Post: #76

Quote:I don't know about this. The amount of time needed to invest in social circles is actually very high because you have to keep tending to those groups. I actually think the reason more marriages may come from other sources is because many people are afraid to venture outside of social circles. In some places, it is also against the cultural norms to approach women outside of social circles. In other words, most people use these methods which is why they yield the most results. However, this does not mean other methods do not work and should not be used. The point of game to me is to develop extra skills so that these other methods can become effective for them.

Agreed it's a mixture of fear, ego & cultural dogma in terms of people meeting outside of social circles.

That said the aspect of "time" and social circle is misrepresented...

It literally is the most ROI socially and this goes beyond just girls. Yes, I can hit up a friend, show up & BAM a bunch of girls in my presence. However, it's the unbounded options/connections of all the different social circles and realms.

When I did the math...
- Affiliated to 12-15 different social circles (not including the 50 or so connects I had)
- Each of the affiliated social circles on average I met 1x every 2 wks to 3-months
- With the amount of women entering my presence, I technically didn't even have to cold approach
- My personal social circle...girls used to purposely bring me their friends.
- Everyday for 1-2 months straight I was getting 1 to 3 texts from women wanting to see me

In less than a year of exploring what's now been my current philosophy of 6 years...I had to slow down on cold approach because my life was becoming too much for me to handle. I'd be out and over 20 people are vying for my attention and pulling me in different directions. All I remember was I couldn't pour a drink, look at my phone or just enjoy atmosphere without someone interacting with me.

The kicker...3 years with a GF just didn't mesh well at all. I naively thought it would be like hanging with the female friends I'd hit up to bugout with...

How wrong I was for such an assumption, didn't meet nor invite anyone into my life for the past 3 years...

Yet despite many of these circles dissolving while I was imprisoned in monogamy...I could go out today and it's as if that 3 year gap didn't exist.

Contrast, most guys 3 years later are still out in the cold streets of NY clocking in that 5 hours of daygame. Guys hitting the same cities they've travelled to for years yet it's as if they're NEW starting from scratch as they made no footprint the first time.

The dogma of social circles is due to not understanding how social navigation works. There is no obligation of "sticking around".

By the very nature of how social you are, it isn't expected that you'd be dependent on this 1 social circle nor would it say anything negative if "you can't make it".

My female friends all knew, I'd be everywhere and nowhere all at the sametime. There was no telling which circle of friends I'd be meeting or which new people I'd meet. Sometimes I wouldn't even be around yet in the same venue...

Daygame is a great supplementary tool...You can go from "random ina city" to "mover/shaker" within less than a week...

P.S...In terms of TIME...You have to take into account I never go on dates, talk on phone or text back & forth. Actual sex usually occurred in a cumulative 5-15min. I was literally everywhere and nowhere. When I think of daygame intellectually...THE WOMAN, needs to show me why I should spend more than 2-3mins chatting to her in the day.

P.S.S...I disregarded all the "low guard" theories and stuff. As my personal experiences & perspective has shown it's a waste of thoughts. People go out to have fun, hoping to meet enjoyable people, and "get off". She might be on guard with you BUT when she spots what she interprets as the right guy, it's just about enjoying the experience from there.

Post: #77

I went to a club last night. Packed, DJ, rappers performing. 3-5 girls I would bang, one an ex-gf, two with boyfriend. Many fatties. Talked to the 2, not seeing a bang coming out of it. Had a good time with friends regardless. Night game isn't all that, maybe I'm hitting the wrong spots.

Post: #78

Two Daygamers regarded as "top", Krauser and Torero, have published their numbers for some years publicly, so it's no secret that, according to them, they lay anywhere between 1/50 (2%) and 1/25 (4%) of the girls that they approach. Probably some pre-approach screening takes place as well, even for such high volume daygamers. I've heard from others similar numbers of around 1/30, and these are from guys who look good and are skilled. It seems that the 4-5% is a ceiling that not even the best looking and the best skilled could break. I've met cool guys who have had things together and who admit 1% is normal for them in daygame. I would be inclined to believe their approximate approach to lay conversion rate even though I haven't gamed with all of these personally. (A few 3% guys I have, though, and interesting they are hitting similar numbers of the supposed "best in the world", the difference might be in quality as I've not seen Krauser or Torero's range of girls.)

But it's not just about conversion rates. You could approach one solitary set in the mall, luck out, get a date, she's easy, and bang. You are now sitting on a 100% conversion rate that your pride really, really doesn't want you to shatter with a dose of reality by doing any more day time approaches. But that's what it takes: work. Raw input volume. Enough, arguably, to burn down a small city quickly. That's my qualm about some of these "day gamers" and the bootcamps they teach. It's enough that Krauser can knock out 20 approaches a day on his own, but then multiply that by half a dozen eager, often maladjusted bootcamp students, and you have the ultimate "shitting where you eat" situation, and also, "shitting where other guys are trying to eat" situation as well. Believe me, if you haven't seen it, watching these bootcamps is disturbing. You see within an hour or two the destruction of the slightly fringe art of a courageous, charming yet tactful approach outside common avenues of obnoxious bars and nightclubs debased into yet another really annoying thing women have to avoid on the streets, like charity fundraisers or, in EE, gypsies and the homeless as well.

By these top Daygamers a number of 1000 sets was established as the minimum number of sets to "get good". New York or London this may be possible with just a few Daygamers with some ill effect but limited, however with Daygame having become relatively mainstream compared to, say, when Mystery was doing his tricks in Toronto and LA nightclubs in the early 2000s, the number of clueless, socially awkward guys trying daygame, often in the form of bootcamp, has risen dramatically. The "EE Bootcamp" has left cities not large enough to cope with the volume of day time approaches. Capitals like Tallinn or Riga or 2nd tier cities like Lublin or Wroclaw just don't have the population to support it.

On the one hand you can't knock a guy who is genuinely trying to improve his life through what is very, very hard work, but I can't lie when I say I wish there were some sort of "filter" for guys who even try at this. Even if you're not normal (you're doing Daygame at the end of the day), Daygame is ironically an exercise in genuinely coming across as normal in addition to the "game" aspects of it. Most guys don't pass this test. Heck neither Krauser nor Torero did at the start, they were just blindly persistent enough - the exceptions - to go (in the case of the former) over 1000 (yes one thousand) Daygame sets without getting laid. And Krauser had a lot of things to iron out but he was by no means the worst among the groups of guys doing Daygame. By the beginning of 2013 I have heard that Tom Torero had done approximately between 4000 to 5000 day game sets. I don't know the exact date he had got into the game fully but he was known above all to be out all the time in London, before he adopted the travel the world for unsuspecting Slavs model. You'd assume by the 1000 mark he would have a sort of framework that he does on every single set. Imagine the grind of seemingly-spontaneously appearing in front of an unsuspecting Russian girl in Moscow, having already done the exact same thing nearly 20 times that same day, and a few thousand times in your life. I'd argue you'd have to be either insane, retarded or semi/full on autistic to enjoy it, which is what Torero did for the most part. He framed everything as a positive. Daygame was his "therapy"; his therapy and subsequent "profession" that either completely spoiled or at least considerably deteriorated formerly glorious spots. Krauser, his crew, his bootcamps, likewise had collectively accumulated tens of thousands of sets, Krauser alone doing many thousands. You can't knock the hustle but all sorts of little bootcamp ventures and unofficial "coaches" are taking groups of guys out to EE still, based on that same model, and the delusion of progress because EE girls reject a lot more politely than western girls, though this is changing as we speak due to deterioration.

It does take practise to get good at anything, but instead of robotically doing the exact same thing a hundred times and learning next to nothing from this process, wouldn't it be better for men, for themselves and men who choose Daygame after them, to stop the daytime robotic spamming, do fewer approaches and actually learn far more from each individual set? This may well include an honest analysis of whether there are things that need to be addressed before engaging in something as difficult as approaching women randomly in the cold light of day, which even normal, well adjusted men would struggle tremendously at, and it's probably why there is such a high Daygame burnout rate, bootcamp turnover, and ultimately a small number of Daygame "masters" whose primary strength was extremes of persistence even through seemingly insurmountable negative feedback (e.g. 1000 approaches without a lay), and whose secondary strength was to find a structure to what they were doing, when they did find success.

I do think ultimately doing Daygame just for notches is only for Daygame enthusiasts, the rare guys who enjoy it, even solo. For the rest of us, for all its faults and frustrations, it's the best way to find a higher quality girl via cold approach, especially in terms of personality (choices being limited to night, day, online). However it has been mentioned well here before that even girls successfully banged and even made LTR from an approach during the day will be outliers as most of the higher quality girls have already been snapped up via social circle, which is as it has always been the way to access the higher quality girls.

Sometimes it is beautiful and you thank the Daygame Gods for delivering on dreams of higher quality in return for your faith in Daygame, sometimes it just seems like a random grind of turning over stones until you meet a slightly underwhelming but doable girl who is just DTF.

The best book I've personally ever read on Daygame is by neither Torero nor Krauser, but rather by a guy who calls himself "Bodi". The book is in two parts and is called "Death by a Thousand Sluts." It is one of the most unique books I've actually ever read and I know this sounds like hyperbole but I would suggest one reserve judgment on that call until after one has read it. It contains some frankly extremely disturbing reading, psychological demons laying waste to years of this guy's life as he deep down never gives up on Daygame despite an amount of nervous breakdowns of which I've lost count but each uniquely disturbing. Also just some terribly pathetic and gross scenes such as projectile vomiting and violent diarrhea at the same time in some kind of chimp or Gollum position, I can't quite remember, with trousers down in order to keep the vomit and the diarrhea from his pulled down trousers. It's absolutely fucking crazy. However I wouldn't recommend it to guys who are "in the zone", extremely positive about Daygame and getting consistent results and most importantly enjoying it.

Post: #79

(01-01-2018 03:26 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  The best book I've personally ever read on Daygame is by neither Torero nor Krauser, but rather by a guy who calls himself "Bodi". The book is in two parts and is called "Death by a Thousand Sluts." It is one of the most unique books I've actually ever read and I know this sounds like hyperbole but I would suggest one reserve judgment on that call until after one has read it. It contains some frankly extremely disturbing reading, psychological demons laying waste to years of this guy's life as he deep down never gives up on Daygame despite an amount of nervous breakdowns of which I've lost count but each uniquely disturbing. Also just some terribly pathetic and gross scenes such as projectile vomiting and violent diarrhea at the same time in some kind of chimp or Gollum position, I can't quite remember, with trousers down in order to keep the vomit and the diarrhea from his pulled down trousers. It's absolutely fucking crazy. However I wouldn't recommend it to guys who are "in the zone", extremely positive about Daygame and getting consistent results and most importantly enjoying it.

Heard a lot about Death by a Thousand Sluts and Bodi and always was tempted to read it... I do wonder if it's actually better than Daygame Mastery.

Post: #80

Day game is not the worst way to meet women, staying in your comfort zone is.

Post: #81

Damn good post by Skank Hunt. I think there's a lot of truth in what he saying but I would comment on the merit of 'spam approaches':

For anyone looking to get into daygame the biggest obstacle is going to be yourself, the approach anxiety. The best way to overcome this is through mass approaching. I'm talking 30-50 over the course of one weekend, nowhere near the 1000s Torero etc report. Now, the fear, or at least the crippling fear has subsided you can tailor daygame to your own life, hitting on women with whom you naturally interact with during your day-to-day life (barista, shop assistant etc). You'll notice you become more 'on' and aware of everyday opportunities because of this. Once you've put yourself through the initial "bootcamp" I wouldn't see the need to "go out to daygame", just make it part of your routine.

Torero's videos are an excellent starting point. The 'scaffolding' he provides is definitely useful as you find your own way. I would suggest that you do it with a friend for the "bootcamp" style initial phase (obviously not approaching together but perhaps take turns). Going out to daygame alone as a beginner is about as nerve-wracking as it gets; having a mate there to bounce off will make it a lot less traumatic, and perhaps even enjoyable. At the end of the day, it's supposed to be enjoyable.

Post: #82

(12-31-2017 04:04 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  I went to a club last night. Packed, DJ, rappers performing. 3-5 girls I would bang, one an ex-gf, two with boyfriend. Many fatties. Talked to the 2, not seeing a bang coming out of it. Had a good time with friends regardless. Night game isn't all that, maybe I'm hitting the wrong spots.

I avoid NYE clubs bc it's mostly quality coupled up and fatties in abundance.

Post: #83

(01-01-2018 07:43 AM)3extra Wrote:  For anyone looking to get into daygame the biggest obstacle is going to be yourself, the approach anxiety. The best way to overcome this is through mass approaching. I'm talking 30-50 over the course of one weekend, nowhere near the 1000s Torero etc report.

First, what you are recommending is "Exposure Therapy" which, for some, can work well, but for others, actually makes things worse. Even after some guys get success from a daytime approach, be it a number, date, or even lay, more exposure just seems to make their emotional state and approaches worse. There are various ways to deal with something that is feared, one of them being Exposure Therapy, but there are many drawbacks to ET as well. Every man is different so a blanket "spam approach X girls to get rid of your 'AA'" is not always the right advice.

Second, the concept of "AA" is taken for granted on this forum as "Approach Anxiety", so anxiety when you are going to approach and when you are approaching. For different men, so-called AA will feel different, and have different resolutions, assuming it can be resolved or controlled (as I believe it never fully goes away). I would describe so-called "AA" as not just "anxiety", but depending on the situation a strong feeling of negative emotion which floods my senses in order to push me away from doing the approach. It can feel like a sense of impending doom. The whole tribal angle "don't approach that hot girl from that foreign tribe because you'll get your head bashed in by the men" I am guessing is why such strong emotion evolved for something which, when you've done it, you realize how you didn't really risk anything (assuming you're in a safe country where the men don't carry weapons and target foreigners trying to sleep with their girls). In addition, every time you are putting yourself on the line to be immediately judged by real-time feedback by a girl, and again for evolutionary reasons (e.g. other girls finding out, being ostracized etc.), we have egos which are very sensitive to social - particularly romantic - rejection. To be very good at day game, you have to not only have the skill, but even more importantly in my opinion, experience a sort of ego death which cannot be measured by number of approaches, and a feeling of being safe when approaching, that nothing bad is going to happen, a genuine feeling of comfort.

Someone on another thread somewhere said that game - particularly day game - is as close to death as we can get while technically being fully alive and conscious, because, in order to succeed properly, your ego has to basically die. This, I don't think, applies to very easygoing, non-neurotic guys, and naturals; but for more introverted guys going into daygame as a preference to nightgame, it's along the lines of what has to happen. Solo day game especially involves this. When you experience the "AA" feeling, and the sting of rejection, alone and with no one to back you up, it is a very dangerous state for a person to be in from a tribal mind's perspective: you are a lone-wolf, hunting alone, trying to survive alone, going into some other social structure and trying to extract arguably their most prized object. Profound ego death - or "learned truly not giving a fuck" - does make a person calloused. Positive compliments/successes - not just negative reactions - have less visceral joy because the reaction of other people, even hot girls, is separate from whatever values one defines as what gives you your actual value. Going further you can become full on nihilist in terms of your reactions and your results and then your life. The "best" day time PUAs seem to have reached a level of ego death - or alternatively plain irrational positive delusion as a defence mechanism from being a so-called former "Gamma" (e.g. Krauser) - but they still define themselves by their successes. They find a way to cope with the failures with as minimal emotional impact as possible, all the while magnifying their successes. This is clear in the writings of Krauser and Torero. If I had been Torero at any point in my life I would look at myself in the mirror and see an ugly, creepy looking snake who no woman, let alone any hot woman, would ever even consider fucking. How do you deal with that reality? Obviously he had some considerable delusional positivity in there somewhere to deal with 98% of his approaches failing, and he just kept going with autistic focus. With such a high failure rate, I think you have to have delusional positivity and lots of it to succeed in day game long-term. Both Krauser and Torero have it in buckets. In Bodi's book Krauser is constantly posturing and yelling about how awesome he is and it very quickly becomes annoying; but at least in one conversation Krauser admits this fact. How every man deals with the feelings of daygame, particularly solo daygame, depends on each individual and whether he can successfully cope with these feelings long-term I would argue is one of, if not the, top determinants of whether you're going to be successful at it long-term.

Quote:Going out to daygame alone as a beginner is about as nerve-wracking as it gets; having a mate there to bounce off will make it a lot less traumatic, and perhaps even enjoyable. At the end of the day, it's supposed to be enjoyable.

It is made 10x easier to have a genuine friend there even if it is just to bounce off between approaches, to not be alone. But when you're alone, there is that extra, sinister dimension to it, which can be most destructive and exhausting, but also lead to a higher level of self-development. It can be "traumatic" when it goes badly, but exponentially more glorious when you get success from it.


@The Catalyst - Bodi's books are written in memoir format, but they are also part game guide for men who have pretty big psychological barriers preventing them from taking their daygame to a consistent level, or sometimes any success at all. They are written far better than the "Mastery" book by Krauser, or any of Krauser's memoirs, which, while OK, are dogshit in comparison to this memoir by Bodi, both in content, insight and in writing ability. They also feature many of the London day game guys in the third person, in a pretty raw and realistic light. Krauser, I've never liked the guy, but he comes across as even worse in the book. He is a tough northerner who eats like a pig and talks in an accent barely intelligible to most of us, but this oaf-like stupidity when walking around means he can relentlessly approach and, in his affectionate terms, "rattle birds". Bodi also describes features of day game that I have observed and even "named" myself that are not present in any of Krauser's books simply because Krauser is unaware of them. Krauser did start off in a pathetic position initially, old bald and divorced - but he has a lot of inherent strength and just blind stupidity so that, even if he creates a daygame model as he has, there are many extremely important things missing that will still cause the average guy to fail. Krauser's model is also just one way of doing things, but so delusionally confident and rigid, he is convinced that the elaborate diagrams in Mastery are "the" way to do things rather than "one" way. He is a more mathematical guy than sensitive or philosophical than Bodi, which serves him well in being able to handle daygame 100x better than Bodi, but makes his books sorely lacking in comparison. Mastery is a huge book, but it's just an extension of Krauser's love of his own theories, so he goes on an on about them, as he does in real life. Bodi describes tons of real things that will happen in day game, but which in a huge 300-400 page book (or however long Mastery is), Krauser fails to do, because it has never entered his very limited sphere of consciousness.

For most daygamers absolutely worth the read and price. Even just for entertainment value, I couldn't put it down at times. For such a depressing book at times, I also laughed surprisingly often, a lot of the time as I could relate to a particular quirk of day game or just because of Bodi's witty style, which Krauser tries in his memoirs but largely fails. Just one of Krauser's four memoirs is about 600 pages long. Bodi's two books total 700 pages. Bodi says in 100 pages more than Krauser does in an entire book. Krauser just likes to talk a lot so it's natural for him to have very, very high page counts. 4 volumes of 600 page memoirs - 2400 pages, wow.

The only guy I dislike more than Krauser is Torero. At least Krauser admits a lot of guys won't like him. Torero tries to market himself as likable but you can't trust him as far as you can throw him. Even if his teachings are good or whatever, he just reeks of snake oil salesman.

One thing I will say about Bodi that gave him a huge advantage compared to the average guy going out doing day game, is that he was surrounded by these day gamers as he lived in the same building and was friends with them, despite his relatively low level of game. He learned to shut up and blend in and got precious game advice from some of the most experienced guys and would daygame with Krauser as his wing. That's like upping your chances of success by 1000%. He even had fucking Steve Jabba living with him who he could go to for game advice. (Apparently Jabba was the best of all of them by far). So the only disclaimer I'd give to the more positive outcomes in the books is the fact that Bodi could get real time help from some of the most experienced guys in day game at the time, often in the form of a wing, which forum members here don't have unless they want to pay Torero or Krauser $500 an hour or whatever. Even then it's not the organic experience of actually being friends with the guys and gaming as normal.

Post: #84

Skank_hunt is totally right. Even if one reads bodi's books just for fun, they are worth every penny.

I would describe myself as introverted, but I have no problems in socialising if I find nice people. I just despise these dynamics of AMOG when partying and such, and I prefer daygame by far. I have a system of my own that has a huge success rate and it is like this: pick up a woman that has previously sent you signs of interests, specially her eyes. Period. Not everybody likes that, but it is the most efficient way I've encountered.

Post: #85

I've long maintained that unless you're a dating coach, day game as Tom, Krauser etc. practice it is not the most efficient use of your time.

If your life is all about hooking up with as many women as possible then I think the hierarchy of efficiency is as follows. Obviously it differs from person to person, but as a rule.

1. Night game with strong social circle (going out with many female friends, you are a promoter, DJ, minor celebrity)
2. Focussed night game going for ONSs between 11:00 and 01:00 AM
3. Mass day-time approaching
4. Through 'normal' social circle (couple of hobbies, going out with friends, opportunistic day time approaches, possibly a couple of hours over the course of the week when the weather is nice)

If you're a beginner then it's useful to go hard at day and night game for six months to a year to get to a competent level with your social skills. But after that you have to think about how to spend your time in the most enjoyable and efficient way possible. Every hour that you are spending chasing women is an hour you could be investing into your business, your health or your lifestyle. Yes, like you I also know hobos that have nothing going for them and they pull loads. But would that a fun way to live for you?

If you're a dating coach then going out specifically to meet women is a good use of your time since you're getting better and also generating content for your business. New experiences to teach about, new videos and audio.

For most guys I think option 4 is the best, not in order to hook up as much as possible but in order to achieve a balanced life where you invest in yourself over time to make things easier for yourself on all fronts.

No one is going to pat you on the back for attaining MPUA status or call you out because you're relying on a cool lifestyle.

Post: #86

I have to admit that I probably have one of the worst cases of daygame/sober game approach anxiety compared to the more experienced forum members, at least the ones have I met in real life. However, I noticed an interesting thing recently.

I was on vacation in South East Asia. For a few days in a row, I walked on the beach in late afternoon until sunset. I love walking on the beach, one of my favorite things to do. I prefer it to swimming in the sea or sitting on my ass in a lounge chair by far.

While walking on the beach, I approached a few girls, mostly Chinese and Korean tourists. I tried an indirect approach: gave them my phone and asked to take my pictures, then offered to take their pics on their phones, then a small talk like where are you from, how long are you here for, what are you up to, lets hang out/exchange numbers etc. Basic stuff, definitely a lot of room for improvement.

I didn't get any numbers or instant dates, but for the first time in my life I actually liked approaching while sober. The "rejections" were soft and polite so they didn't bother me at all. I also had enough success with girls from Tinder and nightgame in that town to care about daygame rejections and let them affect my ego or self esteem. The whole thing felt like a game and I got some pictures on the beach out of it. Will definitely try that again when I'm in a beach town.

Post: #87

(01-02-2018 08:46 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  The whole tribal angle "don't approach that hot girl from that foreign tribe because you'll get your head bashed in by the men" I am guessing is why such strong emotion evolved for something which, when you've done it, you realize how you didn't really risk anything (assuming you're in a safe country where the men don't carry weapons and target foreigners trying to sleep with their girls). In addition, every time you are putting yourself on the line to be immediately judged by real-time feedback by a girl, and again for evolutionary reasons (e.g. other girls finding out, being ostracized etc.), we have egos which are very sensitive to social - particularly romantic - rejection.

I believe in Mastery K says the whole evo psych reasoning for AA is rationalising for not confronting their own low self esteem. So far I think it makes sense. Because Anglo guys in particular have a ton of AA but South American/Southern Euro guys do not, which in evo psych terms doesn't make sense, so I'm more inclined to believe AA stems from narcissism/low self esteem.

(01-02-2018 08:46 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  To be very good at day game, you have to not only have the skill, but even more importantly in my opinion, experience a sort of ego death which cannot be measured by number of approaches, and a feeling of being safe when approaching, that nothing bad is going to happen, a genuine feeling of comfort.

Someone on another thread somewhere said that game - particularly day game - is as close to death as we can get while technically being fully alive and conscious, because, in order to succeed properly, your ego has to basically die.

...

Profound ego death - or "learned truly not giving a fuck" - does make a person calloused. Positive compliments/successes - not just negative reactions - have less visceral joy because the reaction of other people, even hot girls, is separate from whatever values one defines as what gives you your actual value.

That's just what meditation teaches you- to truly not give a fuck. Life just is- you aren't defined by your achievements, or the highs and lows that happen- it just happens. The ego death may be scary for neurotic overthinkers like you and I but ultimately it's healthier. I'm not sure K truly is delusionally overconfident, but he's definitely in a better place than most guys I would think. Ultimately if you don't have ego death then you're way too invested in random achievements or positive/negative outcomes which ultimately are meaningless.

Like everyone knows it's bad to dwell on the negativity but I believe it's also bad to dwell too much on the positivity too. People seem to rely on great vibe/state to "pump themselves up"- the key IMO is to be relatively stoic/uncaring about what specifically is happening to you at any given moment and have a lot of self-love/caring about yourself no matter what.

(01-02-2018 08:46 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  @The Catalyst - Bodi's books are written in memoir format, but they are also part game guide for men who have pretty big psychological barriers preventing them from taking their daygame to a consistent level, or sometimes any success at all. They are written far better than the "Mastery" book by Krauser, or any of Krauser's memoirs, which, while OK, are dogshit in comparison to this memoir by Bodi, both in content, insight and in writing ability. They also feature many of the London day game guys in the third person, in a pretty raw and realistic light. Krauser, I've never liked the guy, but he comes across as even worse in the book. He is a tough northerner who eats like a pig and talks in an accent barely intelligible to most of us, but this oaf-like stupidity when walking around means he can relentlessly approach and, in his affectionate terms, "rattle birds". Bodi also describes features of day game that I have observed and even "named" myself that are not present in any of Krauser's books simply because Krauser is unaware of them. Krauser did start off in a pathetic position initially, old bald and divorced - but he has a lot of inherent strength and just blind stupidity so that, even if he creates a daygame model as he has, there are many extremely important things missing that will still cause the average guy to fail. Krauser's model is also just one way of doing things, but so delusionally confident and rigid, he is convinced that the elaborate diagrams in Mastery are "the" way to do things rather than "one" way. He is a more mathematical guy than sensitive or philosophical than Bodi, which serves him well in being able to handle daygame 100x better than Bodi, but makes his books sorely lacking in comparison. Mastery is a huge book, but it's just an extension of Krauser's love of his own theories, so he goes on an on about them, as he does in real life. Bodi describes tons of real things that will happen in day game, but which in a huge 300-400 page book (or however long Mastery is), Krauser fails to do, because it has never entered his very limited sphere of consciousness.

Interesting summary. I've got to say I've always thought of K as very intelligent and down to earth/brutally honest, and I've also thought Mastery was a brilliant book which was super intuitive in hindsight and helped me a lot, so maybe I might change my mind after reading Bodi.

Post: #88

(01-01-2018 04:01 AM)The Catalyst Wrote:  Heard a lot about Death by a Thousand Sluts and Bodi and always was tempted to read it... I do wonder if it's actually better than Daygame Mastery.

I think about it like this: Bodi is great at showing the process and how painful that process can be. I've never had meltdowns as severe as he has, but I've had multiple nights drinking myself to sleep and wondering "what the fuck is going on with my life?" He also has a great ability to explain complex theory/ideas in a few succinct sentences or in an independent graphic. I learned a lot from the books, and honestly, whenever I re-read them, I learn even more.

I've read two of Krauser's memoirs; I intend on reading the other two when I can be bothered to buy them. I know he's not always popular, but my email interactions with him have been very cordial. Krauser is great at understanding how systems function and setting out a systemized idea of daygame. Yes, his books are outlandishly priced, no doubt. His re-issue of Primal Seduction was a helpful expansion and still my go-to game textbook.

Bodi's work is fun to read and teaches some valuable lessons that Krauser either minimizes or doesn't really mention. On the other hand, Krauser's work focuses on how daygame works on a deeper level; he wants you to take what he says and assimilate it to your own style. The best thing about Bodi's work, in my view, is that it comes in a PDF. I love hard-copy books, but it's inconvenient to take Daygame Mastery across the country.

To answer the question: daygame is a very time consuming way of meeting women. A friend and I would have sessions in DC, walk around for 4+ hours, and go home without an approach on really bad days. I'm currently not in a position to do daygame (largely because the Midwest is fucking cold this time of year), but I look forward to getting back to it.

Post: #89

(01-02-2018 07:16 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  I think about it like this: Bodi is great at showing the process and how painful that process can be. I've never had meltdowns as severe as he has, but I've had multiple nights drinking myself to sleep and wondering "what the fuck is going on with my life?"

Ha putting it in perspective I might've been overreacting in the past. I've had meltdowns that are on par with yours or maybe less so and I thought it was the end of the world.

(01-02-2018 07:16 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  Bodi's work is fun to read and teaches some valuable lessons that Krauser either minimizes or doesn't really mention. On the other hand, Krauser's work focuses on how daygame works on a deeper level; he wants you to take what he says and assimilate it to your own style.

What sort of lessons does Bodi teach that K doesn't?

Post: #90

(12-31-2017 04:04 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  I went to a club last night. Packed, DJ, rappers performing. 3-5 girls I would bang, one an ex-gf, two with boyfriend. Many fatties. Talked to the 2, not seeing a bang coming out of it. Had a good time with friends regardless. Night game isn't all that, maybe I'm hitting the wrong spots.

The problem with night game is that it takes you out of your way. It becomes an inefficient approach to life.

Post: #91

In my limited, LIMITED day gaming, I can’t recall a single instance in which my request to get the contact info was denied, and that the contact info wasn’t real.

I’d say on an approach-to-contact into acquisition yield perspective, daygame might be better than nightgame. Converting those prospects to a bang are a whole nother angle though...

But I’m biased because I’ve yet to get a nightgame ONS in my 3 1/2 Years in NYC. I’m sure 2-3 of those would change my tune.

Post: #92

I think daygame is the best way to meet women but also the hardest and takes the most balls and most practice for most guys. If it was easy everyone would do it.

The worst way to meet women is online dating apps. I propose that in 2018 rvf members boycott all dating apps.

Post: #93

(01-02-2018 06:47 PM)IntrovertSigma Wrote:  I've long maintained that unless you're a dating coach, day game as Tom, Krauser etc. practice it is not the most efficient use of your time.

...

If you're a dating coach then going out specifically to meet women is a good use of your time since you're getting better and also generating content for your business. New experiences to teach about, new videos and audio.

Yes, this is correct. I think the title of the thread using the word "worst" is meant at least in good part in terms of efficiency. And daygame can be very inefficient, especially because of the emotional cost. If you pretty much make your living by approaching a lot of girls for show and writing books about it, teaching bootcamps etc., then you have to keep your skills up and the content coming. So daygame, even failed daygame in 98% of approaches, is a good use of e.g. Torero's time.

Why do we see most lay reports now coming out as from online game?

In EE there are streets and malls and parks where you can approach more girls than you can at night, because the bars/clubs have turned into sausagefests. Once you find these "target rich" places in whatever city you're in, you go there and you can in theory day game all day. So let's say you arrive at midday and you go until the mall closes at 9pm. You have a few breaks in between. You have 7 hours to game. 420 minutes. You can in theory get 30 sets done, if you push it double. With way higher quality than online or night game. Each day you could be coming out with a lead that leads to a bang. But obviously that would lead to burnout even for Torero etc.

So what is the barrier that stops men doing this? Krauser's post on "invisible barriers to daygame" is a good start. There is a lot of bravado on this forum and amongst men in general so men are unlikely to admit that they are extremely emotionally vulnerable when running any type of cold approach, but particularly day game. If it was a fun activity like your favorite sport (as some of the best "gurus" see it and feel it), then more of the lay reports would be from day game rather than from online.

Bodi quits his job and gives the middle finger to normal society. Dysfunctional, abnormal existence, yes. But a "normal" existence is also miserable. What if you have saved your money/have your money situation down well and you want to travel and get the best quality girls you can, not knowing anyone in each city?

I think the take away is that day game can be the best way to meet women if you get it, are good at it, and can handle it emotionally. That is easier said than done. So for most guys, it ends up being the worst way to try to meet women because (and we've all done it) pacing around the streets and malls pussying out of sets or doing three sets in 4 hours is obviously not going to yield much and have a negative impact on your life. The emotional cost is huge, see Bodi's memoir for some vivid examples. This is pretty much why most men don't do it, whether they would have nervous breakdowns more or less severe than Bodi, most men would rather go to war for a year than daygame constantly for the same amount of time.

With the rise of the smartphone I'm seeing in the west and further east bars and clubs with poor ratios and/or atmospheres that make it very difficult to meet good quality women. The lack of good quality women and abundance of men being just one (albeit major) factor. On the other hand, there will always be in any decent sized city women walking the streets. Bodi came to similar conclusions about nightgame and he finally determined that he had no other option. So he stuck with daygame, helped by the likes of Steve Jabba but still. Some people are effectively forced into it. You want to travel and get the highest quality girls you can from cold approach? You need daygame. Most guys in the West are still stuck in office jobs, miserable marriages, and being stealthily robbed via direct and indirect taxation on their earnings.

The whole "ego death" thing and "not even thinking positive of positive outcomes" just as one would not the negative is a deep rabbit hole that is probably beyond a topic of just talking about the positives and negatives of daygame. But it is absolutely key for any guy in cold approach. It's something that I confess I cannot truly understand, because we are naturally not wired as such. We are designed to "give a fuck" about women especially, and a lot of other stuff too. Otherwise we would be dead already. "Ego Death" as a topic in the deep forum would be cool to discuss, but who the fuck knows about that really. I mean REALLY. Some monks who claim to have it, OK then, teach him the basics of daygame, take him to a shopping mall and get him to approach a few hotties, see how calm and effective he is. etc. etc.

Post: #94

(01-03-2018 11:26 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  So what is the barrier that stops men doing this? Krauser's post on "invisible barriers to daygame" is a good start. There is a lot of bravado on this forum and amongst men in general so men are unlikely to admit that they are extremely emotionally vulnerable when running any type of cold approach, but particularly day game. If it was a fun activity like your favorite sport (as some of the best "gurus" see it and feel it), then more of the lay reports would be from day game rather than from online.

I'll have to look up that post. For me it's a matter of depleting my personal energy. I'm much better one to one than in groups, but I still have a limit.

(01-03-2018 11:26 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  Bodi quits his job and gives the middle finger to normal society. Dysfunctional, abnormal existence, yes. But a "normal" existence is also miserable. What if you have saved your money/have your money situation down well and you want to travel and get the best quality girls you can, not knowing anyone in each city?

I think the take away is that day game can be the best way to meet women if you get it, are good at it, and can handle it emotionally.

And even better if it provides synergy with the rest of your life.

Post: #95

(01-03-2018 11:26 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  I think the take away is that day game can be the best way to meet women if you get it, are good at it, and can handle it emotionally. That is easier said than done. So for most guys, it ends up being the worst way to try to meet women because (and we've all done it) pacing around the streets and malls pussying out of sets or doing three sets in 4 hours is obviously not going to yield much and have a negative impact on your life. The emotional cost is huge, see Bodi's memoir for some vivid examples. This is pretty much why most men don't do it, whether they would have nervous breakdowns more or less severe than Bodi, most men would rather go to war for a year than daygame constantly for the same amount of time.

Ain't that the truth! I think the first time I went out to daygame on my own was the most nervous I've ever been in my life. The sweat I was producing stank. As I said, most daygame beginners will need their hand held for the first 50 + approaches. And that's fine. If you're in town with a mate just say "hey let's make this trip interesting; both of us have to approach three girls each before we head home today".

Mad respect to anyone who learns it completely on their own.

The AA you're feeling isn't exclusive to daygame, you'd probably get a similar feeling public speaking, doing stand-up comedy etc. Your ego goes into overdrive.

Some activities that, though not exclusively targeting daygame AA, may help are:

Improv classes. Stand-up comedy. Public/off the cuff speaking classes. They won't get rid of your AA but they won't do you any harm.

Post: #96

Hearing you guys talk about how common it is for guys to have complete meltdowns and emotional freakouts during daygame sort of gives me a sense of relief. When I started I was really horrible for 1-2 years with crippling AA that was really difficult to push through and I was always stuck in my head and was stuck with daygame sessions that constantly went nowhere. I thought there was something wrong with me in a sense. I would read a bunch of game/daygame material and was frustrated I couldn't put it into practice. I assumed because I was a relative social outcast/mildly weird person that it was uniquely me that sucked at daygame. It was only recently that combined with meditation I was able to get a handle on things.

I didn't realise that daygame itself was such a big thing and puts you on such an emotional roller coaster and pretty much every guy is affected like that. Which makes me even more proud of how far I've come despite the string of rejections I got put through.

If I was to do it again, I might not learn cold approach/daygame. Then again, the social circles and nightlife in NZ totally suck, so maybe it's something I have to learn regardless. But now once I've learned this, I feel "committed" to keep going, despite the feeling of grind, and yes, the emotional cost.

Post: #97

Lots of "chicken fodder" in this thread, I can't address it all...

Reading certain comments is like hearing fishermen talking about the ecosystem of a lake...Unaware of the ocean a drive away.

Daygame is EASY, it's deemed HARD because the "psychological" aspects internally that is so prevalent in dating community.

Be honest with your overall life, do you want to chase pussy for next 10 years getting LUCKY...

Or have a vibrant life where whether you want to dick around in Maldives with 2-3 women OR go see some wonder of the world there are tons of women willing to ride with you...

...Jam packed life of memorable shared experiences with good friends & effortless sex as you indulge in life...

I was a daygame 1st...Was actually really good (less than a minute I could get new gals into my life)

However going out of my way day in and day out for 3+ hours is a big no-no...I rather indulge in music...

If you never been in a high end night club (biz model dying) then you won't understand...What takes you 3+ hours to spot are for the most part a handful of above average looking women all packed in the same venue. My boy in Miami got invited to a private hotel event said it was the hottest gathering of women he's ever seen...

He still has a long way to go and was INTIMIDATED that so many stunners actually was kicking it with him.

You'll almost NEVER experience that in any city in daytime. This is coming from a guy who did daygame in places like Sephora (makeup shop) and all girl stores trying to increase probability of spotting best of the best.

Dumbest shit is this HIGH QUALITY dogma...As if majority of women are hermits who despise nightlife. And as of girls who frequent night venues are vampires never out in the day.

That stunner you wanted 4hrs to spot in the daytime is the same stunner who was in the club. You wait 4hrs when you could just been out at night.

I know this because when I spot girls while roaming NY many times the hottest ones I already know...

Yeah there are a small % who can't, stopped or don't bother with nightlife. Doesn't mean they're high quality, if anything cool ass dude comes in and next thing you know your so call HIGH QUALITY is getting excitement from someone else because your life revolves around chasing women.

P.S...I have never met a daygamer who inspires me. I have no interest in chasing puss at expense of all the epic life experiences to be had. Know of guys in 300-500 range and all they do is work just to daygame. To me there is so much more to life and yet they can never keep up with the pace of all my own options...

P.S...It's not something to persuade people, this sub-CULT-ure has massive blinders on hence shitty social/sex life. 1-3 years from now they will have barely grown and still at ground 0 chasing puss. I still have connects from 2011, can still roll into the best spots solo and yet I haven't done much in 3 years due to monogamy. The times I've gone out and felt "itch" to get laid...I indulge in the night then nightcap with sex as if I was stopping to grab a bite of food...Then the adventures of life continues with question "what do I want to experience & explore today". No stress, drama just pure happiness that social/sex life is something I never have to worry about...Do you really want 5 years from now your on the busy corner TRYING to get laid? Look at it from perspective of a homeless many begging for money, it's not pretty nor ideal. Learn what you can that look at the bigger picture.

Post: #98

(08-03-2014 06:31 PM)Dantes Wrote:  For me I have met the best quality women. during the day. I am also accept that same day lays are not the norm. For a high quality woman I don't mind setting up a few dates before sex happens

If your goal is to be a player and get pussy, you don't need a high quality woman. Stop confusing goals so you can start getting pussy more efficiently.

Post: #99

DL, it's great that you have found such an efficient way to roll up in da club anywhere and get loads of girls to immediately flock around you. But we are talking about daygame here. There has been plenty of coverage on the disadvantages of daygame so it's not like the posters on this thread are, at least in the majority, falling for the hype of "any girl, any time, anywhere" marketed by daygame "gurus", but equally you have conflicting interests as in your sig since we all know what you believe in and promote. That's cool, but we get your message, you think social circle game is better. You're free to believe that, maybe elaborate on it in a social circle specific thread.

Of course SC is better once it's set up but that also takes a lot of time and effort, and is not as portable as daygame or any form of cold approach, portability being what a lot of guys who travel need. Going to 2nd tier cities in Ukraine vs being a big baller with a heavy investment in one big city e.g. Miami or New York -- these are totally different things, you're comparing apples to oranges. This then descends into a night vs day argument which has been done way too many times.

"Chicken Fodder" is also unfair to say the least on guys who have great fear of doing something but push through it and do it anyway. This is far more courageous an act than the man who has no fear of that same action and doing it. Many men find daygame very difficult for various reasons; as has been mentioned many times if it were easy every man would be doing it and the burn out/drop out rate would not be so high. As of now there are only a few guys worldwide who are really getting good results from daygame, far more guys who rely on social circle, whether they are big ballers like you or have a more modest group. If anything your weaseling out of cold approach because of your big baller lifestyle and monogamy is more chicken fodder than any of these guys out there trying, including John Bodi who fought tooth and nail for the success he got out there. If you're successful in your own way then cool, but don't try to bring down other guys with your boasting or your inaccurate claims (e.g. daygame/any cold approach game being universally easy). Actually discussing the reality of what happens in the field so to speak can help other guys who think they are alone in what they are going through out there. Unlike John Bodi, not all of us had Nick Krauser as a wingman and de facto mentor.

The thing of most use you could give to this thread would be to actually tell us just how "really good" at daygame you were, to the point where you could "get new gals into [your] life" in "less than a minute". Those of us who actually approach in the day know that a number doesn't really mean much, and less than a minute number is very rushed indeed. Getting a bang out of that number in less than a minute, even more incredible.

If you don't want to "chase women", then why comment on a "Game" thread where "Game" is almost exclusively used on women met via cold approach? This is nature: whatever anyone says, unless you're fucking Justin Bieber, you're going to have to lead the interaction forward as the man and if you haven't met her before, this includes the initial approach. Some women might throw themselves at you in a nightclub, cool, and you just have to "guide it in" like the guys guiding a plane in on the runway at night, but otherwise, before sex, it's on the man's shoulders. If you're at the point where you have to do next to nothing to get sex from girls in whatever clubs you go to, that's bordering on fame game and would be irrelevant to nearly all guys here. Even if I took your incorrect assumption that all the girls out in the day are also out at night, you would still have to cold approach them in the club. Unless as I said you are famous and that includes local fame, knowing a shit load of people and being known for a certain thing etc.

Just for accuracy's sake, however, we all know that certain cities in the daytime can be like a fashion show, especially in high traffic areas. There are far, far many more girls of top quality than you could ever manage to approach at once. Even in Poland, the nightlife, even in the best and biggest clubs, was an absolute sausagefest. Maybe it's different in certain places in Miami. In the daytime, however, beautiful girls everywhere, literally 100x more than at night, and yes, higher quality. And Poland isn't even "Eastern" Europe anymore, really, quality there is going down. If you see what you want to see, you will most likely see it. However I actually wanted there to be tons of hot girls around at night, I always welcome hot girls being around. They are artificial environments to which some girls may choose to go, some of whom may be hot. Girls have less of a "choice" as to whether they go out in the day; they all have lives and errands to run, friends to meet etc.

Finding a great girl and traveling to the Maldives is cool, and if I find girls I want to travel with I would travel too, but otherwise it's not much to do with daygame.

If a guy is good at cold approach, he is traveling and on the streets picking up beautiful girls, you imply there is something wrong with that. In fact there is so much "right" with that - independence, freedom, the taste of victory after hard work, because, for 99.9% of people, cold approach pickup is hard work. I laughed at the guys trying to find a "hack" on the recent live calls, and the amount of times Roosh had to tell them, it's hard work, it's always going to be hard work. That's realistic. Again it's nice to hear that you are such a big baller but it's not really relevant to most people and why you would have to repeat it on a daygame thread is somewhat confusing. It's no secret that you dislike the current "seduction community" even in its more balanced form on Roosh's forum, so if you don't like it, all you have to do is stay away from it.

Men will continue to want to fuck girls who walk by them in the street or in stores or in malls or in cafes; they will always want the tools - both external and internal - to maximize their chances of success. Yes, many guys who try daygame are weird and make it worse for everyone else, but there's not much we can do about that.

Finally, for anyone who is reading this and going through psychological "invisible" resistance during day game, or even between sessions, simply because a thought or a feeling is not visible to us, or does not appear to us as concrete, tangible, does not make it any less real. These thoughts and feelings are occurring in extremely complex phenomena, chemical and electrical, within our brains, developed over millions upon millions of years of evolution. Psychology - the man's thoughts and emotions - are probably the greater challenge to daygame than the raw skill. No man should let anyone dismiss the existence of these phenomena as merely trivial. Our entire world is experienced through perception of the outside world processed by the brain that no one truly understands, let alone can see as we can see the sun when it rises. Yet it all exists, and indeed is in fact central to our existence.

Post: #100

Let's not focus on particulars, otherwise the discussion can go ad infinitum which creates confusion and waste of time at best.

We need to abstract away and think about what matters.

No type of game is inherently superior/inferior. It's all relative.

Different types of game - which, at it's most abstract is a value display & delivery mechanism - will provide different return on investment in different markets (e.g., airport, local bar, street, online app) for different men with different features at different times that they happen to bear inherently (e.g., height) or are extrinsic ones (e.g., income).

Multiplied by themselves, all these features with certain weights assigned to them (e.g., income = 0.1 x height = 0.2 x nationality = 0.03 x body language = 0.07 x selected venue = 0.2, etc.) will yield certain probability of success.

Plan to maximise what you can control (yourself + environment (to a degree - you can't control weather but you can choose the right street or bar)) and execute accordingly.