Post: #1676

(08-31-2016 12:42 AM)rawbeefcake Wrote:  DTD309 & The Lizard of Oz: Thanks for the advice, I'm kicking off my dry year as of the 1st September. I'm only in mid-twenties but have been drinking on most Friday and Saturday nights for what feels like a long time now. Not too concerned about it but it feels as though its become an unwanted habit: I start with 1 drink over dinner and end up drinking alone at the end of the night when my wife has already gone to sleep.

rawbeefcake, thanks for the post. Just to confirm, you are in for a full year as of September 1, 2016?

Post: #1677

(08-30-2016 10:02 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  DTD309, I feel that the next time you post in this thread should be when you announce your new start date. It's probably best not to post here when you're drinking.

You know what you need to do; your own posts testify to that. Have your farewell drinks and come back here when you're ready to do it.

I hear you. Good luck, all -

DTD

Post: #1678

I was just going through my old notes from a couple of years ago, and found this relevant gem. These are not my words but those of someone who's traveled much further down the road than I; they were in response to another person saying how empty they felt after embarking upon an abstinence challenge similar to the wagon.

Quote:What you are feeling is the gnawing, clutching, glossy black emptiness that comes with living a life without ever coming to terms with who YOU are. 
I’ve felt it before, and it took, I remember clearly, an entire 4 months of living by myself, isolated from the world, to overcome it. You don’t realize how dependent you are on the shiny things that define your life and your identity as a man till you strip them of that right.
 
You are not your relationship, you are not your income, you are not your success, so what are you?

Most men go through life from one dependent phase to the next. Mother to wife, or money to drugs, alcohol to cigarettes, some thing or another that always gets replaced by something else just as well suited to keep the carrot in front of them.

This emptiness that your feeling… be thankful for it. The plug has finally been punctured and you have an opportunity to feel liberated, truly liberated, in a way that very few people will get to share. 
The chains that have always held you back, the things you have always reflected on for purpose, they are gone, and you’re now thinking “what was the purpose of all that?” and without a relationship to run back to, you’re finally facing the world for what it is.

Most men come to this point and then choose to run back to the next womb they see. As always, they will seek a false sense of security and comfort over challenge and fulfillment. A handful will refuse re-enslavement and will continue to step forward. The choice of which group to go in is yours, as it always has been.

You will feel profoundly different when you face this, overcome it, and then move on past it to a relationship and successful career, versus running away from it towards a relationship and successful career. You’ll know the difference, trust me.

Pledging yourself to a year long commitment may seem daunting and/or excessively long, and once you've gotten over the initial determination to quit and kicked the habit of drinking, you'll find yourself getting bored in the evenings questioning the point of complete abstinence and think, a beer or two occasionally wouldn't really hurt. But if you've pledged to the wagon, just shake the boredom off and turn your attention to more fruitful pursuits.

For people much earlier in the wagon, in the process of getting over their drinking habits, just grin and bear through the hard times and even if the alcohol pangs don't really disappear completely, you will get better at controlling the urges and it will get easier over time.

___

Another (slightly unrelated) thing worth mentioning is the womb complex the poster speaks about -- too often people replace one addiction with another, or one <security> with another. I initially started smoking again when I stopped drinking just to cope with the pangs, but this is a pyrrhic victory at best, not just because you're simply replacing one bad habit with another (or one girl with another, or one distraction with another...anything to distract the mind and avoid staring into the abyss for too long lest it reveal some uncomfortable truths about oneself).

At the end, the root of the problem isn't really solved, you've just replaced your response to it with something else (which could, in rare circumstances, be a constructive habit). Therefore, as soon the problem rears its head in another form, you risk reverting back to the old running-back-into-the-security-of-the-womb behavior. I'd recommend quitting cold turkey, and dealing with the consequences as and how they manifest themselves.

Also, 10 months clocking in.

Post: #1679

W, a few things to say about this post.

What you post says, in brief, is this: people develop bad habits (such as drinking, smoking, other addictions/dependencies etc) because they have an underlying hidden "problem" that they are trying to escape from -- invariably, a psychological problem of some sort. The main reason to give up these bad habits is that by stripping them away you can come face to face with who you "really are" and realize -- through introspection that you were always trying to hide from -- some "uncomfortable truths" about yourself. Once you've processed these "truths" and have come out the other side, you emerge a wiser and stronger man and can go on with the rest of your life, because you are now at peace with who you "really are" and are no longer hiding.

This is a venerable trope, revered by Hollywood and even more so by what one might call serious TV. But I believe it to be entirely misguided, in two basic ways:

First, in most cases, bad habits -- such as hard drinking, in particular -- are not our way of escaping from some hidden psychological problem. They themselves are the problem and the cause -- not the effect -- of many serious problems. Extremely well-designed and thorough studies of hard drinkers and alcoholics -- some of the only really good "studies" out there -- have shown that these men do indeed have all sorts of problems, but these problems are the effect of hard drinking, not its cause. Prior to being hard drinkers, these men are not more troubled, on the whole, than others; it is only after years of hard drinking that many very serious problems, both physical and psychological, come to the fore.

The same is true of failings of various other kinds: the cliche is that of a man who takes to the bottle after he's lost his job, been betrayed by his wife, and so on. While that does happen occasionally, the sequence is more often the reverse one: the man loses his job or fails at his relationship because his bad habits have progressed so far that they are impairing his ability to function in society, in either subtle or obvious ways. The chain of causality mainly proceeds from the bad habit to its deleterious consequences, not the other way around. Even when the bad habit was initially formed as a response to some real or perceived calamity, its consequences are often longer-lasting and more significant than that initial cause.

We are too eager for purely psychological explanations, and give insufficient credence to very simple mechanical or biochemical ones. The malaise experienced by the man who drinks to excess, takes other drugs, or otherwise abandons himself to bad physical habits, is not some psychological substrate that these habits are meant to hide or distract from; more often than not, it is the direct or indirect effect of those very habits. And the prescription is also a simple one: remove the bad habits and replace them with good ones, and so many of these supposedly deep or hidden problems will simply go away.

We want to give our problems the prestige of being deep and hidden, and regard our habits -- the day to day physical texture of our lives -- as relative trivia, at worst a distraction that keeps us from seeing ourselves as we truly are. But this is not so. We are our habits, to a very large extent. Change these habits -- really change them, in a gritty way that takes the kind of perseverance that most men lack -- and you change a great deal about how you feel about your life every day; and what had seemed an intractable problem is not even "solved", it simply falls away as something that is no longer of use or relevance.

A related point is this: it is quite true that a man who gives up drinking will often feel extended periods of emptiness, boredom, and what I like to call fallowness -- I have written about this often in this thread. And it is also quite true that these periods represent a great opportunity. But this is not for the reasons that you might think.

The opportunity is not to get in touch with oneself, with your ineffable inner core. That is indeed what men will try to do -- they will turn inward and they will seek self-definition and self-knowledge of one kind or another. But what they will discover if they are honest -- and that is really the great opportunity -- is that these things come to an end very quickly. The self -- any self -- is a quite limited sphere; there is really not that much there. Your emptiness and boredom when you are left alone with yourself are well-justified; you are a boring subject. Introspection has its uses but they are rapidly exhausted. And what then?

Then -- perhaps -- you might remember that there is a whole world of things outside the self; otherwise known as life, or the world. And once you've exhausted every other possibility, you just might, out of utter boredom, desultoriness, and the belligerence of having nothing better to do and nowhere else to turn to, actually check out that world outside the self. You might sit on a bench one day in the late summer, completely dry, completely done with all the things that have preoccupied you for so long and so uselessly, and simply look out, in a very pure way; look out with a slug's or lizard's eye, an eye that is ready to take it all in because it's got nowhere else to turn to.

And it's then -- at that humble moment -- that the real opportunity presents itself. Because the world outside the self is, in fact, the source of all interest, variety, knowledge, of the greatest and deepest pains and pleasures. And there is nothing that makes, over time, for a more enjoyable and interesting and fulfilling life than turning away from the depredations of the self and turning towards the world, in a modest attitude of relaxed concentration. There is beautiful comedy in this conjunction: when a man is so stupefied, so dully and completely bored out of his mind, that in his exasperation he turns to the source of endless depth and interest that was there all along, always there for the taking but seemingly too mundane and modest to ever take notice of until there was literally no other choice. That is what the wagon can do, for those who are willing to follow the trail all the way to the desert, and past it.

Post: #1680

Been sleeping with a bottle of sherry behind me for the last Month,Haven t touched it.
Hell I even watched my bird take shot on front of me without trying to take a sip myself. I'm quite surprised at myself.

Post: #1681

I visited the Van Gogh museum today in Amsterdam and kept thinking about how this guy could have benefited from the Full Mormon and some Bright Light Therapy. He seemed to have the kind of sensitive mind talked about in this thread and was seriously abusing caffeine and alcohol. Also could have used a dose of the red pill since he kept falling in love with prostitutes.

Post: #1682

I fell off the wagon a little over halfway through the year... made it to that state of boredom, but never looked out...


If the Wagon Challenge will have me on board I'm in for a full year effective 9/7/2016.

Post: #1683

Oz your post is one of the most interesting things that I have read this year.Thank you. In Mans Search for Meaning Viktor Frankl proposes that boredom is the biggest cause of unhappiness.

Post: #1684

(09-06-2016 11:14 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  The opportunity is not to get in touch with oneself, with your ineffable inner core. That is indeed what men will try to do -- they will turn inward and they will seek self-definition and self-knowledge of one kind or another. But what they will discover if they are honest -- and that is really the great opportunity -- is that these things come to an end very quickly. The self -- any self -- is a quite limited sphere; there is really not that much there. Your emptiness and boredom when you are left alone with yourself are well-justified; you are a boring subject. Introspection has its uses but they are rapidly exhausted. And what then?

This is the best post I've read all day.

Lizard, who ARE you? Are you some kind of wise monk or sherpa here to guide us up the mountain?

Post: #1685

(09-07-2016 10:04 AM)etwsake Wrote:  This is the best post I've read all day.

Lizard, who ARE you? Are you some kind of wise monk or sherpa here to guide us up the mountain?

Rather not know.

Those whom the appearance of virtue or the evidence of genius has tempted to a nearer knowledge of the writer, in whose performances they may be found, have indeed had frequent reason to repent their curiosity; the bubble that sparkled before them has become common water at the touch; the phantom of perfection has vanished when they wished to press it to their bosom."

Samuel Johnson, Rambler #14

Post: #1686

(09-07-2016 07:56 AM)Baldwin81 Wrote:  I fell off the wagon a little over halfway through the year... made it to that state of boredom, but never looked out...


If the Wagon Challenge will have me on board I'm in for a full year effective 9/7/2016.

Baldwin81, thanks for the post -- I've been wondering about what's been going on with you.

Maybe next time when you are some months in -- and the initial decision seems abstract and remote, while the next drink seems very tangible and near to hand -- just remember to come back to this thread and re-read some of your own posts here, and maybe some others that you found of interest. There is a point when you simply have to remember that you made a solemn decision, and you're going to stick to it no matter how you feel at the moment.

Welcome back aboard as of September 7, 2016 and I hope to hear more from you here as time goes on.

Post: #1687

I got drunk at a festival with my girlfriend a month back.. started multiple fights. Almost got arrested. Embarassing letting her see me weak like that, out of control and unable to control my impulses.

I wish i was the funny party clown when im drunk. But im not. I make fun of people in a bad way. Make people feel bad. I turn into a raging asshole and hurt everyone around me, friends or stangers, doesent matter. Alcohol turns me into a man i dont even know who is. A man that i dont want to be. its gotten to the point where ive started hating myself for it. Its gotta stop. I pledge that from this day on till a year from now I wont be touching alcohol. Thanks for making this thread and sharing guys, good to know im not alone in this

Post: #1688

I read this and just feel lucky.. I have pretty much no temptation for alcohol, the only time I'll have a drink is if others are drinking, I'll go along with them, but I get something good tasting and sip it, typically ending a night with at most 2 drinks (assuming we're out for 3-4 hours or more).

I definitely spent at least 9-10 months 100% sober without even intending to, my friend was a former alcoholic so he didn't drink, so we just went out and macked on girls and just got a coke, water, or club soda (typically free as well). I started dating a girl who enjoyed wine though so I didn't make it a full year.

Now my fault would be more likely games... I don't think I could do that. Period.

Post: #1689

How do you guys handle social situations when on the wagon?
I always feel awkward when I'm invited a drink for Finnishing a job and take the alcohol free beer and don't always feel like telling the story of how I went to get an organ analysis after a scare

Post: #1690

I just completed a one-year drinking wagon.

Although I never announced my decision to go on a wagon, I had hinted it on my Freeletics thread.

I didn’t announce my decision on this thread because I didn’t think I would be able to complete a full year without drinking.

I’m writing this post because I owe a “thank you” to The Lizard of Oz. One year of abstinence is a genius idea. The idea of a one-year wagon resonated with me because I had an 8-month wagon when I was doing my military service 18 years ago (it’s compulsory in my country), and after that 8 months I simply didn’t want to drink. Since I finished my wagon just today, I don’t know this one-year wagon will have the same effect as my 8-month wagon.

My other reasons for riding a one-year wagon were:
1) Getting in excellent shape and building muscle
2) Expanding my business

I achieved both of my objectives.

The funny thing is, I started and finished my wagon at the same weight. My waist is 4 inches smaller now though, which means that I managed to put on about 20 pounds of muscle. Some of that muscle came from muscle memory. I trained hard and put on some extra muscle too.

I never missed a training session, which would not be possible if I wasn’t on the wagon.

I was surprised to discover that alcohol was not the only enemy of a flat stomach. I had thought if I didn’t drink beer, I would not need to do anything else to burn off my belly fat. Call me naïve but I really thought this way. It turned out that I still needed to watch what I eat if I wanted to be in excellent shape. So, quitting alcohol didn’t directly solve my fat problems but allowed me search for other ways to cut the extra fat in my body. Since I am in excellent shape right now, my problem is solved in one way or another. I’m delighted with this.

Expanding my business was my other challenge.

I discovered the same thing as Beyond Borders. Alcohol was not the only cause of my procrastination problem. I thought I would start working like crazy as soon as I stopped drinking. However, I struggled with procrastination problems for the first 6 months of the wagon. I didn’t do any meaningful work for the first 6 months. I spent this period mostly with panicking as I watched my earnings dwindle and trying to solve my procrastination problem.

I was persistent though. I read many books and I tried various methods to overcome my procrastination problem. I finally cracked it around 6 months into the wagon. I spent the last 6 months increasingly productive. My productivity increased day by day until the very end of my wagon. So, again, wagon helped solve my another major problem.

My desire for sex didn’t change much during the wagon. The quality of my erections massively increased though. Sex was more enjoyable as a result.

I don’t know the wagon’s effect on my game. I spent the entire year training and working, so I didn’t have much chance to test my game. Since I got in shape and put on muscle, my attractiveness skyrocketed though. I noticed a significant increase in the IOIs I receive.

I visited my country (Turkey) on June, after 2.5 years. People said I looked younger than before. This was -of course- because of the wagon. Directly because I didn’t have the bloating and other health effects of alcohol, indirectly because I trained, dieted and got in shape.

Another thing I am glad is I didn’t have any fights with my girlfriend all throughout the wagon. While I was drinking, I was amplifying little problems and starting fights over them. Not drinking made me a calmer person.

TLOZ once said “once the idea of the wagon takes root in a man's mind, it is not so easily dislodged and its (seemingly less than seductive) appeal tends to grow stronger over time.”

This turned out to be accurate for me. I had been following the thread for about a year before I decided to give it a shot and jump on the wagon. I am happy I did.

I already thanked TLOZ for his genius idea. I also want to thank Bacon, Beyond Borders, Fisto and others who completed the wagon and encouraged me to do it.

Good luck to all who are and who will be on the wagon.

Post: #1691

dies irae, thank you for this post and congrats. And a +1 rep point from me.

Post: #1692

I thought I would report in because I'm just coming up to the weekend when last September, I decided (once again hungover in an airport) that I didn't want to drink any more.

You might remember that I had a few drinks as an experiment in early February and that's the official date that I gave to LOZ but this coming weekend really marks the day that I just got fed up with all the pain and decided to stop.

In this period, quite a bit has changed. I am doing the full Mormon and one of the biggest changes has been to my general wellbeing through giving up coffee. The coffee in the past was to get me up and going from the hangovers from the night before. The constant Caffine kept my nervous system on edge and used to give me the most debilitating tension headaches. These are now gone.

In terms of the changes gone through since I stopped, I guess the main one is health. In common with the excellent post by dies irae above, I'm still a similar weight by the bloating has gone from my face and the general inflammation caused by abusing my body for so long has gone. Stuff doesn't hurt anymore. I too notice more and I specifically am noticing more and more girls in the street making eye contact and checking me out. This never used to happen before and I wonder if it's something to do with the way I now carry myself, or my general alertness, or the clarity in the colour of my eyes. Perhaps good reproductive health is sensed on an animal level.

I've managed to father a child in this period of time too, I'm expecting a girl in January and I'm pretty much looking forward to it. Not that I'll be letting any of the fine gents from this forum anywhere near her in 18 years time

I've managed to buy an apartment in a place that I've always wanted to live and I'm looking out of the window of it now and appreciating the nature all around me.

My various businesses are going well, I'm particularly proud of the ambition that I've shown for one of them which I've started from an idea and managed to get a product made in China which is almost ready. This might not sound like much but back in the drinking days, things like this would have got in the way of drinking and remained an idea.

I've lost a lot of friends, who in hindsight, were only drinking friends, there for the free rounds that I would buy to encourage people to stay and drink with me, I'm less social but when I am dragged out into social occasions, I'm really very very good, I can hold conversations better, think on my feet, charm people.

My relationship with my woman is better. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have been together and be waiting for this baby if I hadn't have stopped drinking. My mood swings were pretty bad and were pushing her away.

I also have more disposable income and I'm not under the same financial pressure that I've been since I moved out here to a ski village years ago. In hindsight, I was drinking all my money.

I don't have much preachy advice to give to those reading this, just a thank you for all those that went before me for sharing your thoughts. This thread was one of the first I found when I was considering quitting drinking, which led me to Rvf and game. Both have helped me immensely and if this post can encourage others, so be it.

I'm convinced that you have to be ready to quit though. My moment was that time in Barcelona airport waiting for a flight hungover to fuck. Again.

Post: #1693

Hey guys, does anyone with experience in going out again sober? Does it get easier as the amount of times you do it? Just like with AA its never completely goes away but it is suppressed the more often you approach. Same with sober nightlife?

Thanks

Post: #1694

Closing in on 1 year without smoking, and 9 months without a drink. I was tested well this summer and powered through. I can't wait to tell you guys all the major changes that have occurred in my life. Stay tuned, as January 1st is one year and after that I'll write something up for everyone to share my experiences.

Post: #1695

(09-18-2016 03:39 AM)-eWf Wrote:  Hey guys, does anyone with experience in going out again sober? Does it get easier as the amount of times you do it? Just like with AA its never completely goes away but it is suppressed the more often you approach. Same with sober nightlife?

Thanks

In my experience, it's like having superpowers. Being ahead of the game in conversation, being able to steer any conversation with someone who is drunk in exactly the direction you want it.

However, it's boring as hell watching other people get hammered. I have about a 2 hour tolerance for it.

Post: #1696

Yes, what Ski Pro says.

At first I find this inner smugness at watching people cross the various thresholds of drunkenness. But usually by the two hour mark, when everyone is pretty good and hammered, they get loud, repetitive, and annoying. Some nights are better than others...if I'm having a good time I can stay out for hours. When people start knocking things over, telling stories I've heard a million times, getting sloppy; that's when I just bail and go home.

Post: #1697

Two months off the booze and the caffeine now, drinking non alcoholic beer,its great for post work out

Post: #1698

final week, rolling, rolling.

Post: #1699

I am only on Day 4, but I feel great, no cravings or DT's. I had to drive a friend to the airport Sunday night so I had to stay sober all day Sunday. During that day I had an epiphany or what AA likes to call-a moment of clarity. I finally admitted to myself I was just comitting slow suicide. I asked myself, "Why are you trying to kill yourself? You love yourself, damn, your enamored with yourself." I realized that while I haven't shown signs the health risks of long term alcoholism they surely must be around the corner, and while the liver can regenerate itself it needs some part of it to not be scarred by cirrhosis. I decide to quit while I was ahead. I am in this for the long haul, too. I know that once I get to a certain point, not drinking will just become my norm as opposed to being a functioning, working alkie all day. I am thinking of starting my own journal to chronicle some of my more personal revelations, but I will be sure to post those that I think will benefit others.

Post: #1700

AFter two months of quitting booze,observations:


-increased libido and sexual performance
-over all increased stamina (I do extensive cardio and I easilynoted the edge I got)
-Actually being able to cross the booze section of a supermarket without taking anything or feeling the need to
-Am savingsome money



Most of my drinking has stuck to rather abusive though noto verly dramatic consumption of beer and wine and only occassioanly spirits so that might have made it easier to quit?
(Getting ready for an interview and checkup might have had an additional effectthough!)