Post: #51

^^^

Quote:This is not quite like in Italy, where the north has been an industrial and commercial powerhouse since the middle ages. Barcelona has been a footnote in Spanish history until last century. When you think of great historic Spanish cities, you think Madrid, Seville, Valencia, Cadiz etc...

True. If you take out the modern architecture, and all the Gaudi stuff (including La Sagrada Familia), Barcelona does not match the splendor of other Spanish cities.

Post: #52

(10-27-2017 01:06 PM)Icarus Wrote:  You have never met any Catalan secessionists, have you?

I have, and some of them still remember the 1640 Revolt like it was yesterday.

Wow, so you met 377 year old Catalans? I've got to find out what they put in the water up there...

All of this is purely academic, what's next - give Andalusia back to the Muslims? Oh I forgot, they're already being imported en masse by the fucking Catalans.

The secessionists are not going to win this fight and Spain has already proven that it is willing to drop the boot if necessary.

Post: #53

(10-27-2017 03:03 PM)911 Wrote:  This is not quite like in Italy, where the north has been an industrial and commercial powerhouse since the middle ages. Barcelona has been a footnote in Spanish history until last century. When you think of great historic Spanish cities, you think Madrid, Seville, Valencia, Cadiz etc...

A footnote? Barcelona was a mercantile powerhouse for centuries, starting in the late Middle Ages.

Post: #54

(10-27-2017 03:15 PM)redpillage Wrote:  Wow, so you met 377 year old Catalans? I've got to find out what they put in the water up there...

Chlorine and figures of speech, I assume.

Post: #55

(10-27-2017 01:42 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 01:14 PM)Going strong Wrote:  Catalunia as "independent State" would therefore become a forward base for Venezuela (meaning, Iran, too) and assorted communist groups.

No. Catalan secessionism is a rather strange mix of bourgeois snobs and ultra-left ideologues, but what led to this was the economic crisis of the past decade. That and Franco's suppression of the Catalan language, which created cohesion amongst bourgeois and commies, which is rather unlikely. Foreign influence almost certainly had negligible effects.

Bourgeois Bohemians (BoBo's) like Puidemont dont really want radical change. Life's too good as it is right now: nobody's starving. This was an attempt at a power grab and tax concessions that went askew

Post: #56

(10-27-2017 03:07 PM)redpillage Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 10:10 AM)heavy Wrote:  To my simple mind, I don't understand why Spain (Madrid) would fight a portion of their country from liberating themselves. I don't understand the idea that "we can't let these people leave"...or even more accurate and more befuddling, "we can't let people in this area develop their own autonomous rule of law independent of ours".

It's bizarre. I think it goes back to what Gavin McInnes says.

"There's two kinds of people: People who want to be left the fuck alone, and people who won't leave you the fuck alone."

I don't know what's so 'bizarre' about this. It's Spain's territory and they intend to keep it, that simple. There have been regional independence movements since the dawn of time and there is no 'right' or 'wrong' as both sides usually offer reasonable historic claims. In the end might is right, people. If Spain let's Cataluña go then the Basque region is next and then perhaps it's Sicily or Corsica. Make no mistake, this plays directly into the hands of globalists who are intent on destroying long established sovereign nations.

Good point, it's not bizarre historically. I mean it's bizarre from my individualist Constitutional conservative perspective. I talked more about that in later posts.

My contention is not that a nation is stronger when a state (region) secedes. It's that nations are much greater when states/regions are unionized by choice rather than by force.

Perhaps I'm too simple-minded to see the marionette in the hands of the puppeteer globalists. I am open to these ideas in the last couple years, however, since I've seen what the money bags in charge can do to manipulate the sheep.

Post: #57

(10-27-2017 03:23 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  This was an attemt at a power grab and tax concessions that went askew

And why did it go askew?

People are capable of having passions that are not aligned with their immediate financial interests. Valencians speak a dialect of Catalan and few outside of Spain seem to notice it. Valencians are speaking Spanish more and more. Their language is disappearing. Perhaps Catalans look at Valencia (and other regions of Spain) and realize that their language is at risk of extinction. Secession is then natural.

It all started with Pelayo in Asturias in the 710s. Yet, the Astur-Leonese dialect is quite literally going extinct. Castellano, which used to be one Spanish language, became in a matter of centuries the Spanish language. And then loons blame Venezuela, Russia, the EU, the Jews, etc.

This thread is of very poor quality. It would be nice to have actual Spanish people commenting here, preferably those with a brain and a minimal education in Spanish history (rather than variants of Spanish mythology that both rabid unionists and rabid secessionists seem to be so fond of).

Post: #58

(10-27-2017 03:07 PM)redpillage Wrote:  I don't know what's so 'bizarre' about this. It's Spain's territory and they intend to keep it, that simple. There have been regional independence movements since the dawn of time and there is no 'right' or 'wrong' as both sides usually offer reasonable historic claims. In the end might is right, people. If Spain let's Cataluña go then the Basque region is next and then perhaps it's Sicily or Corsica. Make no mistake, this plays directly into the hands of globalists who are intent on destroying long established sovereign nations.

You are very right; the treacherous Corsican nationalists (scandalously in control of the island "assembly") have already claimed, a few hours ago, that they recognize Catalunia as an independent State.

Those Corsicans are quite something; lazy gangsta dudes, extremely nationalist (and quietly racist), but they claim to hate the Continental-France Right, which they accuse of being "racist!"... I mean, the most openly racist people of Europe, the Corsicans, accusing the good French Right-wingers of being racist! It's rich...

Catalans are no better. They not-so-secretly hate everybody not Catalan, but pretend to be the most Liberal people in Europe... to sum it up, they hate every other European people (thus hating on their true brothers), but love LGBTs, African migrants and Moroccans.

By the way, if Catalunia becomes independent, which it will not, would Catalunia compensate France for the nefarious deeds committed by Catalan people in France since the times of Franco?

Because, since the beloved general Franco put so much fear into degenerate Catalans' hearts, that they fled to France en-masse, France has been plagued by these communist migrants. The worst commie politicians of France, are mostly of Catalan origin: Valls, Hidalgo...

In short, the French Left has been controlled by Catalan commie migrants for decades... this has to stop! Catalunia can now take them all back. Let'em build their leftie paradise all together, quite soon they'll be begging us for food.

Post: #59

(10-27-2017 03:42 PM)Going strong Wrote:  You are very right; the treacherous Corsican nationalists (scandalously in control of the island "assembly") have already claimed, a few hours ago, that they recognize Catalunia as an independent State.

Let Corsica become independent and Corsican nationalists stop being a problem.

Corsica should either be free or a part of Italy. The Corsican language is an Italian dialect. Why should Corsica be ruled by Parisians? Everybody hates Parisians, even Parisians.

Post: #60

(10-27-2017 03:33 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 03:23 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  This was an attemt at a power grab and tax concessions that went askew

And why did it go askew?

People are capable of having passions that are not aligned with their immediate financial interests. Valencians speak a dialect of Catalan and few outside of Spain seem to notice it. Valencians are speaking Spanish more and more. Their language is disappearing. Perhaps Catalans look at Valencia (and other regions of Spain) and realize that their language is at risk of extinction. Secession is then natural.

It all started with Pelayo in Asturias in the 710s. Yet, the Astur-Leonese dialect is quite literally going extinct. Castellano, which used to be one Spanish language, became in a matter of centuries the Spanish language. And then loons blame Venezuela, Russia, the EU, the Jews, etc.

To begin with, it is a proven fact that Venezuela has been financing the Spanish repugnant, extremely gay-friendly, pony-tailed Left (see Podemos).

About languages: Who seriously cares about such or such version of the same language (latin)? What is a language (Castellano, Catalan, who cares, it's about the same) anyway, compared with a common ethnicity and religion: nothing!

Catalan is a bastard version (badly stolen from the South of France) of normal-Spanish (Castellano), and both are (like French) mostly just bad versions of pure Latin language. But this is unimportant, languages are nothing but tools.

Fighting over languages is a trap, a dead-end. Especially with Latin (Roman) languages, which are all very badly degraded, incorrect versions of Latin.

Post: #61

I predict Madeira will seccede from Portugal, they speak a dialect that can be defined as uninteligable Portuguese, and also the people from the Continent are tired of funding them and giving money to subsidize their laziness, spending all day eating bananas, passion fruit and pinneaples, swimming in the ocean, drinking the lovely Madeira Wine and the fruity Poncha while dancing the "bailinho da madeira". In the meanwhile we will receive with open arms our Galician brothers, and we can recover the Old Portuguese dialect, or Galician-Portuguese. And we all be happy ever after. Galician girls are also not bad looking at all, much better than Catalans, we would loose the Madeira girls and some are quite nice, but they are really hard to understand.

Of course this is all a joke. And it is the kind of futile arguments that are being used to defend Catalonia Independence from Spain.

Catalonia is no Donbas or Crimea, or even Kosovo. Which for centuries belonged to the Russian Empire and are habited by majority ethnic Russian people.(Kosovo not habited by majority Serbs but its the spiritual motherland) and only in the 90s got separated to the motherland.

Post: #62

(10-27-2017 03:56 PM)Going strong Wrote:  To begin with, it is a proven fact that Venezuela has been financing the Spanish repugnant, extremely gay-friendly, pony-tailed Left (see Podemos).

And? Catalan secessionism is older than Venezuela. Older than Spain, actually.

(10-27-2017 03:56 PM)Going strong Wrote:  About languag:Who seriously cares about such or such version of the same language (latin)? What is a language (Castellano, Catalan, who cares, it's about the same) anyway, compared with a common ethnicity and religion: nothing!

People who do not speak French and Spanish obviously do care. Looks like you know nothing about human nature. Language is part of tribal identity. Using the language of the conqueror and forgetting the language of one's ancestors is utter defeat.

(10-27-2017 03:56 PM)Going strong Wrote:  Especially with Latin (Roman) languages, which are all very badly degraded, incorrect versions of Latin.

But Latin is a dead language and Spanish is spoken by 100s of millions. Not all incorrect versions of Latin are equally popular.

Post: #63

(10-27-2017 03:59 PM)Rocha Wrote:  And it is the kind of futile arguments that are being used to defend Catalonia Independence from Spain.

A Portuguese defending Castilla. How strange...

Post: #64

(10-27-2017 04:07 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 03:59 PM)Rocha Wrote:  And it is the kind of futile arguments that are being used to defend Catalonia Independence from Spain.

A Portuguese defending Castilla. How strange...

I hold no grudges against my Spanish brothers. We have peace between each other for 200 years. Why should I defend a hotbed of "welcome migrants", communists, anarchists, low-t SJWs like Puidgemont and feminists?

Post: #65

(10-27-2017 03:33 PM)Icarus Wrote:  This thread is of very poor quality. It would be nice to have actual Spanish people commenting here, preferably those with a brain and a minimal education in Spanish history (rather than variants of Spanish mythology that both rabid unionists and rabid secessionists seem to be so fond of).

Then why are you even posting here? At best there's what, like 3 real born and bred Spaniards on this forum who have the supposed viewpoints and background you're looking for.

Go to a Spanish speaking web forum if you want a localist viewpoint. You're getting the international view of the place the rest of the world feels your countrymen deserve, which to be honest isn't going to be sympathetic since the whole bloody movement is nothing more than a bunch of leftists afraid to get their hands dirty.

Post: #66

(10-27-2017 04:12 PM)Rocha Wrote:  I hold no grudges against my Spanish brothers. We have peace between each other for 200 years.

I wrote Castilla, not Spain. The fact that you view them as synonyms is why there is Catalan secessionism.

(10-27-2017 04:12 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Why should I defend a hotbed of "welcome migrants", communists, anarchists, low-t SJWs like Puidgemont and feminists?

None of the secessionists I have met in real life fit that description. Perhaps you are spending too much time on Internet-mediated echo chambers.

Post: #67

(10-27-2017 03:03 PM)911 Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 02:44 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 02:33 PM)Arado Wrote:  Spain hasn't been willing to negotiate in good faith on the question of Catalan's subsidizing the Spanish federal budget

People forgot the 1992 Summer Olympics. Who subsidized whom back then?

Not just the Olympics, but decades of the Spanish government favoring the Barcelona region as an industrial center. This is not quite like in Italy, where the north has been an industrial and commercial powerhouse since the middle ages. Barcelona has been a footnote in Spanish history until last century. When you think of great historic Spanish cities, you think Madrid, Seville, Valencia, Cadiz etc...

That was then, this is now. Catalan is subsidizing Spain and is linguistically different - this is undeniable. This is also a recipe for separatism and resentment given human nature. Is that not a core nationalist impulse? Look at how the EU is taking Spain's side as well.

I still fail to see how a people that want to preserve their separate identity and use their tax money to help themselves rather than others is not nationalism. I don't deny that there are some EU/refugee worshippers and crazy feminists among them, but ultimately they want to preserve their identity and control their destiny. Their desire for refugees is about social preening, not about self hatred towards their own culture.

In the modern "rules based order" where nations don't have to worry about being invaded by others, there is no reason to tie yourself to a nation state that is a net drain on your finances.

Obviously if this was during the 1800's era of European great power competition or pre WW1/WW2 then perhaps Catalan would see the value of linking up with a local power so they wouldn't get steamrolled.

Even so, Spain hasn't been a great power in centuries so I could understand Catalan seeing them as dragging them down.

Post: #68

(10-27-2017 03:50 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 03:42 PM)Going strong Wrote:  You are very right; the treacherous Corsican nationalists (scandalously in control of the island "assembly") have already claimed, a few hours ago, that they recognize Catalunia as an independent State.

Let Corsica become independent and Corsican nationalists stop being a problem.

Corsica should either be free or a part of Italy. The Corsican language is an Italian dialect. Why should Corsica be ruled by Parisians? Everybody hates Parisians, even Parisians.

Of course, Corsicans can be independent, the lazy Genoan arsonists are welcome to have their own country, and good riddance.

But first, they have to give back to Continental France, one thousand billions of dollars.

Well yes, for decades and decades, France has been paying for everything in Corsica, where nobody works. Not an industry exists in Corsica, nothing but people staring at the sea and burning Parisians' holiday homes.

So, first, the Corsicans give back all the money they conned and stole from France, then the Catalans give back all the money they conned and stole from Spain along the centuries, then they both can get independent and look at the sea (dirty in Barcelona's case) with no job or industry in sight. They'll die of hunger. Like all commies eventually do

Post: #69

(10-27-2017 04:13 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Then why are you even posting here?

Why are you? My ancestors lived in Hispania for tens of millennia. Did yours?

Post: #70

An amusing fact that no one seems to notice:

Both Franco and Rajoy were born in Galicia! Not "pure" Spaniards.

It gets better. Rajoy's grandfather was very active in seeking greater autonomy for Galicia in the 1930s.

Post: #71

(10-27-2017 04:18 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 04:13 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Then why are you even posting here?

Why are you? My ancestors lived in Hispania for tens of millennia. Did yours?

Post: #72

Also amusing is the secessionists' "Catalunya is not Spain". Well, let us take a look at the Roman Province of Hispania Tarraconensis, whose capital was Tarraco (now Tarragona, in Catalunya):



Rabid Catalan secessionists sometimes remind me of rabid russophobic Ukrainian nationalists. There is a major difference, however. Kiev was one of the cradles of the Medieval Rus and Ukrainian nationalists call Russians Muscovites. Moscow stole the name "Rus" to call itself "Russia", but Ukrainians never forgot it. However, Castillians stole the name "Spain" from the Romans, and the Catalans forgot it.

Post: #73

One of the issues I don't get at all is that many of the Catalan secessionists are deeply on the left side, believing on the EU project with deep fervor with the loss of sovereignty that it entails with, naturally, the construction of a kind of federal Europe as designed and praised by disgusting individuals such as Guy Verhofstadt. That is for European leftists, their end goal and endgame.

Then why the hell would they secede from Spain just for, according to their project, join up in the same area later on under a different flag? This is not a nationalist project, this secession comes from two fronts: Those who don't care and do it out of pride without oversight and those who do it with oversight but with hidden, unclear motives. The latter has already got an office in the deeper layers of hell. I don't know how true it is so take it with a grain of salt, but some of the activists seem to be on the payroll of Mr Schwartz György.

Post: #74

(10-27-2017 04:51 PM)Volk Wrote:  Than why the hell would they secede from Spain just for, according to their project, join up in the same area with a different project?

Why did the County of Portugal secede from the Kingdom of Leon in 1128 if it would still be under the Pope's rule?

Post: #75

(10-27-2017 04:18 PM)Arado Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 03:03 PM)911 Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 02:44 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 02:33 PM)Arado Wrote:  Spain hasn't been willing to negotiate in good faith on the question of Catalan's subsidizing the Spanish federal budget

People forgot the 1992 Summer Olympics. Who subsidized whom back then?

Not just the Olympics, but decades of the Spanish government favoring the Barcelona region as an industrial center. This is not quite like in Italy, where the north has been an industrial and commercial powerhouse since the middle ages. Barcelona has been a footnote in Spanish history until last century. When you think of great historic Spanish cities, you think Madrid, Seville, Valencia, Cadiz etc...

That was then, this is now. Catalan is subsidizing Spain and is linguistically different - this is undeniable. This is also a recipe for separatism and resentment given human nature. Is that not a core nationalist impulse? Look at how the EU is taking Spain's side as well.

I still fail to see how a people that want to preserve their separate identity and use their tax money to help themselves rather than others is not nationalism. I don't deny that there are some EU/refugee worshippers and crazy feminists among them, but ultimately they want to preserve their identity and control their destiny. Their desire for refugees is about social preening, not about self hatred towards their own culture.

In the modern "rules based order" where nations don't have to worry about being invaded by others, there is no reason to tie yourself to a nation state that is a net drain on your finances.

Obviously if this was during the 1800's era of European great power competition or pre WW1/WW2 then perhaps Catalan would see the value of linking up with a local power so they wouldn't get steamrolled.

Even so, Spain hasn't been a great power in centuries so I could understand Catalan seeing them as dragging them down.

Catalonia/Barcelona benefited from Spanish economic policies that favored its development as a national industrial center. Barcelona is today a close second to Madrid, but at no point in the history of Spain has it been as prominent. That was my point. Most of the landmarks in Barcelona are modern, not the case in other large Spanish cities.