Post: #251

The main lesson from this whole incident. Don't fly United.

Post: #252

(04-12-2017 04:22 PM)Parzival Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 04:15 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  My guess is this overbooking & get off now thing is rather common in America specifically, listening to the other comments about how many times its happened to them. Maybe when you see a wrong being done day in day out your whole life, you start to falsely see it as normal behaviour. I don't think I've ever been asked to get off a flight in my whole life, or heard of anyone else I know being asked to do so. Must be one of Americans retarded things, like tipping and using ancient measurements.

Quote:https://www.welt.de/finanzen/article1636...eiten.html

For the German airline, some 2.8 million passengers would not arrive as planned on a yearly basis - with around 62 million flights. Nevertheless, no space should be unnecessarily empty. Only 0.04 percent of all passengers had to withdraw from a flight after an overbooking in 2016

In absolute terms, there are still around 22,000 passengers. Violently they had to be taken out of the machine.

Wonder what the numbers are in the US. Are americans aware of the concept of de-escalation?

Even the article by Die Welt is utter tripe and bullshit.

99,9% of passengers don't get thrown out of the airplane, they simply are not allowed to enter the plane due to overbooking. First come first serve is the rule. Priority bookings and higher class is allowed to go first, economy last - if you happen to be among them, bad luck. At worst you are pissed off, but that is life - people would be much more pissed off if they were already sitting down and then had to leave.

Post: #253

(04-12-2017 05:04 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  99,9% of passengers don't get thrown out of the airplane, they simply are not allowed to enter the plane due to overbooking. First come first serve is the rule. Priority bookings and higher class is allowed to go first, economy last - if you happen to be among them, bad luck. At worst you are pissed off, but that is life - people would be much more pissed off if they were already sitting down and then had to leave.

This is the thing.

I've never, ever seen someone bumped from the cabin. This is always handled at the gate, well before they begin boarding.

Bumping passengers from the aircraft, especially for deadheading employees, is outrageous. It's not just a disrespectful waste of that passenger's time, it's a disrespectful waste of every passenger's time. The boarding began at a specific time in order to get the aircraft off the ground at a specific time, and it's now time to leave Chicago, not to re-litigate the passenger roster, which should have been settled an hour ago.

It's unfortunate for the employees, but the airline made a mistake and they can take a van. It seems like the worst of the union mentality, as if United employees genuinely believe that their mission is to serve the transportation needs of United employees over the transportation needs of United customers.

Post: #254

(04-12-2017 03:03 PM)Jetset Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 02:02 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  I guess I don't get the fetish to zealously defer to authority I've seen from some posters in this thread.

For clarity, I don't think there's anything OK about what they did.

The bottom line, though, is that it's not even about "authority". It's simply not my plane. If the airline's employees decide that I need to get off the airline's plane, I might defend my conduct, but I'm not going to push it to the point that the police are brought in. That's just dipshit conduct, not unlike if I had a hissy fit and made the staff get the police involved because I was asked to leave a bar/club. If somebody wants to turn a civil dispute into a criminal altercation, that's not my problem, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on how to prioritize life.

I might not agree with Last Parade in principle, but those two points I quoted are completely correct. In general, the scope of your expectation when you buy a ticket for something and they can't/don't deliver is to get the full price of the ticket back. The idea that you have an unlimited entitlement to play dead in the seat and obstinately demand to be served until they hit some arbitrarily large number that makes you happy is ridiculous.

They were both wrong. The fact that he was wrong too, though, is irrelevant, because even if his conduct had been immaculate, United's handling of this would still be unacceptable - and as a frequent passenger, I'm glad his public temper tantrum brought attention to it.

When you're buying a ticket, it's a little more than say buying a video camera or a phone in a store or something, where your reasonable expectation might ´be to get the price of the item back. What you're buying with a transportation ticket is also the right to get transported from A to B and thus be able to plan your... well, life. Maybe there's an important event going to happen on the other end of your flight that you cannot miss, no matter how much the airline tells you "We're really sorry but fuck off"

Again, the place I'm renting right now also does not belong to me, but my landlord has fuck all rights to kick me out just on ownership rights alone. I am supposed to care for his property and not needlessly damage it, true, but as long as I treat it well we have agreed that he give me the right to rent and live here and I have to pay him for that .... wait for it .... RIGHT. We both have agreed to certain obligations and rights. An airline does that too, to a smaller extent. All contracts are an exchange of rights and obligations.

Post: #255

(04-12-2017 05:13 PM)I DIDNT KILL MY WIFE Wrote:  When you're buying a ticket, it's a little more than say buying a video camera or a phone in a store or something, where your reasonable expectation might ´be to get the price of the item back. What you're buying with a transportation ticket is also the right to get transported from A to B and thus be able to plan your... well, life. Maybe there's an important event going to happen on the other end of your flight that you cannot miss, no matter how much the airline tells you "We're really sorry but fuck off"

I agree, but there is a reality inherent in transportation that, for any variety of reasons, your plans may not be fulfilled.

In this case, the reason was unacceptably stupid. The flight was not even oversold. They simply failed to plan for their own needs.

However, we're all adults and know full well that plans go wrong. The airline isn't responsible for using their psychic abilities to value the importance of your time at your destination or telepathically warn you to leave enough room in your schedule for delays. I'm sure there's an insurance product out there for that, but personally, I try to schedule transportation on the assumption that I might have to catch the next one. It's saved my bacon at least twice, once on a poorly-serviced route that only has one flight per day and once when I was riding a bus that became involved in a 30-car pileup that took over six hours for the police to clear.

(04-12-2017 05:13 PM)I DIDNT KILL MY WIFE Wrote:  Again, the place I'm renting right now also does not belong to me, but my landlord has fuck all rights to kick me out just on ownership rights alone. I am supposed to care for his property and not needlessly damage it, true, but as long as I treat it well we have agreed that he give me the right to rent and live here and I have to pay him for that .... wait for it .... RIGHT. We both have agreed to certain obligations and rights. An airline does that too, to a smaller extent. All contracts are an exchange of rights and obligations.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but if you look it up, the common law definition of a leasehold does essentially make it your property for most purposes. A lease has a specific meaning, and a plane ticket is not a lease of a seat. More importantly, if they don't transport you, they simply failed to perform. That is all. You can probably sue, but you're definitely not going to succeed in forcing the pilot to fulfill the ticket by screaming like a woman while smartphones record, even if it's a very good scream.

Post: #256

It blows my mind that so many people in this thread have sided with United on this. I'm anti-SJW all day every day, but really?

Did the airline have the legal right to kick passengers off the plane? Technically, yes.

Did they handle this situation properly? Absolutely not. They handled it horrifically.

Obviously the doctor probably didn't handle the situation perfectly either, but the airline is clearly in the wrong. If the airline weren't wrong, this dude wouldn't be set to receive a massive payday.

All of the US airlines (except Southwest) have had such shitty customer service for such a long time...flying on Asian airlines vs US ones is like night and day. Hopefully this incident will change that.

Post: #257

(04-12-2017 05:23 PM)Jetset Wrote:  I don't mean to be pedantic, but if you look it up, the common law definition of a leasehold does essentially make it your property for most purposes. A lease has a specific meaning, and a plane ticket is not a lease of a seat. More importantly, if they don't transport you, they simply failed to perform. That is all. You can probably sue, but you're definitely not going to succeed in forcing the pilot to fulfill the ticket by screaming like a woman while smartphones record, even if it's a very good scream.

This is where the subject of implied terms in contracts comes in. A contract of carriage might not contain a specific clause that says "You are given the right to come onto the airline's private property for the purposes of transport", but there is no way the contract can actually operate without it. How can there possibly be a contract of carriage without it being a necessary, implied term of the contract that the passenger can actually get on the carriage? The contract simply cannot exist without such a term being in there. The right to quiet enjoyment under a lease is such an implied term.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #258

Haven't flown united in years and thrilled about that decision. At one point I was offered a job in Chicago and turned it down specifically to avoid frequenting O'hare.

Post: #259

(04-12-2017 08:38 PM)rungoodinc Wrote:  It blows my mind that so many people in this thread have sided with United on this. I'm anti-SJW all day every day, but really?

Did the airline have the legal right to kick passengers off the plane? Technically, yes.

Did they handle this situation properly? Absolutely not. They handled it horrifically.

Obviously the doctor probably didn't handle the situation perfectly either, but the airline is clearly in the wrong. If the airline weren't wrong, this dude wouldn't be set to receive a massive payday.

All of the US airlines (except Southwest) have had such shitty customer service for such a long time...flying on Asian airlines vs US ones is like night and day. Hopefully this incident will change that.

Agreed. It would be nice to see better service on all the carriers.

Post: #260

My article on this is up:

http://www.returnofkings.com/119155/the-...y-possible

I know many of you guys will disagree (and I may also have to add a postscript about certain issues, such as the overbooking not necessarily being true).

I DO believe United fucked up majorly. But this guy's reaction was so infantile. And, remember, folks, don't sell prescription drugs for gay sex and you'll be able to practice more than one day per week.

Post: #261

^That's a fair and nuanced take...Both parties are at fault here but the airlines actions were definitely more egregious.

Racism has nothing do with anything here. The guy was chosen at random. People making a race issue out of this on either side are both idiots in my book.

The real issue is shitty customer service and business practices from an oligopoly industry which has had little incentive to provide quality service to its customers over the years.

Post: #262

(04-12-2017 09:28 PM)david.garrett84 Wrote:  My article on this is up:

http://www.returnofkings.com/119155/the-...y-possible

I know many of you guys will disagree (and I may also have to add a postscript about certain issues, such as the overbooking not necessarily being true).

I DO believe United fucked up majorly. But this guy's reaction was so infantile. And, remember, folks, don't sell prescription drugs for gay sex and you'll be able to practice more than one day per week.

Nicely done. I disagree with much of it, but the article is well-written and your points are concise.

I do agree the whole thing was a bitch move on the doctor's part. To scream like a woman instead of just saying, "Well... I'm being handed my hat and shown the door. I guess I'm not welcome. Fuck these idiots; I'll go now."

But then again, United shouldn't have ever put him in that position in the first place. The doctor was sitting quietly in the chair that he rightfully purchased. No, he didn't read the 40,000 word contract before clicking "Yes" when he bought his ticket. I've never read that piece of shit either, just as I've never read my cell phone contract or the EULA on the last PC game I downloaded from Steam.

As we've now discovered, the doctor was a fuckup that had previously sold prescription drugs and traded opiates for gay sex. That makes him a pervert and a criminal. It still doesn't change the fact that he was a United customer and they dragged him off of their airplane screaming and bloody because the captain and crew were having a "Big Dick Contest" to show him who was boss. And United won; for about 30 minutes. And then United lost.

I'm just happy that a shitty airline has to grovel before the public and eat a huge pile of shit. I think all of us have been shat upon in the past by United or American or US Air or Continental and there's a bit of justice in this for those of us that have had a very bad travel day due to the airlines treating us like cargo instead of human beings.

But again, man, nice article. It's very well done. Even if I don't agree with some of it, all of your points are certainly valid.

Post: #263

How did he get back on the plane? Vietnamese ninja skills?

Post: #264

Some indications on Twitter and some new sites are that there was some negligent research as to the background of "David Dao," i.e. reporters (especially those from the leftstream--err I mean mainstream--media) conflating "David Dao"'s.

Hence some somewhat conflicting and contradictory information on his age, marital status, sexual orientation, alleged criminal history, etc.

On a sidenote, regardless of David Dao and his background (albeit "Dao" sounds Chinese, not Vietnamese), those of you on this forum should know that being Chinese in ethnicity and Vietnamese in nationality (or vice versa) are not mutually exclusive.

Tsk tsk, I am disappoint.

There is a non-immaterial presence of ethnic Chinese in Vietnam--and for those who have plundered Vietnamese girls, it is well-known that there is a very material number of Vietnamese with sizeable Chinese ancestry from the past generation or two, much less prior to that.

Post: #265

...

Post: #266

(04-12-2017 10:34 PM)Kabal Wrote:  Some indications on Twitter and some new sites are that there was some negligent research as to the background of "David Dao," i.e. reporters (especially those from the leftstream--err I mean mainstream--media) conflating "David Dao"'s.

Hence some somewhat conflicting and contradictory information on his age, marital status, sexual orientation, alleged criminal history, etc.

On a sidenote, regardless of David Dao and his background (albeit "Dao" sounds Chinese, not Vietnamese), those of you on this forum should know that being Chinese in ethnicity and Vietnamese in nationality (or vice versa) are not mutually exclusive.

Tsk tsk, I am disappoint.

There is a non-immaterial presence of ethnic Chinese in Vietnam--and for those who have plundered Vietnamese girls, it is well-known that there is a very material number of Vietnamese with sizeable Chinese ancestry from the past generation or two, much less prior to that.

Cool, so aside from United Airways going into a tailspin for beating the snot out of one of its passengers, we might see some MSM reporters bankrupted for defamation as well.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #267

I worked in the hotel business for almost three years. I am often appalled by bad service when I see it. I also understand that service industry people make mistakes and have to make decisions which may piss off customers.

Here is one positive suggestion. Stop insulting customers by offering them vouchers. Usually these vouchers have an expiration date, often a year from the date of issue. I suspect most of them never get used--a lot like rebates in stores. Instead, if you are going to bump a customer, simply say, "We'll put you on another flight and refund your money." If that isn't enough, offer them a cash payment in addition to the refund. Above all, it gives the customer the choice of still saying, "I will never fly with you again." A voucher forces the customer to fly with the airline again, which is why it's just plain insulting.

What other options were available? United had another flight to Louisville later that day. Was that an option? American also flies in and out of O'Hare. Could they have put him on AA? Could they have taken him over to Chicago Midway and paid for a flight on Southwest? Could they have simply placed him on a Greyhound bus to Louisville?

Airlines overbook because people change their plans and cancel trips. We did it all the time at the hotel. If you don't like airlines overbooking, then fly with Jetblue. It's no accident that Jetblue is consistently the most expensive airline to fly on. This is one reason why.

Post: #268

(04-12-2017 08:38 PM)rungoodinc Wrote:  All of the US airlines (except Southwest) have had such shitty customer service for such a long time...flying on Asian airlines vs US ones is like night and day. Hopefully this incident will change that.

Actually I hear this about US airlines vs. all of them.

Post: #269

(04-13-2017 01:32 AM)puckerman Wrote:  If you don't like airlines overbooking, then fly with Jetblue. It's no accident that Jetblue is consistently the most expensive airline to fly on. This is one reason why.

That's odd. My last vacation overseas I flew with Jetblue because they were the cheapest. And I was very impressed with Jetblue. I got off the plane happy as hell in Charlotte and then my connection was American. Those jackasses. Everyone on the plane was so pissed off. I'll spare you what they did to us, but American Airlines acts as if they've never loaded a goddamn plane before. It's like they just opened American Airlines yesterday and have no idea what they're doing.

I really liked Jetblue. I'm not sure about them being more expensive. Perhaps they are, but I always thought they were supposedly a discount airline. Either way, their customer service rocks.

Post: #270

I am late to this thread, but the United debacle combined with Delta's woes in Atlanta look like smoke signals to the lethargic USA Airlines industry as a whole. Also, the industry is seeing a 30% slump in America with foreigners spooked by Trump's travel ban (the politics in this instance do no matter. Bluntly speaking is bad for marketing travel to foreigners who don't understand USA politics in full)

The industry is skating buy via cost savings from oil/fuel plays. I can't think of a more shitty time aside from the dark age after 9/11 for the USA industry. Slowly but surely international competition is starting to dig into the USA market share as well. Things are not looking up.

United has been a poster child for this USA airline decline. The Corp is complete trash and they run trash operations with bad service, and flights, bad everything.

Post: #271

TripAdvisor Names The Best Airlines In The World
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tripadviso...00249.html

April 10, 2017

1. Emirates, United Arab Emirates
2. Singapore Airlines, Singapore
3. Azul, Brazil
4. JetBlue, United States
5. Air New Zealand, New Zealand
6. Korean Air, South Korea
7. Japan Airlines, Japan
8. Thai Smile, Thailand
9. Alaska Airlines, United States
10. Garuda Indonesia, Indonesia

Top Major Airline in North America:
Delta Air Lines, United States

Top Mid-Size & Low Cost Airlines in North America:
1. JetBlue, United States
2. Alaska Airlines, United States
3. Southwest, United States
4. Virgin America, United States
5. Westjet, Canada

Post: #272

(04-13-2017 01:32 AM)puckerman Wrote:  Airlines overbook because people change their plans and cancel trips.

That's why airlines (and any other companies, including hotels) are free to impose cancellation or schedule adjustment fees. I've paid plenty of those in my lifetime and I've never complained about them.

Dealing with "people changing their minds" by knowingly selling something you know you can't provide and then insulting the customers on top of that is a lazy and greedy way out.

Post: #273

Now talk about Fly American Act, government employees, contractors and military personnel are shoved down in their throats with American carriers. And their tickets are usually more expensive than foreign carriers'. I can't think of any worse customer service and unattractive flight attendants provided by these American carriers..... someone must've greased someone's palm in Washington. Also remember they forbided laptop carryons on etihad and emirates (some of the finest airlines) from the Middle East to the USA but allowing passengers to keep their laprops in their carryons if they are flying American.... this is anticapitalistic.... anti American... Trump has been a nightmare for my life and game so far...

Post: #274

(04-12-2017 09:28 PM)david.garrett84 Wrote:  My article on this is up:

http://www.returnofkings.com/119155/the-...y-possible

I know many of you guys will disagree (and I may also have to add a postscript about certain issues, such as the overbooking not necessarily being true).

I DO believe United fucked up majorly. But this guy's reaction was so infantile. And, remember, folks, don't sell prescription drugs for gay sex and you'll be able to practice more than one day per week.

Good article.

Now to the matter at hand since the outrage has settled down and we may or may not disagree over some issues.

How much will the guy get? How much will this net the dear homosexual crook doctor?

http://www.townandcountrymag.com/leisure...-law-suit/

Quote:There is nothing in that contract that gives United the right to commit an assault and battery.

"This is not a denied boarding incident, which is covered by the contract; this man was already boarded. This is not an oversold incident, as provided for by the contract; this airplane was not oversold—every passenger was ticketed and had a seat.

"This was not a situation where the passenger was unruly, committed a criminal act, interfered with the flight crew, was incapable of being a passenger by himself or anything of that nature, obviously until they attempted to physically throw him off the airplane.

"So to me, United Airlines breached their own contract of carriage."

"My view here is Dr. Dao has a very good case against United Airlines," he said "and if I were United Airlines, I'd be all over him to try to get him to accept a reasonable compensation and to go away."

My bet is somewhere in the vicinity of 5-10 mio. $ is possible in order for the case to go away. A jury may award him even more and would be a PR nightmare.

In my opinion that man just made the con of his life - he will be able to buy twink-boys and coke-fueled orgies for life.

Post: #275

None of you stop to think how these journalists suddenly know intimate details about this man's life?

Or why it would be relevant at all to being assaulted because you insist on getting what you paid for?

Come one now, the "research" into the phaggot drug malpractice doctor is clearly from United who then used their lackeys to leak this story.