What's the job situation like in SA? Can folks rise into the middle and upper class?

I almost feel like money is like electricity, you need to get it to flow

WIA

(02-27-2017 01:19 AM)Moma Wrote:  Excelsior, it CAN be left out of the discussion because you can't do anything about it. You can NOT improve your looks. If you look like Flavor Flav, no matter how much you intellectualise the process, no matter how much you whine, you will not suddenly look like Tyson Beckford..point blank.

I fundamentally disagree, and I speak as someone who has substantially improved his looks over time. One may not gain height or Beckford-esque facial features, but via style, diet, and fitness, one can substantially enhance their physical appearance. It isn't wise at all for any man (especially those who are young, like many here writing/browsing the forum) to assume that there is no room for improvement here. You should hone your physique and enhance your style just as you enhance your understanding of game.

Quote:If you are working a decent job making 150K per annum as a 25 year old, you will seem like a pauper if you are in a room rammed full of A-list Hollywood actors, Jamie Foxx, Kevin Hart, Matthew Mcconaughley. No matter how hard you complain, no matter how hard you think, you will NOT change your financial situation there.

I fundamentally disagree here as well. Enhancing one's financial/professional situation has many benefits. The fact that it doesn't guarantee one the ability to compete head-to-head with Jamie Foxx is really a very poor argument against the process of financial self-improvement.

This is basically what you're saying: "Even if you make a ton of cash [$150k at age 25 is well within the 1 percent for someone that age], you'll feel poor next to multi-millionaire Hollywood actors, so there's no benefit there."
That's just nonsensical. First, it presumes that A-List Hollywood Actors are the only point of reference here. They aren't - you're not always in competition with them and need not be in order to be successful. Second, it presumes that there are no benefits to getting to such a healthy financial state beyond the ability to out-clout Hollywood stars. That's also false.

You absolutely can change your financial situation (via increases in your actual income or geo-arbitrage that allows the financial status you currently have to get you to a much higher level), and those changes absolutely can be very consequential and beneficial for all areas of your life, up to and including your game. It is not wise for any man to write this off - this is a part of a man's life that should be focused on and invested in just as one invests in their game.

Quote:The area of improvement in which you can contend, where you can 'up the ante' is the psychological aspect of the field..game. Game can shift odds in your favour and open up the field. There is no point bringing up other stuff as that is intellectual masturbation. Observe the no fap rule on that. No matter how you word it, spin it and spice it, it still boils right back down to game.

You can up the ante financially, physically, and psychologically. All of those options can and should be put on the table for a man looking to improve. This goes doubly for younger men. It is downright dangerous to tell a man he’s stuck financially, stuck physically, and can only invest in game and game alone. That’s not just wrong, but it does a disservice to those men.

Game can shift odds in your favor and open up the field. So can money and so can enhanced physical fitness (and, again, I can speak directly to this). Improving one’s financial and physical situation can very clearly and significantly enhance one’s game as well. None of that is “intellectual masturbation”. It is reality, and it does nobody any good to ignore it.

I have to say, I’m quite fascinated by the perspective here. It seems that some here want no “limiting beliefs” imposed on the concept of game – the sky is the limit and it’s the only avenue of growth. But strangely, at the same time, these same guys put strict limiting beliefs up with regard to finance and fitness. As far as they are concerned, men should just assume they’ve hit the ceiling financially and physically, but presume no ceiling at all when it comes to game.

I push back against this perspective because it isn’t wise (as explained earlier, you CAN improve in those other non-psychological realms and should aim to do so), but it also isn’t realistic. Not every man is the same – just as not every man will grow to the same height, not every man will reach the same level of game, finances, or physique. Just about all can and should reach basic/intermediate competency in game, for example (which can take a lot of effort in and of itself), but precious few have the love of the game and the personal composition necessary to become, say, WIA. As I said in a post a few weeks ago in this thread, some guys are going to be Michael Vicks and Cam Newtons, while others are just going to be Tajh Boyd and/or Logan Thomas in the game.

So what if it turns out that I can improve my physique and finances further than I can improve my game? What if it turns out that, when it comes to game, I’m only ever going to be Logan Thomas (solid NCAA QB, short NFL career), but financially I can be Tyrod Taylor (pro-bowl NFL QB) or better. What if my game is only ever going to be Tajh Boyd (again, great NCAA QB, not an NFL QB) but I can be a physical Russell Wilson? This calculus is clearly going to alter the answer depending on which guy is answering. If your game is on a Cam Newton level but you know financially your ceiling is probably Tajh Boyd, perhaps the answer you give isn’t going to be the same answer another guy gives.

And, again, all of this is ignoring the fact that the holistic approach can clearly lead to the maximization of benefits for any individual guy. Even if you realize your game ceiling is Logan Thomas and not Cam Newton, there are still immense benefits to maximizing that potential because, when it is combined with a realm in which you have a higher ceiling (ex: let’s say your physique potential is Cam Newton) you are therefore able to become the best possible version of yourself. Similarly, if your game is Russell Wilson but your financial potential is just Logan Thomas, there is still great benefit to be had by maximizing that financial potential because that makes you the best possible version of yourself.

Thus, you can see that even if your game is elite, there are huge upsides to upping one’s financial and physical status to their full potential. Doing so just makes you better all around – you become the very best possible version of yourself, and that ought to be the goal of any man here. There’s no way to reach that goal if we dedicate ourselves to ignoring key components in the equation (looks and money).

Quote:The only thing that entered my mind as I lucked out in that club was that I need to tighten up my game. My release needs to be quicker and more fluid like Drazen Petrovic jumper. I don't need to be taller, whiter nor richer. Isaiah Thomas (5'9 allstar for the Boston Celtics) doesn't go in the game wishing he was bigger and taller and could jump higher. He is finished growing. He takes more shots in practice, stays in the gym longer and does wind sprints, pushups, box jumps, stretches, watches tapes of players with his size and build with his role (see where I am going here?) so that when the buzzer sounds and the game is done, he has dropped 30 points and 8 dimes on the opposing team. Stop watching tapes of Deandre Jordan if you are built like Dwayne Wade.

Yes, I see where you are going, and it makes my point. As I just said above, not all men are built the same way with the same ceilings in the same categories. Let’s say I’m someone with Cam Newton potential game, Tajh Boyd potential looks, and Logan Thomas financial potential. How much good does it do me to watch tape on the guy with the Tajh Boyd game, Logan Thomas looks, and Russell Wilson finances? Maybe I can get something out of it, but clearly my final approach to life will differ from that guy.

Strengths vary between men, and that necessitates a varied holistic approach. What you instead propose is a rigid, non-variable, singular approach narrowly tailored to game and game alone. That doesn’t make sense.

Improve yourself to your max potential in all fields and do not neglect any of them (because that makes you the best you can be), and then play to your strengths (which may not be the same strengths the guy next to you has). If you have Tajh Boyd game it can still be helpful to watch and learn from the guy with the Mike Vick game (if only to guarantee that you reach your own lower ceiling/potential in game and become the best you can be in that realm), but its ok if you never actually become Mike Vick in game – play to your other strengths instead. Maybe you’re a physical Mike Vick or a financial Mike Vick – if that’s the case, adjust your strategy accordingly.

Quote:I see rough Nigerians and Jamaicans constantly roll off the ship fresh as fcuk and start smashing white lizards prematurely. If I were to complain to them about my shortcomings in not being able to get gyal, they laugh at me like I'm some sarf fish and chips eating loafter and they are right. The rough Naija or Jamo guy pulling lizards is not pulling them cos lizards like rough guys, he is pulling lizards because he doesn't give a fcuk, has immutable self confidence. Often a lizard ends up spreading for a guy because the guy she likes didn't have the scrotum contents to go up and claim his prize. She ends up sleeping with who is available and had the gall to approach her and propose his penis instead with whom she really desired.

Not everyone has the personality or upbringing necessary to mimic the rough Jamaican guy fresh off the boat. At the end of the day, you need to be who you are and play to your strengths. Shore up yourself in all realms to be the best you can be, and then approach life in a manner best served to what YOU are, not what some random fresh-off-the-boat Caribbeans are.

Quote:What will say I notice is that as we enter the tail end of the winter months, some of you lot start whining on irrational stuff. I am blessed to be in the tropics but I spent decades in countries with crappy spirit sapping winter seasons so I totally understand. But bear in mind that since your rationales are very likely shifted due to environment and dig deeper, turn on your sun lamps and stick to game principles and allow this winter blow over.

I am not irrational, I am not whining, and the end of winter has nothing to do with it. I just don’t agree with you. Reasonable minds are free to differ.

Quote:In summary, you have to accept that game is the answer and learn it, there are no ifs and buts about it. If you deny it, you continue to be the prey instead of the predator.

Here is what I have to accept:
Game is ONE answer. You must learn it, and there are no ifs/ands/buts about that.
Game is not the ONLY answer. You can and should learn of the other answers as well. Failure to do so will result in your failure to become the best you can be, and nobody should settle for that.

(02-22-2017 03:04 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  Sometimes, I even wonder if my own struggles with women throughout my life haven't had anything to do with some sort of cosmic justice/karma for my mother's cruelty as a young, beautiful woman.

I've been more like Richard so far in my life, and I've noticed something - many of the stories of how she dismissed those men reminded me of what I went through with a couple of the women I've pursued in my life.

So for all of the cruelly wronged men out there, buck up - you never know how much karmic justice certain women who were cruel to you in the past may be feeling and connecting to their treatment of you right now or down the road. I myself could become a "Richard" for a couple of women I've interacted with, though they probably would never tell me. It happens.

Your are an excellent writer, but the the pain comes through loud and clear in what you wrote.

I live in arguably the hardest city in the west, the infamous Toronto. I am almost double your age but you don't hear me complaining. I have to adjust, I surround myself with guys that are winning.

The game doesn't get easier as you get older, it gets harder.

I would listen to Moma, he talks about going out solo, making x amount of approaches, asking girls to buy him a drink and taking your lumps. More importantly learn from your mistakes.

He treats the game like a joke, these girls are a joke. The Long Island girls in the pic Archie supplied, are a joke. I don't look at them as LTR, I look at them as easy hits on spring break.

I would also say game for a black guy is vastly different, this is a whole new thread in itself and something I would not rather discuss in the open.

As for the money thing, sure it can buy you nice things and a lifestyle. Women still leave rich dudes, I talk to many a divorcee who left her husband because he was never home.

Don't use money as a crutch.

(02-27-2017 12:36 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 01:09 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  Looks vs game

Money vs game

This never ends, we have a lot of non believers it seems.

People are still talking about this because it is relevant. I sense a tendency around for folks to want to dodge the topic (either because they find it has been overdone or just isn't productive), and I get that, but I don't really think that is the right way forward. I, frankly, do not see how one can have a truly complete, productive, high-level discussion of game without also making significant room for the financial (and physical) aspect of things. There's a middle ground between "let's not talk about money vs. game at all here" and "hey look I bought a Porsche, I don't need game now lol" schools of thought that I think may be missing here.

With regard to game, I don't believe one need be a "non-believer" in order to discuss looks/money vs. game. I'm certainly a believer in game - I've seen first hand examples of men with money or looks (or even both) falling over easy hurdles because they lack a basic understanding of game. Similarly, I've seen men with limited funds and relatively pedestrian physical appearances outperform richer, better looking men. There's plenty of evidence out there to debunk the "game doesn't matter when you have money/looks/status" crowd.

I think there is a tendency in the game community to underrate the value of wealth, looks, and other proxies of status in weighing a man's success. These things are not absolutely necessary to succeed - again, I've seen that first hand and WIA also helpfully illustrated the fact that even the mere appearance of wealth (absent actual funds) can be enough to do the trick. You don't absolutely NEED money/looks/other proxies of status to do consistently well with very attractive women. Game (either via force of personality or that combined with the guile necessary to "fake it til you make it" like WIA noted) can get you far.

It really depends on how you use money to support your game.

If you use it only superficially...fast cars, expensive suits, jewelry,
bottle service etc then you're just spending a lot of money to create an image
that attracts the wrong women.

The only way to use money to improve your game is to invest it in yourself.
Spanish lessons, plane tickets, partyhost supplies,dance lessons,
gym memberships, etc something that's going to give you a real return...

The best thing though you can ever do to improve your game with money is to invest it so you can get more of your time back...
so you can ultimately invest that extra time into traveling more and meeting more women.

(02-27-2017 05:48 PM)Apollo21 Wrote:  It really depends on how you use money to support your game.

If you use it only superficially...fast cars, expensive suits, jewelry,
bottle service etc then you're just spending a lot of money to create an image
that attracts the wrong women.

The only way to use money to improve your game is to invest it in yourself.
Spanish lessons, plane tickets, partyhost supplies,dance lessons,
gym memberships, etc something that's going to give you a real return...

The best thing though you can ever do to improve your game with money is to invest it so you can get more of your time back...
so you can ultimately invest that extra time into traveling more and meeting more women.

I'm not wading into this debate again, but let's talk about the best ways to use money to improve yourself and your game.

Self Improvement/Passive Attraction/Lifestyle Game
- Lump sum -

1. Cologne 35-100 (or 5 dollars from your incense man)
2. Stylish shoes (good shoes are expensive, STYLISH SHOES are either real cheap or UBER expensive - all that high end stuff gets copied by Aldo)
3. A new shirt
4. A new hair cut
5. A trip to a new place/country - a) broader your horizon, b) sample what's out there

- monthly payments -
1. Changing neighborhoods to be closer to the action
2. Personal trainer, gym membership, better food/eating habits

Active Game
1. Books, materials, videos, courses, seminars, coaching on game
2. Speech training - voice projection, diction, volume
3. Improv Classes - to help you get used to thinking on the fly and generating conversation
4. Acting classes - learning how emotions are conveyed and perceived, and using those skills to emphasize your jokes, observations, non-verbal body language.
5. Dance classes to improve your posture, stance, and getting used to physically leading a woman.
6. Comedy classes to understand the structure of how to tell jokes
7. Gimmicks at your place/Plausible deniability stuff - camera set up, fish tank, pet, booze, stripper pole
8. Professional photos for your online presence

Things you don't have to pay for, but cost you time
- Learning what good style is
- Daily socializing - a) learning how to shoot the shit, b) approaching strangers, c) and finally light flirting
- Taking a sales or bartending job - nuff said on the topic.
- Locking your scene down by knowing all the club people, but also all the different groups of people that go out on a regular basis.

Trade Offs
- For me, I'd rather have an uglier apartment with a better location, than a nice apartment and a better car in a farther away location
- If I had to choose between an extra day of working out, vs going out - i'd go out 99 times out of 100
- I'd pick a new pair of shoes over a new shirt.
- I'd pick a new cologne over a new pair of jeans

Somethings aren't so clear
- Like should you spend 400 dollars on a game course from a guy you respect, of spend 400 bucks going out 4 weekends in a row?

If you've done the weekends before, maybe the game PLAN is what you need. If you've got a bunch of game material stacked up on your hard drive - then going out is better. A lot of guys go out a ton and never get better

- If I was gonna go hang my boys, versus with my female coworkers - i'm going out with the girls some nights, my boys other nights, BUT solo most nights.

What I've personally found to be a waste of money
- The luxury car for the purpose of pulling girls. Me sitting in a late model German never worked for me like it worked for other people. I loved that car, but it only turned the chick into a gold digger when we pulled off in it. I fucked more when i was in the Honda.

- Buying drinks for chicks I don't know
- Trying to impress a girl with a fancy dinner
- Suits for the purpose of impressing a chick. (I meet them in a t-shirt and jeans, but in the morning, I might suit up. "Get you a man who can do both" type steez)

WIA

(02-27-2017 10:09 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Self Improvement/Passive Attraction/Lifestyle Game
- Lump sum -

1. Cologne 35-100 (or 5 dollars from your incense man)
2. Stylish shoes (good shoes are expensive, STYLISH SHOES are either real cheap or UBER expensive - all that high end stuff gets copied by Aldo)
3. A new shirt
4. A new hair cut
5. A trip to a new place/country - a) broader your horizon, b) sample what's out there

- monthly payments -
1. Changing neighborhoods to be closer to the action
2. Personal trainer, gym membership, better food/eating habits

Active Game
1. Books, materials, videos, courses, seminars, coaching on game
2. Speech training - voice projection, diction, volume
3. Improv Classes - to help you get used to thinking on the fly and generating conversation
4. Acting classes - learning how emotions are conveyed and perceived, and using those skills to emphasize your jokes, observations, non-verbal body language.
5. Dance classes to improve your posture, stance, and getting used to physically leading a woman.
6. Comedy classes to understand the structure of how to tell jokes
7. Gimmicks at your place/Plausible deniability stuff - camera set up, fish tank, pet, booze, stripper pole
8. Professional photos for your online presence

Things you don't have to pay for, but cost you time
- Learning what good style is
- Daily socializing - a) learning how to shoot the shit, b) approaching strangers, c) and finally light flirting
- Taking a sales or bartending job - nuff said on the topic.
- Locking your scene down by knowing all the club people, but also all the different groups of people that go out on a regular basis.

Just curious, which of things you listed were things that you did?

Quote:What I've personally found to be a waste of money


- Buying drinks for chicks I don't know

One thing I did find that worked is buying drinks for guys at the bar. Spot a guy who looks interesting or has a group of girls. Chat with him then buy him a shot. The guy will appreciate it. If he has girls in his group, he is likely to introduce them to you.

Archie, you seem to be big on going out solo and I see where you are going with it. It forces you to be active and not use your crew as crutches to just post up and make excuses why you shouldn't go and talk to the lizard or just socialise in general. I do a lot of solo ventures myself so I know exactly where you are coming from.
Nowadays, I have gone out with one wing but my eyes scan the room constantly looking for targets and when I see one, I go for the plunge.

I also tried suiting up for a bit but I just found that it made me look like some Narc and or some stiff and I was attracting lizards who wanted to be wined and dined expensively. Fcuk dat, I work it in reverse and if they throw me some decent pumpkin pie (punani), I might treat them out depending on how they are in general.
When I dressed down (but not bummy cos that's never been my thing), I felt more in my element, more comfortable in spitting lyrics and I also saw the lizards relaxing.

I think the improv classes or comedy is huge. A lot of guys are leaving a lot on the table because they lack the social skills or the quick snaps that come from regular jousting on stage. One of my favourite shows growing up was 'Whose Line is it Anyway?'. I loved how the guys could just come off of the top based on random shyt thrown at them from the crowd or Drew Carey. I also used to spit a lot of freestyles on the wet streets of London, I also think that helps to keep the mind sharp.

Convert that to game, once one stays aloof and keeps throwing jabs, you will be amazed at what you bag, after a while. I think wit plays a major part and laughing is very close to a clitorial orgasm for many lizards.

Too many guys out there are bringing a game style that is as stiff and dry as the heel of stale hard dough bread. Let's stay loose, warm and flexible.

(02-27-2017 05:41 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  Your are an excellent writer, but the the pain comes through loud and clear in what you wrote.

What does this statement have to do with my argument?

Yeah, I've taken serious L's. I've been forthright about that since the day I got here.

That isn't relevant to my point, which is that money (along with looks/physique/fitness) is an invaluable part of any holistic approach to male self-improvement and should not be dismissed.

Quote:I live in arguably the hardest city in the west, the infamous Toronto. I am almost double your age but you don't hear me complaining. I have to adjust, I surround myself with guys that are winning.

I'm not required to treat any bad situation like an inevitable end game. Life is too short for that.

Quote:The game doesn't get easier as you get older, it gets harder.

That depends on how and where you play. The game does not need to get harder. That's not an inevitability.

Quote:I would listen to Moma, he talks about going out solo, making x amount of approaches, asking girls to buy him a drink and taking your lumps. More importantly learn from your mistakes.

I have. I'm not new at this. In fact, Moma and I had a debate not entirely dissimilar to this one nearly 6 years ago:

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-2303-...l#pid74826

I was basically a teenager then, still in college, just a year and a half (or thereabouts) worth of experience in reading/learning/practicing the game. We went back and forth about the value of cold approaching and game vs. money. I was influenced by what he said then - it got me to actually consider the value of cold approaching and the real worth of wealth in the game. He was right to note that, at the time, I was really only discussing the game from a theoretical perspective. I hadn't spent enough time out in the field, in the real world, really grappling with the realities of it all. I hadn't approached enough or gained anything near the requisite amount of practical experience off campus.

Understanding this, I didn't get into any arguments about money vs. game or the merits of cold approaching on the forum. I realized I needed to rectify some of the issues described above, issues Moma correctly pointed out. It's been, as I said, nearly 6 years.

So, what was I doing in that time? Growing up. Leaving school. Getting an actual job. Living in a real city. Making actual money. Getting out in the field. Going out solo. Making approaches - LOTS of approaches. Working to counter approach anxiety. Practicing active listening skills. Taking lumps - LOTS of lumps. Getting more deeply in touch with the game directly from a practical level, as opposed to a theoretical level.

And where has that led me? Right where we are now.

That's not to say I'm done learning - one could argue that no man is ever really done learning. It is to say, however, that the conclusions I've come to are informed by experience and prior dialogue with respected, knowledgeable individuals.

I've listened to Moma, taken my lumps, and learned from my (many) mistakes. What you're reading are my conclusions drawn from all of that after getting into the real world and learning in the field.

I'm glad I had that argument with Moma then because it got the idea of cold approaching into my head and forced me to give it more of a shot. I wouldn't be as informed today had I not done committed to doing more approaches. It not only brought me closer to my full potential in game, but it also taught me more about my strengths and my limits. Every man should commit to them for at least some significant period of time for the learning experience alone. Big up Moma for making that argument then - he was right.

All that being said, my experience has led me to the conclusions I've outlined here:

-Game matters.
-Money matters too. Women care more about it than many would like to admit and it has a greater correlation to success with women than is often acknowledged here, ESPECIALLY outside of the Anglosphere.
-Your physique/fitness/style matters. Women do care what you look like and proper attention to these areas can change the game for you.
-Both money and physique/fitness/style can greatly enhance one's game when applied properly in coordination with game (and when following efforts to improve one's game, i.e. getting a decent amount of cold approach experience and active listening practice in).
-Failure to properly invest in basic/intermediate game competence due to an over-reliance on looks/money will result in a failure to reach one's potential and, more likely than not, serious embarrassment.
-A holistic approach to self improvement is the best approach. Focusing on game to the exclusion of money/appearance/fitness is a bad idea.
-A focus on all categories mentioned above along with game allows one to become the best version of themself. For someone looking for the best possible chance of succeeding with women and in life generally, that is an essential goal that should never be compromised.

Quote:I would also say game for a black guy is vastly different, this is a whole new thread in itself and something I would not rather discuss in the open.

I agree that the game is different, but at some point I think we should stop being so shy about open discussion to that end. This is the kind of thing that needs to be put out there, especially for the young men who may be watching, listening, and learning (and, having benefited from being one of those young men, I know how influential and helpful dialogue here can be).

Quote:As for the money thing, sure it can buy you nice things and a lifestyle. Women still leave rich dudes, I talk to many a divorcee who left her husband because he was never home.

Don't use money as a crutch.

You're preaching to the choir here. I've not once advocated the use of money as a crutch. I've argued that a focus on one's finances (not necessarily getting rich, but maxmizing one's financial potential/buying power and being the best they can be in that realm) is an important part (one, singular part) of what should be a holistic approach to improvement for any man. That's all.

(02-27-2017 11:19 PM)Moma Wrote:  Archie, you seem to be big on going out solo and I see where you are going with it. It forces you to be active and not use your crew as crutches

Crutches? Lucky gaming with my peeps is more like cinder blocks around my ankles thrown into the atlantic

(02-27-2017 11:43 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  --Money matters too. Women care more about it than many would like to admit and it has a greater correlation to success with women than is often acknowledged here, ESPECIALLY outside of the Anglosphere.

I don't buy this. I think perceived "money" matters. All money is is a key. You still gotta put the key in the key hole, turn the key, twist the knob, open the door, walk inside, close the door and lock it back.
You can also unlock doors via other methods, credit card, crowbar, lock pick tools, bump key etc. All you have to be good with the lock is making it think that you have the key.

I don't believe women really care one way or another if you actually have the real key. as long as you can make it "feel" like you have the real key you can open the door.

Moma T: godfather of grime. Look out Wiley!

On a purely practical level. Let me put it this way money on a social level can be a horrible thing to have.

Sure buy the bartender a redbull, tip extra, etc., but you don't want to be looked for as a fat pig to be milked. Plenty of guys get fleeced out there.

That's my warning when it comes to the pursuit of money without proper social capital to back it up and opening certain doors. And past those doors first impressions are the ones that stick.

Highly suggest y'all check out the movie "Get Out" Especially for the brothers pining over YT women, lol.

(02-28-2017 01:22 AM)DimeBait Wrote:  Highly suggest y'all check out the movie "Get Out" Especially for the brothers pining over YT women, lol.

Sittin here like what the fuck is "YT"....I gotcha bro

(02-27-2017 10:09 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 05:48 PM)Apollo21 Wrote:  It really depends on how you use money to support your game.

If you use it only superficially...fast cars, expensive suits, jewelry,
bottle service etc then you're just spending a lot of money to create an image
that attracts the wrong women.

The only way to use money to improve your game is to invest it in yourself.
Spanish lessons, plane tickets, partyhost supplies,dance lessons,
gym memberships, etc something that's going to give you a real return...

The best thing though you can ever do to improve your game with money is to invest it so you can get more of your time back...
so you can ultimately invest that extra time into traveling more and meeting more women.

I'm not wading into this debate again, but let's talk about the best ways to use money to improve yourself and your game.

Self Improvement/Passive Attraction/Lifestyle Game
- Lump sum -

1. Cologne 35-100 (or 5 dollars from your incense man)
2. Stylish shoes (good shoes are expensive, STYLISH SHOES are either real cheap or UBER expensive - all that high end stuff gets copied by Aldo)
3. A new shirt
4. A new hair cut
5. A trip to a new place/country - a) broader your horizon, b) sample what's out there

- monthly payments -
1. Changing neighborhoods to be closer to the action
2. Personal trainer, gym membership, better food/eating habits

Active Game
1. Books, materials, videos, courses, seminars, coaching on game
2. Speech training - voice projection, diction, volume
3. Improv Classes - to help you get used to thinking on the fly and generating conversation
4. Acting classes - learning how emotions are conveyed and perceived, and using those skills to emphasize your jokes, observations, non-verbal body language.
5. Dance classes to improve your posture, stance, and getting used to physically leading a woman.
6. Comedy classes to understand the structure of how to tell jokes
7. Gimmicks at your place/Plausible deniability stuff - camera set up, fish tank, pet, booze, stripper pole
8. Professional photos for your online presence

Things you don't have to pay for, but cost you time
- Learning what good style is
- Daily socializing - a) learning how to shoot the shit, b) approaching strangers, c) and finally light flirting
- Taking a sales or bartending job - nuff said on the topic.
- Locking your scene down by knowing all the club people, but also all the different groups of people that go out on a regular basis.

Trade Offs
- For me, I'd rather have an uglier apartment with a better location, than a nice apartment and a better car in a farther away location
- If I had to choose between an extra day of working out, vs going out - i'd go out 99 times out of 100
- I'd pick a new pair of shoes over a new shirt.
- I'd pick a new cologne over a new pair of jeans

Somethings aren't so clear
- Like should you spend 400 dollars on a game course from a guy you respect, of spend 400 bucks going out 4 weekends in a row?

If you've done the weekends before, maybe the game PLAN is what you need. If you've got a bunch of game material stacked up on your hard drive - then going out is better. A lot of guys go out a ton and never get better

- If I was gonna go hang my boys, versus with my female coworkers - i'm going out with the girls some nights, my boys other nights, BUT solo most nights.

What I've personally found to be a waste of money
- The luxury car for the purpose of pulling girls. Me sitting in a late model German never worked for me like it worked for other people. I loved that car, but it only turned the chick into a gold digger when we pulled off in it. I fucked more when i was in the Honda.

- Buying drinks for chicks I don't know
- Trying to impress a girl with a fancy dinner
- Suits for the purpose of impressing a chick. (I meet them in a t-shirt and jeans, but in the morning, I might suit up. "Get you a man who can do both" type steez)

WIA

I co-sign all of this. This post accurately illustrates most of the upsides money has from a game perspective. Just a few things to add:

-The car is indeed overrated. It can be leveraged as a sign of passive value if properly handled (and that can be powerful when done properly I think), but generally cars are not the massive draws they are made out to be. I've heard advice (here and elsewhere) regarding motorbikes that suggests they're honestly a better draw on the whole, and I think there's something to that.

-Money can eliminate the apartment/location tradeoff. You can get the nice apartment in the right location with the right sum of cash.

(02-28-2017 12:26 AM)Mufasa Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 11:43 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  --Money matters too. Women care more about it than many would like to admit and it has a greater correlation to success with women than is often acknowledged here, ESPECIALLY outside of the Anglosphere.

I don't buy this. I think perceived "money" matters. All money is is a key. You still gotta put the key in the key hole, turn the key, twist the knob, open the door, walk inside, close the door and lock it back.
You can also unlock doors via other methods, credit card, crowbar, lock pick tools, bump key etc. All you have to be good with the lock is making it think that you have the key.

I don't believe women really care one way or another if you actually have the real key. as long as you can make it "feel" like you have the real key you can open the door.

You won't get an argument from me here. The perception of wealth can definitely be almost as powerful as actually having it from a game perspective, if one is a sufficiently skilled operator. There's no denying that, especially in the context of shorter-term relationships.

(02-28-2017 01:52 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  You won't get an argument from me here. The perception of wealth can definitely be almost as powerful as actually having it from a game perspective, if one is a sufficiently skilled operator. There's no denying that, especially in the context of shorter-term relationships.

True true but then again Bonnie was a seamstress before she met Clyde..

Excelsior if you think that taking your physique and finances to that next level will help then experiment with it, just don't use those things as a refuge from the game. I'm sure you've read before though that most people that focus on these things find themselves back in the same place as soon as they touch nightlife / social venues, where force of personality is more important because those things just don't stimulate women the way that playing with her emotions does, especially in nightlife which is already a high stimulus environment.

(02-28-2017 02:21 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Excelsior if you think that taking your physique and finances to that next level will help then experiment with it, just don't use those things as a refuge from the game. I'm sure you've read before though that most people that focus on these things find themselves back in the same place as soon as they touch nightlife / social venues, where force of personality is more important because those things just don't stimulate women the way that playing with her emotions does, especially in nightlife which is already a high stimulus environment.

Do you think I haven't yet "touched nightlife / social venues"?

What is it with some of you guys? Why are some of you talking to me like I just registered here and started reading RVF last week?
I've been in the "nightlife/social venue" field for years now. The experimenting has already began. That's where my conclusions are coming from - firsthand observation and experience.

I've been in the game long enough to understand that building one's entire life around night game is not only unnecessary, but not even advisable in all circumstances. Roosh would agree.

Whether or not you find yourself "in the same place" depends on who you are and how you play the game. There are different strokes for different folks.

@Iso I've done all of those except the voice coach. If I had the time and money, I would do even more, cause I know what that investment yields.

Now we're getting into game theory, when the purpose of my response was game practicality.

WIA

@WIA

You bring up a good point on men that go out a lot but don't get better at pulling.

What can a man with a good voice do with night game? Voice inflection while telling a story? Impersonations of celebrities to induce certain emotions in people?

To me, game is more about psychology than anything else. We're all being gamed in one way or another. You get gamed to make money for your employer, you get gamed into paying exorbitant fees for college.

game is about how you think. and if you can get somone to think a certain way, you can get them to act a certain way.

maybe it's just a mindset thing. just ask yourself why you do the things you do. a lot of the time, it turns out that the decisions you make are decisions that other people in power WANT you to make.

Game = psychology = business = life. Shit, i would even say parents game their children into taking care of them in their old age.

but not everyone is ready for that type of discussion

Game is seeing women for the way they are and using it to get what you want.

That's not to say that one shouldn't stack bread...just don't do it thinking that a woman will appreciate you for it. Why should she?

Men are replaceable to women. A woman could have any dick she wants. She has options, bruh.

Do you have options?

Game will give you options. Money won't, money will just make you think you have options, when really, it just turns you into a cash cow. someone else mentioned a similar idea earlier, and said something else about social capital.

It's why having "followers" on Insta can lead to dates -- who is this guy and why do so many people approve of him? Now she's interested.

These females are wolves, bruh. And men are the sheep. We may have cars, the internet, and spaceships, but at the end of the day, the vast majority of people are hairless monkeys.

We're animals, bruh.

But there are rules, general patterns that you can learn. This is simply a belief that I have. So maybe it's just my mindset that influencing people is a learnable skill.

So if you can change people's minds, well then they're yours. They will do what you want them to do.

They'll twerk for you, they'll cook for you, they'll call you daddy (all things that i've had women do for me with a smile on their face).

Of course that was college. It's easy to so that in a closed off, safe community like that.

But random girl on tuesday night? The woman walking her dog in the park? That cutie on the bus?

Having big muscles will not tell you how to unlock a girl. Throwing dollar bills at her will not convert her?

Game is behavior, game is decision making.

So do you want to be a decision maker, or do you want decisions to be made for you?

It's a jungle out there. Eat or be eaten. That's the way I see it.

But maybe I'm crazy.

Also, with classes: them shits can get costly, both financially and time-wise.

I've taken dance classes, I just don't think they're worth it long-term if you're cashflow isn't on lock.

You can watch YouTube videos, practice in front of a mirror, then go out at night and do the dance moves, and you accomplish all the same things. You get the steps from YT, and get the socializing from the club environment (provided you actually talk to people).

the class environment is good for initially eliminating social anxiety. people are friendlier in class settings. but after a certain point, i noticed that it was full of couples and older, overweight Caucasian women. good for networking, I guess

might just be a location thing, tho. Kansas City is whiter than foam!

Improv, too, I've done that. I could do more of it, though. But instead of taking a class, why not just read a how-to book on jokes, then go out to a bar and try it out?

but hey, the line is fuzzy. sometimes doing the thing that you think is dumb is what you need to do in order to grow

if you have limited funds, i say the most cost-effective thing to do is read books, then go out. Cut out the classes because otherwise you'll end up on that achievement treadmill. Why take a year of dance classes if you're not tryna compete for a dance title? that's the way I see it.

Edit: typing on an iPhone is a struggle

excelsior, let me read your datasheet on your most active year of going out. List the type of venues, your types of approaches and results.

Excelsior - we would love to have you on the podcast to discuss the current state of affairs.

We discussed the house party college girl, on the show featuring Archie.

Don't worry it is no longer free to listen, so I doubt it your boss or colleagues will find you.

Moma and I like to talk about solutions, not whine about the problem.

(02-27-2017 10:09 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  What I've personally found to be a waste of money
- The luxury car for the purpose of pulling girls. Me sitting in a late model German never worked for me like it worked for other people. I loved that car, but it only turned the chick into a gold digger when we pulled off in it. I fucked more when i was in the Honda.

- Buying drinks for chicks I don't know
- Trying to impress a girl with a fancy dinner
- Suits for the purpose of impressing a chick. (I meet them in a t-shirt and jeans, but in the morning, I might suit up. "Get you a man who can do both" type steez)

WIA

This is money.

I had more girls in my Pontiac Sunfire than I did in my late model Benz.

I co-sign hard on the other things you stated on the list.

Archie drops the knowledge, don't debate it.

SAfrica is dope, they've got excellent house music. South African b'raai >> Kansas City barbecue

I do recall having a couple provider seeking hold-outs when I was driving my s-class, but nothing dispositive. TBH, I usually got the bang before they even seen what I drove.