Post: #526

(04-28-2016 05:35 PM)RedPillUK Wrote:  

(04-28-2016 04:38 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  ...
An elementary/basic grammar book for ESL/EFL students will cover many of these points, although without the kind of technical language that teachers are expected to grasp. For example, Basic Grammar in Use, intended for self-study. There's a UK version and a US version. There are also several standard books for teachers. Your CELTA course will probably provide you with a list. The book by Marion Parrott is often mentioned (Grammar for English Language Teachers). There are certainly a lot of web sites for learners where grammar is presented in a piecemeal fashion (stackexchange and wordreference have forums where you can ask questions), but I think it makes more sense to follow the kind of methodical and consistent sequence that you get from a solid textbook such as the ones recommended on your course.

Remember that you don't need to be an expert on grammar to get into a CELTA course. They do, however, want to see what background, if any, you already have, and they expect that you are already familiar with grammatical terms such as 'present perfect' and 'conjunction'. I think you'll find that your CELTA classmates already know these things and perhaps a lot more. It's better to research them for your pre-course application or questionnaire rather than to wing it by making up answers based on your hunches as a native speaker.

Good luck!

Wow, thank you for the excellent advice. It looks like I have a lot to learn. I've applied and I have an interview coming up in four days, so I will be looking at books like the ones you have mentioned and referring to this post to see if I've actually learned the things you've pointed out here.

The CELTA was definitely one of the most intense courses I have ever been through but well worth it. Good luck man and tell us how it goes.

Post: #527

Thanks Raul, alright I can tell you how it's gone so far.

I've sent in my application, had a skype interview and have been accepted onto the course. I put on some smart clothes, set up my laptop webcam in a place with good lighting, and then only went on the skype camera for a second to show some ID before turning it off.

I spent a lot of time going over basic grammar in the days leading up to the interview. I went over the different types of tenses and similiar things like that. It helped a lot, otherwise I would have been completely clueless answering the grammar questions I was given.

However because the knowledge was still fresh in my mind, it wasn't really all there and it felt like when you'd have to answer questions at school when you only sort of know the answer. I was racking my brain to remember the things I had 'learnt' only a day or two ago.

It didn't matter, it impressed the interviewer/course tutor enough that she accepted me on the course. The interview took about 35 minutes and I probably only spoke for 5 minutes in total. Most of the time she was giving me questions and then explaining how the course is structured.

Now I've got a month to do the precourse task and study some books on teaching english, that's not too difficult for me. I don't have any classroom teaching experience, only private tutoring, so I think this will be an area I need to focus on before doing this course.
From my research, it looks like this is a really important part of the course.

I want to go all out and impress in my first lesson I teach so that positive first impression puts me on my way to the top mark on the course. I need to work on my public speaking and lesson plans/ideas. I'm thinking about practising my English teaching skills on some Mexican chicas I have met and I'm even reading Suit's suit guide for some style tips in hot weather. Most of us on RVF see how presentation, charisma and presence matters, so I want to use that to give me an extra edge over everyone.

Post: #528

(05-05-2016 07:33 AM)RedPillUK Wrote:  I want to go all out and impress in my first lesson I teach so that positive first impression puts me on my way to the top mark on the course. I need to work on my public speaking and lesson plans/ideas. I'm thinking about practising my English teaching skills on some Mexican chicas I have met and I'm even reading Suit's suit guide for some style tips in hot weather. Most of us on RVF see how presentation, charisma and presence matters, so I want to use that to give me an extra edge over everyone.

I recommend just trying to get through the course. That will be challenging enough. Do exactly what you're told and integrate the feedback you receive into your remaining TPs (Teaching Practice) on the course. Don't try to be creative or think for yourself. The tutors actually prefer someone they can easily mold over someone who enters the course with traditional (i.e., outdated, in their view) ideas about language teaching. On my course, those who came in with experience and who were the most visibly comfortable in front of students received the harshest feedback and marks from the trainers/tutors.

Yes, presentation matters -- speak slowly and clearly, be prepared, shower, don't dress like a backpacker -- but charisma is not what the trainers are looking for. You want to have a professional, somewhat aloof (not overly friendly) rapport with your students. The philosophy is: you are not an entertainer nor a 'sage on the stage' but rather a 'guide on the side'. After your course, once you are in front of real, paying students, you can do what works best for you, your students and your school, but during your CELTA training, you should imitate your trainers and those CELTA trainees who are receiving the most positive feedback from the trainers.

Also, I don't see much of a concrete, market benefit in getting top marks in CELTA. The point is to get the qualification. In any event, the large majority of CELTA trainees receive a mark of Pass, no higher.

Finally, don't worry if you're a sucky teacher on the course and your students learn little. They are typically receiving this instruction without cost and they know you are in training. If they want experienced teachers, they can pay for it. The CELTA course is for you, not them.

Post: #529

Thanks again for your advice ElFlaco. The course will be my only focus once I start, I'm just thinking of things I can do before the course.

Post: #530

(05-05-2016 11:23 AM)RedPillUK Wrote:  Thanks again for your advice ElFlaco. The course will be my only focus once I start, I'm just thinking of things I can do before the course.

Read the grammar textbook, and perhaps more importantly, the teaching methodology textbook, before the course starts.

Do things exactly their way. In the real world of TEFL one does not need to follow the CELTA methodology. But in the CELTA, you must do it precisely their way. Record your lessons, audio if not video. You can critique yourself and improve faster. You also can prove your case to Cambridge, if need be, if you think you delivered a passable lesson but they found it "not to standard."

I would have failed the CELTA, honestly, if I didn't rise to the occasion and kick ass on my lesson where the auditor was there (the official representative of Cambridge who comes to each CELTA course to make sure they are doing things right). When he saw me- the one about to fail- give a better lesson than the supposed "better" candidates, then those teaching the course basically shat a brick, and no one failed. I think I played a big part in that.

Post: #531

I'm teaching in a Middle School in China at the moment, and I'm honestly having a really good time.

The school is great, but unfortunately the location isn't so shall be changing after this semester. The pay is decent. And I've easily saved £350 this month while still having fun and meeting people.

There are lots of moments where China really pisses me off, nothing major just tons of little things and the Chinese can either be really friendly or the fucking rudest uncultured people on the fucking planet.

Post: #532

I have experience here. South Korea is an easy place to get a job provided you have a BA, at the very least and a passport from an Anglophone nation.

Some arrive on a tourist visa and scout out opportunities. You can stay in what is called a "yogwan," basically a furnished room with a bathroom and no kitchen while you look around.

There are recruiters and you can search them online, but they can be dodgy. Warning: there are a lot of scams in South Korea! If you do get a reputable employer, the pay is decent, you get a free apartment and you can save.

Personally I would recommend going to South Korea with a master's degree as you are eligible for university posts. Most people with just a BA work in "hogwans," essentially cram institutes that have you teaching all ages six days a week. They prefer to hire the very young as most people don't have the stamina after a certain age and are unwilling to be exploited.

Korea has great cuisine, generous people, beautiful women, a lot of travel opportunities for Japan and the Philippines, a big drinking culture, and a huge party scene in Seoul.

Downsides: Seoul is expensive, polluted, and has ugly architecture. It is one of the most unromantic cities around.

Post: #533

Misprint

Post: #534

(01-11-2016 11:41 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(01-05-2016 05:09 PM)tattiemasher Wrote:  I'm tempted to stop off on the way and do a CELTA somewhere cheaper like Thailand, Vietnam or Indonesia, angle for a job at the place for a year, and make the move after that. Anyone done a CELTA in places like these and know if it's easy to pick up a reasonably paid job at the end of the course?

There are no good paying jobs in the ESL industry. There are jobs that pay horribly and jobs that pay OK. The jobs that pay OK are rarely advertised and they generally recruit through their network of contacts. These jobs are rare enough that they can have their pick of the litter.

The jobs that are advertised that you can pick up when you are starting out pay terribly. They'll impose a 400% markup on what they are paying you and put 300% in their own pocket.

Getting a CELTA probably won't change this, at least in China. Even with high demand, the market is so saturated with competitors that there is an upper limit to what people will pay for English lessons. They pay teachers according to this. They do not care how good you are or how much better you are than other teachers. They will pay you no more than the losers, with or without extra qualifications.

The ESL industry is a minimum requirement industry. They aren't looking for the best teacher they can get. They have a set budget and they want they best teacher they can get while paying nothing more than standard industry salaries, which are pretty pathetic.

Here in Beijing, for a full time job, the industry standard is $36K USD annually.

$36K USD annually in Beijing is barely enough to make ends meet. And good luck paying for an emergency root canal with a dentist who actually speaks English.

Unless you live in the middle of no where, you'll be paying $7K per year to live in a tiny bedroom with two or three other people sharing the same flat. You'll pay a minimum $12K per year to have your own place that isn't substandard.

Sure, that leaves at least $24K left over, which might seem like a lot, but that has to pay for all your food, transportation costs, entertainment. You won't own a car, which is fine when you are a year or two out of university, but have fun living like a teenager when you are in your thirties. Keep in mind that just simply going out for a dinner date followed by a venue change and cocktails in Beijing is going to run you $40. If you do this with a different girl every week for a year, that's going to cost you $2000 annually. Now you are down to $22K and wonder if it's time to join Team No-Appetizers.

If you live cheaply, you could actually save a lot of cash, but you could do the same living with mom and dad for 5 years and living at McDonalds. But who wants that.

To have a comparable lifestyle to what you were used to in your home country, that type of income isn't going to cut it in Beijing. And after two or three years of "adventure" you'll be wanting to have a lifestyle comparable to the one you grew up. It's very easy to get tired of living in an apartment the looks like a jail cell.

However, if you are good at what you do and work for yourself, you could easily clear $75-$100K USD per year here if you are willing to slowly build to that over 6-18 months and work your ass off to achieve it.

There are no good paying jobs in the ESL industry.

This is false. There are jobs that pay very well but you have to be willing to search for them and have the appropriate qualifications.

Post: #535

(05-08-2016 10:32 PM)RaulValdez739 Wrote:  

(01-11-2016 11:41 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(01-05-2016 05:09 PM)tattiemasher Wrote:  I'm tempted to stop off on the way and do a CELTA somewhere cheaper like Thailand, Vietnam or Indonesia, angle for a job at the place for a year, and make the move after that. Anyone done a CELTA in places like these and know if it's easy to pick up a reasonably paid job at the end of the course?

There are no good paying jobs in the ESL industry. There are jobs that pay horribly and jobs that pay OK. The jobs that pay OK are rarely advertised and they generally recruit through their network of contacts. These jobs are rare enough that they can have their pick of the litter.

The jobs that are advertised that you can pick up when you are starting out pay terribly. They'll impose a 400% markup on what they are paying you and put 300% in their own pocket.

Getting a CELTA probably won't change this, at least in China. Even with high demand, the market is so saturated with competitors that there is an upper limit to what people will pay for English lessons. They pay teachers according to this. They do not care how good you are or how much better you are than other teachers. They will pay you no more than the losers, with or without extra qualifications.

The ESL industry is a minimum requirement industry. They aren't looking for the best teacher they can get. They have a set budget and they want they best teacher they can get while paying nothing more than standard industry salaries, which are pretty pathetic.

Here in Beijing, for a full time job, the industry standard is $36K USD annually.

$36K USD annually in Beijing is barely enough to make ends meet. And good luck paying for an emergency root canal with a dentist who actually speaks English.

Unless you live in the middle of no where, you'll be paying $7K per year to live in a tiny bedroom with two or three other people sharing the same flat. You'll pay a minimum $12K per year to have your own place that isn't substandard.

Sure, that leaves at least $24K left over, which might seem like a lot, but that has to pay for all your food, transportation costs, entertainment. You won't own a car, which is fine when you are a year or two out of university, but have fun living like a teenager when you are in your thirties. Keep in mind that just simply going out for a dinner date followed by a venue change and cocktails in Beijing is going to run you $40. If you do this with a different girl every week for a year, that's going to cost you $2000 annually. Now you are down to $22K and wonder if it's time to join Team No-Appetizers.

If you live cheaply, you could actually save a lot of cash, but you could do the same living with mom and dad for 5 years and living at McDonalds. But who wants that.

To have a comparable lifestyle to what you were used to in your home country, that type of income isn't going to cut it in Beijing. And after two or three years of "adventure" you'll be wanting to have a lifestyle comparable to the one you grew up. It's very easy to get tired of living in an apartment the looks like a jail cell.

However, if you are good at what you do and work for yourself, you could easily clear $75-$100K USD per year here if you are willing to slowly build to that over 6-18 months and work your ass off to achieve it.

There are no good paying jobs in the ESL industry.

This is false. There are jobs that pay very well but you have to be willing to search for them and have the appropriate qualifications.

Earlier when you posted in this thread, you dropped this gem:

(12-31-2015 06:14 PM)RaulValdez739 Wrote:  Is it easy to fake teaching experience on your resume when applying for overseas teaching jobs. Do recruiting agencies/companies/schools actually call to verify? Especially for Middle East positions.

Let's break this down. You're calling me misinformed, but your strategy for locking down a job is to invent a job history?

Make note of the fact that absolutely no one offered you advice after your demand for information on how to lie your way into a job.

I'll concede that there are some good paying jobs in the God-forsaken land that is the Middle East. I've talked to a lot of guys who have worked there in ESL and would not go back no matter how much money they are offered.

Japan used to pay well, but the ESL industry has suffered in the last ten years and jobs don't pay what they used to, given the high supply of potential teachers. Korea is similar and coupled with the high cost of living in Korea and Japan, you're doing OK, but not great.

SEA is cheap to live, but ESL teacher wages are accordingly low.

China pays better, but is more expensive and is a less pleasant place to live.

Europe and South America are worse than China for pay (and better for living experience).

Therefore, I'm doing potential ESL teachers a favor by telling them that the only way to make legit money in the industry is to hustle and work for yourself. Even if exceptions exist, it's not going to do 99% of guys any favours and that other 1% are the type of people that would be successful without the qualifications.

If you disagree, it's time you drop a datasheet on how you qualified your way into a good paying ESL job in a livable locale. For all we know, you have yet to lock down a good paying job in ESL and are just disagreeing with me to justify the money you dumped into qualifications.

Everyone here knows what I've done. Guys have seen my lifestyle here, so if I start exaggerating my success, I'll get called out. Why should we believe anything that you have to say? What kind of a baller lifestyle have you achieved as a "qualified" highly paid ESL teacher?

Post: #536

^^^

I agree with Suits.

International High schools/middle schools might pay well, but they are usually outside of cities built on small campuses. Not interested in living in the sticks to make 4k a month US.

IELTS full time, living in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou might be alright. Need a CELTA for that. But full-time means weekdays scoring the writing section, looking at thousands of shitty essays about the same topic 3-4 days a week. Then 3 weekends a month doing testing all day. That might make 5k a month US, but I wouldn't do it personally.

Other than that I can't think of anything that would pay more working for someone else. To make good money requires getting students yourself, teaching at your place or renting a place to teach there.

Post: #537

(05-10-2016 11:20 PM)ball dont lie Wrote:  ^^^

I agree with Suits.

International High schools/middle schools might pay well, but they are usually outside of cities built on small campuses. Not interested in living in the sticks to make 4k a month US.

These schools require Western teacher qualification and pay slightly more (and sometimes less) than similar schools in the West. But you'll have to earn that money, because you'll be expected to coach sports, attend weekly meetings, be on special committees and do parent-teacher interviews. Sure, you'll get $50-60K USD per year, but you won't have any free time to enjoy it and as I've mentioned before, $50-60K in a major Chinese city is just OK. It's not "good" money.

(05-10-2016 11:20 PM)ball dont lie Wrote:  IELTS full time, living in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou might be alright. Need a CELTA for that. But full-time means weekdays scoring the writing section, looking at thousands of shitty essays about the same topic 3-4 days a week. Then 3 weekends a month doing testing all day. That might make 5k a month US, but I wouldn't do it personally.

$5K per month still just falls into the OK money category. In BJ, SH and GZ, this is going to be just enough money to afford some basic health insurance, have a small one bedroom in a good area and fly home once a year to see family. Not even close to being "good." Just good enough.

(05-10-2016 11:20 PM)ball dont lie Wrote:  Other than that I can't think of anything that would pay more working for someone else. To make good money requires getting students yourself, teaching at your place or renting a place to teach there.

Yep, all the guys who are taking in serious money are doing this or working at a training center with no fixed salary where their income is 100% dependent on which students like you enough to schedule classes with you. I've heard of guys at training centers making $60-70K USD per year doing this, but that is sans-benefits and they work 60-70 hour weeks.

Post: #538

I strongly considered working in an international school in Bangkok (some pay 2500 US a month which is balling by regular Thai standards) but decided against it as I thought living/working in such a place would be completely different to visiting. As a qualified teacher, I'm more than happy to stack up the cash in Australia (at >$300 a day), save most of it as I'm not paying rent at the moment, and then head overseas for long periods of time, before coming back to earn more. Take advantage of the higher wages then take it somewhere where it's worth so much more. For example, 4-5 days of work at home gets me about a month anywhere in South East Asia. At the moment I have a 10 week contract which guarantees me work every day, so obviously I need to stick around for that, but beforehand I was doing relief teaching which paid approximately the same and gave me the flexibility to work for a daily rate and leave the country whenever I felt like it. Obviously you can't work as a teacher in the west without certification, but if you have a teaching degree, I think that's the best way to go.

Post: #539

(05-10-2016 11:00 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(05-08-2016 10:32 PM)RaulValdez739 Wrote:  

(01-11-2016 11:41 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(01-05-2016 05:09 PM)tattiemasher Wrote:  I'm tempted to stop off on the way and do a CELTA somewhere cheaper like Thailand, Vietnam or Indonesia, angle for a job at the place for a year, and make the move after that. Anyone done a CELTA in places like these and know if it's easy to pick up a reasonably paid job at the end of the course?

There are no good paying jobs in the ESL industry. There are jobs that pay horribly and jobs that pay OK. The jobs that pay OK are rarely advertised and they generally recruit through their network of contacts. These jobs are rare enough that they can have their pick of the litter.

The jobs that are advertised that you can pick up when you are starting out pay terribly. They'll impose a 400% markup on what they are paying you and put 300% in their own pocket.

Getting a CELTA probably won't change this, at least in China. Even with high demand, the market is so saturated with competitors that there is an upper limit to what people will pay for English lessons. They pay teachers according to this. They do not care how good you are or how much better you are than other teachers. They will pay you no more than the losers, with or without extra qualifications.

The ESL industry is a minimum requirement industry. They aren't looking for the best teacher they can get. They have a set budget and they want they best teacher they can get while paying nothing more than standard industry salaries, which are pretty pathetic.

Here in Beijing, for a full time job, the industry standard is $36K USD annually.

$36K USD annually in Beijing is barely enough to make ends meet. And good luck paying for an emergency root canal with a dentist who actually speaks English.

Unless you live in the middle of no where, you'll be paying $7K per year to live in a tiny bedroom with two or three other people sharing the same flat. You'll pay a minimum $12K per year to have your own place that isn't substandard.

Sure, that leaves at least $24K left over, which might seem like a lot, but that has to pay for all your food, transportation costs, entertainment. You won't own a car, which is fine when you are a year or two out of university, but have fun living like a teenager when you are in your thirties. Keep in mind that just simply going out for a dinner date followed by a venue change and cocktails in Beijing is going to run you $40. If you do this with a different girl every week for a year, that's going to cost you $2000 annually. Now you are down to $22K and wonder if it's time to join Team No-Appetizers.

If you live cheaply, you could actually save a lot of cash, but you could do the same living with mom and dad for 5 years and living at McDonalds. But who wants that.

To have a comparable lifestyle to what you were used to in your home country, that type of income isn't going to cut it in Beijing. And after two or three years of "adventure" you'll be wanting to have a lifestyle comparable to the one you grew up. It's very easy to get tired of living in an apartment the looks like a jail cell.

However, if you are good at what you do and work for yourself, you could easily clear $75-$100K USD per year here if you are willing to slowly build to that over 6-18 months and work your ass off to achieve it.

There are no good paying jobs in the ESL industry.

This is false. There are jobs that pay very well but you have to be willing to search for them and have the appropriate qualifications.

Earlier when you posted in this thread, you dropped this gem:

(12-31-2015 06:14 PM)RaulValdez739 Wrote:  Is it easy to fake teaching experience on your resume when applying for overseas teaching jobs. Do recruiting agencies/companies/schools actually call to verify? Especially for Middle East positions.

Let's break this down. You're calling me misinformed, but your strategy for locking down a job is to invent a job history?

I was just curious if anyone had gone that route and if they can share.

Make note of the fact that absolutely no one offered you advice after your demand for information on how to lie your way into a job.

Hmm....maybe because no one had the information to give as oppose to shaming me for asking. Just a thought.

I'll concede that there are some good paying jobs in the God-forsaken land that is the Middle East. I've talked to a lot of guys who have worked there in ESL and would not go back no matter how much money they are offered.

Bingo...thank you for recognizing this. The Middle East has the best paid positions but no one is raving about living there.

Japan used to pay well, but the ESL industry has suffered in the last ten years and jobs don't pay what they used to, given the high supply of potential teachers. Korea is similar and coupled with the high cost of living in Korea and Japan, you're doing OK, but not great.

SEA is cheap to live, but ESL teacher wages are accordingly low.

China pays better, but is more expensive and is a less pleasant place to live.

Europe and South America are worse than China for pay (and better for living experience).

Therefore, I'm doing potential ESL teachers a favor by telling them that the only way to make legit money in the industry is to hustle and work for yourself. Even if exceptions exist, it's not going to do 99% of guys any favours and that other 1% are the type of people that would be successful without the qualifications.

Yes, but tell all the facts and let them decide Suits.


If you disagree, it's time you drop a datasheet on how you qualified your way into a good paying ESL job in a livable locale. For all we know, you have yet to lock down a good paying job in ESL and are just disagreeing with me to justify the money you dumped into qualifications.

Define livable local? Everyone has different standards. I have two jobs lined up, one for China(more than industry standard) and Saudi Arabia.

Everyone here knows what I've done. Guys have seen my lifestyle here, so if I start exaggerating my success, I'll get called out. Why should we believe anything that you have to say? What kind of a baller lifestyle have you achieved as a "qualified" highly paid ESL teacher?

So...a couple guys have met you and all of mankind should take your word as the bible. Hmm...sorry buddy. Baller lifestyle? Never said that. Try to be less emotional in your responses Suits. You seem to have good intentions. If anyone has specific ESL questions, just PM me.

Post: #540

5 to 6k USD would be a decent income for most people in Toronto. I can't imagine that wouldn't be in the 90th+ percentile in China.

Not the type of money to save or become a millionaire quick but really that represents a minute percentage of society who can save and obtain wealth exceptionally quick.

Post: #541

(05-10-2016 11:31 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(05-10-2016 11:20 PM)ball dont lie Wrote:  ^^^

I agree with Suits.

International High schools/middle schools might pay well, but they are usually outside of cities built on small campuses. Not interested in living in the sticks to make 4k a month US.

These schools require Western teacher qualification and pay slightly more (and sometimes less) than similar schools in the West. But you'll have to earn that money, because you'll be expected to coach sports, attend weekly meetings, be on special committees and do parent-teacher interviews. Sure, you'll get $50-60K USD per year, but you won't have any free time to enjoy it and as I've mentioned before, $50-60K in a major Chinese city is just OK. It's not "good" money.

$5K per month still just falls into the OK money category. In BJ, SH and GZ, this is going to be just enough money to afford some basic health insurance, have a small one bedroom in a good area and fly home once a year to see family. Not even close to being "good." Just good enough.

(05-10-2016 11:20 PM)ball dont lie Wrote:  Other than that I can't think of anything that would pay more working for someone else. To make good money requires getting students yourself, teaching at your place or renting a place to teach there.

Yep, all the guys who are taking in serious money are doing this or working at a training center with no fixed salary where their income is 100% dependent on which students like you enough to schedule classes with you. I've heard of guys at training centers making $60-70K USD per year doing this, but that is sans-benefits and they work 60-70 hour weeks.

While there are some good facts here about subject teaching(Science, Math, Literature, Social Studies) in international schools, there are also a lot of holes. First off, to get a job in a third tier international school in China, you often don't need a Western qualification. You often just need a degree in the subject area. Keep in mind, this will be a Chinese "international" school with only mainland students. Pay will be around RMB 18k per month all the way up to 30k with somewhere between a RMB 2K and 6k monthly housing stipend.

I'd argue that this is plenty of money to live well off of in even Beijing, Shanghai, or Shenzhen, but then I don't like wasting money at crappy Chinese restaurants. I also tended to do all of my clothes shopping when I went back to the States, as decent quality clothes in China are ridiculously priced. Tack on somewhere between RMB 5k and 20k more per month, depending on how many part time ESL hours you want to take on, and you're way ahead of your friends back home from a financial perspective. I worked in a third tier school before getting a US teaching license and masters, took on all kinds of side jobs and saved a good amount of money in China. I now have my "fuck you" money. I wouldn't have been able to do that without working in a third tier international school. Also, that school was in the very inner ring of SH---not out in the sticks like some schools.

Now, if you are thinking about teaching in a second or first tier international school in China or an international school in most other countries, you will at least need to be in the process of getting a teaching license. There are many programs through various states that allow you to become fully certified. All it takes is some googling. Programs in Texas, Maine, and Montana come to mind off the top of my head.

Legitimate international schools in China pay pretty well, and they have generous housing allowances--- something that hasn't been brought up yet. For example, let's say you went and did a dual masters/teaching license course and then got a job at Concordia Shanghai. In this scenario, you have had to student teach (which you can do abroad in a lower tier IS), so you'd enter at step one on the following scale:
https://www.concordiashanghai.org/about-...its-salary
That would put you at RMB 356,498 per year. Not a ton of money, but in this scenario you are getting an apartment valued at RMB 12,500 per month, top flight insurance, summer airfare between contract years, a settlement allowance of USD 5000, shipping allowances, and 3 months of paid vacation. Quickly, this becomes a way to raise a lot of capital very quickly.

If you're interested putting the partying aside for a year or two and and putting your nose to the grindstone, I think you can save at least $100,000 in China in two years by working in a third tier international school and taking on part time jobs. I saved a good deal more than that. Keep in mind that this means you probably won't have a Saturday or Sunday, as you'll be freelancing in an academy on at least one of those days.

A good resource to look at if you are interested in the financial benefits of becoming a legitimate IS subject teacher is this site:
https://andrewhallam.com/2015/03/teacher...ls-abroad/

It's the site of the author of the book Millionaire Teacher, a guy named Andrew Hallam who teaches at Singapore American School. In the above link, he lays out the basics for finding an IS that allows for major savings.

In the following link, Hallam is a little more cautious. A lot of international teachers who make a lot of money, blow it all on living a luxurious lifestyle right now instead of in a few years after they've amassed significant savings. I see this right now with colleagues who have live-in maids and spend thousands of dollars on airfare for trips on four day weekends. Some of these people are in debt despite qualifying for upper middle class level salary status in my current country. Definitely worth reading:
https://andrewhallam.com/2012/05/why-int...ative-gig/

The last link corroborates what the previous poster mentioned about it being better to teach in Australia and save money. If the pension system in Western nations can survive the onslaught the boomers are going to bring to it, it probably is better to teach in the developed world. However, you'll have to deal with brattier students and more vicious legal system that places student shortcomings directly on your shoulders.

Back to Adrenaline's post on his job offer in Bangkok... A salary of $2500 per month at an IS in Thailand would put that school at third tier IS status, which, being Thailand, is still difficult to get into. An offer like this also should have included a decent housing stipend (probably something like THB 15,000 for a third tier IS in Bangkok. A place like International School of Bangkok is going to pay somewhere around $5000-$6000 per month with similar benefits to the example of Concordia above. The thing is, don't count on getting a job at ISB without 10 years' experience or a degree in Physics (high demand). The International School of Bangkok is widely regarded as one of the premier positions in all of international teaching.

There are of course other places to teach abroad that pay well, like oil rich nations in Africa (Angola comes to mind) and the ME, but a lot of people do this long-term for the lifestyle (decent pay, housing paid, long vacations, exotic locales). Right now, I'm at an IS in Latin Am. I don't get paid nearly as much as in China, but I still save around $2300 per month. I also have an enormous house (4br, 3 ba with an additional maid's quarters) in a gated community all paid for by the school. To get a job like this, you would have to be certified and have some experience, but there are opportunities out there.

To recap: If you don't have certification but are interested in this path, I would suggest trying it out in a third tier school in China for a year or two, saving some money, and then applying to a certification program.

Post: #542

^^^^^

jdreise knows what he is talking about. Check out some of his previous posts.

/thread-21674.html

The above post is about: Online Resources For Finding Apartments, Work, Study, Airline Tickets, ETC., Abroad

Post: #543

Some more thoughts:

I've been in China 11 years now and had several different stages of life. Learning Chinese for a while and traveling. Serious relationship, spending time with the girl's family and earning some money (though eventually I broke up with her and dodged a huge bullet). Then full time earning, maxing out number of hours worked per week with a little time each week to meet/bang a LTR type girl.

One issue not brought up is how hard it is to go all in and the opportunity cost involved. 5-6 years ago I thought about going back to the US, getting my teaching license on an accelerated program, doing the student teaching, maybe teaching a year or two in Northern Montana or Minnesota on a program that pays a high salary to get teachers to go there, then going to an international school in East Asia.

At the time I was saving 20-30k USD working 10 months a year, spending a month in the USA each year and a month in SEA for the sun come winter time. It was a good life. I was working hard those 10 months, but not insane. Jdreise above mentions that a person can make a lot of money but it means 8-10 hours a day, 7 days a week. No weekends. I did that for a year and my max came close to saving 40k USD working 10 months that year (I like to take time off). Those are possible without a teaching license, just hard work and networking, doing a good job.

But when I thought about taking off two years for the program and student teaching (plus my major is in history and I don't have a minor, so perhaps even a 3rd year to get another teachable subject), that meant I would lose about on 60k USD for the 2 years lost, plus the cost of the program which is about 15k USD plus rent/food for the first year alone. The lost money could get to the 100k USD, which I simply couldn't pull the trigger on. I looked at the numbers and at least for me 100k USD is a lot of money. I already saved a lot and thought, with another 100k USD or if I continue a few years, Id have several time that, that is real fuck you money.

The problem is that it was very shortsighted. 200-300k USD really isn't that much money. Sadly. Not if a person wants a family.

So even though Im in my mid-30s Ive considered taking that path, getting my teaching license and possibly a 1 year graduate degree in teaching, they are complete bullshit pieces of paper, but that's the game.

The main issue that I've run into in recent years is that there are so damn many guys coming over since they also got a degree in something not marketable and are flooding the teaching market. So getting something like a teaching license does in fact have a huge return because its get a person OUT of that market and into something much more exclusive. A guy with his head put on straight, looks good, does good work, games his boss a little, can do very well.

On another note, Jdreise talked about 3rd tier Chinese style international schools with all Chinese students. They are really hit or miss. Sometimes the salary is downright laughable. I think 14k a month for 9-5 Monday to Friday, teaching kids that don't want to be there, in English, teaching academic writing or 'The Catcher in the Rye' is not a fun life. Plus the 2k housing allowance, but a nice apartment is 4k, plus utilities. Its just a shitty beginning. But I do have a friend that did it for a year and then got a much better job.

Post: #544

Ball, you and Suits are the forum's resident experts on ESL, and I agree with pretty much everything you say from a subjective standpoint. What I mean by that is, all of the scenarios you explain are reality for some people teaching abroad, especially in China.

However, just because one of us explains the realities of teaching in a certain way, doesn't mean that's reality for everyone. In my opinion, you guys seem to hit on more of the negatives of the situation, of which there are many and the negatives you bring up are real. I'll leave you guys to do that, while I'll touch on some of the positives. Again, I'm not negating anything you're saying, but just to provide a counterpoint I'm going to provide some other examples/opinions on the potential realities of this profession.

(05-12-2016 01:47 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  One issue not brought up is how hard it is to go all in and the opportunity cost involved. 5-6 years ago I thought about going back to the US, getting my teaching license on an accelerated program, doing the student teaching, maybe teaching a year or two in Northern Montana or Minnesota on a program that pays a high salary to get teachers to go there, then going to an international school in East Asia.

At the time I was saving 20-30k USD working 10 months a year, spending a month in the USA each year and a month in SEA for the sun come winter time. It was a good life. I was working hard those 10 months, but not insane. Jdreise above mentions that a person can make a lot of money but it means 8-10 hours a day, 7 days a week. No weekends. I did that for a year and my max came close to saving 40k USD working 10 months that year (I like to take time off). Those are possible without a teaching license, just hard work and networking, doing a good job.

But when I thought about taking off two years for the program and student teaching (plus my major is in history and I don't have a minor, so perhaps even a 3rd year to get another teachable subject), that meant I would lose about on 60k USD for the 2 years lost, plus the cost of the program which is about 15k USD plus rent/food for the first year alone. The lost money could get to the 100k USD, which I simply couldn't pull the trigger on. I looked at the numbers and at least for me 100k USD is a lot of money. I already saved a lot and thought, with another 100k USD or if I continue a few years, Id have several time that, that is real fuck you money.

All of this is and could be a real situation for someone in this line of work. There is an opportunity cost to working less and paying $10,000 to $15,000 for a degree. However, there are options out there to make this more palatable in the short term. There are online certification and masters programs out there. I did one. I also did it from abroad at a school that paid all of the perks that are normal for a third or second tier IS. What that meant was every couple of months I would have to pay tuition, which reduced my savings during that period. I also had to take on fewer part-time hours in order to do the actual coursework(10-15 hours per week, mostly writing essays about pedagogy). At the moment, I probably have $30k less than I would have had I just continued doing what I was doing. However, I'll easily make that $30k back over the next three years. I got a 5k bump on the salary scale for completing the masters. I also would not have landed my current job without having done that program.

There is opportunity cost, but there are also opportunities.

(05-12-2016 01:47 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  The problem is that it was very shortsighted. 200-300k USD really isn't that much money. Sadly. Not if a person wants a family.

You didn't expand on this point, but it caught my eye. Here are my thoughts:
The 200k to 300k in cash you could save over the course of several years of hustling in ESL should not be viewed as the lump sum end game. That money is your investment capital. You should be investing it in mutual funds and/or cash-flow rental real estate so that it becomes the vehicle for greater wealth accumulation. If you have that much invested in assets that are giving you a return, you are waaayyy way ahead of your peers busting their asses 50 hours a week at an office job in North America for $60k per year and two weeks of PTO. I just read an article the other day where the average 401k had something like only $5000 in it. We just had a thread on this forum that revealed something like half of all Americans couldn't come up with $400 dollars in an emergency. If you have $200k in cash/stock by the end of 4 or 5 years in China, you have nothing to worry about. You have plenty to start a family, especially in a developing country.

This has been posted other places in the forum, but it's a great resource for how to look at wealth accumulation and actually need. It's Mr. Money Mustache's 4% rule:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/2...etirement/

(05-12-2016 01:47 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  So even though Im in my mid-30s Ive considered taking that path, getting my teaching license and possibly a 1 year graduate degree in teaching, they are complete bullshit pieces of paper, but that's the game.

Yes and no. They are bullshit in that everything you need to know about running a classroom, you learn through experience. They are legit in that you learn lots about instructional strategies and how children learn. I am, without a doubt, a better teacher after having gone through the process. They are also a process for weeding out most of the people who are not committed to the line of work. Serious question: Who would you rather have teaching your kid? I know my answer.

In terms of what a license and masters will do for your career prospects, they are absolutely crucial. First of all, ask yourself this: Would you like to have the option to return to North America after teaching abroad and work in something other than a dead-end-poor-benefits job? A license and masters will do that for you. Never mind the options they provide for gaining employment in top tier international schools, a license will provide a seem less path back to working in your home country.

Of course you could always create a company or work for yourself. In those cases, the license and masters are useless to you. Really, the license and masters are just insurance. I'm assured of always being able to find a job that pays at least 50k plus great benefits plus 3 months of PTO per year. Not bad insurance for a lump sum of $15k and two years of late nights writing papers on pedagogy and classroom management strategies.

Last point on this topic relates to how having the license will help your future family. The international school I currently work in has a graduating class of under 200. Of that number, 11 are headed to Ivy League schools. A great deal of others are headed to other highly ranked universities. While the forum is largely split on the value of higher education, one can look at this situation like this: If you teach in one of these schools, your children will get free tuition to an elite academic institution. They'll be classmates with the sons and daughters of ambassadors, international business people, and the people who run whatever country you're in. You can't assign a monetary figure to this.

(05-12-2016 01:47 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  The main issue that I've run into in recent years is that there are so damn many guys coming over since they also got a degree in something not marketable and are flooding the teaching market. So getting something like a teaching license does in fact have a huge return because its get a person OUT of that market and into something much more exclusive. A guy with his head put on straight, looks good, does good work, games his boss a little, can do very well.

You're right, here. The license puts you into another echelon. You immediately have a plethora of better options internationally. You also have options at home. This is also an issue of the educational certification ladder where everyone is continuously being pushed to step up onto the next rung. Eventually, like in South Korea, you're going to need more than a Bachelors of __________ to get a decent job, even in China or Taiwan. Most of the world is already like this.

(05-12-2016 01:47 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  On another note, Jdreise talked about 3rd tier Chinese style international schools with all Chinese students. They are really hit or miss. Sometimes the salary is downright laughable. I think 14k a month for 9-5 Monday to Friday, teaching kids that don't want to be there, in English, teaching academic writing or 'The Catcher in the Rye' is not a fun life. Plus the 2k housing allowance, but a nice apartment is 4k, plus utilities. Its just a shitty beginning. But I do have a friend that did it for a year and then got a much better job.

This is where experience comes in. Experience not just in teaching, but also interviewing for a job and doing research on potential employment options. There are these "third tier international school" jobs out there paying RMB 12-14k per month for 20 to 25 forty minute classes per week. Obviously there are people who take those jobs. Unless you have an obvious personality, intellectual, or bodily defect, DO NOT TAKE ONE OF THOSE JOBS. There are better options. You shouldn't consider a job at one of these third rate mainland Chinese schools unless they're going to give you at least RMB 18k per month, at least RMB 2 or 3k for a housing stipend, and no more than 20 teaching periods per week. No reason to work in a sweat shop, even though some idiots do.

About the kids not wanting to be there part: This is easy to control if you have some experience. Give them group work. Have them make a skit about the relevant content and video it on their smartphones. Show the videos next class to everyone and they'll all have a good time laughing about how silly they look on the overhead projector. Have them design posters with the academic information so that they can present it or you can post it around the class like a museum exhibit. Relate it to something they like doing. Do not try to lecture and be the center of attention in the classroom. Give them activities where they are central to their learning, not you. Then, sit at your desk and drink coffee.

In my opinion, it's a much better career than working in some office park in a boring suburb and making $60-70k before taxes and only 2 weeks of paid time off.

Post: #545

(05-14-2016 11:47 AM)jdreise Wrote:  In my opinion, you guys seem to hit on more of the negatives of the situation, of which there are many and the negatives you bring up are real.

I focus on the negatives, because most of the ESL-teachers to be are overly enthusiastic and in my experience here, most people have a negative experience here.

I'm personally doing well, but that's because I've put the extra effort into creating a teaching method (and accompanying resources) the puts me far ahead of the competition.

Even then, I have to hustle to make decent cash.

My concern is that people will arrive expecting a wonderful cultural experience (as they usually do) and end up being very disappointed.

I hope that by offering a more negative perspective, I'll be able to temper some of the unjustified optimism.

(05-14-2016 11:47 AM)jdreise Wrote:  The 200k to 300k in cash you could save over the course of several years of hustling in ESL should not be viewed as the lump sum end game. That money is your investment capital. You should be investing it in mutual funds and/or cash-flow rental real estate so that it becomes the vehicle for greater wealth accumulation. If you have that much invested in assets that are giving you a return, you are waaayyy way ahead of your peers busting their asses 50 hours a week at an office job in North America for $60k per year and two weeks of PTO.

This is really where it is at. No one is going to get rich teaching, no matter what certifications they have or where they teach. Not going to happen.

You aren't going to get rich doing an office job either.

Unless you are the CEO of a large company or a doctor with all his debts paid or a petroleum engineer before the oil crash, you aren't going to get rich working for other people.

The only real money is in running your own business. Even with good investments, a 20% return is going to be partly knocked out by inflation and tax to a degree where you only win if you can invest for a long enough period to gain compounding earnings. And no one likes a waiting game.

Your goal should be to create a business that doubles or triples your initial cash fund.

Teaching English in Asia isn't going to make you rich, but you can absolutely put away enough money to fund other ventures with more potential.

That's what I'm working on now. For more than a year now, all my spare cash has gone into developing products that I believe will give me a massive return on the original investment.

My future is definitely not in teaching.

Post: #546

What's better for the international school route, a masters in tefl or a US teaching license from an online course?

Post: #547

(05-14-2016 07:53 PM)AWright Wrote:  What's better for the international school route, a masters in tefl or a US teaching license from an online course?

The US teaching license. It's a requirement at any Tier 1, 2, and even most Tier 3 International Schools. Any accredited IS, basically. It wouldn't matter if you have a Ph. D. in linguistics and 20 years of TEFL experience, if you don't have a teaching license.

Post: #548

delete

Post: #549

Ball dont lie,
Your PM is disabled. I can't respond to your message.

Post: #550

My question is, considering the discriminatory nature of couuntries like China, where even White men get dragged through shit, how does a Black man play this game with the intention of coming out ahead, generally speaking? Any minorities working abroad, whether it's in China or not? I don't have any prospects in America, nor do I have any formal education. I simply seek to use TEFL as a springboard to help me be able to at least live on my own on 20 hour weeks while the rest of my time I continue to build my body and business. I don't care about the women nor nightlife. I'm focused on creating independence.

That said, connections and other knowledge are important so can anyone give me any advice, especially as it pertains to minorities since we know we can't play the game the same way?