of banging her. Common mantra applies that she either sees you as a boyfriend, or a girlfriend.

"Hank, my boyfriend did XYZ!"
"Sorry to hear. He sounds like a jerkoff. But I'm on the other line and I really don't have time to talk about this."
"Can you pick me up from the airport tomorrow?"
"If only there were some app on your phone where a driver would come to your location and pick you up, and then drop you off where you need to go... some type of car service..."
"But Haaaank!"
"But Juuudy! I really need to get back on the other line. I'll be around for drinks next week though. Your boyfriend can buy."

- Nothing bad will happen if you try and make a move on one of your female friends. Just don't get weird about it if she rejects you, or "unfriend" her. It's usually best to do it as early as possible into the relationship, though. If you've been orbiting around her for six months acting like her pseudo-boyfriend, she might get weird about it. However, if you make a move early in the relationship and she rejects you, just laugh it off.

In any event, this is my point. It's more in younger guys, the "friend zone" issue is men (a) get too invested into one girl; (b) men who aren't willing to play long game; © men get too sad after a rejection, as though its permanent or meaningful.

If you feel like you're in the "friend zone", this is what you do:

1. Don't tell her you don't want to be her friend anymore. She might even send other women your way. Just let the relationship be what it is. There are other women out there.

2. That said, do not make a huge emotional or financial investment into the friendship. Treat her like you would any of your other friends. Sometimes you take her call, sometimes you're busy. Do not be a substitute boyfriend. She can figure out how to Uber to the airport, and she can hire someone to watch her dog. Unless you feel like doing these things, but understand that they won't get you laid. Do you take your male friends out to dinner and pay for it? Fuck no. But if you enjoy her company, by all means, hang out with her. I have many female friends who I simply want to hang out with and bat ideas off of.

3. Don't obsess about getting "out" of the friend zone. Just go do you. You'd be amazed at how many girls are like "Hank, I see you like a big brother" and then a month later are naked in my bed. Do not empower her to even create such as thing as a "friend zone."

4. Understand that women say a bunch of shit, and it often varies based on their mood, ovulation cycle, and what they've had for breakfast that morning. If she says something that sounds like she's "friend zoning" you, don't listen, don't even respond. Women will tell you you're a "like a big brother" and then two hours later be screaming "you're so hard, daddy!" What comes out of their mouth is completely inconsequential. They don't have some huge game plan, and there is no deeper meaning to any of it. Their minds change all the time. Trying to reason with a hamster wheel is pointless.

5. Do not ever, ever, ever question the "status" of your relationship or ask her what she thinks of you. That puts all the power in her hands. You tell her what you're thinking, and what you want. Otherwise, it gives her the power of making the decision. You make the decision.

You most certainly do not talk about it, as it gives her too much time to rationalize. Just do it.

Bottom line - the "friend zone" is all in your head. Some women will be attracted to you, some won't. That's the nature of the game. Personally, I don't like tall girls or fat girls sexually, but it doesn't mean we can't be friends. At the same time, if a tall or fat girl orbits around me, it also doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to be attracted to them. I like what i like, and a lot of it is physical.

Don't get too overly invested in women who you aren't banging, and remember that a no today might be a yes tomorrow.

Post: #2

Great insight!

Post: #3

Being friends with girls is cool. Being in the friend zone is shit. I think of it as where a man wants to bang a girl, she sees him as not good enough for her, but never quite rejects him so that she can keep him around to fulfill some need of hers (could be emotional support, helping her with tasks, driving her places, even taking her out). Basically the guy becomes her bitch and everybody knows it because he's acting in a way towards her that he wouldn't with his male friends or other female friends.

Lots of ways to get out of it like by turning the tables on her and withdrawing the attention and making her work for it, undergoing some kind of transformation (guarantee if the guy won 100 million on the lottery she'd soon be ready to fuck), dating a much better looking girl and bringing her around, making sure she remembers you're sexual by being sexual, etc.

Generally the more guys in the friendzone a girl has, the better her female game / manipulation, and the more dangerous she is for beginners.

Post: #4

Awesome post and insights. I do not befriend women to try to fuck them, but I think my personal struggle with maintaining female friendships is two things:

1. You have to be on guard all the time from various shit tests. Paying for things, watching the dog, driving to the airport all seem to be varieties of shit tests to me. If I am out with male friends, sometimes I do pick up the tab for drinks/dinner. And later they pick up the tab for something else. A woman is more likely to interpret you paying for something as a bitch move, even if you're not doing it to try to fuck her. And she is less likely to reciprocate in paying for things. It's like a friendship with more strict boundaries, which is annoying.

2. Once the prospect of fucking her starts to diminish in my mind, it causes me to reevaluate the whole relationship with her. Is she actually that cool to hang out with? Or did my dick just cloud my mind? The general problem that women have is that their vagina brings so much value to the table that they must struggle to compensate in other ways when it's out of the equation.

Also, I've found that once a woman starts vocalizing the word "friend", they are forcing the categorization of you as a friend in their mind at that moment. Which means the door to fucking them is probably closing, and once it's closed, it tends to stay closed (i.e., "friend zone"). So at that point, it would be an uphill battle to try to fuck them, and absent sex, it may not be that fun to hang out with them.

I don't necessarily think you're demonstrating that the friend zone doesn't exist, just that you're skilled at straddling the line of categorization between boyfriend/friend that women are doing internally.

Maybe I'm coming at this with a bad frame, but I'm wondering if other guys see it this way.

Post: #5

I would also add that sometimes a "friend zone" attempt is actually a shit test. The last time it happened to me was a few months ago... this was after a dinner date:

"Hank, I don't think I'd ever sleep with you."
"What makes you think I'd sleep with you?"
"Oh c'mon Hank, you've been trying to get me back to your place all night."
"Maybe I just want someone to watch my cat and clean my bathroom."
"It's just, Hank, I have too much respect for you. I value our friendship, and your insights. I enjoy talking with you."
"Respect for the likes of me? Jeez. I think you're the first woman who has ever said that..."

We still bang to this day.

Post: #6

(01-08-2018 07:28 AM)Lampwick Wrote:  Also, I've found that once a woman starts vocalizing the word "friend", they are forcing the categorization of you as a friend in their mind at that moment. Which means the door to fucking them is probably closing, and once it's closed, it tends to stay closed (i.e., "friend zone"). So at that point, it would be an uphill battle to try to fuck them, and absent sex, it may not be that fun to hang out with them.

I don't necessarily think you're demonstrating that the friend zone doesn't exist, just that you're skilled at straddling the line of categorization between boyfriend/friend that women are doing internally.

Maybe I'm coming at this with a bad frame, but I'm wondering if other guys see it this way.

Yeah definitely, often there was some initial attraction but the opportunity was missed. However I believe that if there was attraction there at one stage, then it can be there again. It makes more sense just to cut them off though. If a guy's got a bit of a oneitis then it can be done, they just have to get back into abundance and non neediness to be able to get her.

Post: #7

(01-08-2018 07:33 AM)HankMoody Wrote:  I would also add that sometimes a "friend zone" attempt is actually a shit test. The last time it happened to me was a few months ago... this was after a dinner date:

"Hank, I don't think I'd ever sleep with you."
"What makes you think I'd sleep with you?"
"Oh c'mon Hank, you've been trying to get me back to your place all night."
"Maybe I just want someone to watch my cat and clean my bathroom."
"It's just, Hank, I have too much respect for you. I value our friendship, and your insights. I enjoy talking with you."
"Respect for the likes of me? Jeez. I think you're the first woman who has ever said that..."

We still bang to this day.

haha had a similar one. A girl in my social circle where there's obvious chemistry was sticking it on me one night. I went back to hers but we were both too drunk on the night. Next morning she's all like she shouldn't have done that, we're just friends, and saying I must have thought it was my lucky night. I was like "If you knew what I know, you'd know it's you that would have got lucky" and backed off. Next thing she's on me trying to kiss me and the rest is history.

Post: #8

(01-08-2018 07:23 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Being friends with girls is cool. Being in the friend zone is shit. I think of it as where a man wants to bang a girl, she sees him as not good enough for her, but never quite rejects him so that she can keep him around to fulfill some need of hers (could be emotional support, helping her with tasks, driving her places, even taking her out). Basically the guy becomes her bitch and everybody knows it because he's acting in a way towards her that he wouldn't with his male friends or other female friends.

Lots of ways to get out of it like by turning the tables on her and withdrawing the attention and making her work for it, undergoing some kind of transformation (guarantee if the guy won 100 million on the lottery she'd soon be ready to fuck), dating a much better looking girl and bringing her around, making sure she remembers you're sexual by being sexual, etc.

Generally the more guys in the friendzone a girl has, the better her female game / manipulation, and the more dangerous she is for beginners.

I think the problem is, we look at it like the woman "friend zones" the man.

The truth of the matter is, the man friend zones himself.

He chooses to drive this woman to the airport, watch her dog, and incessantly text back and forth with her in "hopes" that someday he'll get a bang. Why a man would choose to make that kind of emotional and financial investment into a woman who he isn't banging, I do not know.

When I'm seeing a girl and I get the sense it's not going anywhere, I simply dial back my attention and set boundaries. No, you're not using my gym membership, no we're not going out to dinner tonight, no you're not coming to Mexico with me. It's nothing personal, it's just that there are other people who I'd like to keep closer to the center and focus my attention on.

I don't even say anything, I just go on with my life, except with other people. If she adds anything of value, I'm happy to hang out here and there. I'll return text messages, help her update her resume, and even take some phone calls if I'm not doing anything important. Just don't expect to be the center of my life.

It's not meant to be a "punishment" for not wanting to blow me, it's simply that I only have so much attention to give, and I'd rather focus more on the women who I'm having a sexual relationship with. I hope someday you find a nice wealthy alpha male who wifes you up.

Post: #9

(01-08-2018 07:43 AM)Kieran Wrote:  

(01-08-2018 07:28 AM)Lampwick Wrote:  Also, I've found that once a woman starts vocalizing the word "friend", they are forcing the categorization of you as a friend in their mind at that moment. Which means the door to fucking them is probably closing, and once it's closed, it tends to stay closed (i.e., "friend zone"). So at that point, it would be an uphill battle to try to fuck them, and absent sex, it may not be that fun to hang out with them.

I don't necessarily think you're demonstrating that the friend zone doesn't exist, just that you're skilled at straddling the line of categorization between boyfriend/friend that women are doing internally.

Maybe I'm coming at this with a bad frame, but I'm wondering if other guys see it this way.

Yeah definitely, often there was some initial attraction but the opportunity was missed. However I believe that if there was attraction there at one stage, then it can be there again. It makes more sense just to cut them off though. If a guy's got a bit of a oneitis then it can be done, they just have to get back into abundance and non neediness to be able to get her.

Yes, that's basically how I feel about it.

With the whole "friend zone" concept, both guys and girls often totally miss the point:

- Guys get confused and butt hurt, because they don't understand that women's attraction can be fleeting, and it's possible for guys to fuck things up. Attraction works differently for guys. If you're attracted to a girl today, you'll probably be attracted to her a year from now, in most circumstances.

- Girls try to turn it into some sort of "nice guy entitlement" bullshit like in that comic. The hamster starts spinning, and they deny that any kind of attraction ever existed because they're so repelled by whatever beta behavior the guy exhibited during the course of their friendship.

Post: #10

Fun story going back to 2013... that's when I was trying to make the Oneitis fall in love with me.

I was heavily into reading game. I ate up every blog, forum post, or ebook I could. I read in one book, I don't remember which one, that if a woman ever refers to you as a "friend" you should tell her that "we're not friends."

After I fixed her car, the Oneitis made a comment about what a "good friend" I am. Fledgling player Hank responds with "We're not friends."

I never heard the end of it. Every single time we would fight or break up, she'd bring up that I said that. Using that line was the demise of that relationship, because she never trusted me. It came off like "The only reason I tolerate you is because we bang."

Not smart.

Ironically, in hindsight, it's good that this relationship came to an end, and she's currently in an "open relationship" with her husband. While I don't think the advice was sound, I can't really complain about the end result 5 years later. She is one of two exes I don't have any type of relationship with anymore.

I will never use the "We're not friends" line ever again. All it does is piss them off and make them not trust you. I maintain perfectly healthy friendships with the women I'm banging, and the ones I'm not.

Post: #11

But I can guarantee you guys who get friendzoned don't start off this way (and I'm not talking about the "married" aspect).





Coming in sideways with a casual vibe (whether it's officially called friend or not) may work, but I still think it means the foundation of chemistry is weak.

Post: #12

I really don't see the point in having females as friends.

The only female 'friends' I have are either girls I've fucked before and *I* have put them in the 'friend zone' and they hope to fuck me again one day (I had one buy me a drink on NYE...the girl I'm currently dating wasn't thrilled about that but hey, it happens to her all the time so I told her to deal with it). So girls don't friend zone me, I friend zone them. They can orbit me and buy me drinks if they want. And if I ever have a dry spell and am feeling really pathetic, maybe...just maybe...I'll throw them a pity fuck. If they're lucky.

The other females I would say are friends are girls I'm talking to just because I want to bang their friends. But again, I'm not really "friends" with them in the classic sense. More of an acquaintance that I'm using a means to an end.

Not trying to be flippant, but seriously...what does a female bring to a friendship? Unless she's a lesbian, I really have no similar interests. I can't talk about chasing girls, I can't talk about sports (some girls claim to be fans but c'mon...their knowledge is usually minimal), I can't talk about cars, I can't talk about politics, I can't talk about how feminism is rotting society, I can't talk about good action movies, etc. etc. You get the idea.

They just don't bring anything beneficial to a friendship. I have plenty of guy friends I'd rather hang out with and talk about the things mentioned above.

Why would I waste my time talking to a girl that I have no interest in fucking? I just don't see how that's a good use of time. If she is a female I don't have any interest in fucking, chances are she's either fat or extremely unattractive. I'd rather spend time: gaming other girls, hanging out with my guy friends, working, or sleeping.

Post: #13

^ They can be fun to go out partying with, as well as act as social proof. I like my female and mixed social circles, not necessarily as much as my all male ones but they're still cool.

Post: #14

So whats the correct response when a girl says you dont talk to her like you used to?

Basically when they ask about you drifting away (when you divert attention to other women)

Post: #15

When first starting out I exclusively hit on women outside of my social circle because I wasn't confident in transitioning from a non-sexual to a sexual frame with people I had a prior relationship with.

Over the past couple of years I've started hooking up with acquaintances and friends of friends, sometimes these women have instigated things with me. In most cases I'm still friends with them. Not 'bail me out of jail' friends but 'lets hang out for a drink, dinner, go to the cinema' type friends.

I think it's because I have a more polarising 'man' / sexual aura about me in terms of how I behave than I used to.

To me it seems most guys complaining about the friend zone come across as asexual and women can't imagine anyone being interested in them. I'm not even talking about social proof. Just bland guys that don't have anything to offer the world or women.

I like having female friends, it's not necessary for me that all the people I hang out with have the exact same beliefs and ideas as myself.

If you try to be friends with women just in order to hook up with them or their friends later then you will fail. But if you genuinely like hanging out with them and you have a bit of masculinity about you then things might end up falling in your lap.

Post: #16

The last female friend I had I was 9 years old, and we played doctor together...

Please explain Hank. Are you a feminine dude that likes to talk about shopping and rumors?

Post: #17

(01-08-2018 02:07 PM)xxx Wrote:  The last female friend I had I was 9 years old, and we played doctor together...

Men and women are not meant to be friends. If you have a woman that you enjoy talking to why wouldn't you fuck her? It makes no sense at all.

Unless it's a business relationship or she's your friends' girl, I just don't get it

Please explain Hank. Are you a feminine dude that likes to talk about shopping and rumors? Even if, don't you have a sister to do that with?

This attitude is foreign to me.

I have female friends ranging in age from early 20s to early 30s that are either students or work in corporate, science or creative fields. I've hung out with them at parties, galleries, markets, gigs, social dances. We talk about all kinds of topics.

Post: #18

^ Don't you have family for that? If I feel like talking to a woman I'll talk to my sister.

I guess men with low testosterone are on a wavelength similar to women; I see all women as sexual objects, except for older women which I see as mother or grandmother figures, and my sister which a see as a daughter.

Post: #19

(01-08-2018 02:27 PM)xxx Wrote:  ^ Don't you have family for that? If I feel like talking to a woman I'll talk to my sister.

I guess men with low testosterone are on a wavelength similar to women; I see all women as sexual objects, except for older women which I see as mother or grandmother figures, and my sister which a see as a daughter.

Well as I said, sometimes I hook up with female friends so it seems I have the bare minimum needed testosterone to achieve that.

Post: #20

OP sounds more like he treats his female "friends" like bratty kid sisters, not the same as male friends. If a male friend of mine needed some help, someone to talk to about issues with their love life, or something as basic as a ride from the airport then I'm there.

Keeping females in your life for utilitarian purposes such as FWB's, professional networking, being a good wingwoman, or hooking you up with her friends is dissimilar from being a friend. These are actual outcome dependent relationships. If the girl stops providing a benefit then you don't spend time with her.

I wrote about this exact thing years ago:

http://www.returnofkings.com/24101/its-i...be-friends

The only legitimate female friends I have in my life are women I already banged plenty and have kept friendly with over the years. They are good people and I would help them and talk to them whenever they needed as they would for me. Keep in mind, though, I have already had sex with these women.

As far as keeping yourself out of the friend zone - as OP suggest it's simply a matter of how you frame the relationship. If you are involved with a girl that you want to have sex with and she refuses you the pleasure then simply stop interacting with her.

Post: #21

Hank is the type of guy to go on lunch dates with his female friends.. He's a biological beta that figured out how to imitate alpha behavior to bang a lot of women.

I didn't think that was possible. I thought most men that learned game were like Roosh; biological alphas that were late bloomers/masculine introverted guys that want to come out of their shells.

Post: #22

(01-08-2018 02:57 PM)xxx Wrote:  Hank is the type of guy to go on lunch dates with his female friends.. He's a biological beta that figured out how to imitate alpha behavior to bang a lot of women.

I didn't think that was possible. I thought most men that learned game were like Roosh; biological alphas that were late bloomers/masculine introverted guys that want to come out of their shells.

You see the 117 next to his name? That means he is highly respected and has brought a lot of value in his time here.

Post: #23

Props to the guy, his type are quite rare. As I said, didn't think it was possible -- I've never seen it before.

Post: #24

I get your point, @HankMoody. Quality post as always.
I agree w/ @Villain that it's hard to actually be "good friends" w/ a female. They are usually not good friends, not a good influence and only a very small amount of girls will stay with you and show "loyalty".

However, I don't like the black & white thinking of just "fuck being friend zoned and having female friends." or "they are only good for sex." I have had many female friends that I didn't necessarily wanted to fuck, but just hanging out with helped my own game, understand their psychology and how they go about their day. (Ex. I was surprised that a girl will just stay home and cry in her messy room when she was asked out for a coffee date by a guy making 6 figures and looks above 8+)

The more you spend time with them the more you learn how they operate behind the doors as you get pretty close to them.

At the end of the day, "social circle" is the most common way that couples are made and the primary way for people to getting married. It has been that way for years.

People should go check out RSD Luke's content. He focuses on social circle game. The hottest girls who are 9s and 10s will rarely bang a guy from just a cold-approach in a club or day game situation.

They are usually rolling in high status social circles and still get enough attention and validation through online presence and within their elite social circle. For them to go on a date with a guy who cold-approached them is out of their reality.

Post: #25

Good insight, however I would agree with some above that female friends is something I don't have. I know women I have fucked, women I am fucking now, and women I want to fuck. When I need to talk to someone about something bothering me, I am talking to family or male friends. I got "friend zoned" one time years ago, and an older guy put me on to the game. He asked me - who introduced the word "friend" first? I answered she did.

He said she has already put you in a box, and the amount of effort trying to get out of that isn't worth it. At that time I didn't listen, 3 frustrated months later, I told him he was right.