Mr. Brightside 
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RE: Learning Japanese
Stole this from another place:
"Hi there, you've come to this thread looking for guidance on how to start learning Japanese, or you've already been learning Japanese for whatever length of time and you're trying to progress past a sticky point. Hopefully this OP helps somewhat, but if not, the hugely learned Japanese-speaking goons in this thread can!
Yes, Japanese is hard, but so is any language. I studied French at school, and that was fucking hard. I also took Latin, which was damn easy for me, but it's a dead language so who the hell cares that I (could, years ago) understand Latin?
The one thing common to learning any subject is that it takes time and effort. Nobody is incapable of learning Japanese, no-one. Not the twats I studied Japanese with at university who proclaimed they were doomed never to get anywhere with Japanese, because it was so hard for them; even they could get to their desired level of fluency if they applied the appropriate amount of time and hard work.
[fixed]
- The reading & writing system
- Hiragana
- Katakana
- Kanji
[/list=1]
- Can't I just go to Japan to study Japanese?
- Suggestions for textbooks for beginners
- Dictionaries: a discussion of paper, electronic, internet and smartphone varieties
- Internet dictionaries
- Paper dictionaries
- Electronic dictionaries
- Smartphone dictionaries (really just a blend of the above three types)
[/list=1]
- Something about conjugating verbs
- Speaking Japanese
- Pitch accent
- How did we learn Japanese?
[**]Is Rosetta Stone any good?
- The Japanese Language Proficiency Test (JLPT): What is it, who's it for, and should I take it?
- Links to external resources
- A guide to ordering books & manga from Japan
- In closing...
[/list=A][/fixed]
A. The reading & writing system
There are two phonetic alphabets in Japanese and one character system imported from China.
1. Hiragana
This is the first alphabet system in Japanese, and is generally used by children who don't yet know Kanji, or for representing grammar as shown in the quote from mystes below in the Kanji subsection.
Rather than linking just any old chart, I'll link to Tofugu.com's generous offering: http://www.tofugu.com/japanese-resources...ana-chart/
2. Katakana
This is the second alphabet system in Japanese, generally used for words imported into Japanese via other languages.
A lot of Katakana look similar to their Hiragana counterparts, which makes it seem easier to learn but also has the unfortunate side-effect of making you confuse Hiragana and Katakana on occasion (as a beginner).
Here is Tofugu's Katakana chart: http://www.tofugu.com/japanese-resources...ana-chart/
Unlike Kanji, below, I do not hesitate to recommend learning Hiragana and Katakana by rote repetition. It's the maximum effort approach, but I had both alphabets down within 3 weeks by writing them out from memory until I could reproduce every character without referring to my charts. There are many books which you can buy that purport to teach you via easy systems or pictures, but I haven't used any of these and my way is free 
3. Kanji
Here is a helpful explanation of what Kanji are by mystes
Japanese children need to learn ~2000 of these by high school graduation (so, about 10 years of studying them), and they study by rote repetition, writing out the day's lesson's characters over and over and over and over and over and ... you get the idea.
You however, are smarter than a Japanese child! It needn't take you 10 years, hell, some people claim to have learned how to write all 2000 (that are mandated by the Japanese Ministry of Education) in less than 1 year!
There are many, many ways to learn, and the trick is to try as many as you can until you find one that works for you.
I have personally tried:
Remembering the Kanji volume 1 by James Heisig, which was working amazingly until I got derailed by personal commitments, after which point I've never quite returned to it.
RtK has been published in English, French, German and Spanish, and is typically available in well-stocked bookstores and from Amazon.
If you go ahead with it, you will find Spaced Repetition Software extremely useful, of which there are two well-known programs, [url="http://ankisrs.net"]Anki[/url] and [url="http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/"]Mnemosyne[/url], both of which feature user-generated flashcard decks for learning Japanese or specifically for Remembering the Kanji, and one RtK specific website, [url="http://kanji.koohii.com/"]Reviewing the Kanji[/url].
[url="http://bookclub.japantimes.co.jp/act/en/Search.do?k=&c1id=2&c2id=18"]Kanji in Context[/url], from the Japan Times Book Club, is a reference book plus two workbooks involving teaching the learner new words via example sentences, so that they are remembered in context and the learner knows their usage.
I'm currently using this approach to Kanji, in conjunction with Anki.
Ara and gra recommend [url="http://kanjidamage.com/"]Kanji Damage[/url]. The site offers a comprehensive explanation of the Kanji Damage method, so check that out if you're interested.
Oh, and I almost forgot, you can disregard all those and just learn by rote memorisation, writing each Kanji over and over whilst repeating the pronunciation under your breath... that's how I started! (using this series of books, [url="http://www.bonjinsha.com/product/?item_id=27"]Basic Kanji Book 500[/url])
Whichever method you choose to learn Kanji, the most important thing to remember is do not be afraid!
In the closing page of the previous thread it was unanimously agreed upon that one should begin to study Kanji from the very beginning of one's Japanese study. If I can offer my own take on this, a very good reason for starting Kanji from the very beginning is: they take a long time to learn, so the sooner you get started, the better!
08.10.2011 edit: By common consensus in this thread, it is better to learn Kanji as components of a word than to learn each Kanji individually.
For example, the Kanji 日 should be learned by memorising the words 日（ひ・day）, 日曜日（にちようび・Sunday）, 日本（にほん or にっぽん・Japan）, 日差し（ひざし・sunlight）, and so on, rather than attempting to memorise the on-yomi and kun-yomi readings of the individual Kanji. As mentioned earlier in this subsection, the Kanji In Context textbooks teach Kanji via words in this manner.
B.Can't I just go to Japan to study Japanese?
Sure! Here are a couple of Tokyo-based Japanese language school directories, for people interested in studying from scratch or brushing up on their current Japanese skills:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/info/japanes...directory/
http://metropolis.co.jp/specials/909/909_top.htm
I also learned of [url="http://yamasa.org/index.html"]the Yamasa Institute[/url] in the previous thread; I welcome any reports from alumni!
I personally know of people who have been able to go live in Japan by landing English-teaching jobs, either through the JET programme or via some private English-language schools (known as 英会話・えいかいわ). Nominally a Bachelor's degree is the entry-level requirement for such a job, however some private schools sneakily hire foreigners who don't have degrees too. So this would be an alternative to paying for the above-mentioned Japanese language schools.
C. What are some good textbooks for beginners?
[url="http://www.3anet.co.jp/english/books/books_01.html"]みんなの日本語[/url] (Minna no Nihongo)
[url="http://www.ajalt.org/e/publications/textbooks1.html"]Japanese for Busy People[/url]
[url="http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/index_en"]Genki[/url] - Genki comes most highly recommended by goons!
If textbooks turn you off, skip on down to the Resources section of this post, and have a read of All Japanese All The Time and Tae Kim's Guide To Japanese, both of which enable textbook-averse people to join in and learn Japanese.
D. Can you suggest a good dictionary?
1. Thank god for the internets! Seriously, if you're just starting out and not willing to drop a load of cash on pricey paper dictionaries (or even more hilariously pricey electronic dictionaries) there are a good few sites out there.
I use [url="http://www.alc.co.jp/"]ALC[/url], which is all in Japanese but you can still use it if you don't know any Japanese.
Just enter the word you're trying to translate (Japanese or English, either is fine), press the Enter/Return key, and you will get a lengthy results page.
A word of caution: mystes advises you below not to use ALC for translating Japanese words into English, as entries are automatically generated.
[url="http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/"]Yahoo! Japan[/url] has a selection of dictionaries, and will reference all of them in their search results. The radio buttons underneath the search box mean Japanese, quasi-synonyms, English-Japanese, Japanese-English, and all dictionaries, respectively. The yellow box to the right means to search the dictionaries, whilst clicking the blue box will search the internet.
Both of the above dictionaries are primarily aimed at Japanese internet users, whereas in the English-speaking internet, [url="http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C"]Jim Breen's WWWJDIC[/url] is quite popular. I have little experience of using it, and haven't used it in a long time, so I'll link to [url="http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3438030&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post395738276"]a post on page two[/url] containing other people's thoughts on it.
2. If you're looking for something more tangible, I highly recommend the two following paper dictionaries:
[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kodanshas-Furigana-Dictionary-Japanese-English-English-Japanese/dp/4770024800"]Kodansha Furigana Japanese-English/English-Japanese Dictionary[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kodansha-Kanji-Learners-Dictionary-Halpern/dp/4770028555/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b"]Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary[/url]
3. Exceedingly popular among foreign exchange students (though marketed towards Japanese people who are themselves learning Japanese or studying foreign languages), the electronic dictionary is a portable device which comes preloaded with software, and has memory card slots so that you can buy additional software to suit your needs. The "software" tends to be electronic versions of popular paper dictionaries.
Electronic dictionary hardware is updated annually, although there is not usually a lot to differentiate between different years. Recently, models with colour LCD screens have become cheaper and so there are more of those on the market than in previous years when black and white dominated the lower-priced end of the market. The main determinant of cost is the amount of software that comes preloaded with your model, and the higher the price, the more broad the variety of dictionaries included.
(In my Y30,000 electronic dictionary, as well as Japanese and English dictionaries, I also have Kanji dictionaries, an entire section of English conversation dictionaries, a bunch of "lifestyle" software including an encylopedia and more, two guides to childcare (wtf?), several guides to housewifery, medical dictionaries and encyclopedia, etc. Basically shitloads of content that I may never use.)
I don't recommend buying an electronic dictionary outside of Japan. Although it is possible, the choice of models is extremely limited, and you will probably not get your pick of software as you would in a Japanese electronics store. Also, electronic dictionaries are expensive enough without paying extra like you would via an import store!
Popular manufacturers are Canon, Casio, Seiko and Sharp.
As you start learning Japanese, you'll be using Japanese -> English (and English -> Japanese) dictionaries. There are many, ranging from small ones produced by Western publishers (e.g. The Oxford Starter Japanese Dictionary) to large ones produced by Japanese publishers, which I will list below:
研究者新和英大辞典
This comes recommended by Ara, mystes, Keito, and orenronen, and I've never heard of it, so I really feel like I am missing out by not having a copy on my electronic dictionary!
研究社新英和和英中辞典
mystes mentions this below, as a subset of the above dictionary, and notes that it is included in [url="http://www.yahoo.co.jp/"]Yahoo! Japan[/url]'s online dictionary.
ジーニアス英和辞典 (Genius English -> Japanese Dictionary)
プログレッシブ和英中辞典 (Progressive Japanese -> English Dictionary)
The general consensus on the internet seems to be that you should wean yourself off Japanese -> English and English -> Japanese dictionaries as soon as possible, but how are you meant to know how to pick a good Japanese -> Japanese dictionary? The following come recommended by posters in this thread:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Djien"]広辞苑[/url] (こうじえん, kou ji en)
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daijirin"]大辞林[/url] (だいじりん, dai ji rin)
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daijisen"]大辞泉[/url] (だいじせん, dai ji sen)
明鏡 (めいきょう, mei kyou)
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Meikai_kokugo_jiten"]新明解国語辞典[/url] (しんめいかいこくごじてん, shin mei kai koku go ji ten)
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Kokugo_Daijiten"]日本国語大辞典[/url] (にほんこくごだいじてん, ni hon koku go dai ji ten)
4. Smartphone dictionaries.
On the iPhone/iPod there are a few Japanese dictionary apps, and the two most highly commended (to my ears, at least) are [url="http://www.codefromtokyo.com/japanese"]Japanese[/url] and [url="http://kotoba.pierrephi.net/"]Kotoba[/url].
Unfortunately I don't know what equivalent apps are available for Android, though they do exist.
There is more detailed information on dictionaries by mystes [url="http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3438030&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post395652100"]below[/url].
E. Conjugating verbs in Japanese
The textbooks from which I learned Japanese tend to separate Japanese verbs into two groups of regular verbs, and just one irregular verb (which is する・to do). The former are referred to as Group I and Group II verbs, or 1-row and 5-row. Learning most of the verb forms, i.e. dictionary form, polite form, negative form, imperative form, past form, is relatively easy. Learning how to properly use is the only problem with causative, passive, and passive-causative verb forms, in my experience.
I've located a verb conjugation chart! Please visit [url="http://respectthebeard.com/japanese/"]Aeron Buchanan's Japanese Verb Chart[/url] to download.
Next up: some information about adjectives in Japanese (there's two groups, ending in -i or in -na, and the way you follow them in a sentence changes depending on the ending, therefore not so difficult ((apart from memorising whether an adjective is -i or -na when you learn it))).
F. Speaking Japanese
Oh my word! All this information on Japanese without even mention of actually speaking any? Well, let me rectify that.
If you are taking classes, you might have guided instruction on speaking and role-play with fellow students, which is shit because no-one has any confidence whatsoever, but is great for putting you on the spot and forcing you to use what you've just learned.
If you are a self-learner (or even fancy extra speaking practice beyond what you receive in class) then it's worth seeking the Japanese clubs/societies of your local university. At my university there was a Japanese Society which held weekly social events, to which non-students were frequent visitors. These provide an excellent opportunity not only to practice Japanese with native speakers, but also to integrate oneself with the local Japanese community.
In old versions of Skype, you could search for Japanese people and spam them with requests for conversation practice. Skype no longer includes this capability, but there are websites (does anyone have links please?) which you can use to locate Japanese Skype users for this purpose.
G. Pitch accent? Huh? what?
I can't write a good explanation of pitch in Japanese, so I'll defer to seorin:
My Casio EX-word electronic dictionary includes an NHK pronunciation dictionary, in which words are written with lines above them. If the line is flat, the pronunciation is flat; if the line steps up, the pitch of that syllable of the word also steps up, and so on. But I agree with seorin, more fluent foreign speakers of Japanese than I suggest to me that pitch is best picked up subconsciously through massive amounts of exposure to native Japanese TV, radio, etc.
H. How did others in this thread learn Japanese?
Here are some examples from the previous thread:
ii.
[/quote][/quote]
I. What's the [url="http://www.jlpt.jp/e/"]Japanese Language Proficiency Test(JLPT)[/url]?
This is an exam offered around the world which measures your ability to comprehend, but not produce, Japanese. As such, passing it at the highest level doesn't equal being able to speak the language perfectly but if you're studying holistically (learning how to speak, read, write, listen all together) you'll be okay.
The test is offered twice a year in some locations, and once a year in the rest of the world. There are five levels of difficulty, and you can only take one per test session. In my opinion, level N2 is the bare minimum you should apply for, because when you apply for jobs involving Japanese, the recruiter tends to ask for that or higher. I would say levels N3-5 are a cruel attempt to squeeze money out of hapless language students by the administrator of the JLPT.
There are a lot of publishers that offer their own series of textbooks for passing each level of the JLPT, and three of the big ones are 3A Corporation, Unicom, and ASK.
[url="http://www.3anet.co.jp/english/index.html"]Here[/url] is the English-language website of 3A Corporation, who publish the 完全マスター series of JLPT-preparation books.
[url="http://unicom-lra.co.jp/indexe.html"]Here[/url] is Unicom's English-language homepage, and they publish the 実力アップ！ series, which I think are the best-selling JLPT study guides.
The online store for ASK's 日本語総まとめ series for the JLPT is [url="http://www.ask-shop.net/shopbrand/042/002/X/brandname/"]here[/url]. As Reverend Cheddar says in the quote below, for grammar, this comes highly recommended because each Japanese sentence is accompanied by an English translation, which comes in handy when you encounter a new grammar pattern and need to get your head around it. Although I think the N1 books in this series do not include English translations of example sentences...
Generally the three publishers offer study guides for grammar (文法), reading comprehension (読解), Kanji (漢字）, listening comprehension (聴解), and vocabulary (語彙).
These are aimed at people taking the JLPT but they make a good intermediate-to-advanced level of learning material for everyone.
The following point by Reverend Cheddar is worth mentioning:
Should I take the JLPT?
I refer you to one pro-JLPT and one anti-JLPT argument from the previous thread, plus something quirky:
J. Resources:
[url="http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan"]Rikaichan[/url]
Rikaichan is an add-on for Mozilla Firefox which displays the pronunciation and meaning of a Japanese word if you hover over it with your cursor, and is probably the first thing any aspiring Japanese language learner should get. Dictionaries now available for English, German, French, Russian, Thai and Vietnamese.
[url="http://code.google.com/p/rikaikun/"]Rikaikun[/url]
Rikaikun is a version of Rikaichan, for Google Chrome.
[url="http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about"]All Japanese All The Time (AJATT)[/url]
Khatzumoto, the man behind this site (and method) purports to have become fluent in Japanese in 18 months (fluent enough to sound Japanese over the phone and get through an interview to land a job in Japan as a computer programmer). Let's take everything he says with a giant hunk of salt...
His blog is worth a read, though, for advice, inspiration, ideas, links, and interesting source material, and he deserves a mention.
[url="http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar"]Tae Kim's Guide to Learning Japanese[/url]
Tae Kim wrote an awesome guide to Japanese grammar, and a lot of people seem to find it more useful than beginner's textbooks. It's free, so you can go and give it a try before investing in any yourself.
[url="http://www.tofugu.com/"]Tofugu[/url]
[url="http://nihongoperapera.com/"]NihongoPeraPera[/url]
[url="http://www.nihongojouzu.com/"]Nihongojouzu[/url]
The above three sites are all interesting and useful to Japanese learners, and the first even to people only interested in Japanese culture.
[url="http://kanji.koohii.com/"]Reviewing the Kanji[/url]
RtK is designed to be used in conjunction with Remembering the Kanji volume 1. It is an online flashcard/Spaced Repetition System application for reviewing the kanji you have learned so far in the book, and has a lot of cool features, like a list of stories for remembering a character that other users came up with themselves, and a helpful forum very much like this thread but massive-er.
[url="http://www.fnn-news.com/"]Fuji News Network[/url]
If you're interested in watching the news in Japanese, this site is handy.
You see the garbled text below the slideshow too? It took me AGES to figure this out, but if you click on that garbled text, you are taken to that particular news story with a full Japanese transcription of the video! Combined with Rikaichan, you can follow along with the news in Japanese!
[url="http://lang-8.com/"]lang-8[/url] is a site where you can write a diary in the language you are trying to learn, and any mistakes will be corrected by native speakers.
http://www.japanesepod101.com/ is a podcast for learning Japanese.
http://www.nhk.or.jp/r-news/ is also a podcast, which lets you select the speed of playback. I can't get it to work in Firefox for Mac 
gra has some input on Japanese-language websites that intermediate users may progress to once they get to the stage where they want some native language source material:
Quote:Here are some random social news type sites that I read since that seems to be what people are looking for -
Websites -
http://www.kotaku.jp/ (yeah whatever, it's got a good collection of fairly short articles about stuff the average goon will find interesting)
http://news.2chblog.jp/ (you can take or leave the comments, has lots of pictures too which is less daunting than a huge block of text which puts me off even English internet reading)
http://umashika-news.jp/ as above
http://b.hatena.ne.jp/ & http://newsing.jp/ (more Digg-like than the above)
Podcasts -
http://www.kjp.konami.jp/gs/hideoblog/ (there's an awesome Suda51 radio drama version of Snatcher at the moment)
http://www.avanti-web.com/ (this always cracks me up, I don't know why. They just have a random guest come on and pretend to having a casual chat in a bar complete with a somebody playing the waiter and fake clinking glass sound effects etc.)
http://www.tbsradio.jp/kakiiin/hono...88;relationship advice, I find it quite easy to understand)
Books/manga/games other -
Murakami/Radio - a book of short (3 page) essays about all sorts of things, if anybody else knows of books like this that would be great
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%9D%91%E...16374324&sr=8-1
逆転裁判 - Manga/game series, I've actually found these really helpful for understanding the news as there's a lot of dialogue to do with courts, witnesses, victims etc. and no furigana.
Also a third recommendation for kanji damage over RTK, though kanji damage only covers about 1700 kanji which always seemed weird to me - if you've put in so much work why not just go for the whole 常用？
K. Want to order books from Japan? Or trouble finding books mentioned in this OP or later in this thread on your country's Amazon site? Read this helpful post by [b]darkgray[/b]:
Quote:I don't know where you live, either, so it's hard to recommend the best store for you. Personally I'm in Europe, and have ordered literally thousands of books/manga from Amazon Japan. They have an enormous inventory, extremely fast delivery, and are reliable. Shipping is expensive, though. Lately I've started using BK1, because they provide a lot more options for shipping.
More details about shipping costs:
Amazon Japan takes a minimum of 3400 yen ($39) per shipment, and an additional 300 yen ($3.3) per item, which means ordering 1 book = 3700 yen ($42) just for shipping! Delivery time 3-5 days.
BK1 charges depending on weight with no minimum charge, estimating 200 grams per book, which using the SAL method means 1 book = 280 yen ($3.2) for shipping. Delivery time 1-11 weeks!
It's clear to see that you save enormous amounts of money by going with BK1, but it isn't always this clear-cut. Shipping via SAL means you have no way to track your shipment, and delivery time can be very unreliable, so you may be checking your mailbox furiously before eventually being lucky enough to find something in it. There's also no insurance, so if the package is lost, you're most likely screwed. Having said that, the two times I've ordered, I've received my packages in exactly two weeks.
It gets even more complicated from here on. Since BK1 charges depending on the weight of your package, the contents of your order have a big effect on the shipping cost, and can be hard to guess before they've actually packaged everything and sent it out.
Sample weights:
* 12 kokki 1 - 188g [light novel]
* Bakemonogatari 1 - 402g [light novel]
* Brave Story 1 - 227g [light novel]
* Gosicks 1 - 180g [light novel]
* Toradora 1 - 155g [light novel]
* Dragonball (Perfect Edition) 01 - 435g [manga]
* Major 01 - 161g [manga]
* Please Save My Earth (Perfect Edition) 01 - 697g [manga]
So as an extreme example, if you were to buy the entire PSME series from BK1 in one go, your package would weigh 10*697g = 6970g which is about 7000 yen ($79)!
Compare this with Amazon Japan, where you would be charged 3400+10*300 = 6400 yen ($72) and be reimbursed if it was lost.
In general, I'd recommend BK1 for orders up to 15 items, and Amazon on orders of more than 15 items. Note that the prices will differ somewhat if you live outside Europe.
L. Aaand finally, I'll leave you with this:
This guy, over at Reviewing the Kanji's forum, said:
Quote:Drawing inspiration from AJATT and, upon beginning to use RTK, the posts and users on this forum, I dove into native material beginning my second year of Japanese study and never looked back. (I'm not usually one to post on forums, however. :])
With a few months to go in my third year of study I was feeling good about my progress and took the JLPT for the first time.
N1
Vocabulary: 57/60
Reading: 52/60
Listening: 60/60
Overall: 169/180
Now I can begin learning Japanese.
This guy (claims to have) passed JLPT in just over two years of study, although further posts by him/her allude to making Japanese part of one's life (kind of like the approach suggested by All Japanese All The Time in my Resources section above. I include this quote to say that you too can do the same!
(Even after 7 years of study, with 6 months in Kyushu and 4 years of study as a minor at university including a full year of study abroad in Tokyo, I still narrowly failed JLPT 2級 3 times, so remember, learning Japanese successfully is about applying a sustained effort with no long breaks in learning or using your Japanese)"
When we let go of who we are, we become who we might be.
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