Post: #26

The insanity has crossed the pond. Guys in the UK, especially football fans, will be familiar with the story of Dale Vince, the chairman of lower league side Forest Green Rovers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Vince

Essentially, he was married and divorced many years ago. He subsequently set up an eco-friendly electricity company, and became a wealthy man. His ex wife, scenting blood, or to be more precise, green coloured bits of paper, then lodged a claim in court for a second bite of the cherry. Initially, this was thrown out, but was appealed, and is now proceeding, with Vince paying the (considerable) costs for both sides!

Post: #27

The "Children, Mothers and Fathers" chapter brought up some very vivid memories for me, especially the parts concerning child support, "winners" and "losers".

Put it this way: Being a "child of divorce" is one fucked up position to be in, especially if you're too young to understand what's going on. It installs a permanent sadness in you, which in turn messes with everything from basic socialization to overall approach/attitude to life.

Deprogramming from that takes a lot of time and meticulous mindfulness.

Post: #28

'So if you're self-employed and get sued, consider shutting down the business and getting a W-2 job. If it pays roughly the same as your reported Schedule C income during the years of the marriage, the plaintiff will have a tough time attacking you for being voluntarily underemployed. "If you're like most child support defendants, you'll keep getting sued periodically until the child turns 21," noted one lawyer. "Do you want to pay forensic accountants to show up at each of those trials? Once you shut down your business these modification hearings can be cut from two days to one hour. Also, most self-employed people work harder than Johnny Paycheck. But until your child turns 21 you'll be working for your plaintiff, not for yourself. So lower your blood pressure with a 40-hour-per-week W-2 job that a divorce judge can understand in two minutes."'

Fuck me sideways. If you have to derail your business just to limit child support or alimony payments that's so fucked up.

Post: #29

(09-30-2017 09:49 AM)monsquid Wrote:  'So if you're self-employed and get sued, consider shutting down the business and getting a W-2 job. If it pays roughly the same as your reported Schedule C income during the years of the marriage, the plaintiff will have a tough time attacking you for being voluntarily underemployed. "If you're like most child support defendants, you'll keep getting sued periodically until the child turns 21," noted one lawyer. "Do you want to pay forensic accountants to show up at each of those trials? Once you shut down your business these modification hearings can be cut from two days to one hour. Also, most self-employed people work harder than Johnny Paycheck. But until your child turns 21 you'll be working for your plaintiff, not for yourself. So lower your blood pressure with a 40-hour-per-week W-2 job that a divorce judge can understand in two minutes."'

Fuck me sideways. If you have to derail your business just to limit child support or alimony payments that's so fucked up.

I understand the concept of"excessive regulations" on a whole new level now. We've been taxed and regulated into extinction, people are not kidding when they say that. More Government = Less Humanity. Higher Ed was better with less government and so was marriage.

Post: #30

(09-29-2017 09:12 AM)Buck Wild Wrote:  

(09-27-2017 05:01 PM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  I never was really into MGTOW, but after reading that site unless you live in Nevada be very careful dealing with women at all...

A desert wasteland known for its brothels, boxing matches and sundry rappers murdered on the Strip is your best shot at preserving dignity & solvency in the event your marriage fails.

Amazing.

I haven't had a chance to read that whole divorce site yet.
Am i missing something?

What makes Nevada so special? Do they not have divorce court there?

Post: #31

(09-30-2017 10:16 AM)azulsombra Wrote:  

(09-29-2017 09:12 AM)Buck Wild Wrote:  

(09-27-2017 05:01 PM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  I never was really into MGTOW, but after reading that site unless you live in Nevada be very careful dealing with women at all...

A desert wasteland known for its brothels, boxing matches and sundry rappers murdered on the Strip is your best shot at preserving dignity & solvency in the event your marriage fails.

Amazing.

I haven't had a chance to read that whole divorce site yet.
Am i missing something?

What makes Nevada so special? Do they not have divorce court there?

From what I understand Nevada is more formula based. This results in simpler and shorter litigation. You pay less to the divorce lawyers as the outcomes are more or less set. They also tend to favor 50/50 vice "primary/secondary" parent arrangement which naturally precedes child support and alimony determination.

Post: #32

Lets remove the male victim mentality for a minute.

Its a good approach to assume that this is entirely the mans fault. This is an attempt not to just play devils advocate, but to illustrate that men are more in control of their destiny's than these stories may have you believe.

Mate selection is the first building block of success. Its an area solely lacking in game/relationship. Doc Love covers it well, and in depth in his books. There are just a small number of books covering the topic. Dating is where you sort this out. Listicle articles on ROK I am afraid will not cut it, if we are just talking about simple appearances and glaring red flags. I am afraid its not that easy. Young men need to study this in depth, to make up for the lack of fathers and strong men their lives. Most divorces happen in my opinion, because the man married the wrong woman, and there were subtle and big signs from the very start he willfully ignored. And this is nuanced and subtle, not as apparent as pink hair or a tattoo.

Self control, leadership and attitude is second. Men need to be better men, in general. To take care of themselves, hold frame in all situations(think Don/Michael Corleone), have self confidence and self control, be humorous, and take care of their wimenz. Health, fashion, fitness, attitude, self confidence, and frame, is all base level stuff that most men these days, totally miss. Let yourself go, lose your temper, act like a dick or a bitch, lose your leadership frame and your girl will start looking. Its just nature, and whose fault is it really.

Cheating; will ruin your life. The whole "married man that cheats" concept espoused here is one of the worst threads in RVF. Lots of ego driven young men will read that, and end up ruining their lives. Try this with girlfriends first to show you how badly it will mess up your life. Almost no woman will be cool with this, billionaires get dumped every day. If you want to be one of these horror stories, start cheating on your wife. My only thing to the guys that do it; just be honest and upfront about it, and see if she stays around. And protect your assets..

--

I'm a firm believer there are a lot of good women out there. And that there are bad women all over the globe, equally in the west, the east, the first world and third world. If you can't deal with society as it is, wouldn't it be wise to ask yourself how you could do better first?

Post: #33

(09-30-2017 02:55 AM)Nordwand Wrote:  The insanity has crossed the pond. Guys in the UK, especially football fans, will be familiar with the story of Dale Vince, the chairman of lower league side Forest Green Rovers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Vince

Essentially, he was married and divorced many years ago. He subsequently set up an eco-friendly electricity company, and became a wealthy man. His ex wife, scenting blood, or to be more precise, green coloured bits of paper, then lodged a claim in court for a second bite of the cherry. Initially, this was thrown out, but was appealed, and is now proceeding, with Vince paying the (considerable) costs for both sides!

Please think about it twice before you Google is ex-wife! Eye Bleach ain't enough for that

Post: #34

Reading things like this makes you realize that the future for men will probably be some Christiano Ronaldo like situation where he has a surrogate have his kids and then dates and bangs chicks on the side. But in 2017 there is NO excuse for a man to not have a SOLID asset protection plan.

Post: #35

(09-30-2017 10:51 AM)Vaun Wrote:  Lets remove the male victim mentality for a minute.

Its a good approach to assume that this is entirely the mans fault. This is an attempt not to just play devils advocate, but to illustrate that men are more in control of their destiny's than these stories may have you believe.

Actually man, the entire situation has nothing to do with "victim mentality."

The current marriage laws violate all human rights and are unjust. There is no justifying why the most productive and hardest working members of society should fear the most from marriage and procreation.

Adultery is rewarded, as is freeloading. And if you're male then the presumption of childcare is stacked against you, with women getting custody well over 80% of the time. Child-support is PRE-TAX income as well. Read the damn case studies, in each one child support reduces the father to poverty level.

Meanwhile, as suckers like you and me struggle to find a "good woman," we've got welfare queens and baby daddies popping out 3-4 kids a whack per woman, paid for by your taxes. We see the results as the White population shrinks and the non-Whites populate the world with bastards, over 50% of children today born out of wedlock.

The entire system is madness and doomed to extinction unless it is fixed within a decade. Finding a "right woman" is nothing more than playing a fiddle while Rome burns. Even if you get lucky enough to get one, it doesn't change jack shit that the entire country is dying and heading for hell.

Post: #36

(09-29-2017 08:45 AM)Buck Wild Wrote:  This is the site we've been waiting for. For too long, the discussion on divorce in the manosphere has centered around anecdata, horror stories, urban legends and high-level statistics. It's long past time someone knowledgeable put in the work to do actual analysis based on case studies, interviews, relevant case law, economic analysis of child support guidelines, trends in the law, the appeals system & actionable advice on how to prepare---all on a state-by-state basis.

Will hit his tip jar if he has one---we all should.

EDIT:
I just assumed the proprietor of the site was a man...but it's a group of youngish, decently attractive women and a dorky electrical engineer with kids





Good on them!

It's very encouraging that women were motivated to create this site. It would be nice if instead of gender wars we could come together and agree to create happy marriage laws.

Post: #37

AMEN Samseau.

Post: #38

(09-30-2017 07:04 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Meanwhile, as suckers like you and me struggle to find a "good woman," we've got welfare queens and baby daddies popping out 3-4 kids a whack per woman, paid for by your taxes. We see the results as the White population shrinks and the non-Whites populate the world with bastards, over 50% of children today born out of wedlock.

Two things that the ancients believed would destroy civilisations are:

1. The breaking of oaths (especially blood covenants)

2. Bastardry - children born outside covenants between families

From my perspective, children being made retro-actif bastards when their mothers break the marriage oath is by far the most damaging. It seems to be better to be born a bastard than to be made one.

You can see this especially in the industrial graveyards in the US and UK which have become matriarchal, polyandrous communities which are sustained by worker drone taxes and a rotation of sperm donors.

Post: #39

(09-30-2017 07:04 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Meanwhile, as suckers like you and me struggle to find a "good woman," we've got welfare queens and baby daddies popping out 3-4 kids a whack per woman, paid for by your taxes. We see the results as the White population shrinks and the non-Whites populate the world with bastards, over 50% of children today born out of wedlock.

The entire system is madness and doomed to extinction unless it is fixed within a decade. Finding a "right woman" is nothing more than playing a fiddle while Rome burns. Even if you get lucky enough to get one, it doesn't change jack shit that the entire country is dying and heading for hell.

They have to try to find a "good woman", they have no choice but they should go back to the churches or other groups which at least feign the importance of marriage and children.

Believe me, I have my MGTOW moments when I am tempted to wash my hands of women because if late Empire caesars couldn't bribe the debauched, spoiled women of the Roman gens to have children to address the demographic challenge of slaves, freedmen and barbarians; what can we do in the financial-democracies where women make up half of the voter base and their true love is Coin?

Even if all the family and nation eroding laws were reversed by men in some sort of democratic, co-ordinated effort, this would be pyrrhic at best without young women leaving the work force to become productive mothers. CEOs would have to be made to pay the married man's allowance to the husband or at least to the wife at home. Indebted states under the boot of usury would have to forego a significant share of the tax base just to pay the interest.

I have heard it said that European women now need to have 12 children each to reverse demographic replacement after the boomers created a land of demographic famine in lands of plenty. This has naturally attracted those of reproductive abundance from the lands of relative famine.

Post: #40

Reading Samseau's perspective and that of those who disagree with Samseau is of real benefit to me. I can't pick a side presently because I see all of these arguments having merit well worth considering and the debate as a whole is highly educational for me. The discussion furthers my knowledge and interest in the subject.

I'd like to encourage more of this conversation. This sort of discussion might not change the minds of those who already have an established opinion on the topic, but they are informative and provide value to those reading.

Post: #41

I read the 'history of the divorce,' as the site that Roosh posted recounts it. Family courts, as they sit today, are a clear case of 19th amendment vote pandering through emotive reasoning. Federal and state legislative branches have sold out men's rights to protect women from anecdotal boogiemen and removing all fault from divorces. In my experience most men and even a lot women agree that family court practices are broken in this country. However, women feel they can't afford to lose the protections afforded to them. They say "what if he is abusive and I can't find evidence to initiate a divorce" or "what if he waits until I'm old them divorce's me for no reason." I point out that the purpose of fault divorces is to create a incentive to stay married and to pick your marriage partner carefully. The anecdotal cases are what fault divorces protect women against, but they see not keeping the house and money, no matter what, as a loss.

There should be a "What if Divorce Was Illegal?" satirical article to drive this point home. Bring back fault only divorces where court favors the wishes of person who wished to stay married and make child custody 50/50 only exception is violent crime/addiction convictions(for both parents). People would either have to work through issues to stay married(sorry hamsters) or both would face equal hardships.

Post: #42

(09-30-2017 09:49 AM)monsquid Wrote:  'So if you're self-employed and get sued, consider shutting down the business and getting a W-2 job. If it pays roughly the same as your reported Schedule C income during the years of the marriage, the plaintiff will have a tough time attacking you for being voluntarily underemployed. "If you're like most child support defendants, you'll keep getting sued periodically until the child turns 21," noted one lawyer. "Do you want to pay forensic accountants to show up at each of those trials? Once you shut down your business these modification hearings can be cut from two days to one hour. Also, most self-employed people work harder than Johnny Paycheck. But until your child turns 21 you'll be working for your plaintiff, not for yourself. So lower your blood pressure with a 40-hour-per-week W-2 job that a divorce judge can understand in two minutes."'

Fuck me sideways. If you have to derail your business just to limit child support or alimony payments that's so fucked up.

It's actually worse than that. He's saying get a job paying similar money (meaning the payments are the same) because the lawyers/accountants you're forced to pay for so frequently (to screw yourself) will be so expensive.

Post: #43

(09-30-2017 10:51 AM)Vaun Wrote:  Mate selection is the first building block of success. Its an area solely lacking in game/relationship. Doc Love covers it well, and in depth in his books. There are just a small number of books covering the topic. Dating is where you sort this out. Listicle articles on ROK I am afraid will not cut it, if we are just talking about simple appearances and glaring red flags. I am afraid its not that easy. Young men need to study this in depth, to make up for the lack of fathers and strong men their lives. Most divorces happen in my opinion, because the man married the wrong woman, and there were subtle and big signs from the very start he willfully ignored. And this is nuanced and subtle, not as apparent as pink hair or a tattoo.

What books are you referring to?

Post: #44

(10-01-2017 05:54 PM)Conquerer7 Wrote:  

(09-30-2017 10:51 AM)Vaun Wrote:  Mate selection is the first building block of success. Its an area solely lacking in game/relationship. Doc Love covers it well, and in depth in his books. There are just a small number of books covering the topic. Dating is where you sort this out. Listicle articles on ROK I am afraid will not cut it, if we are just talking about simple appearances and glaring red flags. I am afraid its not that easy. Young men need to study this in depth, to make up for the lack of fathers and strong men their lives. Most divorces happen in my opinion, because the man married the wrong woman, and there were subtle and big signs from the very start he willfully ignored. And this is nuanced and subtle, not as apparent as pink hair or a tattoo.

What books are you referring to?

http://www.returnofkings.com/2390/the-fa...is-secrets

Post: #45

I dated a foreign woman I truly loved. Her citizenship meant she couldn't travel without lots of visa applications (which always got rejected anyway).

The only way for her to get a western passport was to marry one. I told her to find another guy to marry her because I have too much to lose. She did. If she divorces him and comes back to me I'll lose respect for her. If she doesn't I lose her anyway.

I know many westerners here are dating foreign women. What is the best strategy to deal with this problem? Eventually you HAVE to legally marry for her to get residency.

Post: #46

Have you guys seen the documentary "Divorce Corp" from 2014? You can see the trailer on YouTube, it's an eye opener as to how bad it has gotten. I would post a link but I don't want to get in trouble.

More money flows through the family courts, and into the hands of courthouse insiders, than in all other court systems in America combined.

Post: #47

(09-30-2017 07:04 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-30-2017 10:51 AM)Vaun Wrote:  Lets remove the male victim mentality for a minute.

Its a good approach to assume that this is entirely the mans fault. This is an attempt not to just play devils advocate, but to illustrate that men are more in control of their destiny's than these stories may have you believe.

Actually man, the entire situation has nothing to do with "victim mentality."

The current marriage laws violate all human rights and are unjust. There is no justifying why the most productive and hardest working members of society should fear the most from marriage and procreation.

Great, we have stated the obvious. Again. So then whats next? Work to change and improve society? Or kick a can down the road and drop out of it? Or hedonistically exist within it, with no morals, purpose or contribution other than taxes. I am afraid the last two are not options for most men. The Paul Elam narrative is changing; its time for men to constructively shape society, inside of bailing out of it.

Post: #48

(10-09-2017 08:34 AM)Vaun Wrote:  

(09-30-2017 07:04 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-30-2017 10:51 AM)Vaun Wrote:  Lets remove the male victim mentality for a minute.

Its a good approach to assume that this is entirely the mans fault. This is an attempt not to just play devils advocate, but to illustrate that men are more in control of their destiny's than these stories may have you believe.

Actually man, the entire situation has nothing to do with "victim mentality."

The current marriage laws violate all human rights and are unjust. There is no justifying why the most productive and hardest working members of society should fear the most from marriage and procreation.

Great, we have stated the obvious. Again. So then whats next? Work to change and improve society?

Have you failed to notice I am one of the most politically active members on this board?

Here are some things that would address the broken family model we have right now, in the fewest possible moves:

- There must be punishments for adultery or else marriage is a sham.
- There must be a cheaper court process or else no one but the rich can afford the legal privileges offered by marriage.
- There must be more jury trials and less bench rulings for difficult cases.
- Child Care expenses within marriages should get much higher deductibles.
- Child support (for divorced couples) also needs to be tax deductible, but not as high tax deductions for married.
- Women who have children out of wedlock, with no man to pay their child support, should be put on mandatory birth control.

Post: #49

(10-09-2017 10:50 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Have you failed to notice I am one of the most politically active members on this board?

Here are some things that would address the broken family model we have right now, in the fewest possible moves:

- There must be punishments for adultery or else marriage is a sham.

(10-09-2017 10:50 AM)Samseau Wrote:  - There must be a cheaper court process or else no one but the rich can afford the legal privileges offered by marriage.

(10-09-2017 10:50 AM)Samseau Wrote:  - There must be more jury trials and less bench rulings for difficult cases.

(10-09-2017 10:50 AM)Samseau Wrote:  - Child Care expenses within marriages should get much higher deductibles.

(10-09-2017 10:50 AM)Samseau Wrote:  - Child support (for divorced couples) also needs to be tax deductible, but not as high tax deductions for married.

(10-09-2017 10:50 AM)Samseau Wrote:  - Women who have children out of wedlock, with no man to pay their child support, should be put on mandatory birth control.

Post: #50

I think what we have here is creeping cultural rot. You can't expect legal reform if culture has devolved to the point where people think the status quo is OK.

The common thread is young men and women have been slow to grow up, preferring to skate through life day-to-day with a "shit happens" mentality. And along the way, the PC brigade discourages society from "judging" anyone who lives this way. That is a recipe for broken homes, domestic violence, and further cultural rot in the next generation.