Post: #26

Chavo

None of those things you stated are legitimate reasons for Americans to be saddled with Puerto Rico's fucking problems.

Their people being the source of those problems.

It's "closer"?

That's a reason? Don't make me laugh.

Their citizens can serve in the Armed Forces? So what? Non citizens can also. That's also a ridiculous "reason".

They have a large population so they should be made a state?

I've seen some of your other posts today and you aren't earning yourself any respect with these kinds of comments.

Post: #27

We should make all our territories states, even the empty ones, just put one guy on each and have them vote yes.

Post: #28

PR has special tax status when it comes to federal taxes. They pay into social security and Medicare, but do not pay federal income tax. I assume this would change if they became a state...I'm surprised anyone would want to vote for that.

Post: #29

Post: #30

How you going to fit 51 stars on the flag?

Post: #31

(06-13-2017 05:40 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  How you going to fit 51 stars on the flag?

Not to be a cunt T & A Man, but your question exhibits exactly what Australia doesn't get about the United States of America.

A: That's an American problem. Photoshop works.

Post: #32

(06-13-2017 05:40 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  How you going to fit 51 stars on the flag?

3 rows of 9 = 27
3 rows of 8 = 24

Post: #33

Surely for the US to grant statehood to a territory, there must be some benefit to the US. So.... what's in it for USA?

Post: #34

The flag industry will have a field day updating the star pattern.

Post: #35

(06-13-2017 12:32 AM)frozen-ace Wrote:  PR has special tax status when it comes to federal taxes. They pay into social security and Medicare, but do not pay federal income tax. I assume this would change if they became a state...I'm surprised anyone would want to vote for that.

Having looked into this in depth, I think I can give you an answer. The reality is that most of PR's inhabitants would not be paying Federal income taxes if they joined as a state.

The Island has only 40% labour participation rate. That is not a typo. 3/5 people are not working in PR. Of those who do work, some will no doubt be below the Federal income threshold.

Hence you have a perverse incentive where more than 60% of the population can foist Federal income taxes on the actual working people in PR by voting to join as a state.

Another shocking statistic is that of a civilian labour force of around 1 million, over a quarter (over 250,000) work for either the US Federal or PR Territorial Government. Government is the largest employer in PR by a wide margin.

Attempts to collect higher local taxes have been entirely ineffective.

The island has been bleeding young people for years. They are recognized as US citizens and therefore have mobility rights under the US Constitution. I'd move the hell out of there if I had the opportunity to as well.

Congress would be stark raving mad to allow PR in as a State. The first thing PR would do is bring proceedings as an insolvent State under the US Bankruptcy Code. That is a completely perverse reason for wanting to join a country. Can't they come up with something better than the need to shed debt?

The political leanings of the Island's population, which include around 2 million plus of people in voting age, would have significant effects on the House, Senate and the electoral college. Not to beat up on Hispanics, it is simply a fact that Americans of Hispanic descent vote overwhelmingly in favour of big government and Democrats (ever notice that when Democrats don't win an election they want to: 1) change all the rules; and 2) attack the legitimacy of the victors?).

I'd advocate all my Southern neighbours to write their Congress Rep. and Senators to urge them not to open this trap door.

I'm just a Canadian with an outside opinion, of course, but that may make me a tad more objective.

Post: #36

Before one judges me as a PR apologist, I want to first state unequivocally that I whole heartedly agree with the points laid out by Fisto and the article mentioned by Tokyo Joe.

Danny Alberta in particular laid out some very relevant facts about Puerto Rico.

Also, I am in strong favor of independence for Puerto Rico, executed responsibly and amicably, while retaining strong ties to USA.

That being said, this "fuck them" attitude is rather ignorant. Puerto Rico and the USA did not magically appear in this situation yesterday - Surprise surprise. It takes two to tango. Some history and context is in order:

1. Puerto Rico never, at any point, voluntarily joined the United States of America. There is little to no intrinsic national and cultural heritage to the US.

2. Puerto Rico would have GLADLY gotten independence had they been able to do so, right up until the 1950s. Let me say that again: most Puerto Ricans wanted to leave the USA, but the USA would not let them. So frankly now that sentiment has reversed, this "kick em out!" rhetoric is rather hallow and utterly meaningless.

3. In response to a growing nationalist movement, which culminated in an armed March on Congress and an the attempted assasination of Eisenhower, the USA's response was to severely and brutally suppress the Puerto Rican national movement, and placate the Puerto Ricans by dumping massive amounts of welfare on the Island (in addition to testing Agent Orange on the island, but that's a story for another day...). This created a ridiculous welfare state that exists today. The USA was scared shitless of another Cuba emerging, and did not let Puerto Rico become more independant and basically bribed the people into submission. Think of the mindset this cultivates over 3 generations now. Related...

4. Since it's existence, Puerto Rico has been crushed by bullshit federal regulation designed to protect American business interests. The Jones act requires any vessel inbound or outbound from Puerto Rico to stop on a mainland port first. That immediately makes foreign imports to Puerto Rico more expensive, as well as kills a huge source of revenue from transit cargo ships. This alone would have a huge positive impact on PRs economy. Why does it still exist? Bullshit Business lobbyists are preventing it from doing so. Some estimates are that PR loses BILLIONS because of this.
Another quick example is sugar. Puerto Rico used to be a mega sugar producer. Now they make hardly any. Why? Sugar subsidies to mainland farmers. Aside from the jobs lost, the industrial technical knowledge, workmanship, and work culture associated with this labor intensive industry is gone.
Finally on this point, and this is something that all RVF should agree with, congress MANDATED Puerto Rico raise it's minimum wage to the federal level. Puerto Rico never had an economy as robust or rich as the mainland, so now the minimum wage being too high just killed a lot of jobs, or simply grew the informal economy. Puerto Rico never wanted any of this.

Before we talk about how "screwed up" Puerto Rico/Puerto Ricans are, let's take an honest look at what is heavily contributing to it: Never even having a fighting chance.

One could argue that the USA made up for it by giving welfare, benefits etc... but that only created the dependency mindset you see today.

5. Relative to Latin and Central America, Puerto Rico has one of the highest per capita GDPs, even if you remove federal/state employment. Not saying it's some economic paradise, but it's certainly got potential.

6. The admittedly over-funded University system is probably one of the best in Latin/Central America, and even competitive with USA universities. USA recruiters are now flocking into PR to scoop up teachers, doctors etc... since they know they can higher them cheap. This only drains the PR talent and tax base and lowers wages in the US. Lose Lose.

7. The Puerto Rican economy is bad, for sure, but those stats do not tell the full story. There is a very large informal economy that exists, and while it's not accounted for, people still do things and work in PR, they just don't give their slice to the Man, since they know the gov is corrupt. Puerto Ricans (in general) are absolute suckers for materialistic Bullshit they see in Malls and Walmart. It's disgusting and sad, but my point is that these places in Puerto Rico are packed and doing record profit, so the money must be coming from somewhere.

7. Puerto Rico still has a strong, patriarchal and traditional culture (Abortion is illegal and so is gay marriage in PR). There is "poverty" in the statistical sense, but the standard of living for people is really not so bad, since family structure and community still exists and people take care of each other. It's sad to see fast food chains becoming so popular there, but in the rural areas people seem incredibly fit and simply don't age.

- Alright I'm kind of droning on at this point, but hopefully this serves to slightly educate people that this awful situation is at least substantially the making of the US. Again, I am NOT excusing Puerto Rican poor decision making, nor am I out to vicitimize them. There are real and easy things that the USA could do to re-invigorate the Puerto Rican economy that would bring Puerto Ricans back to Puerto Rico and help them get out of debt. I suspect that won't happen, because at this point corporations are LOVING all the new cheap "American" labor that Puerto Rico provides.

Puerto Rico is a great place worth looking into for relocation, despite the doomsday news, it's one of the nicest places I've ever been to. Particularly if you are interested in developing agriculture, there is tremendous opportunity there.

PS: @BostonBMW you are incorrect about the PR Flag. It's a historically Spanish derived flag. If you look at the flags of Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Catalonia, they all have the same design.

*** FIN ***

Post: #37

I know Puerto Rico pretty well. A lot of resentful people expecting handouts in life. The less the US has to do with this island, the better.

(06-13-2017 01:10 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  7. Puerto Rico still has a strong, patriarchal and traditional culture

Puerto Rico is a culture of dependency. Nothing admirable about it. The place has little in common with American values.

Curious fact: Puerto Rico has its own Olympic team. How convenient.

Post: #38

(06-13-2017 01:28 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  I know Puerto Rico pretty well. A lot of resentful people expecting handouts in life. The less the US has to do with this island, the better.

(06-13-2017 01:10 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  7. Puerto Rico still has a strong, patriarchal and traditional culture

Puerto Rico is a culture of dependency. Nothing admirable about it. The place has little in common with American values.

Curious fact: Puerto Rico has its own Olympic team. How convenient.

Aside from he said she said arguments, where we simply disagree on your opinion on how the people are, do you have anything substantive to say on the other points concerning the history and context of the current situation? How about some sort of practical solution? How would you actually get the US to have less to do with PR? Realistically speaking of course. If you were just venting I guess that's fine too.

And yes PR does have it's own Olympic team. So did Hong Kong under the British and now under China. All territories do. What is your point?

EDIT: one of the main points of my post was exactly that Puerto Rico different values than USA, so you're preaching to the choir, except that I argue that Puerto Rico, the real Puerto Rico (not NewYoricans) have a strong traditional and patriarchal culture.

Post: #39

(06-13-2017 09:06 AM)Horus Wrote:  Surely for the US to grant statehood to a territory, there must be some benefit to the US. So.... what's in it for USA?

Nothing. But the democrats get another 3 million voters, a congressman and 2 senators.

Post: #40

(06-13-2017 01:51 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 09:06 AM)Horus Wrote:  Surely for the US to grant statehood to a territory, there must be some benefit to the US. So.... what's in it for USA?

Nothing. But the democrats get another 3 million voters, a congressman and 2 senators.

We used to get lots of soldiers from Puerto Rico. Huge influx in 20th century. 61k PRs served in Korea alone.

I'm not too sure if that tradition is still carrying.

Puerto Rico should remain a territory. A bunch of money lenders need to take a loss on all those bad loans provided, not the tax payers by way of a state bailout.

Post: #41

Robert High Hawk,

To me all of your points seem like "but it's not our fault".

I remain completely unpersuaded by the perpetual victimhood excuse.

The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve.

Post: #42

(06-13-2017 01:47 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  Aside from he said she said arguments, where we simply disagree on your opinion on how the people are

Is it debatable that Puerto Ricans, as a whole, have a latin 'mañana' culture and tend to lack the work ethic of the mainland, have lower education attainments and have higher levels of government dependency? They like having citizenship and the ability to work anywhere in the US, but they don't have the same responsibilities as other American citizens (as has been outlined by others above). It's a sweet deal for them. The fact that they've voted to maintain the status quo all these years points towards that interpretation.

Quote:How would you actually get the US to have less to do with PR?

Is there some political reason why you see statehood and the commonwealth status quo as feasible but exclude independence? Independence for Puerto Rico could be a policy position of the United States. The steps to achieve that are political, nothing more. And if doing so is a political non-starter at the moment, then should we automatically embrace statehood?

Quote:And yes PR does have its own Olympic team. So did Hong Kong under the British and now under China. All territories do. What is your point?

Two relevant points here:

1. Puerto Ricans, despite being part of the United States, have divided loyalties. They see themselves first as Puerto Ricans, only later as Americans. By contrast, Americans from the mainland see themselves first as Americans rather than identifying principally with their state. This is similar to what we see with naturalized immigrants who root for their home countries when they play against the US.

2. Puerto Ricans want to get the advantages of association with the US without the disadvantages. Having your own Olympic team obviously falls in this category.

By the way, while the island is ostensibly bilingual, levels of proficiency in English are low in reality. In many ways, Puerto Rico is more similar to the rest of Latin American than the mainland US.

Post: #43

(06-13-2017 03:08 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 01:47 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  Aside from he said she said arguments, where we simply disagree on your opinion on how the people are

Is it debatable that Puerto Ricans, as a whole, have a latin 'mañana' culture and tend to lack the work ethic of the mainland, have lower education attainments and have higher levels of government dependency? They like having citizenship and the ability to work anywhere in the US, but they don't have the same responsibilities as other American citizens (as has been outlined by others above). It's a sweet deal for them. The fact that they've voted to maintain the status quo all these years points towards that interpretation.

Quote:How would you actually get the US to have less to do with PR?

Is there some political reason why you see statehood and the commonwealth status quo as feasible but exclude independence? Independence for Puerto Rico could be a policy position of the United States. The steps to achieve that are political, nothing more. And if doing so is a political non-starter at the moment, then should we automatically embrace statehood?

Quote:And yes PR does have its own Olympic team. So did Hong Kong under the British and now under China. All territories do. What is your point?

Two relevant points here:

1. Puerto Ricans, despite being part of the United States, have divided loyalties. They see themselves first as Puerto Ricans, only later as Americans. By contrast, Americans from the mainland see themselves first as Americans rather than identifying principally with their state. This is similar to what we see with naturalized immigrants who root for their home countries when they play against the US.

2. Puerto Ricans want to get the advantages of association with the US without the disadvantages. Having your own Olympic team obviously falls in this category.

By the way, while the island is ostensibly bilingual, levels of proficiency in English are low in reality. In many ways, Puerto Rico is more similar to the rest of Latin American than the mainland US.

I clearly stated I am pro independence in my post. You are projecting that I am pro-statehood for whatever reason. We probably agree on more than you think.

Also, I never said there was no 'mañana' culture in Puerto Rico. Nor did I ever say that it economically comparable, or even educationally comparable, only that the college system was. I will correct that statement to say that SOME PR colleges are comparible to those in the USA.

Again, you are projecting a view point on me that simply doesn't exist. The lauditory remarks I made for Puerto Rico were in comparison to Latin and Central America, merely to point out that relatively speaking, it's not a total basket case. Furthermore, the regulatory hamstrings put on on Puerto Rico only exacerbate the problem.

If you want to have a constructive dialogue as to how to get Puerto Rico independent, I'm all for it. I think it starts with removing the outright predatory and nonsensical restrictions on Puerto Rico's economy. Then the bondholders who made risky loans to a shitty and corrupt Puerto Rican government, only because they knew they could lobby congress to prevent Puerto Rico from defaulting, can go fuck themselves. Then you could reduce the minimum wage.

Puerto Rico itself could then impose taxes on imports to invigorate it's own economy. I think it's viable and the best Puerto Ricans are those who have a strong national identity and pride in their Island, as well a cultural heritage that is worth preserving. That's why I favor independence for Puerto Rico.

Post: #44

(06-13-2017 02:40 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Robert High Hawk,

To me all of your points seem like "but it's not our fault".

I remain completely unpersuaded by the perpetual victimhood excuse.

The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve.

I wrote:

"I am NOT excusing Puerto Rican poor decision making, nor am I out to vicitimize them"

Not sure what else to say, but I'll make it perfectly clear: The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making. The government management of Puerto Rico is retarded, and the people who elected them to power are perhaps deliberately ignorant.

You seem to be projecting some view point I simply don't have. Where did I say that Puerto Ricans don't deserve the govt or leaders they have now? Where did I say that they are victims?

I said is there is a history of economic suppression by predatory regulations that have handicapped Puerto Rico's economic potential.

If you disagree that that was never the case, and that Jones Act and forced high minimum wage have not adversely affected the economy and contributed to it's current state, please expand on that - and I mean that sincerely as I am curious to learn the different arguments on this topic.

"The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve" - too bad that was not applied in the first half of the last century where they people wanted independence. It's just strange that was not valid then, yet there's no productive and realistic discussion about what to do about the situation now.

Post: #45

Robert high Hawk, I appreciate your points.

One thing I think you misunderstand is that I am by no means suggesting the United States should force independence on PR. That would be more disastrous than giving them state-hood at this point. PR is currently receiving US Federal assistance to the tune of $20B in order to help with its debt default and other social spending. The loss of the US dollar alone as the currency would be catastrophic for what remains of the island's struggling economy.

Moreover, the people of PR are recognized as US citizens and therefore have certain rights, including mobility rights to the mainland. Disenfranchising them of those rights would require both the Untied States and PR to agree in a referendum (where hopefully more than 1/3 of the people show up to vote). I doubt the US could do so of its own volition, even by an act of Congress.

PR is a US Territory. It has been for a long time. It should remain so at this point. My arguments against admission to the Union as a state don't require a change to that status quo. Assuming PR can clean up its mess a bit (with no small help from the United States), it may qualify for statehood one day. It may even decide to strike out on its own. But it is capable of neither right now.

Again, just a Canadian with an outside opinion.

Post: #46

It was a mistake to keep Puerto Rico in the 1950's as a territory and we should cut them loose with bribes even if necessary.

Post: #47

I said it earlier today and I'll say it again, the USA will be losing states before it gains any. 51 just sounds stupid, anyway.

Tito Puente was American, which means they're basically worthless anyway. Ok, Roberto Alomar. (-:

Post: #48

(06-13-2017 03:42 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making.

No. It's cultural. And politics is downstream of culture.

(06-13-2017 01:10 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  Also, I am in strong favor of independence for Puerto Rico, executed responsibly and amicably, while retaining strong ties to USA.

Why? And what specifically do you have in mind? Is this of some value to the US?

Post: #49

Sounds like a great way to:

1. Drastically accelerate the coming voting demographic shift towards eternal liberal hegemony in politics.
2. Drastically accelerate the 3rd world transition process of Florida. This place already feels like a foreign country. I'm sure somehow this will encourage more of them to come here.

Don't want them or their financial problems. Plus it could easily be the finishing strike for conservatives/Republicans in this country.

Post: #50

(06-13-2017 02:05 PM)TheOllam Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 01:51 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 09:06 AM)Horus Wrote:  Surely for the US to grant statehood to a territory, there must be some benefit to the US. So.... what's in it for USA?

Nothing. But the democrats get another 3 million voters, a congressman and 2 senators.

We used to get lots of soldiers from Puerto Rico. Huge influx in 20th century. 61k PRs served in Korea alone.

I'm not too sure if that tradition is still carrying.

Puerto Rico should remain a territory. A bunch of money lenders need to take a loss on all those bad loans provided, not the tax payers by way of a state bailout.

Puerto Ricans do contribute in outsized proportions to the US military, as far as I know. In Korea in particular they were heavily volunteered, and the Puerto Rican 65th Regiment covered the retreat of the Marines from the Chosin Resevior. That particular Regiment earned fully half of all the distinguished service crosses for the entire division during the Korean war for their actions covering the Marines retreat. In Korea they participated (and had more casualties) proportionally more than many US states.